Where does the universe expand into?

leafman91 · 29th October 2009, 12:23 PM

According to the Big Bang theory at current, it all starts off with a singularity, surrounded by not even nothing. All there is and isn't is the singularity. There is no 'where', and no 'nowhere'. It is physically impossible for either of them to exist. Then the universe expanded one day. Why? Where to? What is meant by saying the singularity expands, when it is already explained that there is no 'where' for the singularity to expand to? How do you fit all of everything in the universe into a point that's infinitely small? Where is the universe expanding into now?
They say it isn't the atoms that grow larger, it is the actual space the atoms occupy that grow larger. ~~How does nothing expand?~~Where does nothing expand to?

Starthinker · 29th October 2009, 12:35 PM

It expands into a size 44.

Undesired Walrus · 29th October 2009, 12:39 PM

I'm sure you will get many intelligent, exciting, and incomprehensible answers, but 'I don't know' is the most exciting answer, to me.

Cathoskeptic · 29th October 2009, 12:49 PM

You can find the answer at the Alamo. In the basement.

Ziggurat · 29th October 2009, 12:52 PM

A similar question was asked very recently by someone else. My response to that post might be useful here too.

Aitch · 29th October 2009, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Starthinker

It expands into a size 44.

Cup size?

Perpetual Student · 29th October 2009, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

A similar question was asked very recently by someone else. My response to that post might be useful here too.

That's a fascinating question and an interesting response. Ultimately, all we really have are mathematical models of reality, but the question seems to have a haunting need (for me) to be addressed in a manner that does not seem possible -- like "what is the ultimate reality of an electron?"

sol invictus · 29th October 2009, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

A similar question was asked very recently by someone else. My response to that post might be useful here too.

Regarding your post, it's worth pointing out that one of the standard possibilities for cosmology is an open universe. Such a space cannot be embedded in a space of one higher dimension (you need more, I think at least two, but maybe more). So adding extra dimensions can make the extrinsic geometry far more complicated and hard to visualize than the intrinsic geometry.

To respond to the OP, first off it's better not to "start" with the singularity. Start (in your mind) with the universe at a later time, say today, and then run it forwards and backwards in time and see what happens to it. Now, what is it expanding into? Well, mathematically the answer is as Zig says - it's not necessary for there to be anything outside for it to expand into. It can be the whole space and still expand.

Here's an example you may be able to picture - an infinite 2D plane covered with dots. The dots are uniformly distributed in a square lattice, one inch apart. As time passes, the separation between every given pair of points increases as if the plane is stretching out in all directions, but doing so everywhere across its entire infinite surface. So there you go - that's an expanding 2D space with no need for anything more than 2D (i.e. nothing for it to expand into).

29th October 2009, 12:23 PM	#1
leafman91 Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: England.Weather isn't great in England Posts: 371	Where does the universe expand into? According to the Big Bang theory at current, it all starts off with a singularity, surrounded by not even nothing. All there is and isn't is the singularity. There is no 'where', and no 'nowhere'. It is physically impossible for either of them to exist. Then the universe expanded one day. Why? Where to? What is meant by saying the singularity expands, when it is already explained that there is no 'where' for the singularity to expand to? How do you fit all of everything in the universe into a point that's infinitely small? Where is the universe expanding into now? They say it isn't the atoms that grow larger, it is the actual space the atoms occupy that grow larger. ~~How does nothing expand?~~Where does nothing expand to?
	__________________ 'Fish pay attention to the moon?'- The Chemical Brothers

29th October 2009, 12:35 PM	#2
Starthinker Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 5,014	It expands into a size 44.
	__________________ \|¦¦\|¦ \|¦\|\|\|\|¦\|\|\|¦\|\|¦¦\|¦\|\|\|\|\|\|\|¦\|¦¦¦¦\|¦¦¦¦\|\|¦\|¦\|¦¦\|¦ \|¦¦\|¦ He who doubts victory has already lost the battle. Below the navel there is neither religion nor truth.

29th October 2009, 12:39 PM	#3
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,890	I'm sure you will get many intelligent, exciting, and incomprehensible answers, but 'I don't know' is the most exciting answer, to me.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

29th October 2009, 12:52 PM	#5
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,199	A similar question was asked very recently by someone else. My response to that post might be useful here too.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

29th October 2009, 01:31 PM	#7
Perpetual Student Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,707	Originally Posted by Ziggurat A similar question was asked very recently by someone else. My response to that post might be useful here too. That's a fascinating question and an interesting response. Ultimately, all we really have are mathematical models of reality, but the question seems to have a haunting need (for me) to be addressed in a manner that does not seem possible -- like "what is the ultimate reality of an electron?"
	__________________ _{It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman} ξ

29th October 2009, 12:49 PM	#4
Cathoskeptic Student Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: My Mom and Dad's basement Posts: 39	You can find the answer at the Alamo. In the basement.

29th October 2009, 01:26 PM	#6
Aitch Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: StAines Posts: 2,731	Originally Posted by Starthinker It expands into a size 44. Cup size?

29th October 2009, 01:55 PM	#8
sol invictus Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Nova Roma Posts: 8,419	Originally Posted by Ziggurat A similar question was asked very recently by someone else. My response to that post might be useful here too. Regarding your post, it's worth pointing out that one of the standard possibilities for cosmology is an open universe. Such a space cannot be embedded in a space of one higher dimension (you need more, I think at least two, but maybe more). So adding extra dimensions can make the extrinsic geometry far more complicated and hard to visualize than the intrinsic geometry. To respond to the OP, first off it's better not to "start" with the singularity. Start (in your mind) with the universe at a later time, say today, and then run it forwards and backwards in time and see what happens to it. Now, what is it expanding into? Well, mathematically the answer is as Zig says - it's not necessary for there to be anything outside for it to expand into. It can be the whole space and still expand. Here's an example you may be able to picture - an infinite 2D plane covered with dots. The dots are uniformly distributed in a square lattice, one inch apart. As time passes, the separation between every given pair of points increases as if the plane is stretching out in all directions, but doing so everywhere across its entire infinite surface. So there you go - that's an expanding 2D space with no need for anything more than 2D (i.e. nothing for it to expand into).