Tarot cards, they are AMAZING!

[MrErisian]

I would be interested to hear some skeptical thoughts on Tarot cards. I have recently been playing about with a pack doing readings for friends and family. I'm stunned at how accurate they are. It's incredible!

We've had some very impressive predictions, for example I was told I'd be offered two jobs at once over a month or so ago and sure enough, I was. This happened in a recession as well.

I was told my friend was looking to move house, he was.

I got told my sister wouldn't be impressed by the bloke she went on a blind date with. She wasn't.

It's VERY strange but my rational mind knows there must be an explanation which goes beyond coincidence. What is it? How do tarot cards work their 'magic'?

PS - Hello! My first post on here after a fair bit of lurking. I was told about this forum on the David Icke website where I post under the same username.

[devnull]

Im not sure how it works, but my cards tell me that one of your friends is having some sort of health issue..... am I right?

[fullflavormenthol]

I have drawn the Magus...you have discovered something important recently? I am also seeing a man...he...he is saying "the money". Don't worry about the money. Does this mean anything to you?

[Third Eye Open]

mrErisian. I'm curious what you think the mechanism is for how the cards work? I know I had my ideas of how it worked when I was into the tarot, I'm curious how you think it works.

[Snixtor]

What we have above are two examples of what is called "cold reading", and this is a key element in all psychics predictions, readings, etc, including tarot cards.

You're finding correlation with vague and general pieces of information.

Something says "travel", somebody you know is planning on moving? traveling? a holiday? recently moved? about to move? One of them will tweak. The Tarot didn't say "your friend Jeremy is considering moving from his current residence in Michigan to an apartment in New York", it simply said "travel". It is your own mind that correlates that to Jezza's interstate journey.

[athon]

Hi Mr. Erisian. Welcome to the forums. Let's see if we can't clear up some things for you.

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I would be interested to hear some skeptical thoughts on Tarot cards. I have recently been playing about with a pack doing readings for friends and family. I'm stunned at how accurate they are. It's incredible!

A lot of seemingly paranormal stuff does seem incredible. That's pretty much why people put so much faith into it - it seems impossible to not believe in it.

Quote:

It's VERY strange but my rational mind knows there must be an explanation which goes beyond coincidence. What is it? How do tarot cards work their 'magic'?

There are a few tricks of the brain at work here. Before I address them, however, it pays to understand why it's so convincing.

Our brains evolved to help us survive. They do this by allowing us to work together as a social group to find patterns to exploit in the world around us. In other words, our brains did not evolve to write operas, make ravioli, or deduce mathematical models of nature. That is an accidental and useful side-effect of how our brains function.

However, to do what it does, your brain needs to cut some corners. It's an incredibly energy-hungry meat machine, so to get the most out of its processing it gambles. A lot. Most of your vision, for example, is your brain making an educated guess, which is why optical illusions are so damn funky.

So, these short cuts work the vast majority of the time, and save a lot of time and effort. In eons past, it allowed us to do what organisms do best - make lots of babies. It didn't matter if it also meant we believed that the mountain that overlooked our home has feelings, that we could dance and make it rain or that we could predict the future by looking at animal's entrails. The same pattern-making software in our heads, so to speak, that allowed us to do these things also allowed us to find the best food, avoid snakes and sympathise with our loved ones.

Now, getting to your question;

Our brains are incredibly selective. It's important for them to be this way - the amount of information coming into them every moment of every day is vast. So it constantly matches it with something - anything - and if it can't, it discards it as useless. And you forget it.

Yet, sometimes it finds something that could be significant. The upside is that this is an efficient way of finding needles in a haystack of information. The downside is that there is no way of knowing if it really is a needle, or just another bit of hay. Some patterns are useless.

With your tarot card sessions, I guarantee there were plenty of instances where things were said that never eventuated. You forgot them, because, well, they didn't match anything. It's called 'counting the hits and missing the misses'. Out of a hundred random statements, statistically there are probably going to be a few that simply, accidentally, ring true. Why? Same reason some people win the lottery. With enough spins of the wheel, random events will coincide.

