Therapeutic Touch/Healing Touch/Reiki and Nursing

RosesRoses · 4th November 2009, 01:31 PM

Hi.

I am new here and like to think that I am a rational human being, but have an open mind to new ideas.

I am a licensed vocational nurse by profession and work in long term care.

I have taken some courses in "energy healing" like Healing Touch and Reiki. These courses are offered through our local, public funded college. Although I found the courses fun and even relaxing, I am uncomfortable with the idea of charging people to wave my hands over them.

I'll admit, that I used this at work on a person who was agitated (they have dementia). I think that my attention and actions probably were pleasantly distracting (to both the patient and myself LOL) so that their agitation diminished.

When I hear a speaker going on about using energy healing in professional practice (usually the speaker is an RN who has higher level training in Healing Touch or Therapeutic Touch), I try to ask the hard questions:

"What emperical evidence is there that this actually works and is worth the money for a 'professional healing touch therapist' to offer workshops on site or use as a therapy for patients?"

"Would caring attention and distraction work just as well for someone?"

I am usually shut down very quickly with "I have used this technique and IT WORKS!"

When I counter that this is merely anecdotal evidence, I usually am called close minded. It doesn't help that I am the only person in the room who is skeptical

Can anyone here point to some published, emperical studies that disprove energy healing. It is nice to have some good ole facts to back me up (even if the adherents of these practices don't have such facts).

Thanks.

George152 · 4th November 2009, 01:41 PM

You're a nurse.
And from your post you have worked it out.
You are paying attention to the patient though doing something they can't understand.
But you are paying attention to them of course they are going to quieten down.
I'd suggest your 'workmates' need a reality check

Professor Yaffle · 4th November 2009, 01:42 PM

Cochrane reviews on Therapeutic Touch:

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab006240.html
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab002766.html
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab006535.html

And of course there is the famous study by Emily Rosa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa

LarianLeQuella · 4th November 2009, 01:49 PM

Welcome to the forum RosesRoses.

People who don't have a firm grip on their beliefs and no understanding of what exactly it is that is at work will tend to get defensive like that. Stick to your guns, and put out a counter study. If anything, you could get published in a real journal.

George152 · 4th November 2009, 01:51 PM

Go to http://www.skepdic.com/ and follow the links from there.
Have fun :-)

MattusMaximus · 4th November 2009, 06:27 PM

Show your coworkers the study by Emily Rosa, and tell them "See? Even a kid figured out this was a bunch of hooey!"

And welcome to the Forum

AndyD · 5th November 2009, 12:19 AM

You could also ask the nature of this mysterious "energy" they are supposedly manipulating. For example, can it be dangerous if an inexperienced practitioner misuses it? Will you cause brain tumors if you wave your hands too close to a patient's head? Actually, can there be any negative consequences from this "energy" at all? And can it be measured?

After all, we know that kinetic energy can kill us if we get hit by a bus. We know that solar energy can cause things to overheat and carries a risk of melanoma. Electrical energy is deadly in all sorts of ways. Nuclear energy - well, you get the idea.

As useful as these forms of energy are, they can be measured and do carry risks. So what are the risks of the mysterious energy harnessed by reiki and how do we measure it?

JJM · 5th November 2009, 05:17 AM

Skepdic, referred to above, is a good source, as is www.quackwatch.org

If I recall correctly, Emily's mother (Linda Rosa, RN) once asked for documentation inre TT and was provided with newspaper and magazine clippings, as well as poorly done studies in "professional" journals. So, you need to track down the original (professional) publications and be able to evaluate their quality. Testamonial and anecdote abound, as you have noticed.

As for finding clinical studies that refute the quackery you refer to, you probably cannot do so. That is because A) one must refute each claim individually, B) believers doing such research do not usually report negative findings and C) as in the case of Emily Rosa, the believers say that negative studies were not done properly.

Quackery is becoming institutionalized in health professions, including nursing. Go to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ and search for "nursing" (or any such term) and you will see several examples.

Dr. Imago · 7th November 2009, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by AndyD

So what are the risks of the mysterious energy harnessed by reiki and how do we measure it?

Good technique when debating the rationally minded. However, I predict the answer RosesRoses gets will simply and dismissively be, "It's not dangerous."

TT is a belief system. Nothing more. You can't challenge it with logic.

