Discussing Topics From A Different Point Of View?

Eyeron · 2nd November 2009, 06:02 PM

Have you ever tried discussing any given topic from a viewpoint other than your own? In a formal debate, would you? Even if there was no incentive to, such as say earning a grade on a classroom assignment?

Here's the kind of thing I mean. let's say you're very supportive of a woman's rights to have an abortion.

Would you argue from a pro-life point of view? From a religious pro-life point of view?

So, have you ever done this kind of thing with any other kind of topic? I think the idea does have some merit to it. Because reading about opposing points of view is one thing, but, when discussing any given topic from any opposing view or other views than your own could be akin to walking a mile in another man's shoes, and that can in some cases lead to greater understanding of other people.

quixotecoyote · 2nd November 2009, 06:10 PM

Not on forums. In real life I'll take an unrepresented side if my friends are all agreeing with each other about something and I'm in a pot-stirring mood.

qayak · 2nd November 2009, 06:17 PM

When debating in highschool you argued whichever viewpoint you were given and they were often contrary to my own beliefs.

I will often argue another position simply because I think it has some merit and should be kept in mind during the discussion.

Homemade psycho · 2nd November 2009, 06:35 PM

I have a 20 minutes presentation arguing FOR the presence of aliens on earth next week.Not the side I'm used to.

Hux · 4th November 2009, 03:49 AM

I used to do that at school and have often wondered what it would be like to take your contrary position and be an apologist. I am not sure I could keep a straight face over certain subjects and would end up sounding like Hamelekim.

But I could work on the sincerity thing.

Darat · 4th November 2009, 03:52 AM

I do sometimes "play the devil's advocate", more so when I am trying to make my mind up about something, I find it helps me to consider the argument from other sides and directions.

Devil's Advocate: "Oh and we do have a tag if you ever want to make it clear that you are playing devil's advocate."

[da]Oh and we do have a tag if you ever want to make it clear that you are playing devil's advocate.[/da]

A.A.Alfie · 4th November 2009, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I do sometimes "play the devil's advocate", more so when I am trying to make my mind up about something, I find it helps me to consider the argument from other sides and directions.

Devil's Advocate: "Oh and we do have a tag if you ever want to make it clear that you are playing devil's advocate."

[da]Oh and we do have a tag if you ever want to make it clear that you are playing devil's advocate.[/da]

Me too.
Where and how is this tag used?

Darat · 4th November 2009, 04:02 AM

Enclose your text with: [da][/da]

A.A.Alfie · 4th November 2009, 04:07 AM

Devil's Advocate: "like this?"

Hux · 4th November 2009, 04:15 AM

Go on then. Pretend to be a mindless Christian with all the hatred and idiocy they harbour. Its not easy, even in quotes.

A.A.Alfie · 4th November 2009, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Go on then. Pretend to be a mindless Christian with all the hatred and idiocy they harbour. Its not easy, even in quotes.

Huh?

drkitten · 4th November 2009, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Eyeron

Have you ever tried discussing any given topic from a viewpoint other than your own?

Routinely. It's part and parcel of learned discourse. "It has been argued (cite, cite) that [such and such], based on the findings of (cite). We show, however, that this argument fails due to [weakness] and that a more proper analysis shows that [whatever]."

The problem, of course, is that it's quite difficult to do, and it gets much more difficult the less merit the opposing viewpoint has.

For example, there is literally no merit whatsoever to creationism, nor to nihilist postmodernism, nor to Biblical literalism. Only by willful and deliberate ignorance can anyone hold those positions.

There are a lot of political positions that are almost equally vacuous -- for example, there is no evidence-based opposition to gay marriage.

Hokulele · 4th November 2009, 01:32 PM

Is there any gay opposition to evidence-based marriage?

Robin · 5th November 2009, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

There are a lot of political positions that are almost equally vacuous -- for example, there is no evidence-based opposition to gay marriage.

It has been amusing to listen to people struggle to produce a rational reason for this opposition.

I have heard that we need to "protect" the institution of marriage because it is vital to maintaining the stability of society and ensure the future of the species, one person describing marriage as an "efficient futures exchange for fertility".

And silly me thinking that marriage had something to do with two people loving each other and wanting to spend their lives together.

