Ian McKellen's bible vandalism catches on - Page 2

Marduk · 2nd November 2009, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Why do hotels even put those in the room? Why not something useful?

you wait til youre stuck in a hotel room with the galloping trots and no toilet paper before you go saying those tissue thin paper bibles arent useful

Simon39759 · 2nd November 2009, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Several years ago I thought about making a hotmail account for the sole purpose of leaving it on cards in the hotel Bibles. I was curious how many people would email.

Why do hotels even put those in the room? Why not something useful? Would they put any book in their rooms that someone donated to them?

Certainly not.
I would offer them gay porn; I am quite certain that they would refuse to put them into the rooms.

But now consider. If they were to refuse to put Bible, odds are, the Gideon would report it to the media and, the next thing you know, O'Reilly would be calling to boycott this particular hostelry chain to protest their 'anti-Christian agenda'.

tyr_13 · 2nd November 2009, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Simon39759

Certainly not.
I would offer them gay porn; I am quite certain that they would refuse to put them into the rooms.

But now consider. If they were to refuse to put Bible, odds are, the Gideon would report it to the media and, the next thing you know, O'Reilly would be calling to boycott this particular hostelry chain to protest their 'anti-Christian agenda'.

Yes, but even crap hotels have bibles. Would the local motel really end up in the papers for not putting bibles in the room?

Apart from that, I find it difficult to believe that even O'Reilly could spin not accepting a bible into an anti-Christian agenda.

gtc · 2nd November 2009, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Simon39759

And, of course, the good Christians that are now crying over the vandalism would get in line to burn the 'evil gay propaganda'.

You have no evidence for this.

gtc · 2nd November 2009, 09:46 PM

tyr_13,

They are donated. I doubt it costs them anything other than to drop them into the rooms.

Originally Posted by Simon39759

Certainly not.
I would offer them gay porn; I am quite certain that they would refuse to put them into the rooms.

But now consider. If they were to refuse to put Bible, odds are, the Gideon would report it to the media and, the next thing you know, O'Reilly would be calling to boycott this particular hostelry chain to protest their 'anti-Christian agenda'.

You are free to organise a boycott of any hotel that refuses to distribute your gay porn on your behalf.

six7s · 3rd November 2009, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by gtc

Originally Posted by Simon39759

And, of course, the good Christians that are now crying over the vandalism would get in line to burn the 'evil gay propaganda'.

You have no evidence for this.

Without asking, you have no way of knowing one way or another

OK... so Simon39759 has yet to furnish evidence of such behaviour

So what?

Do you have a point to make?

Going by the despicable acts of ignorance-fueled hatred that are routinely perpetrated by those filled with teh l0v3 of teh j3sus, I think that its quite likely that evidence does (or will soon) exist

gtc · 3rd November 2009, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by six7s

Without asking, you have no way of knowing one way or another

Are you saying that I have no idea whether he has evidence or whether his allegation is true?

He may have evidence, but I doubt it.

Originally Posted by six7s

OK... so Simon39759 has yet to furnish evidence of such behaviour

So what?

We are on a skeptics board. We don't usually accept statments at face value.

Originally Posted by six7s

Do you have a point to make?

Yes. There is no evidence to suggest that Christians who are upset about someone tearing out pages from a bible would be 'lining up' to burn a pamphlett denouncing the bible's views on Homosexuality.

Originally Posted by six7s

Going by the despicable acts of ignorance-fueled hatred that are routinely perpetrated by those filled with teh l0v3 of teh j3sus, I think that its quite likely that evidence does (or will soon) exist

A google search for 'christians hate homosexuality' is not particularly relevant.

hamelekim · 3rd November 2009, 01:47 AM

Destroying private property is wrong, period. If you destroy a Bible in a hotel room, or damage it purposefully you are engaging in an unethical act.

If you want to purchase a Bible and destroy it, go ahead. I disagree with that behavior, just as I disagree with book burning of any kind, but it's your free right to do so.

Darat · 3rd November 2009, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

...snip...

Why do hotels even put those in the room? Why not something useful? Would they put any book in their rooms that someone donated to them?

Habit.

Darat · 3rd November 2009, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

Destroying private property is wrong, period. If you destroy a Bible in a hotel room, or damage it purposefully you are engaging in an unethical act.

...snip...

No you are not - the Bible has been placed there by the Gideons for you. (If it is a Gideon Bible of course.). Many of them even have pages for you to write notes in, the Gideons want you to take the Bible, to use it.

hamelekim · 3rd November 2009, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

No you are not - the Bible has been placed their by the Gideons for you. (If it is a Gideon Bible of course.). Many of them even have pages for you to write notes in, the Gideons want you to take the Bible, to use it.