~Dr. Imago

SusanB-M1 · 7th November 2009, 09:31 AM

RosesRoses
Good luck with refuting pseudo stuff. I am at present going slowly through 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre and he has a web site which might be useful. He is a Doctor and in fact was one of the speakers at TAM London. A strong campaigner against false ideas, but someone who recognises that placebo effects work.

And, of course, as the others have said - Welcome to the forum.

Eos of the Eons · 7th November 2009, 09:38 AM

I don't see a problem if it is free, and the patient is actually affected (calmed) by it. Somebody tried that with me once, and I just wanted to punch them. It gave me a stomach ache too because it not only weirded me out, but they insulted my intelligence. If I got charged for it, I really really really would want to punch em out. It's placebo, and the patient must be gullible enough to eat it up.

We need more nurses like you with a brain and ethics.

Apathia · 7th November 2009, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons

I don't see a problem if it is free, and the patient is actually affected (calmed) by it. Somebody tried that with me once, and I just wanted to punch them. It gave me a stomach ache too because it not only weirded me out, but they insulted my intelligence. If I got charged for it, I really really really would want to punch em out. It's placebo, and the patient must be gullible enough to eat it up.

We need more nurses like you with a brain and ethics.

I agree.
I'm curious though.
What specifically do you mean by "wierded me out?"
Did it make you feel weird in some way. Or was it just that it was all so dumb.

The practice does invade personal space, and that's potentially a personal boundary violation.

Personal boundary issues was the main reason I stopped practicing Reiki.
Then, of course there was all the scam involved in it as well.
(I never charged anyone for Reiki sessions.)

six7s · 7th November 2009, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Apathia

(I never charged anyone for Reiki sessions.)

Other than the 'opportunity cost'

Although the placebo effect and treatments that are harmonious with fairy tales can suffice for many patients, there are occasions when there is only enough time for nursing care that is consistent with reality

PingOfPong · 8th November 2009, 07:31 AM

Quote:

I am uncomfortable with the idea of charging people to wave my hands over them.

That's very ethical of you. Kudos, seriously.

pakeha · 8th November 2009, 08:47 AM

I just found this:

Quote:

Effects of reiki in clinical practice: a systematic review of randomised clinical trials.
Lee MS, Pittler MH, Ernst E.

Complementary Medicine, Peninsula Medical School, Universities of Exeter & Plymouth, Exeter, UK. myeong.lee@pms.ac.uk

INTRODUCTION: The aim of this systematic review is to summarise and critically evaluate the evidence for the effectiveness of reiki. METHODS: We searched the literature using 23 databases from their respective inceptions through to November 2007 (search again 23 January 2008) without language restrictions. Methodological quality was assessed using the Jadad score. RESULTS: The searches identified 205 potentially relevant studies. Nine randomised clinical trials (RCTs) met our inclusion criteria. Two RCTs suggested beneficial effects of reiki compared with sham control on depression, while one RCT did not report intergroup differences. For pain and anxiety, one RCT showed intergroup differences compared with sham control. For stress and hopelessness a further RCT reported effects of reiki and distant reiki compared with distant sham control. For functional recovery after ischaemic stroke there were no intergroup differences compared with sham. There was also no difference for anxiety between groups of pregnant women undergoing amniocentesis. For diabetic neuropathy there were no effects of reiki on pain. A further RCT failed to show the effects of reiki for anxiety and depression in women undergoing breast biopsy compared with conventional care. DISCUSSION: In total, the trial data for any one condition are scarce and independent replications are not available for each condition. Most trials suffered from methodological flaws such as small sample size, inadequate study design and poor reporting. CONCLUSION: In conclusion, the evidence is insufficient to suggest that reiki is an effective treatment for any condition. Therefore the value of reiki remains unproven

here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18410352

Eos of the Eons · 8th November 2009, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Apathia

I agree.
I'm curious though.
What specifically do you mean by "wierded me out?"
Did it make you feel weird in some way. Or was it just that it was all so dumb.

The practice does invade personal space, and that's potentially a personal boundary violation.

Personal boundary issues was the main reason I stopped practicing Reiki.
Then, of course there was all the scam involved in it as well.
(I never charged anyone for Reiki sessions.)

Yeah, cuz it was DUMB. I didn't have personal boundary issues with the person who did it, she wasn't a practitioner, she does think it is a treatment though and was just showing me what they do wth their hands. I was kind enough to not tell her it was stupid.

Apathia · 8th November 2009, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons

Yeah, cuz it was DUMB. I didn't have personal boundary issues with the person who did it, she wasn't a practitioner, she does think it is a treatment though and was just showing me what they do wth their hands. I was kind enough to not tell her it was stupid.

