Ian McKellen's bible vandalism catches on

Third Eye Open · 2nd November 2009, 12:29 PM

Link:

Quote:

The openly gay Lord of the Rings star tears out a section of Leviticus, which condemns homosexuality, whenever he finds the good book in hotel suites - and his small-scale vandalism has inspired others to do the same.

Acceptable? Intolerant? Childish? Heroic?

I find it irritating that there are bibles laying around in hotels anyway, though I have never vandalized one. It actually never occurred to me to do it, but now I will probably toss it in the trash at least, they can always take it out if they want.

Yoink · 2nd November 2009, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Third Eye Open

Link:

Acceptable? Intolerant? Childish? Heroic?

I find it irritating that there are bibles laying around in hotels anyway, though I have never vandalized one. It actually never occurred to me to do it, but now I will probably toss it in the trash at least, they can always take it out if they want.

I admire McKellan as an actor, but this strikes me as free publicity for the other side. If there were some society of rationalists who went around putting free copies of "Free Thought" literature in hotel rooms, what would we make of people who bragged about systematically defacing or vandalising those books?

Third Eye Open · 2nd November 2009, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Yoink

I admire McKellan as an actor, but this strikes me as free publicity for the other side. If there were some society of rationalists who went around putting free copies of "Free Thought" literature in hotel rooms, what would we make of people who bragged about systematically defacing or vandalising those books?

Well, those books don't single out a certain group of people as less than human.

AvalonXQ · 2nd November 2009, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Third Eye Open

Well, those books don't single out a certain group of people as less than human.

Neither does the Bible. Now, back on topic...

Defacing someone else's property is unacceptable.
I also find book burnings to be repugnant, even when you own the books you're burning.
Needless to say, defacing someone else's books is unacceptable, uncivilized, and repugnant.

Yoink · 2nd November 2009, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Third Eye Open

Well, those books don't single out a certain group of people as less than human.

Book burners (or tearers) always have their reasons. In this case I am entirely on McKellans side in terms of the cause he embraces and the end point he wants to arrive at; I think he's chosen, however, a tactic which in this case will only hurt his cause and can do it no possible or imaginable good.

Yoink · 2nd November 2009, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Neither does the Bible.

It's obviously been a long time since you read it.

Simon39759 · 2nd November 2009, 12:57 PM

I don't like the idea of vandalizing the books.

I would be much happier if he got his own pamphlets printed and put them alongside the books.

AvalonXQ · 2nd November 2009, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Simon39759

I don't like the idea of vandalizing the books.

I would be much happier if he got his own pamphlets printed and put them alongside the books.

That's a much better idea. Although I wonder which, if any, hotel chains would let him.

Marduk · 2nd November 2009, 01:02 PM

I don't understand his motivation, tearing out Leviticus because it describes homosexuality as an abomination. Surely he should be tearing apart copies of Aladdin for forcing him to be widow twanky, which is more damaging to his attempt to be taken seriously as a gay actor

hehe

Belz... · 2nd November 2009, 01:11 PM

He should be required to buy the bibbles after damaging them.

Belz... · 2nd November 2009, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

I don't understand his motivation, tearing out Leviticus because it describes homosexuality as an abomination. Surely he should be tearing apart copies of Aladdin for forcing him to be widow twanky, which is more damaging to his attempt to be taken seriously as a gay actor
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...3sdfdf5353.jpg
hehe

Ouch.

CurtC · 2nd November 2009, 01:19 PM

I'd be more inclined to highlight the offensive passages so that subsequent guests can see what their holy but mostly unfamiliar book actually says.

Simon39759 · 2nd November 2009, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

That's a much better idea. Although I wonder which, if any, hotel chains would let him.

And, of course, the good Christians that are now crying over the vandalism would get in line to burn the 'evil gay propaganda'.

AvalonXQ · 2nd November 2009, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Simon39759

And, of course, the good Christians that are not crying over the vandalism would get in line to burn the 'evil gay propaganda'.

Uh, no. Note what I said earlier: I'm not interested defacing others' property or burning books. It doesn't matter if I agree with what they say or not.