I don't know enough about those Bible to argue with you. I am surprised that you can just take the Bible. I thought that you could read it in the room, but that is all.

I have never personally seen a Bible in a hotel room, but I live in Canada, which is fairly agnostic when it comes to religion, compared to the US.

BobHaulk · 3rd November 2009, 02:26 AM

I always rip pages out of Lord of the Rings since it's clearly a pro homosexual text book

andycal · 3rd November 2009, 02:52 AM

As Darat says, these bibles are simply put there by the Gideons out of habit. A hotel is built, a pallet of bibles turns up next to the linen. The Gideons also supply bibles to schools, again, it's just because they always have (although ours provided a dictionary - w00T!).

But anyway, back to topic - I personally think this act only has a point if publicised in the media, I doubt anyone actually reads the thing. If I were a Christian then I'd probably have a bible with me or on my iPhone or something.

Hux · 3rd November 2009, 03:43 AM

I cant condone it but I can see why he'd get so angry.

If it was me Id go down to the reception and say, can I have some more toilet paper; that Leviticus stuff is rather harsh?

Marius vanderLubbe · 3rd November 2009, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Third Eye Open

Link:

Acceptable? Intolerant? Childish? Heroic?

I find it irritating that there are bibles laying around in hotels anyway, though I have never vandalized one. It actually never occurred to me to do it, but now I will probably toss it in the trash at least, they can always take it out if they want.

Well, it's certainly much more hygienic than what I do to them.

gtc · 3rd November 2009, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

If it was me Id go down to the reception and say, can I have some more toilet paper; that Leviticus stuff is rather harsh?

They'd say Levitic-who-now, then you'd have to explain the joke and then they's send you up a couple of extra rolls of toilet paper. Plus another bible. And a packet of laxatives. Because they still didn't understand.

whatthebutlersaw · 3rd November 2009, 05:18 AM

Gideons: the Ninja missionaries. *Bill Hicks*: "Has anyone ever seen a Gideon?"

As has been pointed out, the Gideon bibles are left for the occupants, not the hotel. It is the property of whoever chooses to see it as their property. With a bit of skill and patience, all that hate can be turned into beautiful origami.

On a different note: has anyone ever challenged the fact that Gideons actually leave, among other things, hate speeches in hotel rooms? In effect, that is what they are doing. Would it be acceptable to leave pamfletts inciting hate for other groups in society? I don't quite remember the passage, but doesn't it actually promote violence (in the form of stoning?)

Mark A. Siefert · 3rd November 2009, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw

Gideons: the Ninja missionaries. *Bill Hicks*: "Has anyone ever seen a Gideon?"

When I went to UW-Milwaukee, they would show up on campus once or twice a semester and take up positions at all of the entrances to the student union. You couldn't get in or out without one of them thrusting a bibble in your face.

The one distinguishing characteristic is that they all dressed like fracking Ward Cleaver. Hey, Ozzie Nelson! Harriet called to tell you that your watch is 40 years too slow!

joobz · 3rd November 2009, 06:16 AM

Unfortunately, for the Gideons, their hotel bible has become somewhat of an anachronism.
With the invention of closed circuit TV and pay-per-view, We no longer need the bible to fulfill the role of hotel masturbation material. (Ezekiel 23, at least the first half...)

Squid · 3rd November 2009, 06:18 AM

Every year at DragonCon there are Gideon Bibles tossed out of windows to land upon the roof of the hotel below.

Personally I don't agree with it, but that's just my feelings on the matter. It is not something I feel I should get excited over.

Blue Mountain · 3rd November 2009, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

I have never personally seen a Bible in a hotel room, but I live in Canada, which is fairly agnostic when it comes to religion, compared to the US.

Either you don't travel very much or you're not very curious. In most of the hotels and motels I've been in here in Canada, there's a bible tucked away in a drawer on the bedside table.

Ladewig · 3rd November 2009, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

So suppose you go into a hotel room and find a framed sign on the wall saying "AvalonXQ (or whatever your real name is) is an abomination and ought to be put to death", would you simply leave the sign where it was?

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Of course, there are differences between your hypothetical and the case in evidence, one of which is that I, like many people, find it especially repugnant to harm books (there are other conceptual differences, like the fact that the Bible quote is about a BEHAVIOR, not a PERSON, being an abomination, but that's probably too content-rich to get into here).

