In Satan's Name

JoeyDonuts · 3rd November 2009, 05:00 AM

This is an extremely difficult subject for me to bring up.

When I was a kid, my parents got involved with a church in the Tulsa area called Morningstar Church. I'd been involved in churches since I was very little, and they were all what you'd expect. Nice people, Sunday School programs, services over in time for football.

Not this one.

This one was led by a charismatic man by the name of Pastor Doug Riggs. The services typically took up about 4-5 hours on a Sunday afternoon, and several times throughout the week as well. The sermons, from what I recall, delved heavily into "spiritual warfare." This was at the height of the "Satanic Panic" some of you might recall, and this church/cult may as well have been ground zero. Despite having no formal psychological practice training, this man "diagnosed" the afflictions of his flock as being entirely the hand of Satan.

His sermons were little more than conspiracy-laden diatribes. I remember what I felt when my parents were attending this weekly marathons. A combination of boredom and fear when I was paying attention. I didn't understand most of what he said, but I too was rather mesmerized by him. And I was scared as hell. I didn't get to read Marvel Comics, or secular literature. I didn't get to listen to Depeche Mode like the friends I wasn't supposed to associate with. I couldn't even listen to ****ing jazz. One time, my parents found a stack of Marvel superhero trading cards on me.

That earned me a counseling session with this man. I don't remember what happened, and I don't think I want to.

Pastor Doug Riggs was the subject of a documentary film some years ago called "In Satan's Name." My little brother found these clips. I almost threw up when I watched them. There isn't any "extreme" content, just some NSFW language from a person supposedly in the throes of demonic possession.

I'd like to hear the community's take on this guy. I don't know why, but seeing this videos again has got me depressed as all hell.

Let me know what you think. I guess I've never really "dealt" with all of this. The portion germane to my old church starts at 03:05 into the first video and continues through the next two.

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I AGREE

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~enigma~ · 3rd November 2009, 05:33 AM

You do know that Lucifer is the morning star right?

gtc · 3rd November 2009, 05:40 AM

That is a terrible story.

Take care of yourself.

A.A.Alfie · 3rd November 2009, 05:42 AM

Thanks Joey
I hope you find the answers you need.
Are your folks still around to talk about this? That might be a good place to start too.

I can offer nothing except my thanks for sharing this with us.

It also proves to me again, that too often it is human beings (and their ego's) that through religion, can really stuff up peoples spirituality.

AAA

Cainkane1 · 3rd November 2009, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

This is an extremely difficult subject for me to bring up.

When I was a kid, my parents got involved with a church in the Tulsa area called Morningstar Church. I'd been involved in churches since I was very little, and they were all what you'd expect. Nice people, Sunday School programs, services over in time for football.

Not this one.

This one was led by a charismatic man by the name of Pastor Doug Riggs. The services typically took up about 4-5 hours on a Sunday afternoon, and several times throughout the week as well. The sermons, from what I recall, delved heavily into "spiritual warfare." This was at the height of the "Satanic Panic" some of you might recall, and this church/cult may as well have been ground zero. Despite having no formal psychological practice training, this man "diagnosed" the afflictions of his flock as being entirely the hand of Satan.

His sermons were little more than conspiracy-laden diatribes. I remember what I felt when my parents were attending this weekly marathons. A combination of boredom and fear when I was paying attention. I didn't understand most of what he said, but I too was rather mesmerized by him. And I was scared as hell. I didn't get to read Marvel Comics, or secular literature. I didn't get to listen to Depeche Mode like the friends I wasn't supposed to associate with. I couldn't even listen to ****ing jazz. One time, my parents found a stack of Marvel superhero trading cards on me.

That earned me a counseling session with this man. I don't remember what happened, and I don't think I want to.

Pastor Doug Riggs was the subject of a documentary film some years ago called "In Satan's Name." My little brother found these clips. I almost threw up when I watched them. There isn't any "extreme" content, just some NSFW language from a person supposedly in the throes of demonic possession.

I'd like to hear the community's take on this guy. I don't know why, but seeing this videos again has got me depressed as all hell.

Let me know what you think. I guess I've never really "dealt" with all of this. The portion germane to my old church starts at 03:05 into the first video and continues through the next two.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

He sounds like a plain ol run of the mill hard shell Baptist to me. Loud obnoxious and fanatical and so very very wrong. There is no satan, there is no God, there is no afterlife. Perhaps you need to be in counceling to rid yourself of the anxiety you suffered at the hands of this man.

Dancing David · 3rd November 2009, 06:02 AM

The strange thing about the people who believe in the satanic conspiracy is that they all just self reference each other.

Sad really, the OTO temple in Chicago is proof of satanism, which it isn't. But then they all quote the same person and then they quote each other.

I believe that the temple that is shown in phptographs is closed now, but they are shown in many books about satanism.

Now they are wierd and strange but they are not satanists.
(these rituals are coded sex magic, the words say one thing and mean another.)

The hatred and bigotry of cults is well established, USers just turn a blind eye to Xian cults. I was raised in Christ Science by two very nice parents, it took me twenty years to heal that harm done to me. (And Xian science isn't even hateful, just harmful.)

Cayvmann · 3rd November 2009, 06:39 AM

Damn, he keeps addressing the same demons and casts them out, but they keep coming back. I guess he doesn't speak with the correct authoritative name.

My mom was into this paranoia of the devil, and to some extent still is. Luckily the rest of us avoided the craziness of it all. Well, my sister is in a wierdo church, but it skipped all the boys. Must be something in the female genes.

slingblade · 3rd November 2009, 08:53 AM

Being a Tulsa native, and a former Pentecostal Fundie, I know too damned well how deeply this can mess a person up.

Joey, you have my sympathetic shoulder and my support. Those sicko bastards make me so angry. Sorry, hon.

kedo1981 · 3rd November 2009, 09:56 AM

Joey
I just finished the "Reason driven Life" by Price
He totally deconstructs the myths and legends of Satan
It would be a good read for you

JoeyDonuts · 3rd November 2009, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

He sounds like a plain ol run of the mill hard shell Baptist to me.

Having been through many different Baptist denominations, I have to disagree with you here. Mr. Riggs was far beyond the typical minister you'd see in this area. Perhaps a hard-line Pat Robertson Southern Baptist would agree with himn on the "principalities and powers" philosophy, but even the most staunch Baptists around here fall well short of Mr. Riggs' extreme SRA beliefs, and sociopathic tendencies, particularly with the stuff about breaking away from the family.