Marduk · 2nd November 2009, 01:50 PM

I'm still mystified as to his motivation, its like hes saying "hmmm all that crapola up til Leviticus is cool, and all thats stuff after leviticus is cool"
like the man doesnt have a brain in his head does he, I dont see him tearing out the stuff about the degradation of women

still if its because hes worried about being seen as a homosexual actor I can see his problem, after all John Geilgud, Alec Guinness and Laurence Olivier were the very epitome of machismo werent they

Cainkane1 · 2nd November 2009, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Yoink

I admire McKellan as an actor, but this strikes me as free publicity for the other side. If there were some society of rationalists who went around putting free copies of "Free Thought" literature in hotel rooms, what would we make of people who bragged about systematically defacing or vandalising those books?

I agree. The fundys will latch onto this and make a bad situation worse. Those books aren't his property and he has no right to damage them.

Blackadder · 2nd November 2009, 01:53 PM

who ever READS hotel bibles? I would bet he can tear out leviticus all he wants and nobody would ever notice

LibraryLady · 2nd November 2009, 01:55 PM

I recently left a copy of Godless next to a Gideon bible in a hotel. It gives me some pleasure fantasizing about what might happen to it.

six7s · 2nd November 2009, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Third Eye Open

Link:

Yesterday was obviously a very quiet news day at that bastion of tele-journalism...

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/aug/07083005.html

Quote:

AUCKLAND, NZ, August 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - British Actor Ian McKellen who has used the mega-stardom he achieved playing Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings films to promote homosexuality, has admitted to ripping out pages of hotel bibles that refer to homosexuality.

In an August 10 interview on New Zealand's TV1 Close Up program McKellen was confronted by the interviewer questioning the truth of the rumour "He's the one, that when he stays in hotels rips the part of the bible out that criticizes homosexuality."

"Yes it is true," responded McKellen it's even tones. "Its Leviticus 18:22 that I object to, or is it 22:18, I've always got to look it up. Thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination. And they, I think the punishment for an abomination was being stoned to death," he said.

McKellen added, "I think it's rather obscene and pornographic, and shouldn't be there, so I remove it."

Asked how many bibles he has vandalized, McKellen replied, "I have no idea, but other people do it as well, people send me evidence that they have been removing that."

Simon39759 · 2nd November 2009, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Uh, no. Note what I said earlier: I'm not interested defacing others' property or burning books. It doesn't matter if I agree with what they say or not.

I wasn't commenting on you in particular, just as to how too many Christians are crying to act of intolerance, all the while engaging in even worse behaviour toward perceived expressions of atheism (such as mentioned in the discussion about FSM sticker on one's car).

joobz · 2nd November 2009, 02:55 PM

I oppose the labor practices of American Standard. So, I opt to pee on the floor of every hotel I stay at in protest.

pipelineaudio · 2nd November 2009, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by CurtC

I'd be more inclined to highlight the offensive passages so that subsequent guests can see what their holy but mostly unfamiliar book actually says.

You know, that is a really good idea!

Robin · 2nd November 2009, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Neither does the Bible. Now, back on topic...

Defacing someone else's property is unacceptable.
I also find book burnings to be repugnant, even when you own the books you're burning.
Needless to say, defacing someone else's books is unacceptable, uncivilized, and repugnant.

So suppose you go into a hotel room and find a framed sign on the wall saying "AvalonXQ (or whatever your real name is) is an abomination and ought to be put to death", would you simply leave the sign where it was?

Would you regard it as unacceptable if I found a similar sign in a hotel room and removed the paper from the frame and tore it up?

Robin · 2nd November 2009, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Originally Posted by CurtC

I'd be more inclined to highlight the offensive passages so that subsequent guests can see what their holy but mostly unfamiliar book actually says.

You know, that is a really good idea!

That is what I first thought, but then consider - suppose you use postit notes to bring attention to the passages in Deuteronomy which suggest that God command you go into a city and enquire about which God they worship and then slaughter them if they worship the wrong God, or where Moses commands his men in the name of God to slaughter helpless children and to keep the girl children for their own uses.

The reaction of the person reading might not be "what amoral bloodthirsty nonsense this all is", it might instead be "Gosh, God is commanding that stuff, I should be doing it".