Perhaps then, you'd have not have had the stomach ache, if you'd found a way to kindly tell her how nonsensical it was for you.

But, yeah, most times I just suck it in rather than try to explain to people why their wonderthing isn't the miracle they think it is.

Eos of the Eons · 8th November 2009, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Apathia

Perhaps then, you'd have not have had the stomach ache, if you'd found a way to kindly tell her how nonsensical it was for you.

But, yeah, most times I just suck it in rather than try to explain to people why their wonderthing isn't the miracle they think it is.

She only did it for a second, and she was not a practitioner, she was demonstrating. I wouldn't go to a practitioner because it is stupid to pay someone to do it. I got a stomache ache because I couldn't tell her how stupid it was, and that is frustrating (leading to my physiologic response to frustration). I won't get into the rest of the story since it is irrelevant. No way, no how, can she know I think it is stupid.

Wolrab · 8th November 2009, 01:26 PM

I became a registered nurse in June. I always had something to say about TT and reiki. I finally did a care plan which included "Disturbed Energy Field". Seeing it written out, with links to Lil' Emily's paper, made my instructors laugh out loud.

Several of my classmates (after graduation) made it know on facebook, that they were b'leevers and got very upset with my quick link to Quackwatch and my pointing out what evidence based practice meant. One of their friends (a grocery store clerk, probably always surrounded at work by respected medical journals like the National Enquirer) lit into me. It was very disheartening.

Apathia · 8th November 2009, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons

She only did it for a second, and she was not a practitioner, she was demonstrating. I wouldn't go to a practitioner because it is stupid to pay someone to do it. I got a stomache ache because I couldn't tell her how stupid it was, and that is frustrating (leading to my physiologic response to frustration). I won't get into the rest of the story since it is irrelevant. No way, no how, can she know I think it is stupid.

Yup! I've been there with people too.

Eos of the Eons · 8th November 2009, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Wolrab

I became a registered nurse in June. I always had something to say about TT and reiki. I finally did a care plan which included "Disturbed Energy Field". Seeing it written out, with links to Lil' Emily's paper, made my instructors laugh out loud.

Several of my classmates (after graduation) made it know on facebook, that they were b'leevers and got very upset with my quick link to Quackwatch and my pointing out what evidence based practice meant. One of their friends (a grocery store clerk, probably always surrounded at work by respected medical journals like the National Enquirer) lit into me. It was very disheartening.

Don't let it bother you. I've quite figured out when to nod and smile and ignore people. They aren't stupid, just not able to add critical thinking to their view of the world.

Here is a linky, it's the kind of thing that oddly makes me feel better:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427321.000-clever-fools-why-a-high-iq-doesnt-mean-youre-smart.html?full=true

six7s · 8th November 2009, 04:14 PM

That link is broken...

Try www.newscientist.com Clever fools: Why a high IQ doesn't mean you're smart

pipelineaudio · 8th November 2009, 09:34 PM

This is one of those prime examples of why I laugh so hard when forum members suggest that autodidacts are so inferior to college grads

six7s · 8th November 2009, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

This is one of those prime examples of why I laugh so hard when forum members suggest that autodidacts are so inferior to college grads

Huh?

What is "one of those prime examples"?

pipelineaudio · 11th November 2009, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by six7s

Huh?

What is "one of those prime examples"?

Ahh sorry didn't mean to make it look like I was responding to you. I meant that these people in the health profession, surely after spending more time in higher education than most, will still suck in the woo with those silly autodidacts

4th November 2009, 01:31 PM	#1
RosesRoses New Blood Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2	Therapeutic Touch/Healing Touch/Reiki and Nursing Hi. I am new here and like to think that I am a rational human being, but have an open mind to new ideas. I am a licensed vocational nurse by profession and work in long term care. I have taken some courses in "energy healing" like Healing Touch and Reiki. These courses are offered through our local, public funded college. Although I found the courses fun and even relaxing, I am uncomfortable with the idea of charging people to wave my hands over them. I'll admit, that I used this at work on a person who was agitated (they have dementia). I think that my attention and actions probably were pleasantly distracting (to both the patient and myself LOL) so that their agitation diminished. When I hear a speaker going on about using energy healing in professional practice (usually the speaker is an RN who has higher level training in Healing Touch or Therapeutic Touch), I try to ask the hard questions: "What emperical evidence is there that this actually works and is worth the money for a 'professional healing touch therapist' to offer workshops on site or use as a therapy for patients?" "Would caring attention and distraction work just as well for someone?" I am usually shut down very quickly with "I have used this technique and IT WORKS!" When I counter that this is merely anecdotal evidence, I usually am called close minded. It doesn't help that I am the only person in the room who is skeptical Can anyone here point to some published, emperical studies that disprove energy healing. It is nice to have some good ole facts to back me up (even if the adherents of these practices don't have such facts). Thanks.
RosesRoses New Blood Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2

4th November 2009, 01:41 PM	#2
George152 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hamilton New Zealand Posts: 375	You're a nurse. And from your post you have worked it out. You are paying attention to the patient though doing something they can't understand. But you are paying attention to them of course they are going to quieten down. I'd suggest your 'workmates' need a reality check
	__________________ Unemployment isn't working

4th November 2009, 01:42 PM	#3
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 7,132	Cochrane reviews on Therapeutic Touch: http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab006240.html http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab002766.html http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab006535.html And of course there is the famous study by Emily Rosa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that.

4th November 2009, 01:49 PM	#4
LarianLeQuella Elf Wino Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun Posts: 597	Welcome to the forum RosesRoses. People who don't have a firm grip on their beliefs and no understanding of what exactly it is that is at work will tend to get defensive like that. Stick to your guns, and put out a counter study. If anything, you could get published in a real journal.
	__________________ "Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." - Frater Ravus "Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense." - Chapman Cohen Larian LeQuella Armyn ab Treanid

4th November 2009, 01:51 PM	#5
George152 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hamilton New Zealand Posts: 375	Go to http://www.skepdic.com/ and follow the links from there. Have fun :-)
	__________________ Unemployment isn't working

4th November 2009, 06:27 PM	#6
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 7,123	Show your coworkers the study by Emily Rosa, and tell them "See? Even a kid figured out this was a bunch of hooey!" And welcome to the Forum
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher Critical Thinking Education Group (CTEG) Chicago's First Skepticamp: Skepchicamp - March 6, 2010 Secular & Skeptic Help for Haiti

5th November 2009, 12:19 AM	#7
AndyD Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 498	You could also ask the nature of this mysterious "energy" they are supposedly manipulating. For example, can it be dangerous if an inexperienced practitioner misuses it? Will you cause brain tumors if you wave your hands too close to a patient's head? Actually, can there be any negative consequences from this "energy" at all? And can it be measured? After all, we know that kinetic energy can kill us if we get hit by a bus. We know that solar energy can cause things to overheat and carries a risk of melanoma. Electrical energy is deadly in all sorts of ways. Nuclear energy - well, you get the idea. As useful as these forms of energy are, they can be measured and do carry risks. So what are the risks of the mysterious energy harnessed by reiki and how do we measure it?
AndyD Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 498	__________________ Psychics, astrology, creationism, skepticism and more Stop Sylvia Browne

5th November 2009, 05:17 AM	#8
JJM Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,720	Skepdic, referred to above, is a good source, as is www.quackwatch.org If I recall correctly, Emily's mother (Linda Rosa, RN) once asked for documentation inre TT and was provided with newspaper and magazine clippings, as well as poorly done studies in "professional" journals. So, you need to track down the original (professional) publications and be able to evaluate their quality. Testamonial and anecdote abound, as you have noticed. As for finding clinical studies that refute the quackery you refer to, you probably cannot do so. That is because A) one must refute each claim individually, B) believers doing such research do not usually report negative findings and C) as in the case of Emily Rosa, the believers say that negative studies were not done properly. Quackery is becoming institutionalized in health professions, including nursing. Go to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ and search for "nursing" (or any such term) and you will see several examples.
JJM Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,720

7th November 2009, 06:33 AM	#9
Dr. Imago Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,941	Originally Posted by AndyD So what are the risks of the mysterious energy harnessed by reiki and how do we measure it? Good technique when debating the rationally minded. However, I predict the answer RosesRoses gets will simply and dismissively be, "It's not dangerous." TT is a belief system. Nothing more. You can't challenge it with logic. ~Dr. Imago
	__________________ DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk.

7th November 2009, 09:31 AM	#10
SusanB-M1 Incurable Optimist Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Almost in the New Forest, Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,506	RosesRoses Good luck with refuting pseudo stuff. I am at present going slowly through 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre and he has a web site which might be useful. He is a Doctor and in fact was one of the speakers at TAM London. A strong campaigner against false ideas, but someone who recognises that placebo effects work. And, of course, as the others have said - Welcome to the forum.
	__________________ I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

7th November 2009, 09:38 AM	#11
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,253	I don't see a problem if it is free, and the patient is actually affected (calmed) by it. Somebody tried that with me once, and I just wanted to punch them. It gave me a stomach ache too because it not only weirded me out, but they insulted my intelligence. If I got charged for it, I really really really would want to punch em out. It's placebo, and the patient must be gullible enough to eat it up. We need more nurses like you with a brain and ethics.
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

7th November 2009, 08:17 PM	#12
Apathia Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,266	Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons I don't see a problem if it is free, and the patient is actually affected (calmed) by it. Somebody tried that with me once, and I just wanted to punch them. It gave me a stomach ache too because it not only weirded me out, but they insulted my intelligence. If I got charged for it, I really really really would want to punch em out. It's placebo, and the patient must be gullible enough to eat it up. We need more nurses like you with a brain and ethics. I agree. I'm curious though. What specifically do you mean by "wierded me out?" Did it make you feel weird in some way. Or was it just that it was all so dumb. The practice does invade personal space, and that's potentially a personal boundary violation. Personal boundary issues was the main reason I stopped practicing Reiki. Then, of course there was all the scam involved in it as well. (I never charged anyone for Reiki sessions.)
Apathia Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,266	__________________ "to defy the authority of empirical evidence is to disqualify oneself as someone worthy of critical engagement in a dialog." The Dalai Lama "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown Last edited by Apathia; 7th November 2009 at 09:39 PM.

7th November 2009, 09:11 PM	#13
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	Originally Posted by Apathia (I never charged anyone for Reiki sessions.) Other than the 'opportunity cost' Although the placebo effect and treatments that are harmonious with fairy tales can suffice for many patients, there are occasions when there is only enough time for nursing care that is consistent with reality
	__________________ Sent from my Mac Book Wheel using Clickaclickaclickaclickatalk

8th November 2009, 07:31 AM	#14
PingOfPong Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 421	Quote: I am uncomfortable with the idea of charging people to wave my hands over them. That's very ethical of you. Kudos, seriously.

8th November 2009, 08:47 AM	#15
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	I just found this: Quote: Effects of reiki in clinical practice: a systematic review of randomised clinical trials. Lee MS, Pittler MH, Ernst E. Complementary Medicine, Peninsula Medical School, Universities of Exeter & Plymouth, Exeter, UK. myeong.lee@pms.ac.uk INTRODUCTION: The aim of this systematic review is to summarise and critically evaluate the evidence for the effectiveness of reiki. METHODS: We searched the literature using 23 databases from their respective inceptions through to November 2007 (search again 23 January 2008) without language restrictions. Methodological quality was assessed using the Jadad score. RESULTS: The searches identified 205 potentially relevant studies. Nine randomised clinical trials (RCTs) met our inclusion criteria. Two RCTs suggested beneficial effects of reiki compared with sham control on depression, while one RCT did not report intergroup differences. For pain and anxiety, one RCT showed intergroup differences compared with sham control. For stress and hopelessness a further RCT reported effects of reiki and distant reiki compared with distant sham control. For functional recovery after ischaemic stroke there were no intergroup differences compared with sham. There was also no difference for anxiety between groups of pregnant women undergoing amniocentesis. For diabetic neuropathy there were no effects of reiki on pain. A further RCT failed to show the effects of reiki for anxiety and depression in women undergoing breast biopsy compared with conventional care. DISCUSSION: In total, the trial data for any one condition are scarce and independent replications are not available for each condition. Most trials suffered from methodological flaws such as small sample size, inadequate study design and poor reporting. CONCLUSION: In conclusion, the evidence is insufficient to suggest that reiki is an effective treatment for any condition. Therefore the value of reiki remains unproven here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18410352
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12.

8th November 2009, 12:02 PM	#16
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,253	Originally Posted by Apathia I agree. I'm curious though. What specifically do you mean by "wierded me out?" Did it make you feel weird in some way. Or was it just that it was all so dumb. The practice does invade personal space, and that's potentially a personal boundary violation. Personal boundary issues was the main reason I stopped practicing Reiki. Then, of course there was all the scam involved in it as well. (I never charged anyone for Reiki sessions.) Yeah, cuz it was DUMB. I didn't have personal boundary issues with the person who did it, she wasn't a practitioner, she does think it is a treatment though and was just showing me what they do wth their hands. I was kind enough to not tell her it was stupid.
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

8th November 2009, 12:57 PM	#17
Apathia Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,266	Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons Yeah, cuz it was DUMB. I didn't have personal boundary issues with the person who did it, she wasn't a practitioner, she does think it is a treatment though and was just showing me what they do wth their hands. I was kind enough to not tell her it was stupid. Perhaps then, you'd have not have had the stomach ache, if you'd found a way to kindly tell her how nonsensical it was for you. But, yeah, most times I just suck it in rather than try to explain to people why their wonderthing isn't the miracle they think it is.
Apathia Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,266	__________________ "to defy the authority of empirical evidence is to disqualify oneself as someone worthy of critical engagement in a dialog." The Dalai Lama "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown

8th November 2009, 01:00 PM	#18
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,253	Originally Posted by Apathia Perhaps then, you'd have not have had the stomach ache, if you'd found a way to kindly tell her how nonsensical it was for you. But, yeah, most times I just suck it in rather than try to explain to people why their wonderthing isn't the miracle they think it is. She only did it for a second, and she was not a practitioner, she was demonstrating. I wouldn't go to a practitioner because it is stupid to pay someone to do it. I got a stomache ache because I couldn't tell her how stupid it was, and that is frustrating (leading to my physiologic response to frustration). I won't get into the rest of the story since it is irrelevant. No way, no how, can she know I think it is stupid.
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! Last edited by Eos of the Eons; 8th November 2009 at 01:01 PM.

8th November 2009, 01:26 PM	#19
Wolrab Muse Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 525	I became a registered nurse in June. I always had something to say about TT and reiki. I finally did a care plan which included "Disturbed Energy Field". Seeing it written out, with links to Lil' Emily's paper, made my instructors laugh out loud. Several of my classmates (after graduation) made it know on facebook, that they were b'leevers and got very upset with my quick link to Quackwatch and my pointing out what evidence based practice meant. One of their friends (a grocery store clerk, probably always surrounded at work by respected medical journals like the National Enquirer) lit into me. It was very disheartening.
Wolrab Muse Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 525

8th November 2009, 01:37 PM	#20
Apathia Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,266	Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons She only did it for a second, and she was not a practitioner, she was demonstrating. I wouldn't go to a practitioner because it is stupid to pay someone to do it. I got a stomache ache because I couldn't tell her how stupid it was, and that is frustrating (leading to my physiologic response to frustration). I won't get into the rest of the story since it is irrelevant. No way, no how, can she know I think it is stupid. Yup! I've been there with people too.
Apathia Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,266	__________________ "to defy the authority of empirical evidence is to disqualify oneself as someone worthy of critical engagement in a dialog." The Dalai Lama "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown

8th November 2009, 04:09 PM	#21
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,253	Originally Posted by Wolrab I became a registered nurse in June. I always had something to say about TT and reiki. I finally did a care plan which included "Disturbed Energy Field". Seeing it written out, with links to Lil' Emily's paper, made my instructors laugh out loud. Several of my classmates (after graduation) made it know on facebook, that they were b'leevers and got very upset with my quick link to Quackwatch and my pointing out what evidence based practice meant. One of their friends (a grocery store clerk, probably always surrounded at work by respected medical journals like the National Enquirer) lit into me. It was very disheartening. Don't let it bother you. I've quite figured out when to nod and smile and ignore people. They aren't stupid, just not able to add critical thinking to their view of the world. Here is a linky, it's the kind of thing that oddly makes me feel better: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427321.000-clever-fools-why-a-high-iq-doesnt-mean-youre-smart.html?full=true
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

8th November 2009, 04:14 PM	#22
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	That link is broken... Try www.newscientist.com Clever fools: Why a high IQ doesn't mean you're smart
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8th November 2009, 09:34 PM	#23
pipelineaudio Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 2,205	This is one of those prime examples of why I laugh so hard when forum members suggest that autodidacts are so inferior to college grads
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8th November 2009, 09:58 PM	#24
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio This is one of those prime examples of why I laugh so hard when forum members suggest that autodidacts are so inferior to college grads Huh? What is "one of those prime examples"?
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11th November 2009, 04:02 AM	#25
pipelineaudio Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 2,205	Originally Posted by six7s Huh? What is "one of those prime examples"? Ahh sorry didn't mean to make it look like I was responding to you. I meant that these people in the health profession, surely after spending more time in higher education than most, will still suck in the woo with those silly autodidacts
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