I didn't see my grandparents or aunts or uncles for about eight years while my parents were going there.

Quote:

There is no satan, there is no God, there is no afterlife.

I've been at that conclusion myself for some time.

Quote:

Perhaps you need to be in counceling to rid yourself of the anxiety you suffered at the hands of this man.

I think I'm probably just going to have to confront my parents about it. It's a good time to do it, things are way different now and they've backed off of the hardcore stuff considerably. They're still dyed-in-the-wool Baptists, but that I can deal with since they don't make any attempt to prosyletize me, and haven't for about ten years.

Dancing David · 3rd November 2009, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

I think I'm probably just going to have to confront my parents about it. It's a good time to do it, things are way different now and they've backed off of the hardcore stuff considerably. They're still dyed-in-the-wool Baptists, but that I can deal with since they don't make any attempt to prosyletize me, and haven't for about ten years.

Be careful and safe with that. The people who were in denial when they did something are sometimes still in denial.

And it can be very painful to deal with.

CurtC · 3rd November 2009, 02:39 PM

Have you ever heard this episode of This American Life?

http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1273

It's about a preacher at a pentecostal church in Tulsa, and it's one of the best hours of radio I've ever heard:

Quote:

Carlton Pearson's church, Higher Dimensions, was once one of the biggest in the city, drawing crowds of 5,000 people every Sunday. But several years ago, scandal engulfed the reverend. He didn't have an affair. He didn't embezzle lots of money. His sin was something that to a lot of people is far worse: He stopped believing in Hell.

JoeyDonuts · 3rd November 2009, 04:59 PM

Yeah. Pearson's kind of a pariah in this town anymore. This really is a place full of megachurches, and his used to be the biggest one around. If you've ever seen the King of the Hill episode where they end up going to a Megachurch, that's about it.

Dancing David · 4th November 2009, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by CurtC

Have you ever heard this episode of This American Life?

http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1273

It's about a preacher at a pentecostal church in Tulsa, and it's one of the best hours of radio I've ever heard:

Great story, great show!

Toke · 4th November 2009, 06:15 AM

I have no experience with this, it sounds horrible.

The videos are downloading now, I will see them tonight.

Bikewer · 4th November 2009, 07:26 AM

At the height of the "ritual Satanic abuse" nonsense, we (in law enforcement) were subjected to a training course on "how to detect the signs of Satanic activity".

Some born-again police officer had apparently decided to cash in on the fad and had produced a series of videos and pamphlets he was hawking to departments.
Utterly sillly.

Toke · 4th November 2009, 08:36 AM

I feel ill watching that.
The voice-over "taking christianity back to the middle ages" is quite accurate.

MattusMaximus · 4th November 2009, 06:49 PM

Hey Joey, I feel for you, man...

As a kid I was never exposed to that level of lunacy in any church I attended, but I distinctly recall going over to one house after church on a Saturday (my father flirted with Seventh-Day Adventism after the folks got divorced). After lunch, we all went into the living room and the kids all sat on the floor while the adults played a record of what the End Of The World^TM would sound like, complete with "sinners" being cast into the fires of Hell, being eternally stabbed with demon's forks, tearing out their eyes in agony, etc etc etc.

I sat there, jaw agape, listening to this horrendous stuff. Then I looked around the room, saw all the adults (including Dad) nodding approvingly & knowingly at the "lesson" we were learning. Meanwhile, every other kid in the room was eating this crap up.

It was then I made a very firm decision to simply get the hell away from those folks. In fact, it was one of the experiences I had which caused me to question the assumed "goodness" of religious belief.

Damn, I remember it like it was yesterday - spooky².

MattusMaximus · 4th November 2009, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

At the height of the "ritual Satanic abuse" nonsense, we (in law enforcement) were subjected to a training course on "how to detect the signs of Satanic activity".

Some born-again police officer had apparently decided to cash in on the fad and had produced a series of videos and pamphlets he was hawking to departments.
Utterly sillly.

It would have been utterly silly, if not for the unfortunate fact that quite a few decent people had their lives utterly ruined as a result of this stupid moral panic. For example, the infamous Oak Hill trial.

Stupidity & credulity can seriously frak with people.

pakeha · 5th November 2009, 01:13 AM

hi, joeydonuts. Thanks for the OP and the vids links.

Apparently the 'repressed SRA childhood experience' scam is originally sourced from a single book

http://www.members.shaw.ca/imaginary...wRAstarted.htm

Quote:

In 1980, a psychiatrist and his patient published a book, advertised as a true story, about her experiences as a five-year-old child in a satanic cult in the genteel seaside Canadian city of Victoria. The book, Michelle Remembers, became a bestseller. In it, Dr. Lawrence Pazder and Michelle Smith Pazder (for she became his wife as well as his patient) related the sexual and other tortures inflicted on the young Michelle by a secret coven of Satanists. Dr. Pazder believed that his patient, whom he had been treating for depression, had repressed all memories of these events until, with his help, she was able to recover them by going into a trance-like state.

JoeyDonuts · 5th November 2009, 04:31 AM

"Michelle Remembers" is generally accepted to be where it started, but it was reinforced through people like Bob Larson with his demon-blasting antics, Mike Warnke, Jack Chick, and a host of others that were just accepted.

From what I can see it became a self-reinforcing farce.

Darth Rotor · 5th November 2009, 08:54 AM

I don't know how to say this without feeling clumsy, shipmate, but this guy is best left in your rear view mirror, slowly receding into nothing as you drive forward down your road of life.

Whatever you are going to, or toward, is more important than what you are moving away from.

DR

godless dave · 5th November 2009, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

I don't know how to say this without feeling clumsy, shipmate, but this guy is best left in your rear view mirror, slowly receding into nothing as you drive forward down your road of life.

Whatever you are going to, or toward, is more important than what you are moving away from.

DR

While this is true, the impact of childhood trauma should not be underestimated. A good therapist might help you work through the effects of such trauma. The key word there is "good"; there are lots of bad therapists.

Darth Rotor · 5th November 2009, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by godless dave

While this is true, the impact of childhood trauma should not be underestimated. A good therapist might help you work through the effects of such trauma. The key word there is "good"; there are lots of bad therapists.