AvalonXQ · 2nd November 2009, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

So suppose you go into a hotel room and find a framed sign on the wall saying "AvalonXQ (or whatever your real name is) is an abomination and ought to be put to death", would you simply leave the sign where it was?

Yes, I would. I would also probably go to the management and ask the sign be taken down or else leave the hotel.

Quote:

Would you regard it as unacceptable if I found a similar sign in a hotel room and removed the paper from the frame and tore it up?

Very much so. You don't deface others' property.

Of course, there are differences between your hypothetical and the case in evidence, one of which is that I, like many people, find it especially repugnant to harm books (there are other conceptual differences, like the fact that the Bible quote is about a BEHAVIOR, not a PERSON, being an abomination, but that's probably too content-rich to get into here).

Robin · 2nd November 2009, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Yes, I would. I would also probably go to the management and ask the sign be taken down or else leave the hotel.

Wouldn't do you much good if the management won't take down the sign and every other hotel had the same sign.

So you would be perfectly happy for the sign to remain in place?

Quote:

Very much so. You don't deface others' property.

The same as you don't steal or lie - but there are exceptions to these cases, why not exceptions to this?

Are things more important than people?

Quote:

Of course, there are differences between your hypothetical and the case in evidence, one of which is that I, like many people, find it especially repugnant to harm books

So when a publisher prints a libel or an incitement to violence or terrorism the law demands that the book be pulped. Should this law be repealed?

Are books always more important than people?

Quote:

(there are other conceptual differences, like the fact that the Bible quote is about a BEHAVIOR, not a PERSON, being an abomination, but that's probably too content-rich to get into here).

Sure, the command applies just as much to heterosexuals as it does to homosexuals.

AvalonXQ · 2nd November 2009, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Wouldn't do you much good if the management won't take down the sign and every other hotel had the same sign.

So you would be perfectly happy for the sign to remain in place?

It wouldn't make me happy. That doesn't mean that anything I want to do to fix it is okay.

Quote:

The same as you don't steal or lie - but there are exceptions to these cases, why not exceptions to this?
Are things more important than people?

False dichotomy. In fact, only people are important -- that's why it's wrong to hurt things that belong to other people.

Robin · 2nd November 2009, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

False dichotomy. In fact, only people are important -- that's why it's wrong to hurt things that belong to other people.

Even when those things cause hurt to people?

So are you saying that there is no possible circumstance in which you will intentionally cause damage to something that belongs to another person?

None whatsoever?

AvalonXQ · 2nd November 2009, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Even when those things cause hurt to people?

So are you saying that there is no possible circumstance in which you will intentionally cause damage to something that belongs to another person?

None whatsoever?

I wouldn't say that, no.
But certainly no such circumstance has arisen thus far in this thread.
Tearing out pages from someone else's book because you dislike the message, is not appropriate behavior for an adult.

Marduk · 2nd November 2009, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

False dichotomy. In fact, only people are important -- that's why it's wrong to hurt things that belong to other people.

I don't think Gideon would really mind AvalonXQ, iirc hes been dead a few years now
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideons_International
and as the Gideon organisation distributes bibles free to whoever wants one, the person doing the tearing (Ian Mckellen) is actually the owner, until he discards it. This is why hes happy to talk about what for him is an act of expression over something that is his, otherwise he'd be inviting a prosecution. He might be an old queen but hes not stupid.

Note he said nothing about smashing up the coffee maker or the trouser press.......

Mark A. Siefert · 2nd November 2009, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Defacing someone else's property is unacceptable.

Oh boo fracking hoo! You do realize that the hotel gets the damn things for free from sects like the Gideon? Tearing out pages from a hotel bibble is as much a "crime" as tearing out the Savage Love columns from a stack of The Onion.

So kudos to Sir Ian! Tear out all the hate-filled, superstitious prattle you want. The relgionist retards will just print more, and more, and more...

Ron_Tomkins · 2nd November 2009, 07:27 PM

I would rather he took all the books, put them in a pile, take a staff and hit the ground with it while yelling "YOUUUUU SHALL NOT PAAASS!!!"

six7s · 2nd November 2009, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

So kudos to Sir Ian! Tear out all the hate-filled, superstitious prattle you want. The relgionist retards will just print more, and more, and more...