So we are more or less forced by our brains to seize on those coincidences and see them as significant. Even if they aren't. Sure, it seems amazing, but that's the beauty of it. Add to that the fact that we're pretty poor at evaluating probability, and we all tend to think of our lives as being more unique than they really are, and you can start to see our brain isn't really good at making judgements of chance.

Secondly, memory isn't what you think it is. We adjust our memories all the time. It's one of the best tricks our brain has - it is always adjusting what we think we know. Why? Because it's evolved to deal with the possibility of having made a mistake. A poorly formed memory is useless, so with more experience we can modify the memory and learn more from it. The downside, again, is that we have no way of knowing really what happened.

For instance, imagine if somebody had referred to an aunt dying. In retrospect, your brain could very easily modify this to refer to a grandmother, or mother, or friend of the family. This subtle alteration is incredibly powerful - you'll swear on your mother's grave you heard correctly. And, for all purposes, you would think that. You're not lying, but your brain did modify things slightly.

Lastly, if you like the idea of tarot working, you'll read deeper into the language being employed to describe the events and assume more than what is really being said.

There are a number of other shortcuts employed by your cognitive machinery that lead you to think something amazing as happened. However, there are two possibilities - one is that it is indeed paranormal, and I'm wrong about your brain playing tricks. The other possibility is that I'm correct.

Interestingly, when you start to act with this in mind (recording sessions and listening later, for example), the magic disappears. The paranormal always falls apart when it is tested, leaving us with nothing but our energy-efficient and yet fallible brains.

Before you think this is a rather disappointing conclusion, just think - this same brain is also capable of turning onto itself and recognising it is able to make mistakes, and learn from it. That, in itself, is truly magic.

Athon

[MrErisian]

Originally Posted by devnull

Im not sure how it works, but my cards tell me that one of your friends is having some sort of health issue..... am I right?

No, fortunately not!

Originally Posted by Third Eye Open

mrErisian. I'm curious what you think the mechanism is for how the cards work?

I'm really not sure. I guess step one is really proving they do. They seem to but I'm not quite sure how you'd rationally assert that. One of the things I was hoping to find here was maybe a few simple but fair tests that might suggest something more than just me being gullible!

As far as I can make out the suggestions regarding how they might 'work' run something like this:

Originally Posted by Snixtor

"cold reading", [...]

You're finding correlation with vague and general pieces of information.

Certainly that might fit but they do seem pretty spot on. For example there's none of this ... you're going on a journey - wooo! Type stuff. I dunno. The vague things ARE vague but not stupidly vague. They could be flat out wrong, I think.

Originally Posted by athon

With your tarot card sessions, I guarantee there were plenty of instances where things were said that never eventuated. You forgot them, because, well, they didn't match anything. It's called 'counting the hits and missing the misses'.

I keep a record of all my readings in a book. Remember, I'm doing the readings. So far I really haven't had any misses BUT, I'm VERY NEW to them so maybe it's just luck. My readings (which remember I'm doing) are vague but they're getting more specific as I get better at researching the cards meanings and so forth.

Originally Posted by athon

we're pretty poor at evaluating probability, and we all tend to think of our lives as being more unique than they really are, and you can start to see our brain isn't really good at making judgements of chance.

100% on board with that. This might just be a series of irrelevant coincidences.

Originally Posted by athon

Lastly, if you like the idea of tarot working, you'll read deeper into the language being employed to describe the events and assume more than what is really being said.

I'm not sure if I do like the idea of it working. It's just a fun thing I'm doing because I have a bit of time on my hands. It's not that important to me and I think in the long run it'll just be a silly fad.

Bit stuck as those explanations seem more general and related to psychics. I was looking for specific ideas as to why Tarot cards appear to work. The interesting thing about them is that a proper Celtic Cross reading is more concerned with how things are now than what's going to happen in the future. There's a lot of 'this card is your hopes and fears' & 'this one is what the situation currently is'. It does remind me of a psychic who will often say something along the lines of 'Bill, anyone know a Bill? Yes, he was old wasn't he? He says you liked psychics and he loves you,' or whatever. You know, how they always ground it in the present and past as opposed to 'Bill reckons you're going to get a new extension on the house next year'.

Most of the cards seem to represent archetypes and so on which I guess makes them more likely to be recognized by people in a reading.

Also, before anyone gets on at me, I am doing these readings for my friends and family with a sense of fun. I'm not doling out important info and expecting them to take advice or anything. I'm not confident they work but they seem to..?

[SusanB-M1]

It is quite hard to relinquish that final remnant of 'there must be something init...' and to insist that your mind must consider the rational probability instead! Before JREF and the internet etc, I would have read or heard explanations such as Athon's and still not erased that very tiny area of hmmmm, well, I don't know....
But having done so, I know for certain that it is vastly more interesting, exciting, fascinating, etc to know that there is no mysterious 'magic' and that the things not completely explained yet, will be explained sooner or later and should not be put under an 'unexplainable mystery' heading.

Welcome to the forum - this is just the place to listen to, and really hear, the truth!

[whatthebutlersaw]

If your claim is that it is the readings you do yoursef that are uncannily accurate then it is simply a matter of you combining warm reading and cold reading of your subject.

There is a problem in your description which is confounding the discussion. First you claim you "were told" this and you were told "that" - after a while you claim that it is actually you doing the reading. Which is it?

If A, then all the interjections above apply as you are being the target of cold reading techniques, confirmation bias and human memory.

If B, then you are effectively claiming that the cards are in your hands, but "something" is telling you things? (I.e that it is not you guessing over a few dozen bits of cardboard with pretty pictures) If so, you have kind of stated that you believe it to be paranormal and you appear slightly disingenuous in your claims of skepticism. (As the use of caps in the word 'amazing' in the op title would suggest)

If you are truly interested in finding answers and not just rebuff perfectly valid answers as a matter of course, you could test this quite easily here. There are plenty of people here who could help you devise a simple self test that will check for confounding factors.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

One of the things I was hoping to find here was maybe a few simple but fair tests that might suggest something more than just me being gullible!

The only reliable way to eliminate the many ways in which we can be inadvertantly fooled by our pattern-seeking brains is to do a blinded test. So, for example, you could do a series of readings for several people you don't know, but have them sitting where you can't see them so you can't cold read them and instead of giving the reading verbally write it down. Then make copies of all of the readings for all of the subjects to take away. Give enough time for anything you've predicted to happen, and ask each to pick out the reading that was most accurate. When all have done so, see if the number who picked the reading which was actually theirs is greater than would be expected by chance.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

...snip....Also, before anyone gets on at me, I am doing these readings for my friends and family with a sense of fun. I'm not doling out important info and expecting them to take advice or anything. I'm not confident they work but they seem to..?

Fine, but seeing as you are currently convincing yourself that the cards are accurate what plans do you have for when you "see" something important and possibly life threatening for a recipient of one of your readings?

I think this is where many step over the line.

I think you've got a good imagination that's about it.

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I would be interested to hear some skeptical thoughts on Tarot cards.

Kewl. I have some.

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I have recently been playing about with a pack doing readings for friends and family.

Games are good

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I'm stunned at how accurate they are.

No you aren't. You're stunned at how efficiently the human imagination can 'make things fit'.

Originally Posted by MrErisian

It's incredible!

Yes, and for good reasons.

Originally Posted by MrErisian

We've had some very impressive predictions . . .

<snip nigerian scam-sounding stuff>

No you haven't

Originally Posted by MrErisian

It's VERY strange but my rational mind knows there must be an explanation which goes beyond coincidence.

Why?

Originally Posted by MrErisian

What is it? How do tarot cards work their 'magic'?

They are able to home in on gullible people.

Originally Posted by MrErisian

PS - Hello! My first post on here after a fair bit of lurking. I was told about this forum on the David Icke website where I post under the same username.

Your problem. I have spotted it.


Welcome. Now stop believing nonsense.


Cheers,

Waenre

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

*snip*
I keep a record of all my readings in a book. Remember, I'm doing the readings. So far I really haven't had any misses BUT, I'm VERY NEW to them so maybe it's just luck. My readings (which remember I'm doing) are vague but they're getting more specific as I get better at researching the cards meanings and so forth
*snip*

Excellent! Rigorous recording is one way to test such things. However, I'm not sure what you mean by 'all your readings'. I'm rI'm not the only one not quite familiar with Tarot (and anyway I think there are several methodologies), so could you please explain, in as much detail as possible, what is a reading?

Hans

[RSLancastr]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I keep a record of all my readings in a book. Remember, I'm doing the readings.

Welcome to the forum, MrErisian! I do noot know which method you are using with your cards, but one of the ways tarot cards are made to seem to "work" is due to the very vague, general, and multiple "meanings" which are assigned to each card. I own a dozen or more decks of tart cards, part of my more than 1,000 decks of cards in my card deck collection. Each tarot deck generally comes with a book or pamphlet t assist in interpreting the cards. I notice that the meanings assigned to a given card (The Tower, The Sun, etc...) vary from pamphlet to pamphlet. and, in any one pamphlet, each card is generally given multiple interpretations. and the "reader" is encouraged to broaden each of those interpretations until he/she finds a "meaning" which fits the person who is being "read." Given all that, it seems fairly likely that a person could find "meaning" in any given card relating to their own situation. And, when a person is giving "readings" to themself, they obviously have a rich knowledge of themself from which to attach these "meanings". Does this make any sense? best, -rsl

[Babbylonian]

I played around with tarot reading years ago, and I took the extra difficulty step of reading for strangers (not for money - even when I was "wooish" I never conned people out of cash). It turned out that it wasn't difficult at all. I would start by having the person ask a question of the tarot (I believe this is standard) and then continue to interact with them while turning the cards. Folks were amazed by the accuracy but it was all cold reading patter assisted by the subjects' ignorance of the fact that the cards could mean anything I said they did in the moment they were revealed.

My feeling is that if there was something paranormal going on, the "death" card could just mean death and not have to be assigned the more nebulous (but far more useful to a cold/warm reader) meaning of "major change." Why? Because if it was truly paranormal the death card wouldn't come out when someone asks about their love life unless someone was actually going to die. The same, of course, could be said of the rest of the deck. Since, however, all the cards are assigned vague meanings that change based on the "interpreter," it's just an amusing pastime or a scam (depending on intent).

[Careyp74]

Could you please be so kind as to post what cards you turn over and place in the various positions of the tarot reading? Also, could you then tell us what each card represents when taken into context of the rest of the cards?

[Vortigern99]

Yes, I second Careyp74's request for the thread author (MrErisian) to post a reading or series of readings in full: Which card turned up in which position, how this card was interpreted by the reader, and what significance each card had for the querent.

If you will do this, MrErisian, I feel certain that collectively, we'll be able to analyze the data, and demonstrate that the apparent accuracy of Tarot card readings is a combination of cold and warm reading techniques, vague meanings for each card that can fluctuate from reading to reading, a deck of 78 cards (22 major and 56 minor arcana), some of which have similar meanings, thus offering a nearly endless variety of events, personae and psychological states to bounce off the querent, and of course, the tendency for the human mind to 1) seek patterns and 2) experience awe and wonder.

I should note here that I own three Tarot decks, and I've given myself and others readings for several years. I am thoroughly familiar with the sense of awe and astonishment that comes with an uncannily accurate reading. I just don't believe there's anything supernatural about it, and I feel certain we can demonstrate this with the right set of data.

[Snixtor]

Originally Posted by RSLancastr

part of my more than 1,000 decks of cards in my card deck collection

Off-topic here. You collect decks of cards too? Well, I wouldn't say I've made much of a conscious effort of it, but a little while ago I decided to not dispose of any deck of cards, and grab any that look nice at a good price. So far I've only got about 6 decks, so it's a measly collection. Favourite deck is a set based on the movie "Howls Moving Castle".

[Brian-M]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

We've had some very impressive predictions, for example I was told I'd be offered two jobs at once over a month or so ago and sure enough, I was. This happened in a recession as well.

I'm curious, exactly which combination of cards means "will be offered two jobs at once"?

[ugot2bekidding]

Chris Angel did an interesting piece on tarot cards. He took five people and gave each a private reading. Afterwords, they were each interviewed and every single one of them gushed about how accurate and specific the readings were. He then brought them all together and broke the news that he had given them all the exact same reading...word for word.

[Safe-Keeper]

Same thing James Randi did for his astrology presentation, then. Search YouTube for "Randi astrology" or something.

[Foolmewunz]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I would be interested to hear some skeptical thoughts on Tarot cards. I have recently been playing about with a pack doing readings for friends and family. I'm stunned at how accurate they are. It's incredible!

So you're a dabbler? Colour me sceptical/skeptical. You later say that you're keeping a log of your readings. That sounds like a little more than dabbling.

Quote:

We've had some very impressive predictions, for example I was told I'd be offered two jobs at once over a month or so ago and sure enough, I was. This happened in a recession as well.

Along with a couple of others here, I'd like to know just what cards were shown in what sort of a meld that gave you this specific prediction. From what I've seen of tarot reading, you got a couple of anomalous cards and interpreted them for yourself. Does your log record the actual sequence of events and the specific "You will get two job offers" - before they actually happened, or did you later get a couple of job offers and think, "Wow! So that's what the cards were telling me."

Quote:

I was told my friend was looking to move house, he was.

Again - specific cards, meld, notes. I turn over tarot cards and I see pretty pictures.

Quote:

I got told my sister wouldn't be impressed by the bloke she went on a blind date with. She wasn't.

Same request. What cards gave you such a detailed response?
Might the Magic Eight Ball have done the same?

Quote:

It's VERY strange but my rational mind knows there must be an explanation which goes beyond coincidence. What is it? How do tarot cards work their 'magic'?

The magic is in your mind and in the minds of those you're playing to. It's not to be scoffed at, it's a wonderful thing the human imagination. But it's imagination, as is much that one terms "magic".

Quote:

PS - Hello! My first post on here after a fair bit of lurking. I was told about this forum on the David Icke website where I post under the same username.

Welcome aboard. We have believers of all sorts, here, so I mean that. I'm not picking on your beliefs - I just feel that you're a little more into it than you're letting on. Pardon our cynicism but we get people starting out here quite often with threads or posts along the lines of, "I've been looking at ________ (homeopathy, cryptozoology, ufology, 911CT) and am not convinced that there's not something to this. How else do you explain XXXX or YYYY." And then, what follows is six hundred posts from a true believer trying to sell us on their particular occult or woo belief.

[MikeSun5]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I was looking for specific ideas as to why Tarot cards appear to work.

athon gave a whole bunch of great (and quite specific) ideas as to why they "appear to work."

Another idea why tarot cards appear to work is because there is a myriad of ways to get "information" out of them. I actually designed one a while back (a minchiate deck), and the whole fun was cramming an enormous amount of imagery into the picture to aid with the cold/warm reading. So you've got the standard meanings of the cards plus all this imagery and color to feed off of. It's not hard at all to get some seemingly detailed (and accurate) readings.

Try this: take some index cards and simply write the name of each of the normal tarot cards them. When you use just black words on white cards, see how much the accuracy of your readings suffer.

The fact that you keep a log to see what comes true later just adds to your confirmation bias. Are all of your readings valid forever? Do they have expiration dates? If not, then what you're doing is stockpiling up a ton of random things that could easily apply to your life later.

Try this: put a time limit on your readings. Say one week. When you don't have infinite time for hundreds of readings to come true, see how much the accuracy of your readings suffer.

[athon]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I'm not sure if I do like the idea of it working. It's just a fun thing I'm doing because I have a bit of time on my hands. It's not that important to me and I think in the long run it'll just be a silly fad.

I should clarify what I mean by 'like the idea of it working'.

You're obviously entertaining the idea that it's possible. Which, in itself, is not a bad stance to take. It's all well and good to try to claim neutrality, but it's an impossible position to hold. We cannot be unbiased. Ever. However, we can be aware of how our perception biases our conclusions.

You might truthfully state it is just a bit of fun that may or may not have its roots in a paranormal phenomenon. However, other have to interpret what you say. You also have an interpretation. There is unintentional feedback being provided by the 'client' (person for who the reading is being done) that influences the reading of the cards. A simple nod here, a smile there...it's all enough to encourage or discourage a slant you'll place on the wording.

Later, they'll confirm or deny. Often, a client will go to great lengths to make it fit. If it's vague and generic enough, it will fit easily. Take into account that the divinations rarely have time constraints, and it can widens the possibility further. What initially seems amazing (because, as I said, we're wired to think of ourselves and our own as relatively unique), when scrutinised, later becomes almost inevitable, or at least rather common.

Quote:

Bit stuck as those explanations seem more general and related to psychics. I was looking for specific ideas as to why Tarot cards appear to work.

I'm not sure why it should come as a surprise - they both work on identical psychological principles. Both are ways of divining some form of 'hidden' knowledge, and both often rely on reading of some sort and interpretation of the media used (even if the media is just the random thoughts of a psychic).

Quote:

Most of the cards seem to represent archetypes and so on which I guess makes them more likely to be recognized by people in a reading.

Tarot is intentionally non-specific. It refers to 'maternal figures', for instance, rather than specifically 'mother'. That way, it's up to the reader to decide whether it refers to their aunt, grandmother, kind neighbour, teacher etc. You might be amazed at the coincidence of a series of cards indicating a tragedy befalling a maternal figure matching your favourite aunt falling down the stairs the week following a reading. But, given the fact that tragedy could be anything from a theft to a death, maternal figure could be anybody from your sister to your great grandmother and there is no time constraints (it could be tomorrow or a fortnight from now), it becomes less amazing.

Quote:

Also, before anyone gets on at me, I am doing these readings for my friends and family with a sense of fun. I'm not doling out important info and expecting them to take advice or anything. I'm not confident they work but they seem to..?

I think you'll find a lot of skeptics are people who did the same thing. There are many here who once thought themselves to be psychic, saw ghosts or (as is my case) wondered if there was something to ESP and divination. However, most of us felt paranormal explanations simply were sufficient to explain what we saw. They were too dismissive, to much of a flippant wave of the hands. The explanations that did the best job of explaining it were, however, even more awesome than vague descriptions of magic.

Athon

[MikeSun5]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I got told my sister wouldn't be impressed by the bloke she went on a blind date with. She wasn't.

You needed Tarot to predict that? That's golden!

[skeptigirl]

I collect the cards with really cool artwork.

Mr. E, you need to read about the fallacy of cold reading as others here are also telling you.


Someone at Burning Man was inviting people to dress up to be the card characters. They were taking photos and making a deck out of them. I want one of those decks.

[MikeSun5]

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

Someone at Burning Man was inviting people to dress up to be the card characters. They were taking photos and making a deck out of them.

Ah, the elusive Stoned Beatnik Deck... I can get you the Organic Edition or Bohemian Edition, but either of them will cost you 3 magic beads, 2 hugs, and an avocado.

Or you can download it here for free.

...man, I hate hippies...

[Akhenaten]

The OP is correct. These Tarot cards ARE amazing!

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by devnull

I'm not sure how it works, but my cards tell me that one of your friends is having some sort of health issue..... am I right?

Originally Posted by MrErisian

No, fortunately not!

You have no friends with any health issues??
Either you have very few friends, or you are willing to be dishonest just to press your point.

[Whiplash]

Originally Posted by Brian-M

I'm curious, exactly which combination of cards means "will be offered two jobs at once"?

Ditto, my first reading of the OP was leaving me wondering how the cards tell you things like two job offers, or someone moving. I admit to limited experience with the cards, but I know they didn't have a "you will get two job offers in a recession" card. This is simply someones interpretation of the cards that came up?

To the OP, what you are experiencing is exactly the reason this kind of crap has perpetuated for centuries, if not millennia. There is known and somewhat understood psychology going on that makes people prone to want to believe these kinds of things. We've come to identify them, and show how they work. Things like confirmation bias for example. People end up deluding themselves.. and others. But people continue to believe, and turn a blind eye to the growing body of scientific evidence and understanding which shows that they are wrong.

[shandyjan]

Originally Posted by RSLancastr

Welcome to the forum, MrErisian! I do noot know which method you are using with your cards, but one of the ways tarot cards are made to seem to "work" is due to the very vague, general, and multiple "meanings" which are assigned to each card. I own a dozen or more decks of tart cards, part of my more than 1,000 decks of cards in my card deck collection. Each tarot deck generally comes with a book or pamphlet t assist in interpreting the cards. I notice that the meanings assigned to a given card (The Tower, The Sun, etc...) vary from pamphlet to pamphlet. and, in any one pamphlet, each card is generally given multiple interpretations. and the "reader" is encouraged to broaden each of those interpretations until he/she finds a "meaning" which fits the person who is being "read." Given all that, it seems fairly likely that a person could find "meaning" in any given card relating to their own situation. And, when a person is giving "readings" to themself, they obviously have a rich knowledge of themself from which to attach these "meanings". Does this make any sense? best, -rsl

I had a bit of a dabble with them a few years ago too. It seems there are so many meanings it is easy to either pick the right one (hot reading...it was family) or make a general guess.
I wrote everything down so the misses wernt forgotten. There were some very good hits. There were also some things that just idnt relate.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

Quote:

Im not sure how it works, but my cards tell me that one of your friends is having some sort of health issue..... am I right?

No, fortunately not!

My magic 8-ball says you're wrong. One of your friends does have some sort of health issue- they just aren't aware of the problem yet.

Wait and see- these predictions are really accurate.

[ynot]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I would be interested to hear some skeptical thoughts on Tarot cards. I have recently been playing about with a pack doing readings for friends and family. I'm stunned at how accurate they are. It's incredible!

We've had some very impressive predictions, for example I was told I'd be offered two jobs at once over a month or so ago and sure enough, I was. This happened in a recession as well.

I was told my friend was looking to move house, he was.

I got told my sister wouldn't be impressed by the bloke she went on a blind date with. She wasn't.

It's VERY strange but my rational mind knows there must be an explanation which goes beyond coincidence. What is it? How do tarot cards work their 'magic'?

PS - Hello! My first post on here after a fair bit of lurking. I was told about this forum on the David Icke website where I post under the same username.

Tarot cards are no more AMAZING than any ink printed on any card (cereal packets for instance).

What is truly AMAZING however is that people like yourself believe that Tarot cards are any more AMAZING than cereal packets.

[Robert Oz]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

I would be interested to hear some skeptical thoughts on Tarot cards. I have recently been playing about with a pack doing readings for friends and family. I'm stunned at how accurate they are. It's incredible!

We've had some very impressive predictions, for example I was told I'd be offered two jobs at once over a month or so ago and sure enough, I was. This happened in a recession as well.

I was told my friend was looking to move house, he was.

I got told my sister wouldn't be impressed by the bloke she went on a blind date with. She wasn't.

The two main factors at play here are cold reading and confirmation bias. The good news is, you can eliminate both in some simple tests.

Before I suggest a test you can try, ask yourself the following questions:

1. Does the interpretation of the cards begin with a general description and then move to the more specific based on feedback from the sitter (verbal and non-verbal)?

2. Do you write down the details of the reading as you are giving the reading or after the reading is finished?

3. Do you get later feedback from a sitter and only then realise the specifics of what you saw in the tarot cards?

4. How much of the reading is shaped by your own knowledge of the sitters' lives and personalities?

As for a test, I suggest you perform some readings for users on this forum. The statements should be numbered, rather than a page of information that a sitter can weed through for hits. The statements should be as specific as possible (e.g. two jobs at the same time this past week or moved house this past month). The sitters can then go through the list of numbered statements and mark them as hits or misses. If a sitter believes a statement is too vague, they should mark them as such.

Granted this is a sloppy test, and I welcome suggestions to make it better, but I think it would do in showing that cold reading and confiration bias explain everything you think about tarot cards.

I am perfectly willing to be a subject for a reading. If you are honest in your search for the truth, you will not do searches on the users you are reading to obtain information for a hot reading. If any statements can be traced specifically to past postings of mine, I will say so in my response to the reading with links.

[Pup]

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

I am perfectly willing to be a subject for a reading.

What he said, and I'd also be glad to volunteer.

[fromdownunder]

Originally Posted by Pup

What he said, and I'd also be glad to volunteer.

Me three.

Norm

[MrErisian]

Blimey! Lot of posts to respond to here... I think the idea of testing these things is a good one so I'll post on that first.

As an opening suggestion perhaps the test should run something like this:

• Agree upon a querant. I'd prefer a poster who isn't too intent on proving any one point of view. IE a genuine skeptic.
  
• Work out a reasonable question.
  
• Once the above are done me and the subject will then, in advance, work out the information we will be getting from the cards. This is pretty easy, they all fall into areas which denote information about a specific area. For example - the subject's hopes and fears as regards the question, the subject's history as regards the question, their conscious mind, etc etc. This information can be easily tested online with instant results. I've noticed that the cards seem to spend a lot of time giving info which can be verified there and then before moving onto the 'predicitons'.
  
• I think that once we've sorted out the above the questioner should then write out somewhere the response they'd expect as regards the areas we know we'll get instant answers for. That way we can get a clear idea straight away as to how effective they are. If your 'Hopes and Fears' for the question are written down in advance and then the cards flatly contradict what you've written we'll count that as a fail.
  
• Finally I guess we should work out a time period for the 'predictions' to come true. I guess this is best done by incorporating a duration into the question. So it'd be - how is my career going to go over the next month?

There are ten cards in total, can anyone fairly deduce what we'd call an impressive hitrate as regards accuracy? Maybe 8 cards hit and two misses? Not sure on that, anyone able to work out the odds? I suppose we could go for nothing less than a 100% hitrate but that's for you guys to decide. I think my old car used to start 8 out of 10 times and I still used it to get to work back in the day...

Don't misunderstand the nature of my posts here - I'm not going to get all upset if I find out that actually Tarot isn't 'magic' and is in fact a combination of the rational explanations outlined in the posts above. I've tried to keep an open mind on the whole thing throughout.

[Snixtor]

If there were ever a place to work out a protocol for testing a proposed paranormal phenomenon, the JREF would be the place. But MrErisian, I think your proposed protocol for testing is far too vague and subjective. These are concepts I'm still developing knowledge and understanding in, so I think I'll leave development of an alternative protocol to another friendly poster.

The term "double blind" springs to mind. One point that somebody raised earlier was the concept of doing multiple readings anonymously, then having individuals dictate which reading they feel best applied to them.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by MrErisian

There are ten cards in total, can anyone fairly deduce what we'd call an impressive hitrate as regards accuracy?

Because of the Forer Effect it's very difficult to establish if perceived accuracy is greater than would be expected by chance. In experiments over 90% of people, given exactly the same reading but believing it to be a reading specifically for them, score it four or five out of five for accuracy.

A blinded experiment, such as the one I described in post 10, is specifically designed to eliminate the Forer Effect as an explanation of perceived accuracy. In such experiments it's possible to calculate in advance how likely it is that the subjects would pick out their own reading by chance, and set a success criteria that is significantly greater than that.

[MrErisian]

Originally Posted by Pixel42

The only reliable way to eliminate the many ways in which we can be inadvertantly fooled by our pattern-seeking brains is to do a blinded test. So, for example, you could do a series of readings for several people you don't know, but have them sitting where you can't see them so you can't cold read them and instead of giving the reading verbally write it down. Then make copies of all of the readings for all of the subjects to take away. Give enough time for anything you've predicted to happen, and ask each to pick out the reading that was most accurate. When all have done so, see if the number who picked the reading which was actually theirs is greater than would be expected by chance.

Excellent method. Much better than mine. How many people do we think we should use? Three? More? Who's up for this?