I concur that childhood trauma may need more than "just turn your back on it." I don't offer "see a therapist" on internet boards as a suggestion. I have seen it too often used in a condescending and negative light.

I also think that Joey is self aware enough that if he thinks he needs a therapist, he'll get out the phone book and call one for an appointment.

DR

Mira · 5th November 2009, 10:51 AM

I am so sorry you had to go through that horrible ordeal. There are no words to describe how wrong that is. The video links made me sick too. It is absolutely frightening how people can be brainwashed into thinking that they were abused, even when they have no memory of it.

It is sick and wrong what they "pastor" was doing. Even though I don't know you, I feel for you and am glad you got away from it. I can completely understand why those videos would make you depressed. Those things that were said and done are so wrong on so many levels.

A non religious form of counseling may help if you feel you need it. It may be a good thing to talk it out with someone you can see rather than faceless figures on a world wide forum. But I hope it helps.

Good Luck.

Mira

JoeyDonuts · 5th November 2009, 01:57 PM

I think the best therapy would be a stiff right cross.

Of course, that would entail searching across the country so I could punch out what is now a 65+ year old man.

Actually, that doesn't bother me so much since I'd totally dropkick Andy Rooney if given the chance.

This has been affecting me lately, but DR is right. I will probably wind up asking my parents about it but for all I know they want to leave the whole thing in their rearview mirror as well.

For the record I should state I have no recollection of being influenced to believe I was ritualistically abused. Mr. Riggs usually selected 'targets' that were already suffering from some kind of emotional distress ranging from simple marital 'bedroom' issues everybody has, to Munchausen Syndrome, to full blown paranoid schizophrenia and possible drug use, to flat out making **** up for the attention.

The worst part is that these people did not receive the treatment they needed.

My parents have kept in contact with one of the people in the video, and it did not turn out well. There was a divorce, one of their kids committed suicide, another one is constantly being arrested for this and that, and it turns out the husband was beating her rather badly the whole time they went to the church - and the Pastor knew about it. Rather than refer them to the proper domestic violence authorities, he "treated" them himself.

However, she has, like many in the church, moved on and appears to be happy. Her daughter whom I remember from my time there has apparently just entered private law practice.

JoeyDonuts · 5th November 2009, 02:04 PM

Here's some stuff he's written about his approach to treating Disassociative Identity Disorder (formerly known as MPD):

Hold your nose before you read it. It gets ugly. For example:

Originally Posted by Doug Riggs

In working with SRA/DID it is very important not to conclude that all of your client's problems are necessarily demonic. But the presence of the demonic will always exacerbate the whole spectrum of dissociative symptoms. Therefore the removal of all such demonic influence is essential to the client's healing and resolution.

http://www.his-forever.com/how_to_re...ic_element.pdf

Ethnikos · 7th November 2009, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Cayvmann

Damn, he keeps addressing the same demons and casts them out, but they keep coming back. I guess he doesn't speak with the correct authoritative name.

I get annoyed when people do that, as if you say the name of Jesus just right then the incantation will work.
I don't think that was what Jesus meant by healing people in his name.
There is a couple of places in Acts where the Apostles said, "in the name of Jesus." and they had instant results.
Paul said, "Do not be like the heathen, endlessly repeating prayers, as if that is going to make God hear you."
It seems like a mockery to do what looks like actually daring demons to posses people.

Ethnikos · 7th November 2009, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

"Michelle Remembers" is generally accepted to be where it started, but it was reinforced through people like Bob Larson with his demon-blasting antics, Mike Warnke, Jack Chick, and a host of others that were just accepted.

From what I can see it became a self-reinforcing farce.

I used to listen to Pastor Gene Scott (back when he was still alive) because his show came in clear on my short wave. The man would sometimes be quoting from the Amityville Horror. I would think, "Don't you realize that is fiction?" He would throw in all this information, from the book, into his sermons about demons and I thought, "Oh that really helps your credibility."
Lots of people have delusions. Like when I lived in California, I told one of my friends who was quoting Don Juan from Carlos Castaneda, the same thing I would have said to old Pastor Gene. "Oh, no! that's ridiculous, all the stuff in these books really happened!" and was very offended with me to where I had to back away from him.

Fiona · 7th November 2009, 07:05 PM

Joey if that made you depressed and angry you are doing better than I think I could do if I had been exposed to that. It is hard to watch such abuse; hard to believe that is legal. I know, consenting adults: but where is the consent in coercive persuasion? I don't see anything here except power tripping and self delusion and a complete lack of care for others.

I echo Dancing David's call for you to be careful in confronting your parents: Keep your self safe above all else. It may be that they will not validate your experience and if you need them to do that it will hurt.

I think to bring this here was extremely courageous and I, too, feel clumsy and out of my depth. But I wish you well, for what that is worth

pakeha · 8th November 2009, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

Here's some stuff he's written about his approach to treating Disassociative Identity Disorder (formerly known as MPD):

Hold your nose before you read it. It gets ugly. For example:

http://www.his-forever.com/how_to_re...ic_element.pdf

From the linked article:

Quote:

I have often found alters who could not hear or speak because of the presence of deaf
and dumb spirits. These spirits are usually attached to alters which also carry the 'don't
talk/don't tell' programming. By commanding these deaf and dumb spirits to leave in
the name of Jesus Christ, the captive alters can be released and worked with. This may
include identifying the nature of the programming and its neutralization.

JoeyDonuts · 8th November 2009, 09:54 PM

Yeah, isn't that nice?

If you're not talking to him, it's because you've been programmed with a mute demonic entity.

JoeyDonuts · 8th November 2009, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Lots of people have delusions. Like when I lived in California, I told one of my friends who was quoting Don Juan from Carlos Castaneda, the same thing I would have said to old Pastor Gene. "Oh, no! that's ridiculous, all the stuff in these books really happened!" and was very offended with me to where I had to back away from him.

People like Doug Riggs claim the mandate for what they do to people comes directly from "God Almighty" as illuminated through the "Holy Scriptures." They throw around the same scriptures from the same Bible you do. Where the Bible is concerned, what makes Doug Riggs' behavior 'delusional' and other, less extreme Christian counseling ministers 'correct?'