Then let's change the hypothetical to a book donated to all hotels that includes a passage saying "Christianity is an abomination and all Christians should be put to death." After all, Christianity is just a BEHAVIOR and not a PERSON. You wouldn't be the least bit tempted to destroy the page that calls for the widespread slaughter of innocent people?

StuBob · 3rd November 2009, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by LibraryLady

I recently left a copy of Godless next to a Gideon bible in a hotel. It gives me some pleasure fantasizing about what might happen to it.

That's great!
A colleague of mind was wondering if he could buy a bunch of paperback versions of Dawkins' "God Delusion" to leave in hotel rooms next to the bibles. We mulled over the cost of the venture and then forgot about it. Maybe Prof. Dawkins can eventually make a cheap, Gideonesque copy of his book! Athiests could don their coat/tie/nametag and hand them out 20 yards away from the Gideon fellas. Ah, fun times.

Ladewig · 3rd November 2009, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by hamelekim

I don't know enough about those Bible to argue with you. I am surprised that you can just take the Bible. I thought that you could read it in the room, but that is all.

The frontpiece of the book explains that guest may take the book without charge. Hotel maid carts include a stack of Bibles to replace any that are taken.

Originally Posted by hamelekim

I have never personally seen a Bible in a hotel room, but I live in Canada, which is fairly agnostic when it comes to religion, compared to the US.

I've been in only four hotel rooms in Canada, but each one had a Bible. It is worthwhile to check for a Bible. Sometimes religious people hide their money there thinking that thieves would never think to look there. I've heard unconfirmed stories that occasionally they forget their money and a subsequent occupant finds it.

cyborg · 3rd November 2009, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Either you don't travel very much or you're not very curious. In most of the hotels and motels I've been in here in Canada, there's a bible tucked away in a drawer on the bedside table.

It can vary - I found one in a student dorm I was staying in during the summer holidays whilst working (this is in the UK). I was a bit surprised by that. Never found one in a hotel though - stayed in some pretty random ones though.

Careyp74 · 3rd November 2009, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Yoink

I admire McKellan as an actor, but this strikes me as free publicity for the other side. If there were some society of rationalists who went around putting free copies of "Free Thought" literature in hotel rooms, what would we make of people who bragged about systematically defacing or vandalising those books?

I agree. It isn't right that the bible is forced on anyone, however, just leave it in the drawer. You don't have to drink the horrible instant coffee either, but it is there if you want it.

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2009, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Then let's change the hypothetical to a book donated to all hotels that includes a passage saying "Christianity is an abomination and all Christians should be put to death." After all, Christianity is just a BEHAVIOR and not a PERSON. You wouldn't be the least bit tempted to destroy the page that calls for the widespread slaughter of innocent people?

Not in the least.
I. Don't. Destroy. Books.
The solution to lies is not censorship, but the truth.

Ladewig · 3rd November 2009, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Not in the least.
I. Don't. Destroy. Books.
The solution to lies is not censorship, but the truth.

O.K. You don't believe in destroying books ever.

I am a bit confused about the last part of the post. Are you saying that calling for the execution of Christians is a lie? Is calling for the execution of homosexuals a lie, as well?

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2009, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I am a bit confused about the last part of the post. Are you saying that calling for the execution of Christians is a lie? Is calling for the execution of homosexuals a lie, as well?

One would assume that, if I disagree with it, then there must be faulty reasoning or falsehood involved in it for me to do so. (ETA: Or it's just an unsupported "call to action", in which case, "NUH UH!")
The proper response is to spread the truth. Basically the idea that some people have had of putting some OTHER book next to the Bibles would be the carrying out of that idea.

Ladewig · 3rd November 2009, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

One would assume that, if I disagree with it, then there must be faulty reasoning or falsehood involved in it for me to do so. (ETA: Or it's just an unsupported "call to action", in which case, "NUH UH!")
The proper response is to spread the truth. Basically the idea that some people have had of putting some OTHER book next to the Bibles would be the carrying out of that idea.

Now I understand what you were saying. The only question I have left is whether or not you consider a blanket condemnation of homosexuals to be an example of faulty reasoning that should be corrected by spreading the truth.

Simon39759 · 3rd November 2009, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Yes, but even crap hotels have bibles. Would the local motel really end up in the papers for not putting bibles in the room?

Apart from that, I find it difficult to believe that even O'Reilly could spin not accepting a bible into an anti-Christian agenda.

The Religious right has called for the boycott of corporation for using 'Holiday' rather than 'Christmas'.
I seem to recall O'Reilly supporting that but y check at Faux News has him refuting that, so I might have been wrong on mentioning him personally.