H0MO***UAL ACT!V!SM PR0MOT3S D3F0REST4T10N AND TEH GL0B4L WARM!NG !!11!!

iT'S TRUE!!11!!

Mark A. Siefert · 2nd November 2009, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

I would rather he took all the books, put them in a pile, take a staff and hit the ground with it while yelling "YOUUUUU SHALL NOT PAAASS!!!"

Please, the man is going to be type-cast forever thanks to those movies. Leave him SOME dignity.

Besides, nothing is more satisfying than the sound of the consecrated paper TEARING away from the spine followed by the feel of crumbling up those sacred scriptures into a ball to be tossed into the nearest trash can where it belongs.

Mark A. Siefert · 2nd November 2009, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by six7s

H0MO***UAL ACT!V!SM PR0MOT3S D3F0REST4T10N AND TEH GL0B4L WARM!NG !!11!!

iT'S TRUE!!11!!

I thought that bringing forth Armageddon was a top priority for some breeds of Christer. Surely, turning the earth into a polluted dump will bring JEEZ-us back to magic the faithful up to Heaven.

Hell, its been the GOPs platform during Dubbya's administration!

six7s · 2nd November 2009, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

I thought that bringing forth Armageddon was a top priority for some breeds of Christer. Surely, turning the earth into a polluted dump will surely bring JEEZ-us back to magic the faithful up to Heaven.

Oh christ! We're screwed either way, right!

I blame his mother!

Marduk · 2nd November 2009, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

Please, the man is going to be type-cast forever thanks to those movies. Leave him SOME dignity.

he kept his dignity by refusing to play Dumbledore, Alas poor Michael Gambon.

Whiplash · 2nd November 2009, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

Oh boo fracking hoo! You do realize that the hotel gets the damn things for free from sects like the Gideon? Tearing out pages from a hotel bibble is as much a "crime" as tearing out the Savage Love columns from a stack of The Onion.

So kudos to Sir Ian! Tear out all the hate-filled, superstitious prattle you want. The relgionist retards will just print more, and more, and more...

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

Please, the man is going to be type-cast forever thanks to those movies. Leave him SOME dignity.

Besides, nothing is more satisfying than the sound of the consecrated paper TEARING away from the spine followed by the feel of crumbling up those sacred scriptures into a ball to be tossed into the nearest trash can where it belongs.

Yikes. While I agree in principal, you seem to get awfully angry or worked up about this sort of thing when it comes up (ie religion).

I understand why some are so anti-religious, but to some extent I think it's fair to say "chill out" and "get some perspective".

tyr_13 · 2nd November 2009, 08:04 PM

Several years ago I thought about making a hotmail account for the sole purpose of leaving it on cards in the hotel Bibles. I was curious how many people would email.

Why do hotels even put those in the room? Why not something useful? Would they put any book in their rooms that someone donated to them?

Mark A. Siefert · 2nd November 2009, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Whiplash

Yikes. While I agree in principal, you seem to get awfully angry or worked up about this sort of thing when it comes up (ie religion).

I understand why some are so anti-religious, but to some extent I think it's fair to say "chill out" and "get some perspective".

Oh, but I do have a perspective. One that comes from living under the thumb of a family where one side is made up of hard-core Catholics and the other is dominated by Evangelical Lutherans (Wisconsin Synod).

If it weren't for the damn forum rules, you'd see just how "worked up" I could really get.