Robin · 5th November 2009, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Eyeron

Have you ever tried discussing any given topic from a viewpoint other than your own? In a formal debate, would you? Even if there was no incentive to, such as say earning a grade on a classroom assignment?

Here's the kind of thing I mean. let's say you're very supportive of a woman's rights to have an abortion.

Would you argue from a pro-life point of view? From a religious pro-life point of view?

So, have you ever done this kind of thing with any other kind of topic? I think the idea does have some merit to it. Because reading about opposing points of view is one thing, but, when discussing any given topic from any opposing view or other views than your own could be akin to walking a mile in another man's shoes, and that can in some cases lead to greater understanding of other people.

When I first joined the old "Church of Critical Thinking" forum, the debate was about "Intelligent Design" and I was trying to point out that poorly thought out attacks on the position were counter-productive and only played into the hands of the ID camp.

However everybody immediately assumed I was a creationist and started treating me as such - saying things like "Well at least I don't want people to go to Hell" to me.

I assumed the role with relish and started making all the usual ID apologetics.

After that no-one on the site ever quite trusted that I was not a fundie and I have some sympathy for Theists on this site when they talk about the hostility they say they encounter here.

Robin · 5th November 2009, 09:34 PM

I wonder if anyone has tried the more extreme technique of trying to really sympathise with an opposing view, to really feel that it is true - especially a view you loathe?

Egg · 5th November 2009, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

I wonder if anyone has tried the more extreme technique of trying to really sympathise with an opposing view, to really feel that it is true - especially a view you loathe?

What a pointless waste of time. Why would you want to sink your mind down to the level of the idiots who believe in that kind of nonsense? It's far better to spend the time and effort finding evidence and working on stronger arguments against things you don't believe in.

da-da!

Hmm...it's kind of liberating. Actually, I think it's a great exercise and can make you look at some of the arguments you do make in a different way. I don't think the idea is to try to repeat the same idiotic arguments which irritate you (

Hux), but to try to make decent arguments for the opposition.

Robin · 6th November 2009, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Egg

What a pointless waste of time. Why would you want to sink your mind down to the level of the idiots who believe in that kind of nonsense? It's far better to spend the time and effort finding evidence and working on stronger arguments against things you don't believe in.

da-da!

I consider myself zinged.

Robin · 6th November 2009, 04:37 AM

But yes it is often liberating - it is often enlightening. But sometimes it is a bit scary.

arthwollipot · 6th November 2009, 04:42 AM

I've occasionally put on a creationist hat for the sake of argument, but it isn't easy.

P.J. Denyer · 6th November 2009, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Go on then. Pretend to be a mindless Christian with all the hatred and idiocy they harbour. Its not easy, even in quotes.

Devil's Advocate: "The all powerfull Baby Jesus loves you so much that he's going to send you to Hell to burn for all eternity although he'd rather you didn't and its your own fault."

Good enough or have I used too much/little punctuation and capitalisation?

arthwollipot · 6th November 2009, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Go on then. Pretend to be a mindless Christian with all the hatred and idiocy they harbour. Its not easy, even in quotes.

You're assuming here that all Christians are mindless, and harbour hatred and idiocy. This is demonstrably not the case, and in fact is an offensive stereotype.

Beerina · 6th November 2009, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Homemade psycho

I have a 20 minutes presentation arguing FOR the presence of aliens on earth next week.Not the side I'm used to.

I suggest finishing up with a very brief panspermia sentence, ending with "So there may be aliens on Earth, and they is us!"

"is" instead of "are".

blutoski · 6th November 2009, 03:01 PM

Part of critical thinking involves getting into the opponent's frame of mind. There are five benefits that I can think of:

assists with [Principle of Charity]
reduces risk of [Straw Person]
understanding the argument and the arguer's colleagues increases the chance of producing an effective argument that will have genuine impact ([Rhetoric])
the purpose of a debate is to get closer to the truth - not to 'win' (reduces [Sophistry])
opponent may be right - the sooner you identify this, the better

blutoski · 6th November 2009, 03:07 PM

Oh, also: there's something to be said for parody.

I've done healthfraud lectures in the persona of a quack. ("Results: five dead, and fifty missing... um... presumed cured.")

We had a presenter at Vancouver Skepticamp in 2008 that posed as a new age guru to educate us on the geology of quartz crystals.

Pure_Argent · 6th November 2009, 11:21 PM

I once tried arguing in favor of YEC when an argument about it broke out in my biology class. The other kids couldn't figure out why I broke off mid-sentence and slumped over the desk laughing.

six7s · 8th November 2009, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

You're assuming here that all Christians are mindless, and harbour hatred and idiocy. This is demonstrably not the case, and in fact is an offensive stereotype.

Yeah! Cool, huh?

[derail]

[/derail]

arthwollipot · 12th November 2009, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by six7s

Yeah! Cool, huh?

[derail]

[/derail]

But Christianity has inspired heights of intellectualism, not to mention art. All of the great European discoveries, from heliocentrism to planetary motion to the inverse square law of gravitational attraction, were made by Christians. Christians to this day participate in the intellectual betterment of society by continuing to make scientific discoveries.

Um, and art!

six7s · 12th November 2009, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

But Christianity has inspired heights of intellectualism

Cultural christians? Yes...

Philosophical christians? Please name them

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

not to mention art.

OK... don't mention it

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

All of the great European discoveries, from heliocentrism to planetary motion to the inverse square law of gravitational attraction, were made by Christians.

And this negates what, for instance? That "identifying/practicing as a christian, they are (were) passively promoting a culture of mindless hatred and idiocy."?

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Christians to this day participate in the intellectual betterment of society by continuing to make scientific discoveries.

Correlation != Causation

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Um, and art!

I thought you said to not mention it

Praktik · 12th November 2009, 05:50 AM

I argued for the existence of genuine ETs and UFOs in class in a debate format.... swung a LOT of people from "NO" to "undecided"..

Mashuna · 12th November 2009, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I've occasionally put on a creationist hat for the sake of argument, but it isn't easy.

Too small?

Hokulele · 12th November 2009, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mashuna

Too small?

Too bum-like.

Robin · 12th November 2009, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

But Christianity has inspired heights of intellectualism, not to mention art. All of the great European discoveries, from heliocentrism to planetary motion to the inverse square law of gravitational attraction, were made by Christians.

And it is not simply the fact that they were Christians, but also the fact that Christian institutions were providing the resources and encouragement for intellectual achievement.

People remember Galileo but forget Copernicus, Oresme, Nicolas of Cusa, Roger Bacon, Roger Grosseteste...

Oresme was one of the early proponents of the idea that the apparent movement of the Sun could be a function of the rotation of the Earth. As he came from a poor family it is unlikely that he could have developed and disseminated this idea through any other channel but the Church.

six7s · 12th November 2009, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

And it is not simply the fact that they were Christians, but also the fact that Christian institutions were providing the resources and encouragement for intellectual achievement.

People remember Galileo...

People might forget that those with the power/control of resources are key decision makers in the funding of research and that - for centuries - money and the Vatican have been inextricably intertwined...

wikipedia.org House of Medici

Quote:

The House of Medici was a political dynasty, banking family and later royal house who first began to gather prominence under Cosimo de' Medici in the Republic of Florence during the late 14th century. The family originated in the Mugello region of the Tuscan countryside, gradually rising until they were able to found the Medici Bank. The bank was the largest in Europe during the 15th century, seeing the Medici gain political power in Florence — though officially they remained simply citizens, rather than monarchs. The Medici produced 4[3] Popes of the Catholic Church and in 1531 the family became hereditary Dukes of Florence.

<snip/>

Their collective regency is known as the Turtici. Maria Maddelana's temperament was analogous to Christina's. Together, they aligned Tuscany with the Papacy; re-doubled the Tuscan clergy; and allowed the trial of Galileo Galilei to occur.

Piscivore · 12th November 2009, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

It has been amusing to listen to people struggle to produce a rational reason for this opposition.

I have heard that we need to "protect" the institution of marriage because it is vital to maintaining the stability of society and ensure the future of the species, one person describing marriage as an "efficient futures exchange for fertility".

Hell, my brother's heterosexual first wife has done more damage to the "institution of marriage" than all the gay people I know of. She's on her third husband, and has had kids with all.

six7s · 12th November 2009, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

Hell, my brother's heterosexual first wife has done more damage to the "institution of marriage" than all the gay people I know of. She's on her third husband, and has had kids with all.

Sounds like she's following an edict from the Jeb Bush Institution of Marriage:Marry early and marry often!

dlorde · 12th November 2009, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

I wonder if anyone has tried the more extreme technique of trying to really sympathise with an opposing view, to really feel that it is true - especially a view you loathe?

I often can't sympathise, but I can and do try to empathise - to try to figure out why the person might feel that way. I don't believe you can productively argue with someone unless you have some understanding of their point of view. Unproductive argument is trivial.

A.A.Alfie · 12th November 2009, 11:21 PM

seek to understand before you seek to be understood

arthwollipot · 13th November 2009, 04:08 AM

Deep.

A.A.Alfie · 13th November 2009, 04:49 AM

From "Seven habits of highly effective people"

2nd November 2009, 06:02 PM	#1
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774	Discussing Topics From A Different Point Of View? Have you ever tried discussing any given topic from a viewpoint other than your own? In a formal debate, would you? Even if there was no incentive to, such as say earning a grade on a classroom assignment? Here's the kind of thing I mean. let's say you're very supportive of a woman's rights to have an abortion. Would you argue from a pro-life point of view? From a religious pro-life point of view? So, have you ever done this kind of thing with any other kind of topic? I think the idea does have some merit to it. Because reading about opposing points of view is one thing, but, when discussing any given topic from any opposing view or other views than your own could be akin to walking a mile in another man's shoes, and that can in some cases lead to greater understanding of other people.
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774

2nd November 2009, 06:10 PM	#2
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,300	Not on forums. In real life I'll take an unrepresented side if my friends are all agreeing with each other about something and I'm in a pot-stirring mood.
	__________________ Ladewig: I'll start worrying about the media's liberal bias the day I hear of labor negotiations described as management demands and union concessions. Thank you for the avatar xkcd.

2nd November 2009, 06:17 PM	#3
qayak Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,297	When debating in highschool you argued whichever viewpoint you were given and they were often contrary to my own beliefs. I will often argue another position simply because I think it has some merit and should be kept in mind during the discussion.
qayak Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,297	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

2nd November 2009, 06:35 PM	#4
Homemade psycho Scholar Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 80	I have a 20 minutes presentation arguing FOR the presence of aliens on earth next week.Not the side I'm used to.
Homemade psycho Scholar Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 80	Last edited by Homemade psycho; 2nd November 2009 at 06:37 PM.

4th November 2009, 03:49 AM	#5
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	I used to do that at school and have often wondered what it would be like to take your contrary position and be an apologist. I am not sure I could keep a straight face over certain subjects and would end up sounding like Hamelekim. But I could work on the sincerity thing.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

4th November 2009, 03:52 AM	#6
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,690	I do sometimes "play the devil's advocate", more so when I am trying to make my mind up about something, I find it helps me to consider the argument from other sides and directions. Devil's Advocate: "Oh and we do have a tag if you ever want to make it clear that you are playing devil's advocate." [da]Oh and we do have a tag if you ever want to make it clear that you are playing devil's advocate.[/da]
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

4th November 2009, 03:59 AM	#7
A.A.Alfie Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,113	Originally Posted by Darat I do sometimes "play the devil's advocate", more so when I am trying to make my mind up about something, I find it helps me to consider the argument from other sides and directions. Devil's Advocate: "Oh and we do have a tag if you ever want to make it clear that you are playing devil's advocate." [da]Oh and we do have a tag if you ever want to make it clear that you are playing devil's advocate.[/da] Me too. Where and how is this tag used?
	__________________ “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong". Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

4th November 2009, 04:02 AM	#8
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,690	Enclose your text with: [da][/da]
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

4th November 2009, 04:07 AM	#9
A.A.Alfie Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,113	Devil's Advocate: "like this?"
	Last edited by A.A.Alfie; 4th November 2009 at 04:09 AM.

4th November 2009, 04:15 AM	#10
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Go on then. Pretend to be a mindless Christian with all the hatred and idiocy they harbour. Its not easy, even in quotes.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

4th November 2009, 04:18 AM	#11
A.A.Alfie Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,113	Originally Posted by Hux Go on then. Pretend to be a mindless Christian with all the hatred and idiocy they harbour. Its not easy, even in quotes. Huh?
	__________________ “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong". Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

4th November 2009, 01:27 PM	#12
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 17,338	Originally Posted by Eyeron Have you ever tried discussing any given topic from a viewpoint other than your own? Routinely. It's part and parcel of learned discourse. "It has been argued (cite, cite) that [such and such], based on the findings of (cite). We show, however, that this argument fails due to [weakness] and that a more proper analysis shows that [whatever]." The problem, of course, is that it's quite difficult to do, and it gets much more difficult the less merit the opposing viewpoint has. For example, there is literally no merit whatsoever to creationism, nor to nihilist postmodernism, nor to Biblical literalism. Only by willful and deliberate ignorance can anyone hold those positions. There are a lot of political positions that are almost equally vacuous -- for example, there is no evidence-based opposition to gay marriage.

4th November 2009, 01:32 PM	#13
Hokulele Official Nemesis TLA Dictatrix Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: To be determined. Posts: 21,340	Is there any gay opposition to evidence-based marriage?
	__________________ You, madam, do not appear to be bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of us. - JoeyDonuts You should listen to the evil one - Don't try to understand it, just experience it. - AJM8125

5th November 2009, 09:10 PM	#14
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	Originally Posted by drkitten There are a lot of political positions that are almost equally vacuous -- for example, there is no evidence-based opposition to gay marriage. It has been amusing to listen to people struggle to produce a rational reason for this opposition. I have heard that we need to "protect" the institution of marriage because it is vital to maintaining the stability of society and ensure the future of the species, one person describing marriage as an "efficient futures exchange for fertility". And silly me thinking that marriage had something to do with two people loving each other and wanting to spend their lives together.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776

5th November 2009, 09:20 PM	#15
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	Originally Posted by Eyeron Have you ever tried discussing any given topic from a viewpoint other than your own? In a formal debate, would you? Even if there was no incentive to, such as say earning a grade on a classroom assignment? Here's the kind of thing I mean. let's say you're very supportive of a woman's rights to have an abortion. Would you argue from a pro-life point of view? From a religious pro-life point of view? So, have you ever done this kind of thing with any other kind of topic? I think the idea does have some merit to it. Because reading about opposing points of view is one thing, but, when discussing any given topic from any opposing view or other views than your own could be akin to walking a mile in another man's shoes, and that can in some cases lead to greater understanding of other people. When I first joined the old "Church of Critical Thinking" forum, the debate was about "Intelligent Design" and I was trying to point out that poorly thought out attacks on the position were counter-productive and only played into the hands of the ID camp. However everybody immediately assumed I was a creationist and started treating me as such - saying things like "Well at least I don't want people to go to Hell" to me. I assumed the role with relish and started making all the usual ID apologetics. After that no-one on the site ever quite trusted that I was not a fundie and I have some sympathy for Theists on this site when they talk about the hostility they say they encounter here.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776

5th November 2009, 09:34 PM	#16
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	I wonder if anyone has tried the more extreme technique of trying to really sympathise with an opposing view, to really feel that it is true - especially a view you loathe?
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776

5th November 2009, 09:49 PM	#17
Egg Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 720	Originally Posted by Robin I wonder if anyone has tried the more extreme technique of trying to really sympathise with an opposing view, to really feel that it is true - especially a view you loathe? What a pointless waste of time. Why would you want to sink your mind down to the level of the idiots who believe in that kind of nonsense? It's far better to spend the time and effort finding evidence and working on stronger arguments against things you don't believe in. da-da! Hmm...it's kind of liberating. Actually, I think it's a great exercise and can make you look at some of the arguments you do make in a different way. I don't think the idea is to try to repeat the same idiotic arguments which irritate you (Hux), but to try to make decent arguments for the opposition.
Egg Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 720	__________________ _{"That's the thing with eggs: It's all about chicks and getting laid." - Wuschel} _{"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg" - Samuel Butler} _{“When arguing with a stone an egg is always wrong” - African proverb} _{“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” - Bernard Meltzer} Last edited by Egg; 5th November 2009 at 09:53 PM.

6th November 2009, 04:36 AM	#18
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	Originally Posted by Egg What a pointless waste of time. Why would you want to sink your mind down to the level of the idiots who believe in that kind of nonsense? It's far better to spend the time and effort finding evidence and working on stronger arguments against things you don't believe in. da-da! I consider myself zinged.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776

6th November 2009, 04:37 AM	#19
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	But yes it is often liberating - it is often enlightening. But sometimes it is a bit scary.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776

6th November 2009, 04:42 AM	#20
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 28,320	I've occasionally put on a creationist hat for the sake of argument, but it isn't easy.
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Episode 17: Coming Mid-February. We welcome Lexi Hameister into the world at 1830 on 29 January! What's an "arthwollipot"?

6th November 2009, 04:48 AM	#21
P.J. Denyer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 180	Originally Posted by Hux Go on then. Pretend to be a mindless Christian with all the hatred and idiocy they harbour. Its not easy, even in quotes. Devil's Advocate: "The all powerfull Baby Jesus loves you so much that he's going to send you to Hell to burn for all eternity although he'd rather you didn't and its your own fault." Good enough or have I used too much/little punctuation and capitalisation?
P.J. Denyer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 180

6th November 2009, 04:51 AM	#22
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 28,320	Originally Posted by Hux Go on then. Pretend to be a mindless Christian with all the hatred and idiocy they harbour. Its not easy, even in quotes. You're assuming here that all Christians are mindless, and harbour hatred and idiocy. This is demonstrably not the case, and in fact is an offensive stereotype.
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Episode 17: Coming Mid-February. We welcome Lexi Hameister into the world at 1830 on 29 January! What's an "arthwollipot"?

6th November 2009, 08:18 AM	#23
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 14,373	Originally Posted by Homemade psycho I have a 20 minutes presentation arguing FOR the presence of aliens on earth next week.Not the side I'm used to. I suggest finishing up with a very brief panspermia sentence, ending with "So there may be aliens on Earth, and they is us!" "is" instead of "are".
	__________________ Reid Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman, in *A Day Like Any Other* The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

6th November 2009, 03:01 PM	#24
blutoski Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,402	Part of critical thinking involves getting into the opponent's frame of mind. There are five benefits that I can think of: assists with [Principle of Charity] reduces risk of [Straw Person] understanding the argument and the arguer's colleagues increases the chance of producing an effective argument that will have genuine impact ([Rhetoric]) the purpose of a debate is to get closer to the truth - not to 'win' (reduces [Sophistry]) opponent may be right - the sooner you identify this, the better
blutoski Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,402	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

6th November 2009, 03:07 PM	#25
blutoski Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,402	Oh, also: there's something to be said for parody. I've done healthfraud lectures in the persona of a quack. ("Results: five dead, and fifty missing... um... presumed cured.") We had a presenter at Vancouver Skepticamp in 2008 that posed as a new age guru to educate us on the geology of quartz crystals.
blutoski Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,402	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

6th November 2009, 11:21 PM	#26
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 3,819	I once tried arguing in favor of YEC when an argument about it broke out in my biology class. The other kids couldn't figure out why I broke off mid-sentence and slumped over the desk laughing.
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head." - Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

8th November 2009, 12:19 PM	#27
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	Originally Posted by arthwollipot You're assuming here that all Christians are mindless, and harbour hatred and idiocy. This is demonstrably not the case, and in fact is an offensive stereotype. Yeah! Cool, huh? [derail] Stereotypes - offensive or otherwise - can encourage the mindless christians (who don't actively/consciously ' harbour hatred') to think and, hopefully, realise that - in identifying/practicing as a christian, they are passively promoting a culture of mindless hatred and idiocy. [/derail]
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12th November 2009, 05:20 AM	#28
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 28,320	Originally Posted by six7s Yeah! Cool, huh? [derail] Stereotypes - offensive or otherwise - can encourage the mindless christians (who don't actively/consciously ' harbour hatred') to think and, hopefully, realise that - in identifying/practicing as a christian, they are passively promoting a culture of mindless hatred and idiocy. [/derail] But Christianity has inspired heights of intellectualism, not to mention art. All of the great European discoveries, from heliocentrism to planetary motion to the inverse square law of gravitational attraction, were made by Christians. Christians to this day participate in the intellectual betterment of society by continuing to make scientific discoveries. Um, and art!
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Episode 17: Coming Mid-February. We welcome Lexi Hameister into the world at 1830 on 29 January! What's an "arthwollipot"?

12th November 2009, 05:48 AM	#29
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	Originally Posted by arthwollipot But Christianity has inspired heights of intellectualism Cultural christians? Yes... Philosophical christians? Please name them Originally Posted by arthwollipot not to mention art. OK... don't mention it Originally Posted by arthwollipot All of the great European discoveries, from heliocentrism to planetary motion to the inverse square law of gravitational attraction, were made by Christians. And this negates what, for instance? That "identifying/practicing as a christian, they are (were) passively promoting a culture of mindless hatred and idiocy."? Originally Posted by arthwollipot Christians to this day participate in the intellectual betterment of society by continuing to make scientific discoveries. Correlation != Causation Originally Posted by arthwollipot Um, and art! I thought you said to not mention it
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12th November 2009, 05:50 AM	#30
Praktik Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,804	I argued for the existence of genuine ETs and UFOs in class in a debate format.... swung a LOT of people from "NO" to "undecided"..
Praktik Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,804	__________________ "It must be very strange to be President Bush. A man of extraordinary vision and brilliance approaching to genius, he can't get anyone to notice. He is like a great painter or musician who is ahead of his time, and who unveils one masterpiece after another to a reception that, when not bored, is hostile." - John Hinderaker, Powerline

12th November 2009, 07:02 AM	#31
Mashuna Ovis ex Machina Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Welsh Wales Posts: 4,122	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I've occasionally put on a creationist hat for the sake of argument, but it isn't easy. Too small?
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12th November 2009, 08:52 AM	#32
Hokulele Official Nemesis TLA Dictatrix Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: To be determined. Posts: 21,340	Originally Posted by Mashuna Too small? Too bum-like.
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12th November 2009, 02:13 PM	#33
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	Originally Posted by arthwollipot But Christianity has inspired heights of intellectualism, not to mention art. All of the great European discoveries, from heliocentrism to planetary motion to the inverse square law of gravitational attraction, were made by Christians. And it is not simply the fact that they were Christians, but also the fact that Christian institutions were providing the resources and encouragement for intellectual achievement. People remember Galileo but forget Copernicus, Oresme, Nicolas of Cusa, Roger Bacon, Roger Grosseteste... Oresme was one of the early proponents of the idea that the apparent movement of the Sun could be a function of the rotation of the Earth. As he came from a poor family it is unlikely that he could have developed and disseminated this idea through any other channel but the Church.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,777	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776

12th November 2009, 02:40 PM	#34
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	Originally Posted by Robin And it is not simply the fact that they were Christians, but also the fact that Christian institutions were providing the resources and encouragement for intellectual achievement. People remember Galileo... People might forget that those with the power/control of resources are key decision makers in the funding of research and that - for centuries - money and the Vatican have been inextricably intertwined... wikipedia.org House of Medici Quote: The House of Medici was a political dynasty, banking family and later royal house who first began to gather prominence under Cosimo de' Medici in the Republic of Florence during the late 14th century. The family originated in the Mugello region of the Tuscan countryside, gradually rising until they were able to found the Medici Bank. The bank was the largest in Europe during the 15th century, seeing the Medici gain political power in Florence — though officially they remained simply citizens, rather than monarchs. The Medici produced 4[3] Popes of the Catholic Church and in 1531 the family became hereditary Dukes of Florence. <snip/> Their collective regency is known as the Turtici. Maria Maddelana's temperament was analogous to Christina's. Together, they aligned Tuscany with the Papacy; re-doubled the Tuscan clergy; and allowed the trial of Galileo Galilei to occur.
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12th November 2009, 02:46 PM	#35
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Yubaba's Bathhouse Posts: 19,127	Originally Posted by Robin It has been amusing to listen to people struggle to produce a rational reason for this opposition. I have heard that we need to "protect" the institution of marriage because it is vital to maintaining the stability of society and ensure the future of the species, one person describing marriage as an "efficient futures exchange for fertility". Hell, my brother's heterosexual first wife has done more damage to the "institution of marriage" than all the gay people I know of. She's on her third husband, and has had kids with all.
	__________________ A brave man once requested me to answer questions that are key- "is it to be or not to be?"- and I replied "oh why ask me?" Does it get tiring to be correct about everything? - Francesca R ...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp. - CFLarsen