Ethnikos · 8th November 2009, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

People like Doug Riggs claim the mandate for what they do to people comes directly from "God Almighty" as illuminated through the "Holy Scriptures." They throw around the same scriptures from the same Bible you do. Where the Bible is concerned, what makes Doug Riggs' behavior 'delusional' and other, less extreme Christian counseling ministers 'correct?'

I can't hardly comment on that. If people want to come to him then I think that is their right. I wouldn't advise it.
What I was talking about is how one person writes a book about something they think happened to them, and then people just accept it, as if it is something they already wanted to believe in.
I do believe in miracles but you should realize at some point if you are performing them or making a mockery of it.

JoeyDonuts · 8th November 2009, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I can't hardly comment on that. If people want to come to him then I think that is their right. I wouldn't advise it.

I believe what he does should be illegal, since he's fulfilling the role of a mental health professional. Unfortunately the law will never support this any more than it will support the prosecution of a reflexologist that treats cancer patients. It's deplorable and should be punishable under law, but I just don't see the laws catching up with this, ever.

Quote:

What I was talking about is how one person writes a book about something they think happened to them, and then people just accept it, as if it is something they already wanted to believe in.

Yeah. I've heard of that book. It's called the Bible and every other religious tome that's studied and used as a focus for worship nowadays.

Quote:

I do believe in miracles but you should realize at some point if you are performing them or making a mockery of it.

You'd have to define "miracle" first. Doug Riggs probably thinks he was able to work "miracles" during his counseling sessions. If you describe a "miracle" as "an event or action whose only possible explanation is supernatural" you'd have to be completely sure of that fact first by eliminating all other possible scientific explanations.

Even if a so-called miracle could pass this test (it won't) you still can't say conclusively that it's supernatural or the "Hand of God" without overwhelming evidence to that fact - evidence that would in and of itself also be a miracle, like God physically manifesting in front of multiple people out of thin air, publicly and to non-believers as well as those whose perceptions could be influenced.

I'd wager that nearly all of your modern day "miracle workers" know for certain they're not performing miracles, unless Binny Hinn really believes he's able to have the Holy Spirit conjure up a big ol' flaming ball of agape and focus it through his $4000 sport coat.

Skeptic Ginger · 9th November 2009, 12:10 AM

Wow, that childhood experience sounds like it was a bummer, JoeyD. It amazes me though how many kids exposed to this kind of stuff figure out the rational world eventually. Good for you. I never had to overcome anything from my childhood to think rationally except my Dad's staunch Republican leanings.

Ethnikos · 9th November 2009, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

I believe what he does should be illegal, since he's fulfilling the role of a mental health professional. Unfortunately the law will never support this any more than it will support the prosecution of a reflexologist that treats cancer patients. It's deplorable and should be punishable under law, but I just don't see the laws catching up with this, ever.

What he did would be preferable to having those people all burned at the stake. You should be careful what you wish for.

Quote:

Yeah. I've heard of that book. It's called the Bible and every other religious tome that's studied and used as a focus for worship nowadays.

I doubt that the people who wrote the Bible were intentionally being deceptive, in order to turn a profit in sales. I think those were just meant for their own enjoyment.

Quote:

You'd have to define "miracle" first. Doug Riggs probably thinks he was able to work "miracles" during his counseling sessions. If you describe a "miracle" as "an event or action whose only possible explanation is supernatural" you'd have to be completely sure of that fact first by eliminating all other possible scientific explanations.

Somebody who I know personally (as in not just on the internet) just told me about when he was leading a church meeting and was a little let down on the spiritual experience in the congregation. He thought, Jesus said that when two or more are gathered together. He decided to take him up on the offer and called for the presence of God to enter the church. Oops, big mistake. You really don't want God to actually show up, that is if you want to keep living. There were burnt out light bulbs that suddenly lit up and the people were not able to breath. (of course they could a little, but just enough to maintain consciousness) He went to a nursing home to give communion and there was one who was in a coma. He called her name and she sat up and took communion from him. Three days later she died.

Quote:

Even if a so-called miracle could pass this test (it won't) you still can't say conclusively that it's supernatural or the "Hand of God" without overwhelming evidence to that fact - evidence that would in and of itself also be a miracle, like God physically manifesting in front of multiple people out of thin air, publicly and to non-believers as well as those whose perceptions could be influenced.

If you want to launch an investigation, I could give you the names and places, if you trust witnesses.

Quote:

I'd wager that nearly all of your modern day "miracle workers" know for certain they're not performing miracles, unless Binny Hinn really believes he's able to have the Holy Spirit conjure up a big ol' flaming ball of agape and focus it through his $4000 sport coat.

Depends. In the case of this friend, he was worshipped like he was the Dalai Lama. He had to run away because he did not want that sort of thing. Jesus, at a lot of points in his ministry, had to get away from the crowds.

JWideman · 9th November 2009, 01:15 AM

It gets easier the more you talk about it.

pakeha · 9th November 2009, 01:22 AM

[quote=JoeyDonuts;5291592]

Quote:

I believe what he does should be illegal, since he's fulfilling the role of a mental health professional. Unfortunately the law will never support this any more than it will support the prosecution of a reflexologist that treats cancer patients. It's deplorable and should be punishable under law, but I just don't see the laws catching up with this, ever.

Legally, JoeyDonuts, I seem to recall only a licensed physician can diagnose and prescribe treatment for a medical condition.
It could be argued this 'pastor', by putting that arrant nonsense about deafness being caused by 'demons' on his webpage without a medical 'disclaimer' has crossed into the medical terrain.

It would be an interesting legal battle; however, realistically, I have to agree with Darth.
Put it behind you.
However, if you can't, maybe working with people caught in the meshes of this disgusting scam is an idea. Or blogging.

All the best to you, JoeyDonuts.

Eric D · 9th November 2009, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

This is an extremely difficult subject for me to bring up.

When I was a kid, my parents got involved with a church in the Tulsa area called Morningstar Church. I'd been involved in churches since I was very little, and they were all what you'd expect. Nice people, Sunday School programs, services over in time for football.

Not this one.

This one was led by a charismatic man by the name of Pastor Doug Riggs. The services typically took up about 4-5 hours on a Sunday afternoon, and several times throughout the week as well. The sermons, from what I recall, delved heavily into "spiritual warfare." This was at the height of the "Satanic Panic" some of you might recall, and this church/cult may as well have been ground zero. Despite having no formal psychological practice training, this man "diagnosed" the afflictions of his flock as being entirely the hand of Satan.