But, no, it seems to me like a very, very likely outcome if any chain was to refuse to distribute Bible.

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2009, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Simon39759

The Religious right has called for the boycott of corporation for using 'Holiday' rather than 'Christmas'.
I seem to recall O'Reilly supporting that but y check at Faux News has him refuting that, so I might have been wrong on mentioning him personally.

But, no, it seems to me like a very, very likely outcome if any chain was to refuse to distribute Bible.

I agree, and for the same reason. The "Merry Christmas" nonsense has shown that people will get up in arms over the silliest things.

billw · 3rd November 2009, 09:26 AM

So when Ian McKellen stays at a Marriott, does he rip Alma Chapter 39 from The Book of Mormon?

ZirconBlue · 3rd November 2009, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Simon39759

But, no, it seems to me like a very, very likely outcome if any chain was to refuse to distribute Bible.

It seems that the hotel-room bible is slowly becoming less ubiquitous:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/69049

slingblade · 3rd November 2009, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by billw

So when Ian McKellen stays at a Marriott, does he rip Alma Chapter 39 from The Book of Mormon?

I'm sure he would if the circumstances were the same as with the Gideon bibles, and if he could make the same point he's trying to make with the Gideons.

Wouldn't you expect so, too, or do you see some difference you haven't mentioned, but which you are hoping we are clever enough to divine?

Why don't you assume we're not clever? Spell it out for us.

six7s · 3rd November 2009, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by gtc

He may have evidence, but I doubt it.
<snip/>
We are on a skeptics board. We don't usually accept statments at face value.

Teh Irony... It BURNZ!

Originally Posted by gtc

Originally Posted by six7s

Do you have a point to make?

Yes. There is no evidence to suggest that Christians who are upset about someone tearing out pages from a bible would be 'lining up' to burn a pamphlett denouncing the bible's views on Homosexuality.

Huh? Your point is that you haven't found evidence for a possibility, therefore its impossible???

We are on a skeptics board. We don't usually dismiss a hypothesis just because it pushes us out of our comfort zone

Originally Posted by gtc

A google search for 'christians hate homosexuality' is not particularly relevant.

Maybe not...

However, I linked to a search on christians+hate+homosexuals... if you ~~think~~ want to pretend that's irrelevant, then good luck

Yoink · 3rd November 2009, 10:11 AM

The question of whether the Gideons encourage you to take the bible for your personal use seems to me to be utterly beside the point. The question, in my mind, is whether this is an act that is likely to further the cause that McKellan believes in or likely to hinder it. I can't see a single "anti gay rights" person being swayed to a "pro gay rights" position by this act. I can see some Christians who would otherwise take a "live and let live" approach becoming much more susceptible to the anti gay rights rhetoric that gay rights is part of a larger attack on 'religion' in general, however.

Imagine, for a second, that you were arguing over California's Prop 8 with someone who had been fed the (false) line about churches being forced to perform gay marriages against their will and children in schools being indoctrinated in gay marriage etc. Imagine that you're trying to persuade an undecided Christian voter in California to vote against Prop 8. Do you think the idea that "gay people rip up Bibles whenever they see them!" is going to help your case?

It would be far, far smarter for him to get a small pamphlet printed up that makes a solid and sensible case for gay rights in a pluralistic society (pointing out that the defense of gay rights is consistent with the defense of minority religious rights too, for example) and to slip that inside every Gideon's bible in the hotels he stays at. That might actually change someone's mind. This act of mindless vandalism certainly won't.

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2009, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Yoink

The question of whether the Gideons encourage you to take the bible for your personal use seems to me to be utterly beside the point. The question, in my mind, is whether this is an act that is likely to further the cause that McKellan believes in or likely to hinder it. I can't see a single "anti gay rights" person being swayed to a "pro gay rights" position by this act. I can see some Christians who would otherwise take a "live and let live" approach becoming much more susceptible to the anti gay rights rhetoric that gay rights is part of a larger attack on 'religion' in general, however.

This is exactly what happens.
Gay rights advocates have, through their actions, convinced a lot of people that their agenda is fundamentally anti-religion, and so must be opposed.

Darat · 3rd November 2009, 10:18 AM

I do like "blame the victim" rationalizations....

Marduk · 3rd November 2009, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Yoink

It would be far, far smarter for him to get a small pamphlet printed up that makes a solid and sensible case for gay rights in a pluralistic society .

so the fact that hes a founding member of Stonewall which has had huge success fighting for equal rights for LGBT and that he is a constant personal campaigner for same isn't relevant in this case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_McK...ts_campaigning
tearing up bibles makes him happy as a form of expression
that he does it makes me happy that he can express himself that way
does he need any more motivation ?

