Clive James on scepticism

zooterkin · 29th October 2009, 05:22 PM

I only just noticed that the BBC podcast, Point of View, has switched from David Attenborough to Clive James. His first is on Scepticism, but hurry as it's only available for another day or so. http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/pov

dlorde · 29th October 2009, 05:24 PM

Thanks for that, zooterkin

SusanB-M1 · 30th October 2009, 01:54 AM

Yes, it was good, wasn't it. I started listening by chance but quickly paid much closer attention.

lionking · 30th October 2009, 02:22 AM

A great Aussie, Clive. I love his work.

Beerina · 31st October 2009, 12:53 PM

Ah, Saturday Night Clive!

My favorite show to watch on BBC when I was living in the NL.

I recall him mocking US home shopping channels. He pretty much just played some normal ones, and the audiences burst out laughing all over the place from the hokey, transparent sales pitches.

12 years later when I went back, actual infomercials were all over the place. They had spread.

I'm sorry.

shandyjan · 31st October 2009, 01:50 PM

I think its changed, it has him on the postal strike, and labour now. Have I missed it? I always liked his dry humour, havnt seen him for a while.

zooterkin · 2nd November 2009, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by shandyjan

I think its changed, it has him on the postal strike, and labour now. Have I missed it? I always liked his dry humour, havnt seen him for a while.

Yes, as I said, it was only up for another day or so after I posted. The podcast is the latest episode of a weekly programme.

You can hear the section that caused a lot of comments, which was about global warming, in the latest podcast of Feedback, about halfway through. I think that some may take his comments as being in support of AGW deniers, but I think it was more carefully worded than that.

Ah, I've just found that a written version of the episode is online here.

Originally Posted by Clive James

In fact the number of scientists who voice scepticism has lately been increasing. But there were always some, and that's the only thing I know about the subject. I know next to nothing about climate science. All I know is that many of the commentators in newspapers who are busy predicting catastrophe don't know much about it either, because they keep saying that the science is settled and it isn't.

Speaking as one who lives at sea level, I don't relish the prospect of my granddaughter spending her life on a raft 30 feet above where she now plays in the garden, but I still can't see that there is a scientific consensus. There are those for, and those against. Either side might well be right, but I think that if you have a division on that scale, you can't call it a consensus.

gtc · 2nd November 2009, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

YesI think that some may take his comments as being in support of AGW deniers, but I think it was more carefully worded than that.

No. He was just denouncing the people who refer to skeptics as AGW deniers.

Quote:

It's a nasty word to be called, denialist, because it calls up the spectacle of a fanatic denying the Holocaust. In my homeland, Australia, there are some prominent intellectuals who are quite ready to say that any sceptic about man-made global warming is doing even worse than denying the Holocaust, because this time the whole of the human race stands to be obliterated.
Really they should know better, because the two events are not remotely comparable. The Holocaust actually happened. The destruction of the earth by man-made global warming hasn't happened yet, and there are plenty of highly qualified scientists ready to say that the whole idea is a case of too many of their colleagues relying on models provided by the same computers that can't even predict what will happen to the weather next week.

John Jackson · 2nd November 2009, 05:37 AM

Clive James stated "I know next to nothing about climate science" and then adopted the position of non-belief and equated that with skepticism.

That's not my understanding of what skepticism is!

I think we need to be aware of the difference between being sceptical (doubtful) and skepticism (the process of inquiry) otherwise we're in danger of allowing arguments like James's as being perceived as representing what skepticism is all about when it's quite the opposite.

His argument/reasoning is appallingly bad and merely advocates the position of doubt/non-acceptance/non-belief for non-smart reasons. That is not skepticism.

RonPrice · 4th November 2009, 05:14 AM

Breach of rule 4 removed.

Posted By:Cuddles

RonPrice · 5th December 2009, 09:58 PM

I would like to say a few things about Clive James’ new book Cultural Amnesia. James’s book is prompted, to some extent, by the suspicion that a new age of barbarism is indeed descending. He has lots of company in this view. My recent memoir(5 volumes in 2500 pages) is also prompted by a similar intuition. But like the barbarism of the late Roman Empire in the West in the second and third century A.D., I take the view that a new religion is growing in our midst. Like Christianity which crept, half-hidden, along the foundations and against the background of an Augustan empire, the Baha’i Faith seems, thusfar, too insignificant to be noticed by history for it, too, is growing slowly, obscurely, insensibly in our modern and postmodern world.

I have removed most of this post for rule 4. While it appears that it is a mixture of his own work and word-for-word quotes from this article, It must be clearly labeled when you are using words that are not your own.

Posted By:Tricky

Limbo · 6th December 2009, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by John Jackson

Clive James stated "I know next to nothing about climate science" and then adopted the position of non-belief and equated that with skepticism.

That's not my understanding of what skepticism is!

I think we need to be aware of the difference between being sceptical (doubtful) and skepticism (the process of inquiry) otherwise we're in danger of allowing arguments like James's as being perceived as representing what skepticism is all about when it's quite the opposite.

His argument/reasoning is appallingly bad and merely advocates the position of doubt/non-acceptance/non-belief for non-smart reasons. That is not skepticism.

If it's not skepticism, then what is it?

TheDaver · 6th December 2009, 09:14 AM

Sounds like real scepticism to me.

I prefer to call what we do here “critical thinking” or “objective thinking” – for most people, “scepticism” seems to have negative connotations.

29th October 2009, 05:22 PM	#1
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 7,028	Clive James on scepticism I only just noticed that the BBC podcast, Point of View, has switched from David Attenborough to Clive James. His first is on Scepticism, but hurry as it's only available for another day or so. http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/pov
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell I'd eat the arse out of a dead mole if it offered a fighting chance.Terry Pratchett The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.Thomas Jefferson

29th October 2009, 05:24 PM	#2
dlorde Muse Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 613	Thanks for that, zooterkin
dlorde Muse Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 613

30th October 2009, 01:54 AM	#3
SusanB-M1 Incurable Optimist Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Almost in the New Forest, Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,506	Yes, it was good, wasn't it. I started listening by chance but quickly paid much closer attention.
	__________________ I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

30th October 2009, 02:22 AM	#4
lionking Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 12,135	A great Aussie, Clive. I love his work.
	__________________ You must believe in free will; there is no choice. Isaac Bashevis Singer

31st October 2009, 12:53 PM	#5
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 14,373	Ah, Saturday Night Clive! My favorite show to watch on BBC when I was living in the NL. I recall him mocking US home shopping channels. He pretty much just played some normal ones, and the audiences burst out laughing all over the place from the hokey, transparent sales pitches. 12 years later when I went back, actual infomercials were all over the place. They had spread. I'm sorry.
	__________________ Reid Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman, in *A Day Like Any Other* The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

31st October 2009, 01:50 PM	#6
shandyjan Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 1,013	I think its changed, it has him on the postal strike, and labour now. Have I missed it? I always liked his dry humour, havnt seen him for a while.
	__________________ Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth. ~Ludwig Börne

2nd November 2009, 12:57 AM	#7
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 7,028	Originally Posted by shandyjan I think its changed, it has him on the postal strike, and labour now. Have I missed it? I always liked his dry humour, havnt seen him for a while. Yes, as I said, it was only up for another day or so after I posted. The podcast is the latest episode of a weekly programme. You can hear the section that caused a lot of comments, which was about global warming, in the latest podcast of Feedback, about halfway through. I think that some may take his comments as being in support of AGW deniers, but I think it was more carefully worded than that. Ah, I've just found that a written version of the episode is online here. Originally Posted by Clive James In fact the number of scientists who voice scepticism has lately been increasing. But there were always some, and that's the only thing I know about the subject. I know next to nothing about climate science. All I know is that many of the commentators in newspapers who are busy predicting catastrophe don't know much about it either, because they keep saying that the science is settled and it isn't. Speaking as one who lives at sea level, I don't relish the prospect of my granddaughter spending her life on a raft 30 feet above where she now plays in the garden, but I still can't see that there is a scientific consensus. There are those for, and those against. Either side might well be right, but I think that if you have a division on that scale, you can't call it a consensus.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell I'd eat the arse out of a dead mole if it offered a fighting chance.Terry Pratchett The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.Thomas Jefferson

2nd November 2009, 01:06 AM	#8
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,109	Originally Posted by zooterkin YesI think that some may take his comments as being in support of AGW deniers, but I think it was more carefully worded than that. No. He was just denouncing the people who refer to skeptics as AGW deniers. Quote: It's a nasty word to be called, denialist, because it calls up the spectacle of a fanatic denying the Holocaust. In my homeland, Australia, there are some prominent intellectuals who are quite ready to say that any sceptic about man-made global warming is doing even worse than denying the Holocaust, because this time the whole of the human race stands to be obliterated. Really they should know better, because the two events are not remotely comparable. The Holocaust actually happened. The destruction of the earth by man-made global warming hasn't happened yet, and there are plenty of highly qualified scientists ready to say that the whole idea is a case of too many of their colleagues relying on models provided by the same computers that can't even predict what will happen to the weather next week.
	__________________

2nd November 2009, 05:37 AM	#9
John Jackson Muse Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 624	Clive James stated "I know next to nothing about climate science" and then adopted the position of non-belief and equated that with skepticism. That's not my understanding of what skepticism is! I think we need to be aware of the difference between being sceptical (doubtful) and skepticism (the process of inquiry) otherwise we're in danger of allowing arguments like James's as being perceived as representing what skepticism is all about when it's quite the opposite. His argument/reasoning is appallingly bad and merely advocates the position of doubt/non-acceptance/non-belief for non-smart reasons. That is not skepticism.
John Jackson Muse Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 624	__________________ UK-Skeptics

6th December 2009, 07:21 AM	#12
Limbo Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,223	Originally Posted by John Jackson Clive James stated "I know next to nothing about climate science" and then adopted the position of non-belief and equated that with skepticism. That's not my understanding of what skepticism is! I think we need to be aware of the difference between being sceptical (doubtful) and skepticism (the process of inquiry) otherwise we're in danger of allowing arguments like James's as being perceived as representing what skepticism is all about when it's quite the opposite. His argument/reasoning is appallingly bad and merely advocates the position of doubt/non-acceptance/non-belief for non-smart reasons. That is not skepticism. If it's not skepticism, then what is it?
Limbo Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,223	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

6th December 2009, 09:14 AM	#13
TheDaver hairy farting brute Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Montréal Posts: 825	Sounds like real scepticism to me. I prefer to call what we do here “critical thinking” or “objective thinking” – for most people, “scepticism” seems to have negative connotations.
	__________________ >>>--------------->