His sermons were little more than conspiracy-laden diatribes. I remember what I felt when my parents were attending this weekly marathons. A combination of boredom and fear when I was paying attention. I didn't understand most of what he said, but I too was rather mesmerized by him. And I was scared as hell. I didn't get to read Marvel Comics, or secular literature. I didn't get to listen to Depeche Mode like the friends I wasn't supposed to associate with. I couldn't even listen to ****ing jazz. One time, my parents found a stack of Marvel superhero trading cards on me.

That earned me a counseling session with this man. I don't remember what happened, and I don't think I want to.

Pastor Doug Riggs was the subject of a documentary film some years ago called "In Satan's Name." My little brother found these clips. I almost threw up when I watched them. There isn't any "extreme" content, just some NSFW language from a person supposedly in the throes of demonic possession.

I'd like to hear the community's take on this guy. I don't know why, but seeing this videos again has got me depressed as all hell.

Let me know what you think. I guess I've never really "dealt" with all of this. The portion germane to my old church starts at 03:05 into the first video and continues through the next two.

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Sounds like you had a rough time growing up. Makes me appreciate my childhood a little more.

3rd November 2009, 05:40 AM	#3
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,109	That is a terrible story. Take care of yourself.
	__________________

3rd November 2009, 05:42 AM	#4
A.A.Alfie Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,113	Thanks Joey I hope you find the answers you need. Are your folks still around to talk about this? That might be a good place to start too. I can offer nothing except my thanks for sharing this with us. It also proves to me again, that too often it is human beings (and their ego's) that through religion, can really stuff up peoples spirituality. AAA
	__________________ “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong". Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

3rd November 2009, 06:02 AM	#6
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 18,357	The strange thing about the people who believe in the satanic conspiracy is that they all just self reference each other. Sad really, the OTO temple in Chicago is proof of satanism, which it isn't. But then they all quote the same person and then they quote each other. I believe that the temple that is shown in phptographs is closed now, but they are shown in many books about satanism. Now they are wierd and strange but they are not satanists. (these rituals are coded sex magic, the words say one thing and mean another.) The hatred and bigotry of cults is well established, USers just turn a blind eye to Xian cults. I was raised in Christ Science by two very nice parents, it took me twenty years to heal that harm done to me. (And Xian science isn't even hateful, just harmful.)
	__________________ Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.- Walt Kelly wow Mr.Philospher, you need some custard poured over your head mayhaps? -kittynh "Exhibit 1338A as to why the Politics forum is "where rational thought goes to die."-Carlitos

3rd November 2009, 06:39 AM	#7
Cayvmann Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 136	Damn, he keeps addressing the same demons and casts them out, but they keep coming back. I guess he doesn't speak with the correct authoritative name. My mom was into this paranoia of the devil, and to some extent still is. Luckily the rest of us avoided the craziness of it all. Well, my sister is in a wierdo church, but it skipped all the boys. Must be something in the female genes.
Cayvmann Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 136

3rd November 2009, 08:53 AM	#8
slingblade 63% similar to you Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In This Fog, Who Knows? Posts: 13,773	Being a Tulsa native, and a former Pentecostal Fundie, I know too damned well how deeply this can mess a person up. Joey, you have my sympathetic shoulder and my support. Those sicko bastards make me so angry. Sorry, hon.
	__________________ http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f1..._jewelrycraft/

3rd November 2009, 05:33 AM	#2
~enigma~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Center of the universe Posts: 7,955	You do know that Lucifer is the morning star right?

3rd November 2009, 09:56 AM	#9
kedo1981 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: ohio Posts: 1,181	Joey I just finished the "Reason driven Life" by Price He totally deconstructs the myths and legends of Satan It would be a good read for you
	__________________ "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21) Bart Simpson "You would think that living in a house full of crazy people whould be a lot of fun, but it's really kind of depressing"

3rd November 2009, 02:00 PM	#10
JoeyDonuts 21st Century Digital Boy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 8-VSB Modulated Bliss Posts: 7,807	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 He sounds like a plain ol run of the mill hard shell Baptist to me. Having been through many different Baptist denominations, I have to disagree with you here. Mr. Riggs was far beyond the typical minister you'd see in this area. Perhaps a hard-line Pat Robertson Southern Baptist would agree with himn on the "principalities and powers" philosophy, but even the most staunch Baptists around here fall well short of Mr. Riggs' extreme SRA beliefs, and sociopathic tendencies, particularly with the stuff about breaking away from the family. I didn't see my grandparents or aunts or uncles for about eight years while my parents were going there. Quote: There is no satan, there is no God, there is no afterlife. I've been at that conclusion myself for some time. Quote: Perhaps you need to be in counceling to rid yourself of the anxiety you suffered at the hands of this man. I think I'm probably just going to have to confront my parents about it. It's a good time to do it, things are way different now and they've backed off of the hardcore stuff considerably. They're still dyed-in-the-wool Baptists, but that I can deal with since they don't make any attempt to prosyletize me, and haven't for about ten years.
	__________________ "Facial Nazi tattoos pretty much tell everyone you've checked out of society and left no forwarding address." - Howie Felterbush Last edited by JoeyDonuts; 3rd November 2009 at 02:01 PM.

3rd November 2009, 02:04 PM	#11
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 18,357	Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts I think I'm probably just going to have to confront my parents about it. It's a good time to do it, things are way different now and they've backed off of the hardcore stuff considerably. They're still dyed-in-the-wool Baptists, but that I can deal with since they don't make any attempt to prosyletize me, and haven't for about ten years. Be careful and safe with that. The people who were in denial when they did something are sometimes still in denial. And it can be very painful to deal with.
	__________________ Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.- Walt Kelly wow Mr.Philospher, you need some custard poured over your head mayhaps? -kittynh "Exhibit 1338A as to why the Politics forum is "where rational thought goes to die."-Carlitos

3rd November 2009, 02:39 PM	#12
CurtC Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 4,248	Have you ever heard this episode of This American Life? http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1273 It's about a preacher at a pentecostal church in Tulsa, and it's one of the best hours of radio I've ever heard: Quote: Carlton Pearson's church, Higher Dimensions, was once one of the biggest in the city, drawing crowds of 5,000 people every Sunday. But several years ago, scandal engulfed the reverend. He didn't have an affair. He didn't embezzle lots of money. His sin was something that to a lot of people is far worse: He stopped believing in Hell.
	__________________ Is there a God? Find the answer at The Official God FAQ.