2nd November 2009, 08:32 PM	#41
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 2,007	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Why do hotels even put those in the room? Why not something useful? you wait til youre stuck in a hotel room with the galloping trots and no toilet paper before you go saying those tissue thin paper bibles arent useful
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

2nd November 2009, 08:59 PM	#43
tyr_13 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,512	Originally Posted by Simon39759 Certainly not. I would offer them gay porn; I am quite certain that they would refuse to put them into the rooms. But now consider. If they were to refuse to put Bible, odds are, the Gideon would report it to the media and, the next thing you know, O'Reilly would be calling to boycott this particular hostelry chain to protest their 'anti-Christian agenda'. Yes, but even crap hotels have bibles. Would the local motel really end up in the papers for not putting bibles in the room? Apart from that, I find it difficult to believe that even O'Reilly could spin not accepting a bible into an anti-Christian agenda.
tyr_13 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,512	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Look at the puppy...the puppy is good.

2nd November 2009, 09:40 PM	#44
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 6,801	Originally Posted by Simon39759 And, of course, the good Christians that are now crying over the vandalism would get in line to burn the 'evil gay propaganda'. You have no evidence for this.
	__________________

2nd November 2009, 09:46 PM	#45
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 6,801	tyr_13, They are donated. I doubt it costs them anything other than to drop them into the rooms. Originally Posted by Simon39759 Certainly not. I would offer them gay porn; I am quite certain that they would refuse to put them into the rooms. But now consider. If they were to refuse to put Bible, odds are, the Gideon would report it to the media and, the next thing you know, O'Reilly would be calling to boycott this particular hostelry chain to protest their 'anti-Christian agenda'. You are free to organise a boycott of any hotel that refuses to distribute your gay porn on your behalf.
	__________________

3rd November 2009, 12:13 AM	#46
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 7,768	Originally Posted by gtc Originally Posted by Simon39759 And, of course, the good Christians that are now crying over the vandalism would get in line to burn the 'evil gay propaganda'. You have no evidence for this. Without asking, you have no way of knowing one way or another OK... so Simon39759 has yet to furnish evidence of such behaviour So what? Do you have a point to make? Going by the despicable acts of ignorance-fueled hatred that are routinely perpetrated by those filled with teh l0v3 of teh j3sus, I think that its quite likely that evidence does (or will soon) exist
	__________________ This post is copyleft and may include tyops and/or fallacies and/or grammatical errors like ending a sentence with a preposition - something up with which some will not put Copyright today is a system inflicted on the public, not a system that benefits the public. Richard Stallman - Founder of the GNU Project Last edited by six7s; 3rd November 2009 at 12:13 AM. Reason: tyop

2nd November 2009, 08:37 PM	#42
Simon39759 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,020	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Several years ago I thought about making a hotmail account for the sole purpose of leaving it on cards in the hotel Bibles. I was curious how many people would email. Why do hotels even put those in the room? Why not something useful? Would they put any book in their rooms that someone donated to them? Certainly not. I would offer them gay porn; I am quite certain that they would refuse to put them into the rooms. But now consider. If they were to refuse to put Bible, odds are, the Gideon would report it to the media and, the next thing you know, O'Reilly would be calling to boycott this particular hostelry chain to protest their 'anti-Christian agenda'.

3rd November 2009, 12:54 AM	#47
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 6,801	Originally Posted by six7s Without asking, you have no way of knowing one way or another Are you saying that I have no idea whether he has evidence or whether his allegation is true? He may have evidence, but I doubt it. Originally Posted by six7s OK... so Simon39759 has yet to furnish evidence of such behaviour So what? We are on a skeptics board. We don't usually accept statments at face value. Originally Posted by six7s Do you have a point to make? Yes. There is no evidence to suggest that Christians who are upset about someone tearing out pages from a bible would be 'lining up' to burn a pamphlett denouncing the bible's views on Homosexuality. Originally Posted by six7s Going by the despicable acts of ignorance-fueled hatred that are routinely perpetrated by those filled with teh l0v3 of teh j3sus, I think that its quite likely that evidence does (or will soon) exist A google search for 'christians hate homosexuality' is not particularly relevant.
	__________________

3rd November 2009, 01:47 AM	#48
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Destroying private property is wrong, period. If you destroy a Bible in a hotel room, or damage it purposefully you are engaging in an unethical act. If you want to purchase a Bible and destroy it, go ahead. I disagree with that behavior, just as I disagree with book burning of any kind, but it's your free right to do so.