2nd November 2009, 12:29 PM	#1
Third Eye Open Muse Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Washington state, USA Posts: 893	Ian McKellen's bible vandalism catches on Link: Quote: The openly gay Lord of the Rings star tears out a section of Leviticus, which condemns homosexuality, whenever he finds the good book in hotel suites - and his small-scale vandalism has inspired others to do the same. Acceptable? Intolerant? Childish? Heroic? I find it irritating that there are bibles laying around in hotels anyway, though I have never vandalized one. It actually never occurred to me to do it, but now I will probably toss it in the trash at least, they can always take it out if they want.
	__________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."- Friedrich von Schiller "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson "We've got no FOOD, no JOBS...our pets HEADS ARE FALLING OFF!" - Lloyd Christmas

2nd November 2009, 12:35 PM	#2
Yoink Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,508	Originally Posted by Third Eye Open Link: Acceptable? Intolerant? Childish? Heroic? I find it irritating that there are bibles laying around in hotels anyway, though I have never vandalized one. It actually never occurred to me to do it, but now I will probably toss it in the trash at least, they can always take it out if they want. I admire McKellan as an actor, but this strikes me as free publicity for the other side. If there were some society of rationalists who went around putting free copies of "Free Thought" literature in hotel rooms, what would we make of people who bragged about systematically defacing or vandalising those books?
Yoink Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,508

2nd November 2009, 12:39 PM	#3
Third Eye Open Muse Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Washington state, USA Posts: 893	Originally Posted by Yoink I admire McKellan as an actor, but this strikes me as free publicity for the other side. If there were some society of rationalists who went around putting free copies of "Free Thought" literature in hotel rooms, what would we make of people who bragged about systematically defacing or vandalising those books? Well, those books don't single out a certain group of people as less than human.
	__________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."- Friedrich von Schiller "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson "We've got no FOOD, no JOBS...our pets HEADS ARE FALLING OFF!" - Lloyd Christmas

2nd November 2009, 12:45 PM	#4
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750	Originally Posted by Third Eye Open Well, those books don't single out a certain group of people as less than human. Neither does the Bible. Now, back on topic... Defacing someone else's property is unacceptable. I also find book burnings to be repugnant, even when you own the books you're burning. Needless to say, defacing someone else's books is unacceptable, uncivilized, and repugnant.
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750

2nd November 2009, 12:46 PM	#5
Yoink Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,508	Originally Posted by Third Eye Open Well, those books don't single out a certain group of people as less than human. Book burners (or tearers) always have their reasons. In this case I am entirely on McKellans side in terms of the cause he embraces and the end point he wants to arrive at; I think he's chosen, however, a tactic which in this case will only hurt his cause and can do it no possible or imaginable good.
Yoink Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,508

2nd November 2009, 12:47 PM	#6
Yoink Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,508	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Neither does the Bible. It's obviously been a long time since you read it.
Yoink Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,508

2nd November 2009, 12:57 PM	#7
Simon39759 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,020	I don't like the idea of vandalizing the books. I would be much happier if he got his own pamphlets printed and put them alongside the books.

2nd November 2009, 12:58 PM	#8
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750	Originally Posted by Simon39759 I don't like the idea of vandalizing the books. I would be much happier if he got his own pamphlets printed and put them alongside the books. That's a much better idea. Although I wonder which, if any, hotel chains would let him.
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750

2nd November 2009, 01:02 PM	#9
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 2,007	I don't understand his motivation, tearing out Leviticus because it describes homosexuality as an abomination. Surely he should be tearing apart copies of Aladdin for forcing him to be widow twanky, which is more damaging to his attempt to be taken seriously as a gay actor hehe
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

2nd November 2009, 01:11 PM	#10
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a multiverse of my own creation Posts: 15,537	He should be required to buy the bibbles after damaging them.
	__________________ - "To kill and be king, is that all?" - "Perhaps not even that." -- Uther and Merlin, Excalibur Current avatar from Jaestudio.com

2nd November 2009, 01:12 PM	#11
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a multiverse of my own creation Posts: 15,537	Originally Posted by Marduk I don't understand his motivation, tearing out Leviticus because it describes homosexuality as an abomination. Surely he should be tearing apart copies of Aladdin for forcing him to be widow twanky, which is more damaging to his attempt to be taken seriously as a gay actor http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...3sdfdf5353.jpg hehe Ouch.
	__________________ - "To kill and be king, is that all?" - "Perhaps not even that." -- Uther and Merlin, Excalibur Current avatar from Jaestudio.com

2nd November 2009, 01:19 PM	#12
CurtC Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 4,095	I'd be more inclined to highlight the offensive passages so that subsequent guests can see what their holy but mostly unfamiliar book actually says.
	__________________ Is there a God? Find the answer at The Official God FAQ.

2nd November 2009, 01:23 PM	#13
Simon39759 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,020	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ That's a much better idea. Although I wonder which, if any, hotel chains would let him. And, of course, the good Christians that are now crying over the vandalism would get in line to burn the 'evil gay propaganda'.
	Last edited by Simon39759; 2nd November 2009 at 02:48 PM.

2nd November 2009, 01:33 PM	#14
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750	Originally Posted by Simon39759 And, of course, the good Christians that are not crying over the vandalism would get in line to burn the 'evil gay propaganda'. Uh, no. Note what I said earlier: I'm not interested defacing others' property or burning books. It doesn't matter if I agree with what they say or not.
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750

2nd November 2009, 01:50 PM	#15
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 2,007	I'm still mystified as to his motivation, its like hes saying "hmmm all that crapola up til Leviticus is cool, and all thats stuff after leviticus is cool" like the man doesnt have a brain in his head does he, I dont see him tearing out the stuff about the degradation of women still if its because hes worried about being seen as a homosexual actor I can see his problem, after all John Geilgud, Alec Guinness and Laurence Olivier were the very epitome of machismo werent they
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

2nd November 2009, 01:50 PM	#16
Cainkane1 Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 2,029	Originally Posted by Yoink I admire McKellan as an actor, but this strikes me as free publicity for the other side. If there were some society of rationalists who went around putting free copies of "Free Thought" literature in hotel rooms, what would we make of people who bragged about systematically defacing or vandalising those books? I agree. The fundys will latch onto this and make a bad situation worse. Those books aren't his property and he has no right to damage them.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

2nd November 2009, 01:53 PM	#17
Blackadder Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Netherlands Posts: 546	who ever READS hotel bibles? I would bet he can tear out leviticus all he wants and nobody would ever notice
	__________________ "Instead of controlling the environment for the benefit of the population, maybe we should control the population to ensure the survival of our environment." Sir David Attenborough.

2nd November 2009, 01:55 PM	#18
LibraryLady Hunter of the SnarK Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople Posts: 8,756	I recently left a copy of Godless next to a Gideon bible in a hotel. It gives me some pleasure fantasizing about what might happen to it.
	__________________ Write Right! Get help for grammar! Post your good news here! "I shall sit here," he said, "on and off, for days and days."

2nd November 2009, 02:46 PM	#19
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 7,768	Originally Posted by Third Eye Open Link: Yesterday was obviously a very quiet news day at that bastion of tele-journalism... http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/aug/07083005.html Quote: AUCKLAND, NZ, August 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - British Actor Ian McKellen who has used the mega-stardom he achieved playing Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings films to promote homosexuality, has admitted to ripping out pages of hotel bibles that refer to homosexuality. In an August 10 interview on New Zealand's TV1 Close Up program McKellen was confronted by the interviewer questioning the truth of the rumour "He's the one, that when he stays in hotels rips the part of the bible out that criticizes homosexuality." "Yes it is true," responded McKellen it's even tones. "Its Leviticus 18:22 that I object to, or is it 22:18, I've always got to look it up. Thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination. And they, I think the punishment for an abomination was being stoned to death," he said. McKellen added, "I think it's rather obscene and pornographic, and shouldn't be there, so I remove it." Asked how many bibles he has vandalized, McKellen replied, "I have no idea, but other people do it as well, people send me evidence that they have been removing that."
	__________________ This post is copyleft and may include tyops and/or fallacies and/or grammatical errors like ending a sentence with a preposition - something up with which some will not put Copyright today is a system inflicted on the public, not a system that benefits the public. Richard Stallman - Founder of the GNU Project

2nd November 2009, 02:50 PM	#20
Simon39759 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,020	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Uh, no. Note what I said earlier: I'm not interested defacing others' property or burning books. It doesn't matter if I agree with what they say or not. I wasn't commenting on you in particular, just as to how too many Christians are crying to act of intolerance, all the while engaging in even worse behaviour toward perceived expressions of atheism (such as mentioned in the discussion about FSM sticker on one's car).

2nd November 2009, 02:55 PM	#21
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Inside the Magical Murder Bag Posts: 11,154	I oppose the labor practices of American Standard. So, I opt to pee on the floor of every hotel I stay at in protest.
	__________________ "Joobz you can be something else sometimes."- DOC

2nd November 2009, 02:57 PM	#22
pipelineaudio Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 2,164	Originally Posted by CurtC I'd be more inclined to highlight the offensive passages so that subsequent guests can see what their holy but mostly unfamiliar book actually says. You know, that is a really good idea!
	__________________ Can someone give me a better name for SLAG FAIRY?

2nd November 2009, 03:02 PM	#23
Robin Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,918	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Neither does the Bible. Now, back on topic... Defacing someone else's property is unacceptable. I also find book burnings to be repugnant, even when you own the books you're burning. Needless to say, defacing someone else's books is unacceptable, uncivilized, and repugnant. So suppose you go into a hotel room and find a framed sign on the wall saying "AvalonXQ (or whatever your real name is) is an abomination and ought to be put to death", would you simply leave the sign where it was? Would you regard it as unacceptable if I found a similar sign in a hotel room and removed the paper from the frame and tore it up?
Robin Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,918	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776

2nd November 2009, 03:06 PM	#24
Robin Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,918	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio Originally Posted by CurtC I'd be more inclined to highlight the offensive passages so that subsequent guests can see what their holy but mostly unfamiliar book actually says. You know, that is a really good idea! That is what I first thought, but then consider - suppose you use postit notes to bring attention to the passages in Deuteronomy which suggest that God command you go into a city and enquire about which God they worship and then slaughter them if they worship the wrong God, or where Moses commands his men in the name of God to slaughter helpless children and to keep the girl children for their own uses. The reaction of the person reading might not be "what amoral bloodthirsty nonsense this all is", it might instead be "Gosh, God is commanding that stuff, I should be doing it".
Robin Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,918	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776 Last edited by Robin; 2nd November 2009 at 03:07 PM.

2nd November 2009, 03:06 PM	#25
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750	Originally Posted by Robin So suppose you go into a hotel room and find a framed sign on the wall saying "AvalonXQ (or whatever your real name is) is an abomination and ought to be put to death", would you simply leave the sign where it was? Yes, I would. I would also probably go to the management and ask the sign be taken down or else leave the hotel. Quote: Would you regard it as unacceptable if I found a similar sign in a hotel room and removed the paper from the frame and tore it up? Very much so. You don't deface others' property. Of course, there are differences between your hypothetical and the case in evidence, one of which is that I, like many people, find it especially repugnant to harm books (there are other conceptual differences, like the fact that the Bible quote is about a BEHAVIOR, not a PERSON, being an abomination, but that's probably too content-rich to get into here).
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750

2nd November 2009, 03:37 PM	#26
Robin Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,918	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Yes, I would. I would also probably go to the management and ask the sign be taken down or else leave the hotel. Wouldn't do you much good if the management won't take down the sign and every other hotel had the same sign. So you would be perfectly happy for the sign to remain in place? Quote: Very much so. You don't deface others' property. The same as you don't steal or lie - but there are exceptions to these cases, why not exceptions to this? Are things more important than people? Quote: Of course, there are differences between your hypothetical and the case in evidence, one of which is that I, like many people, find it especially repugnant to harm books So when a publisher prints a libel or an incitement to violence or terrorism the law demands that the book be pulped. Should this law be repealed? Are books always more important than people? Quote: (there are other conceptual differences, like the fact that the Bible quote is about a BEHAVIOR, not a PERSON, being an abomination, but that's probably too content-rich to get into here). Sure, the command applies just as much to heterosexuals as it does to homosexuals.
Robin Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,918	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776

2nd November 2009, 03:41 PM	#27
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750	Originally Posted by Robin Wouldn't do you much good if the management won't take down the sign and every other hotel had the same sign. So you would be perfectly happy for the sign to remain in place? It wouldn't make me happy. That doesn't mean that anything I want to do to fix it is okay. Quote: The same as you don't steal or lie - but there are exceptions to these cases, why not exceptions to this? Are things more important than people? False dichotomy. In fact, only people are important -- that's why it's wrong to hurt things that belong to other people.
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750

2nd November 2009, 03:47 PM	#28
Robin Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,918	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ False dichotomy. In fact, only people are important -- that's why it's wrong to hurt things that belong to other people. Even when those things cause hurt to people? So are you saying that there is no possible circumstance in which you will intentionally cause damage to something that belongs to another person? None whatsoever?
Robin Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,918	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776 Last edited by Robin; 2nd November 2009 at 03:51 PM.

2nd November 2009, 07:03 PM	#29
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750	Originally Posted by Robin Even when those things cause hurt to people? So are you saying that there is no possible circumstance in which you will intentionally cause damage to something that belongs to another person? None whatsoever? I wouldn't say that, no. But certainly no such circumstance has arisen thus far in this thread. Tearing out pages from someone else's book because you dislike the message, is not appropriate behavior for an adult.
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750

2nd November 2009, 07:19 PM	#30
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 2,007	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ False dichotomy. In fact, only people are important -- that's why it's wrong to hurt things that belong to other people. I don't think Gideon would really mind AvalonXQ, iirc hes been dead a few years now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideons_International and as the Gideon organisation distributes bibles free to whoever wants one, the person doing the tearing (Ian Mckellen) is actually the owner, until he discards it. This is why hes happy to talk about what for him is an act of expression over something that is his, otherwise he'd be inviting a prosecution. He might be an old queen but hes not stupid. Note he said nothing about smashing up the coffee maker or the trouser press.......
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer) Last edited by Marduk; 2nd November 2009 at 07:21 PM.

2nd November 2009, 07:26 PM	#31
Mark A. Siefert Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 2,959	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Defacing someone else's property is unacceptable. Oh boo fracking hoo! You do realize that the hotel gets the damn things for free from sects like the Gideon? Tearing out pages from a hotel bibble is as much a "crime" as tearing out the Savage Love columns from a stack of The Onion. So kudos to Sir Ian! Tear out all the hate-filled, superstitious prattle you want. The relgionist retards will just print more, and more, and more...
	__________________ No Gods! No Masters! Mark A. SIefert

2nd November 2009, 07:27 PM	#32
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 13,607	I would rather he took all the books, put them in a pile, take a staff and hit the ground with it while yelling "YOUUUUU SHALL NOT PAAASS!!!"
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan

2nd November 2009, 07:40 PM	#33
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 7,768	Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert So kudos to Sir Ian! Tear out all the hate-filled, superstitious prattle you want. The relgionist retards will just print more, and more, and more... H0MO***UAL ACT!V!SM PR0MOT3S D3F0REST4T10N AND TEH GL0B4L WARM!NG !!11!! iT'S TRUE!!11!!
	__________________ This post is copyleft and may include tyops and/or fallacies and/or grammatical errors like ending a sentence with a preposition - something up with which some will not put Copyright today is a system inflicted on the public, not a system that benefits the public. Richard Stallman - Founder of the GNU Project

2nd November 2009, 07:45 PM	#34
Mark A. Siefert Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 2,959	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins I would rather he took all the books, put them in a pile, take a staff and hit the ground with it while yelling "YOUUUUU SHALL NOT PAAASS!!!" Please, the man is going to be type-cast forever thanks to those movies. Leave him SOME dignity. Besides, nothing is more satisfying than the sound of the consecrated paper TEARING away from the spine followed by the feel of crumbling up those sacred scriptures into a ball to be tossed into the nearest trash can where it belongs.
	__________________ No Gods! No Masters! Mark A. SIefert

2nd November 2009, 07:47 PM	#35
Mark A. Siefert Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 2,959	Originally Posted by six7s H0MO***UAL ACT!V!SM PR0MOT3S D3F0REST4T10N AND TEH GL0B4L WARM!NG !!11!! iT'S TRUE!!11!! I thought that bringing forth Armageddon was a top priority for some breeds of Christer. Surely, turning the earth into a polluted dump will bring JEEZ-us back to magic the faithful up to Heaven. Hell, its been the GOPs platform during Dubbya's administration!
	__________________ No Gods! No Masters! Mark A. SIefert Last edited by Mark A. Siefert; 2nd November 2009 at 07:49 PM.