3rd November 2009, 04:59 PM	#13
JoeyDonuts 21st Century Digital Boy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 8-VSB Modulated Bliss Posts: 7,807	Yeah. Pearson's kind of a pariah in this town anymore. This really is a place full of megachurches, and his used to be the biggest one around. If you've ever seen the King of the Hill episode where they end up going to a Megachurch, that's about it.
	__________________ "Facial Nazi tattoos pretty much tell everyone you've checked out of society and left no forwarding address." - Howie Felterbush

4th November 2009, 05:52 AM	#14
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 18,357	Originally Posted by CurtC Have you ever heard this episode of This American Life? http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1273 It's about a preacher at a pentecostal church in Tulsa, and it's one of the best hours of radio I've ever heard: Great story, great show!
	__________________ Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.- Walt Kelly wow Mr.Philospher, you need some custard poured over your head mayhaps? -kittynh "Exhibit 1338A as to why the Politics forum is "where rational thought goes to die."-Carlitos

4th November 2009, 06:15 AM	#15
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 4,180	I have no experience with this, it sounds horrible. The videos are downloading now, I will see them tonight.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx

4th November 2009, 07:26 AM	#16
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 5,249	At the height of the "ritual Satanic abuse" nonsense, we (in law enforcement) were subjected to a training course on "how to detect the signs of Satanic activity". Some born-again police officer had apparently decided to cash in on the fad and had produced a series of videos and pamphlets he was hawking to departments. Utterly sillly.

4th November 2009, 08:36 AM	#17
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 4,180	I feel ill watching that. The voice-over "taking christianity back to the middle ages" is quite accurate.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx

4th November 2009, 06:49 PM	#18
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 7,123	Hey Joey, I feel for you, man... As a kid I was never exposed to that level of lunacy in any church I attended, but I distinctly recall going over to one house after church on a Saturday (my father flirted with Seventh-Day Adventism after the folks got divorced). After lunch, we all went into the living room and the kids all sat on the floor while the adults played a record of what the End Of The World^TM would sound like, complete with "sinners" being cast into the fires of Hell, being eternally stabbed with demon's forks, tearing out their eyes in agony, etc etc etc. I sat there, jaw agape, listening to this horrendous stuff. Then I looked around the room, saw all the adults (including Dad) nodding approvingly & knowingly at the "lesson" we were learning. Meanwhile, every other kid in the room was eating this crap up. It was then I made a very firm decision to simply get the hell away from those folks. In fact, it was one of the experiences I had which caused me to question the assumed "goodness" of religious belief. Damn, I remember it like it was yesterday - spooky².
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher Critical Thinking Education Group (CTEG) Chicago's First Skepticamp: Skepchicamp - March 6, 2010 Secular & Skeptic Help for Haiti

4th November 2009, 06:53 PM	#19
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by Bikewer At the height of the "ritual Satanic abuse" nonsense, we (in law enforcement) were subjected to a training course on "how to detect the signs of Satanic activity". Some born-again police officer had apparently decided to cash in on the fad and had produced a series of videos and pamphlets he was hawking to departments. Utterly sillly. It would have been utterly silly, if not for the unfortunate fact that quite a few decent people had their lives utterly ruined as a result of this stupid moral panic. For example, the infamous Oak Hill trial. Stupidity & credulity can seriously frak with people.
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher Critical Thinking Education Group (CTEG) Chicago's First Skepticamp: Skepchicamp - March 6, 2010 Secular & Skeptic Help for Haiti

5th November 2009, 01:13 AM	#20
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	hi, joeydonuts. Thanks for the OP and the vids links. Apparently the 'repressed SRA childhood experience' scam is originally sourced from a single book http://www.members.shaw.ca/imaginary...wRAstarted.htm Quote: In 1980, a psychiatrist and his patient published a book, advertised as a true story, about her experiences as a five-year-old child in a satanic cult in the genteel seaside Canadian city of Victoria. The book, Michelle Remembers, became a bestseller. In it, Dr. Lawrence Pazder and Michelle Smith Pazder (for she became his wife as well as his patient) related the sexual and other tortures inflicted on the young Michelle by a secret coven of Satanists. Dr. Pazder believed that his patient, whom he had been treating for depression, had repressed all memories of these events until, with his help, she was able to recover them by going into a trance-like state.
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12.

5th November 2009, 04:31 AM	#21
JoeyDonuts 21st Century Digital Boy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 8-VSB Modulated Bliss Posts: 7,807	"Michelle Remembers" is generally accepted to be where it started, but it was reinforced through people like Bob Larson with his demon-blasting antics, Mike Warnke, Jack Chick, and a host of others that were just accepted. From what I can see it became a self-reinforcing farce.
	__________________ "Facial Nazi tattoos pretty much tell everyone you've checked out of society and left no forwarding address." - Howie Felterbush

5th November 2009, 08:54 AM	#22
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	I don't know how to say this without feeling clumsy, shipmate, but this guy is best left in your rear view mirror, slowly receding into nothing as you drive forward down your road of life. Whatever you are going to, or toward, is more important than what you are moving away from. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

5th November 2009, 09:37 AM	#23
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 3,728	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor I don't know how to say this without feeling clumsy, shipmate, but this guy is best left in your rear view mirror, slowly receding into nothing as you drive forward down your road of life. Whatever you are going to, or toward, is more important than what you are moving away from. DR While this is true, the impact of childhood trauma should not be underestimated. A good therapist might help you work through the effects of such trauma. The key word there is "good"; there are lots of bad therapists.
	__________________ Genesis 9:3

5th November 2009, 09:55 AM	#24
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by godless dave While this is true, the impact of childhood trauma should not be underestimated. A good therapist might help you work through the effects of such trauma. The key word there is "good"; there are lots of bad therapists. I concur that childhood trauma may need more than "just turn your back on it." I don't offer "see a therapist" on internet boards as a suggestion. I have seen it too often used in a condescending and negative light. I also think that Joey is self aware enough that if he thinks he needs a therapist, he'll get out the phone book and call one for an appointment. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