3rd November 2009, 01:55 AM	#49
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,901	Originally Posted by tyr_13 ...snip... Why do hotels even put those in the room? Why not something useful? Would they put any book in their rooms that someone donated to them? Habit.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

3rd November 2009, 02:00 AM	#50
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,901	Originally Posted by hamelekim Destroying private property is wrong, period. If you destroy a Bible in a hotel room, or damage it purposefully you are engaging in an unethical act. ...snip... No you are not - the Bible has been placed there by the Gideons for you. (If it is a Gideon Bible of course.). Many of them even have pages for you to write notes in, the Gideons want you to take the Bible, to use it.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008 Last edited by Darat; 3rd November 2009 at 03:49 AM. Reason: Removed an embarrassment but not before it was noted by others...

3rd November 2009, 02:04 AM	#51
hamelekim Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,134	Originally Posted by Darat No you are not - the Bible has been placed their by the Gideons for you. (If it is a Gideon Bible of course.). Many of them even have pages for you to write notes in, the Gideons want you to take the Bible, to use it. I don't know enough about those Bible to argue with you. I am surprised that you can just take the Bible. I thought that you could read it in the room, but that is all. I have never personally seen a Bible in a hotel room, but I live in Canada, which is fairly agnostic when it comes to religion, compared to the US.

3rd November 2009, 02:26 AM	#52
BobHaulk Student Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 43	I always rip pages out of Lord of the Rings since it's clearly a pro homosexual text book
BobHaulk Student Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 43

3rd November 2009, 02:52 AM	#53
andycal Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 368	As Darat says, these bibles are simply put there by the Gideons out of habit. A hotel is built, a pallet of bibles turns up next to the linen. The Gideons also supply bibles to schools, again, it's just because they always have (although ours provided a dictionary - w00T!). But anyway, back to topic - I personally think this act only has a point if publicised in the media, I doubt anyone actually reads the thing. If I were a Christian then I'd probably have a bible with me or on my iPhone or something.
andycal Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 368	__________________ Sorry, can't I just publicise my web design Birmingham ? I know it's blatent but I don't have a god so I have no morals.

3rd November 2009, 03:43 AM	#54
Hux Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 749	I cant condone it but I can see why he'd get so angry. If it was me Id go down to the reception and say, can I have some more toilet paper; that Leviticus stuff is rather harsh?
Hux Muse Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 749

3rd November 2009, 04:09 AM	#55
Marius vanderLubbe Student Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Nullabor Plain, Australia. Posts: 49	Originally Posted by Third Eye Open Link: Acceptable? Intolerant? Childish? Heroic? I find it irritating that there are bibles laying around in hotels anyway, though I have never vandalized one. It actually never occurred to me to do it, but now I will probably toss it in the trash at least, they can always take it out if they want. Well, it's certainly much more hygienic than what I do to them.

3rd November 2009, 04:45 AM	#56
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 6,801	Originally Posted by Hux If it was me Id go down to the reception and say, can I have some more toilet paper; that Leviticus stuff is rather harsh? They'd say Levitic-who-now, then you'd have to explain the joke and then they's send you up a couple of extra rolls of toilet paper. Plus another bible. And a packet of laxatives. Because they still didn't understand.
	__________________

3rd November 2009, 05:18 AM	#57
whatthebutlersaw Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 417	Gideons: the Ninja missionaries. Bill Hicks: "Has anyone ever seen a Gideon?" As has been pointed out, the Gideon bibles are left for the occupants, not the hotel. It is the property of whoever chooses to see it as their property. With a bit of skill and patience, all that hate can be turned into beautiful origami. On a different note: has anyone ever challenged the fact that Gideons actually leave, among other things, hate speeches in hotel rooms? In effect, that is what they are doing. Would it be acceptable to leave pamfletts inciting hate for other groups in society? I don't quite remember the passage, but doesn't it actually promote violence (in the form of stoning?)

3rd November 2009, 06:02 AM	#58
Mark A. Siefert Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 2,959	Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw Gideons: the Ninja missionaries. Bill Hicks: "Has anyone ever seen a Gideon?" When I went to UW-Milwaukee, they would show up on campus once or twice a semester and take up positions at all of the entrances to the student union. You couldn't get in or out without one of them thrusting a bibble in your face. The one distinguishing characteristic is that they all dressed like fracking Ward Cleaver. Hey, Ozzie Nelson! Harriet called to tell you that your watch is 40 years too slow!
	__________________ No Gods! No Masters! Mark A. SIefert

3rd November 2009, 06:16 AM	#59
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Inside the Magical Murder Bag Posts: 11,154	Unfortunately, for the Gideons, their hotel bible has become somewhat of an anachronism. With the invention of closed circuit TV and pay-per-view, We no longer need the bible to fulfill the role of hotel masturbation material. (Ezekiel 23, at least the first half...)
	__________________ "Joobz you can be something else sometimes."- DOC

3rd November 2009, 06:18 AM	#60
Squid New Blood Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 14	Every year at DragonCon there are Gideon Bibles tossed out of windows to land upon the roof of the hotel below. Personally I don't agree with it, but that's just my feelings on the matter. It is not something I feel I should get excited over.
Squid New Blood Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 14

3rd November 2009, 06:26 AM	#61
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 1,639	Originally Posted by hamelekim I have never personally seen a Bible in a hotel room, but I live in Canada, which is fairly agnostic when it comes to religion, compared to the US. Either you don't travel very much or you're not very curious. In most of the hotels and motels I've been in here in Canada, there's a bible tucked away in a drawer on the bedside table.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum. Last edited by Blue Mountain; 3rd November 2009 at 06:28 AM. Reason: Quote the correct post

3rd November 2009, 06:29 AM	#62
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,561	Originally Posted by Robin So suppose you go into a hotel room and find a framed sign on the wall saying "AvalonXQ (or whatever your real name is) is an abomination and ought to be put to death", would you simply leave the sign where it was? Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Of course, there are differences between your hypothetical and the case in evidence, one of which is that I, like many people, find it especially repugnant to harm books (there are other conceptual differences, like the fact that the Bible quote is about a BEHAVIOR, not a PERSON, being an abomination, but that's probably too content-rich to get into here). Then let's change the hypothetical to a book donated to all hotels that includes a passage saying "Christianity is an abomination and all Christians should be put to death." After all, Christianity is just a BEHAVIOR and not a PERSON. You wouldn't be the least bit tempted to destroy the page that calls for the widespread slaughter of innocent people?
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?"

3rd November 2009, 06:33 AM	#63
StuBob Student Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 27	Originally Posted by LibraryLady I recently left a copy of Godless next to a Gideon bible in a hotel. It gives me some pleasure fantasizing about what might happen to it. That's great! A colleague of mind was wondering if he could buy a bunch of paperback versions of Dawkins' "God Delusion" to leave in hotel rooms next to the bibles. We mulled over the cost of the venture and then forgot about it. Maybe Prof. Dawkins can eventually make a cheap, Gideonesque copy of his book! Athiests could don their coat/tie/nametag and hand them out 20 yards away from the Gideon fellas. Ah, fun times.
StuBob Student Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 27

3rd November 2009, 06:34 AM	#64
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,561	Originally Posted by hamelekim I don't know enough about those Bible to argue with you. I am surprised that you can just take the Bible. I thought that you could read it in the room, but that is all. The frontpiece of the book explains that guest may take the book without charge. Hotel maid carts include a stack of Bibles to replace any that are taken. Originally Posted by hamelekim I have never personally seen a Bible in a hotel room, but I live in Canada, which is fairly agnostic when it comes to religion, compared to the US. I've been in only four hotel rooms in Canada, but each one had a Bible. It is worthwhile to check for a Bible. Sometimes religious people hide their money there thinking that thieves would never think to look there. I've heard unconfirmed stories that occasionally they forget their money and a subsequent occupant finds it.
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?"

3rd November 2009, 06:39 AM	#65
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,351	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Either you don't travel very much or you're not very curious. In most of the hotels and motels I've been in here in Canada, there's a bible tucked away in a drawer on the bedside table. It can vary - I found one in a student dorm I was staying in during the summer holidays whilst working (this is in the UK). I was a bit surprised by that. Never found one in a hotel though - stayed in some pretty random ones though.
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,351	__________________ The phrase deus ex machina (literally "god out of a machine") describes an unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot...

3rd November 2009, 06:42 AM	#66
Careyp74 Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Trevose, PA Posts: 1,357	Originally Posted by Yoink I admire McKellan as an actor, but this strikes me as free publicity for the other side. If there were some society of rationalists who went around putting free copies of "Free Thought" literature in hotel rooms, what would we make of people who bragged about systematically defacing or vandalising those books? I agree. It isn't right that the bible is forced on anyone, however, just leave it in the drawer. You don't have to drink the horrible instant coffee either, but it is there if you want it.

3rd November 2009, 07:38 AM	#67
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750	Originally Posted by Ladewig Then let's change the hypothetical to a book donated to all hotels that includes a passage saying "Christianity is an abomination and all Christians should be put to death." After all, Christianity is just a BEHAVIOR and not a PERSON. You wouldn't be the least bit tempted to destroy the page that calls for the widespread slaughter of innocent people? Not in the least. I. Don't. Destroy. Books. The solution to lies is not censorship, but the truth.
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750

3rd November 2009, 07:46 AM	#68
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,561	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Not in the least. I. Don't. Destroy. Books. The solution to lies is not censorship, but the truth. O.K. You don't believe in destroying books ever. I am a bit confused about the last part of the post. Are you saying that calling for the execution of Christians is a lie? Is calling for the execution of homosexuals a lie, as well?
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?"

3rd November 2009, 07:52 AM	#69
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750	Originally Posted by Ladewig I am a bit confused about the last part of the post. Are you saying that calling for the execution of Christians is a lie? Is calling for the execution of homosexuals a lie, as well? One would assume that, if I disagree with it, then there must be faulty reasoning or falsehood involved in it for me to do so. (ETA: Or it's just an unsupported "call to action", in which case, "NUH UH!") The proper response is to spread the truth. Basically the idea that some people have had of putting some OTHER book next to the Bibles would be the carrying out of that idea.
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750

3rd November 2009, 08:12 AM	#70
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,561	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ One would assume that, if I disagree with it, then there must be faulty reasoning or falsehood involved in it for me to do so. (ETA: Or it's just an unsupported "call to action", in which case, "NUH UH!") The proper response is to spread the truth. Basically the idea that some people have had of putting some OTHER book next to the Bibles would be the carrying out of that idea. Now I understand what you were saying. The only question I have left is whether or not you consider a blanket condemnation of homosexuals to be an example of faulty reasoning that should be corrected by spreading the truth.
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?"

3rd November 2009, 08:22 AM	#71
Simon39759 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,020	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Yes, but even crap hotels have bibles. Would the local motel really end up in the papers for not putting bibles in the room? Apart from that, I find it difficult to believe that even O'Reilly could spin not accepting a bible into an anti-Christian agenda. The Religious right has called for the boycott of corporation for using 'Holiday' rather than 'Christmas'. I seem to recall O'Reilly supporting that but y check at Faux News has him refuting that, so I might have been wrong on mentioning him personally. But, no, it seems to me like a very, very likely outcome if any chain was to refuse to distribute Bible.

3rd November 2009, 08:24 AM	#72
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750	Originally Posted by Simon39759 The Religious right has called for the boycott of corporation for using 'Holiday' rather than 'Christmas'. I seem to recall O'Reilly supporting that but y check at Faux News has him refuting that, so I might have been wrong on mentioning him personally. But, no, it seems to me like a very, very likely outcome if any chain was to refuse to distribute Bible. I agree, and for the same reason. The "Merry Christmas" nonsense has shown that people will get up in arms over the silliest things.
AvalonXQ Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 750

3rd November 2009, 09:26 AM	#73
billw Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Far North Glendale Posts: 146	So when Ian McKellen stays at a Marriott, does he rip Alma Chapter 39 from The Book of Mormon?
	__________________ I may be going to hell in a bucket But at least I'm enjoying the ride. -- John Perry Barlow

3rd November 2009, 09:46 AM	#74
ZirconBlue Your Last Cup of Sorrow Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Zebulon, North Carolina Posts: 3,896	Originally Posted by Simon39759 But, no, it seems to me like a very, very likely outcome if any chain was to refuse to distribute Bible. It seems that the hotel-room bible is slowly becoming less ubiquitous: http://www.newsweek.com/id/69049
	__________________ "It's always best to be offended by things you haven't read. That way you keep your mind uncluttered by things that might change it." - Neil Gaiman ". . . you should still always try to be fair to people's stupid beliefs." - UserGoogol

3rd November 2009, 09:49 AM	#75
slingblade 63% similar to you Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In This Fog, Who Knows? Posts: 13,123	Originally Posted by billw So when Ian McKellen stays at a Marriott, does he rip Alma Chapter 39 from The Book of Mormon? I'm sure he would if the circumstances were the same as with the Gideon bibles, and if he could make the same point he's trying to make with the Gideons. Wouldn't you expect so, too, or do you see some difference you haven't mentioned, but which you are hoping we are clever enough to divine? Why don't you assume we're not clever? Spell it out for us.
	__________________ It's the holiday season, and you know what that means...Time to buy crap you don't need for people you don't like! Shop me! http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f1..._jewelrycraft/