5th November 2009, 10:51 AM	#25
Mira New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14	I am so sorry you had to go through that horrible ordeal. There are no words to describe how wrong that is. The video links made me sick too. It is absolutely frightening how people can be brainwashed into thinking that they were abused, even when they have no memory of it. It is sick and wrong what they "pastor" was doing. Even though I don't know you, I feel for you and am glad you got away from it. I can completely understand why those videos would make you depressed. Those things that were said and done are so wrong on so many levels. A non religious form of counseling may help if you feel you need it. It may be a good thing to talk it out with someone you can see rather than faceless figures on a world wide forum. But I hope it helps. Good Luck. Mira
Mira New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14	Last edited by Mira; 5th November 2009 at 10:54 AM. Reason: adding to comments

5th November 2009, 01:57 PM	#26
JoeyDonuts 21st Century Digital Boy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 8-VSB Modulated Bliss Posts: 7,807	I think the best therapy would be a stiff right cross. Of course, that would entail searching across the country so I could punch out what is now a 65+ year old man. Actually, that doesn't bother me so much since I'd totally dropkick Andy Rooney if given the chance. This has been affecting me lately, but DR is right. I will probably wind up asking my parents about it but for all I know they want to leave the whole thing in their rearview mirror as well. For the record I should state I have no recollection of being influenced to believe I was ritualistically abused. Mr. Riggs usually selected 'targets' that were already suffering from some kind of emotional distress ranging from simple marital 'bedroom' issues everybody has, to Munchausen Syndrome, to full blown paranoid schizophrenia and possible drug use, to flat out making ** up for the attention. The worst part is that these people did not receive the treatment they needed. My parents have kept in contact with one of the people in the video, and it did not turn out well. There was a divorce, one of their kids committed suicide, another one is constantly being arrested for this and that, and it turns out the husband was beating her rather badly the whole time they went to the church - and the Pastor knew about it**. Rather than refer them to the proper domestic violence authorities, he "treated" them himself. However, she has, like many in the church, moved on and appears to be happy. Her daughter whom I remember from my time there has apparently just entered private law practice.
	__________________ "Facial Nazi tattoos pretty much tell everyone you've checked out of society and left no forwarding address." - Howie Felterbush

5th November 2009, 02:04 PM	#27
JoeyDonuts 21st Century Digital Boy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 8-VSB Modulated Bliss Posts: 7,807	Here's some stuff he's written about his approach to treating Disassociative Identity Disorder (formerly known as MPD): Hold your nose before you read it. It gets ugly. For example: Originally Posted by Doug Riggs In working with SRA/DID it is very important not to conclude that all of your client's problems are necessarily demonic. But the presence of the demonic will always exacerbate the whole spectrum of dissociative symptoms. Therefore the removal of all such demonic influence is essential to the client's healing and resolution. http://www.his-forever.com/how_to_re...ic_element.pdf
	__________________ "Facial Nazi tattoos pretty much tell everyone you've checked out of society and left no forwarding address." - Howie Felterbush

7th November 2009, 05:55 PM	#28
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,712	Originally Posted by Cayvmann Damn, he keeps addressing the same demons and casts them out, but they keep coming back. I guess he doesn't speak with the correct authoritative name. I get annoyed when people do that, as if you say the name of Jesus just right then the incantation will work. I don't think that was what Jesus meant by healing people in his name. There is a couple of places in Acts where the Apostles said, "in the name of Jesus." and they had instant results. Paul said, "Do not be like the heathen, endlessly repeating prayers, as if that is going to make God hear you." It seems like a mockery to do what looks like actually daring demons to posses people.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

7th November 2009, 06:22 PM	#29
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,712	Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts "Michelle Remembers" is generally accepted to be where it started, but it was reinforced through people like Bob Larson with his demon-blasting antics, Mike Warnke, Jack Chick, and a host of others that were just accepted. From what I can see it became a self-reinforcing farce. I used to listen to Pastor Gene Scott (back when he was still alive) because his show came in clear on my short wave. The man would sometimes be quoting from the Amityville Horror. I would think, "Don't you realize that is fiction?" He would throw in all this information, from the book, into his sermons about demons and I thought, "Oh that really helps your credibility." Lots of people have delusions. Like when I lived in California, I told one of my friends who was quoting Don Juan from Carlos Castaneda, the same thing I would have said to old Pastor Gene. "Oh, no! that's ridiculous, all the stuff in these books really happened!" and was very offended with me to where I had to back away from him.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 7th November 2009 at 06:36 PM.

7th November 2009, 07:05 PM	#30
Fiona Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 6,103	Joey if that made you depressed and angry you are doing better than I think I could do if I had been exposed to that. It is hard to watch such abuse; hard to believe that is legal. I know, consenting adults: but where is the consent in coercive persuasion? I don't see anything here except power tripping and self delusion and a complete lack of care for others. I echo Dancing David's call for you to be careful in confronting your parents: Keep your self safe above all else. It may be that they will not validate your experience and if you need them to do that it will hurt. I think to bring this here was extremely courageous and I, too, feel clumsy and out of my depth. But I wish you well, for what that is worth
Fiona Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 6,103	__________________ To see you, who you wanted to be, amongst the bastards out there. Damn you, Fiona - MattC. Damn you, Fi - SkeptikKhatt Damn you, anoiF - CriticalSock You are become Fiona, destroyer of threads! -realpaladin

8th November 2009, 04:08 AM	#31
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts Here's some stuff he's written about his approach to treating Disassociative Identity Disorder (formerly known as MPD): Hold your nose before you read it. It gets ugly. For example: http://www.his-forever.com/how_to_re...ic_element.pdf From the linked article: Quote: I have often found alters who could not hear or speak because of the presence of deaf and dumb spirits. These spirits are usually attached to alters which also carry the 'don't talk/don't tell' programming. By commanding these deaf and dumb spirits to leave in the name of Jesus Christ, the captive alters can be released and worked with. This may include identifying the nature of the programming and its neutralization.
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12.

8th November 2009, 09:54 PM	#32
JoeyDonuts 21st Century Digital Boy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 8-VSB Modulated Bliss Posts: 7,807	Yeah, isn't that nice? If you're not talking to him, it's because you've been programmed with a mute demonic entity.
	__________________ "Facial Nazi tattoos pretty much tell everyone you've checked out of society and left no forwarding address." - Howie Felterbush

8th November 2009, 09:58 PM	#33
JoeyDonuts 21st Century Digital Boy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 8-VSB Modulated Bliss Posts: 7,807	Originally Posted by Ethnikos Lots of people have delusions. Like when I lived in California, I told one of my friends who was quoting Don Juan from Carlos Castaneda, the same thing I would have said to old Pastor Gene. "Oh, no! that's ridiculous, all the stuff in these books really happened!" and was very offended with me to where I had to back away from him. People like Doug Riggs claim the mandate for what they do to people comes directly from "God Almighty" as illuminated through the "Holy Scriptures." They throw around the same scriptures from the same Bible you do. Where the Bible is concerned, what makes Doug Riggs' behavior 'delusional' and other, less extreme Christian counseling ministers 'correct?'
	__________________ "Facial Nazi tattoos pretty much tell everyone you've checked out of society and left no forwarding address." - Howie Felterbush

8th November 2009, 11:03 PM	#34
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,712	Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts People like Doug Riggs claim the mandate for what they do to people comes directly from "God Almighty" as illuminated through the "Holy Scriptures." They throw around the same scriptures from the same Bible you do. Where the Bible is concerned, what makes Doug Riggs' behavior 'delusional' and other, less extreme Christian counseling ministers 'correct?' I can't hardly comment on that. If people want to come to him then I think that is their right. I wouldn't advise it. What I was talking about is how one person writes a book about something they think happened to them, and then people just accept it, as if it is something they already wanted to believe in. I do believe in miracles but you should realize at some point if you are performing them or making a mockery of it.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

8th November 2009, 11:54 PM	#35
JoeyDonuts 21st Century Digital Boy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 8-VSB Modulated Bliss Posts: 7,807	Originally Posted by Ethnikos I can't hardly comment on that. If people want to come to him then I think that is their right. I wouldn't advise it. I believe what he does should be illegal, since he's fulfilling the role of a mental health professional. Unfortunately the law will never support this any more than it will support the prosecution of a reflexologist that treats cancer patients. It's deplorable and should be punishable under law, but I just don't see the laws catching up with this, ever. Quote: What I was talking about is how one person writes a book about something they think happened to them, and then people just accept it, as if it is something they already wanted to believe in. Yeah. I've heard of that book. It's called the Bible and every other religious tome that's studied and used as a focus for worship nowadays. Quote: I do believe in miracles but you should realize at some point if you are performing them or making a mockery of it. You'd have to define "miracle" first. Doug Riggs probably thinks he was able to work "miracles" during his counseling sessions. If you describe a "miracle" as "an event or action whose only possible explanation is supernatural" you'd have to be completely sure of that fact first by eliminating all other possible scientific explanations. Even if a so-called miracle could pass this test (it won't) you still can't say conclusively that it's supernatural or the "Hand of God" without overwhelming evidence to that fact - evidence that would in and of itself also be a miracle, like God physically manifesting in front of multiple people out of thin air, publicly and to non-believers as well as those whose perceptions could be influenced. I'd wager that nearly all of your modern day "miracle workers" know for certain they're not performing miracles, unless Binny Hinn really believes he's able to have the Holy Spirit conjure up a big ol' flaming ball of agape and focus it through his $4000 sport coat.
	__________________ "Facial Nazi tattoos pretty much tell everyone you've checked out of society and left no forwarding address." - Howie Felterbush

9th November 2009, 12:10 AM	#36
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: headed back to that dark dark house in the dark dark woods Posts: 19,317	Wow, that childhood experience sounds like it was a bummer, JoeyD. It amazes me though how many kids exposed to this kind of stuff figure out the rational world eventually. Good for you. I never had to overcome anything from my childhood to think rationally except my Dad's staunch Republican leanings.
	__________________ Sk'p' 'el (Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Republic Party, in response.) (*Tired of the current Republican talking point of naming everything after Pelosi, Reid &/or Obama, I've decided to start adding Republican names to their fault fiascos.)

9th November 2009, 12:52 AM	#37
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,712	Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts I believe what he does should be illegal, since he's fulfilling the role of a mental health professional. Unfortunately the law will never support this any more than it will support the prosecution of a reflexologist that treats cancer patients. It's deplorable and should be punishable under law, but I just don't see the laws catching up with this, ever. What he did would be preferable to having those people all burned at the stake. You should be careful what you wish for. Quote: Yeah. I've heard of that book. It's called the Bible and every other religious tome that's studied and used as a focus for worship nowadays. I doubt that the people who wrote the Bible were intentionally being deceptive, in order to turn a profit in sales. I think those were just meant for their own enjoyment. Quote: You'd have to define "miracle" first. Doug Riggs probably thinks he was able to work "miracles" during his counseling sessions. If you describe a "miracle" as "an event or action whose only possible explanation is supernatural" you'd have to be completely sure of that fact first by eliminating all other possible scientific explanations. Somebody who I know personally (as in not just on the internet) just told me about when he was leading a church meeting and was a little let down on the spiritual experience in the congregation. He thought, Jesus said that when two or more are gathered together. He decided to take him up on the offer and called for the presence of God to enter the church. Oops, big mistake. You really don't want God to actually show up, that is if you want to keep living. There were burnt out light bulbs that suddenly lit up and the people were not able to breath. (of course they could a little, but just enough to maintain consciousness) He went to a nursing home to give communion and there was one who was in a coma. He called her name and she sat up and took communion from him. Three days later she died. Quote: Even if a so-called miracle could pass this test (it won't) you still can't say conclusively that it's supernatural or the "Hand of God" without overwhelming evidence to that fact - evidence that would in and of itself also be a miracle, like God physically manifesting in front of multiple people out of thin air, publicly and to non-believers as well as those whose perceptions could be influenced. If you want to launch an investigation, I could give you the names and places, if you trust witnesses. Quote: I'd wager that nearly all of your modern day "miracle workers" know for certain they're not performing miracles, unless Binny Hinn really believes he's able to have the Holy Spirit conjure up a big ol' flaming ball of agape and focus it through his $4000 sport coat. Depends. In the case of this friend, he was worshipped like he was the Dalai Lama. He had to run away because he did not want that sort of thing. Jesus, at a lot of points in his ministry, had to get away from the crowds.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment