Help! I need reliable sources on the truth about H1N1 & vaccines

Josh111485 · 10th November 2009, 11:43 AM

As we all know, there is a lot of BS and fear mongering going around about the H1N1 vaccine and vaccines in general. Can anyone provide me with reliable sources/information about H1N1, vaccines, and the Swine Flu? Sources that provide reliable and accurate information on these subjects. I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,
Josh

taiyo · 10th November 2009, 01:28 PM

Since you're in the USA, you should check out the Centers for Disease Control's swine flu vaccine information. It's comprehensive and it should answer most of your questions.

The main thing to remember when looking things up on the internet is that you can find websites offering 'evidence' for and against any given point of view or theory. If you're not an expert in the subject you'll have no way to know which ones are right or wrong, so it's usually best to stick to official health advice.

Capsid · 10th November 2009, 01:34 PM

I regard the WHO as a reliable source.

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swine.../en/index.html

And the European Agency

http://www.emea.europa.eu/influenza/home.htm

Eos of the Eons · 10th November 2009, 11:38 PM

Oh yay. New news story -kid almost dies after flu shot. I can't find out if he got the flu or what. It didn't sound like an allergic reaction or GBS. So, if he got the flu around the same time as the shot, of course he got the flu FROM the shot (shot doesn't cause flu, but people keep on ignoring that), and didn't nearly die of the flu. Idiot media on it again. Just keep ON ignoring the fact that the shot needs 10 days to work, so if you get the flu before THEN, then you almost died from the flu, idiots.

Science based medicine is a good place for flu information as well, and anything by Steven Novella:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2084

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=784&a=a

macdoc · 11th November 2009, 03:23 AM

There was a good analysis of "risk" I'll try to find as it focuses on large numbers where out of a million people a certain % would die in a 24 hour period anyways.

We only hear about that when it is circumscribed by something like a flu shot - if you took another 1 million teens without the shot there would be odd deaths as well.

Safe-Keeper · 11th November 2009, 09:45 AM

That's what I keep trying to tell people - running in stairs, too, kills people, yet we never hear about it when some kid falls down the stairs at home and breaks his leg. It doesn't make national headlines when some innocent child eats peanut butter or candy with 'traces of nuts' and drops dead from an allergic reaction.

But when swine flu vaccinations aren't 100% safe and may, like nearly everything else in the world, kill you, then it needs to be trumpeted from the mountaintops as if it somehow makes the vaccination dangerous.

Better ban those stairs, too, before the Big Housing Industry kills even more people with them.

Eos of the Eons · 11th November 2009, 09:59 AM

They haven't indicated it really was from the flu vaccine. A certain percentage will already be incubating the flu when they get the shot. They will then get the flu before the 10 days that they get protection from the shot. My bets are that he nearly died from the FLU.

Eos of the Eons · 11th November 2009, 10:03 AM

The typical media response is to announce the illness or death "after the shot", and then get stupid stock responses from authorities quoted BEFORE they determine what caused the illness or death (probably quotes not even related to the case they are reporting from, or that the authorities haven't even checked out or confirmed either way yet). In one case, the death was actually cause by a tumor. In another, the supposed dystonia wasn't even dystonia at all and most certainly wasn't caused by the flu vaccine, and in THIS case I'm willing to bet it was the actual flu that laid him out.

BenBurch · 11th November 2009, 10:40 AM

Kids die pretty much at random for various reasons.

If you vaccinate a large enough group of kids you will have one die right after vaccination, pretty much a mathematical certainty.

Correlation does not prove causation.

pgwenthold · 11th November 2009, 10:52 AM

How many non-vaccinated kids have died in the time since they have started giving H1N1 shots?

If one dies after a shot, it makes the news. If they didn't have a shot, it doesn't make the news. It's a classic case of a one-sided result.

Capsid · 11th November 2009, 12:00 PM

These are the clinical trial studies on the pandemic H1N1 vaccines (note there are several different vaccines available generated from different seed stocks). Also note the offical name for this virus is pandemic H1N1; apparently the vets don't like swine flu as it's not a swine virus really. Is this insufficient testing that the anti-vaxxers complain of? It has been tested in animal models too.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/...EJMoa0907413v1

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/...EJMoa0907650v1

The vaccine is adjuvanted so that a lower dose can be used but still generate the same antibody levels; so more doses are available.

taiyo · 11th November 2009, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Capsid

The vaccine is adjuvanted so that a lower dose can be used but still generate the same antibody levels; so more doses are available.

I'm told it's also because the virus strain used didn't give a very good yield, so they needed to try and eke it out a bit. Thanks for those links.

Capsid · 11th November 2009, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by taiyo

I'm told it's also because the virus strain used didn't give a very good yield, so they needed to try and eke it out a bit. Thanks for those links.

Several vaccine strains were tried initially and these did have poor growth in chicken eggs, so newer strains were generated that had good growth characteristics. This is why the vaccine was available a little later than projected.

taiyo · 12th November 2009, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Capsid

Several vaccine strains were tried initially and these did have poor growth in chicken eggs, so newer strains were generated that had good growth characteristics. This is why the vaccine was available a little later than projected.

Should have guessed from the name/avatar that you'd know about viruses!!

RichardR · 14th November 2009, 10:40 AM

A couple of good blogs in addition to those mentioned above:

PAL: http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/

Revere: http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/

ksbluesfan · 16th November 2009, 03:28 PM

I'm having trouble finding the results from clinical trials. Most of these measure immune response, but they don't compare a group that is given a placebo to a group given the vaccination. I'd like to see something like that which shows the number of people who get the virus in each group. I don't care which strain of flu is studied, just the results. I want to present this info to a person who claims "there's no proof whatsoever that flu vaccines work".

Capsid · 16th November 2009, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by ksbluesfan

I'm having trouble finding the results from clinical trials. Most of these measure immune response, but they don't compare a group that is given a placebo to a group given the vaccination. I'd like to see something like that which shows the number of people who get the virus in each group. I don't care which strain of flu is studied, just the results. I want to present this info to a person who claims "there's no proof whatsoever that flu vaccines work".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...&ordinalpos=16

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...&ordinalpos=20

ksbluesfan · 16th November 2009, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Capsid

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...&ordinalpos=16

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...&ordinalpos=20

Thank you!!!

Capsid · 17th November 2009, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by ksbluesfan

Thank you!!!

No problem. Could you let us know if these studies convinced the person you are having a debate with?

10th November 2009, 11:43 AM	#1
Josh111485 Scholar Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 122	Help! I need reliable sources on the truth about H1N1 & vaccines As we all know, there is a lot of BS and fear mongering going around about the H1N1 vaccine and vaccines in general. Can anyone provide me with reliable sources/information about H1N1, vaccines, and the Swine Flu? Sources that provide reliable and accurate information on these subjects. I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Josh

10th November 2009, 01:34 PM	#3
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,127	I regard the WHO as a reliable source. http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swine.../en/index.html And the European Agency http://www.emea.europa.eu/influenza/home.htm
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,127	Last edited by Capsid; 10th November 2009 at 01:39 PM.

10th November 2009, 11:38 PM	#4
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,253	Oh yay. New news story -kid almost dies after flu shot. I can't find out if he got the flu or what. It didn't sound like an allergic reaction or GBS. So, if he got the flu around the same time as the shot, of course he got the flu FROM the shot (shot doesn't cause flu, but people keep on ignoring that), and didn't nearly die of the flu. Idiot media on it again. Just keep ON ignoring the fact that the shot needs 10 days to work, so if you get the flu before THEN, then you almost died from the flu, idiots. Science based medicine is a good place for flu information as well, and anything by Steven Novella: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2084 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=784&a=a
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

11th November 2009, 03:23 AM	#5
macdoc Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 2,616	There was a good analysis of "risk" I'll try to find as it focuses on large numbers where out of a million people a certain % would die in a 24 hour period anyways. We only hear about that when it is circumscribed by something like a flu shot - if you took another 1 million teens without the shot there would be odd deaths as well.
	__________________ _{Nature Reports Climate Change Copenhagen Climate Change Synthesis Report 2009 http://www.copenhagendiagnosis.com/} _{Anyone wishing a list of mainstream climate science sources to get up speed feel free to PM. Others have found the links useful.}

11th November 2009, 09:45 AM	#6
Safe-Keeper Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 4,374	That's what I keep trying to tell people - running in stairs, too, kills people, yet we never hear about it when some kid falls down the stairs at home and breaks his leg. It doesn't make national headlines when some innocent child eats peanut butter or candy with 'traces of nuts' and drops dead from an allergic reaction. But when swine flu vaccinations aren't 100% safe and may, like nearly everything else in the world, kill you, then it needs to be trumpeted from the mountaintops as if it somehow makes the vaccination dangerous. Better ban those stairs, too, before the Big Housing Industry kills even more people with them.
	__________________ "Then my war dogs joined the fray. I have to say I'm a bit afraid of them. One of the bitches actually gave birth while she was attacking, and her puppies joined in on the carnage." --the awesomeness that is Boatmurdered

10th November 2009, 01:28 PM	#2
taiyo Student Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: UK Posts: 36	Since you're in the USA, you should check out the Centers for Disease Control's swine flu vaccine information. It's comprehensive and it should answer most of your questions. The main thing to remember when looking things up on the internet is that you can find websites offering 'evidence' for and against any given point of view or theory. If you're not an expert in the subject you'll have no way to know which ones are right or wrong, so it's usually best to stick to official health advice.

11th November 2009, 09:59 AM	#7
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,253	They haven't indicated it really was from the flu vaccine. A certain percentage will already be incubating the flu when they get the shot. They will then get the flu before the 10 days that they get protection from the shot. My bets are that he nearly died from the FLU.
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

11th November 2009, 10:03 AM	#8
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,253	The typical media response is to announce the illness or death "after the shot", and then get stupid stock responses from authorities quoted BEFORE they determine what caused the illness or death (probably quotes not even related to the case they are reporting from, or that the authorities haven't even checked out or confirmed either way yet). In one case, the death was actually cause by a tumor. In another, the supposed dystonia wasn't even dystonia at all and most certainly wasn't caused by the flu vaccine, and in THIS case I'm willing to bet it was the actual flu that laid him out.
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

11th November 2009, 10:40 AM	#9
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,786	Kids die pretty much at random for various reasons. If you vaccinate a large enough group of kids you will have one die right after vaccination, pretty much a mathematical certainty. Correlation does not prove causation.
	__________________ A Liberal Dose of Talk Dog is my co-pilot. GENERATION 7: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

11th November 2009, 10:52 AM	#10
pgwenthold Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 8,795	How many non-vaccinated kids have died in the time since they have started giving H1N1 shots? If one dies after a shot, it makes the news. If they didn't have a shot, it doesn't make the news. It's a classic case of a one-sided result.
pgwenthold Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 8,795	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

11th November 2009, 12:00 PM	#11
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,127	These are the clinical trial studies on the pandemic H1N1 vaccines (note there are several different vaccines available generated from different seed stocks). Also note the offical name for this virus is pandemic H1N1; apparently the vets don't like swine flu as it's not a swine virus really. Is this insufficient testing that the anti-vaxxers complain of? It has been tested in animal models too. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/...EJMoa0907413v1 http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/...EJMoa0907650v1 The vaccine is adjuvanted so that a lower dose can be used but still generate the same antibody levels; so more doses are available.
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,127	Last edited by Capsid; 11th November 2009 at 12:02 PM.

11th November 2009, 01:01 PM	#12
taiyo Student Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: UK Posts: 36	Originally Posted by Capsid The vaccine is adjuvanted so that a lower dose can be used but still generate the same antibody levels; so more doses are available. I'm told it's also because the virus strain used didn't give a very good yield, so they needed to try and eke it out a bit. Thanks for those links.

11th November 2009, 01:17 PM	#13
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,127	Originally Posted by taiyo I'm told it's also because the virus strain used didn't give a very good yield, so they needed to try and eke it out a bit. Thanks for those links. Several vaccine strains were tried initially and these did have poor growth in chicken eggs, so newer strains were generated that had good growth characteristics. This is why the vaccine was available a little later than projected.
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,127

12th November 2009, 05:49 PM	#14
taiyo Student Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: UK Posts: 36	Originally Posted by Capsid Several vaccine strains were tried initially and these did have poor growth in chicken eggs, so newer strains were generated that had good growth characteristics. This is why the vaccine was available a little later than projected. Should have guessed from the name/avatar that you'd know about viruses!!

14th November 2009, 10:40 AM	#15
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,250	A couple of good blogs in addition to those mentioned above: PAL: http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/ Revere: http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,250	__________________ Read: Skeptico - Critical thinking for an irrational world

16th November 2009, 03:28 PM	#16
ksbluesfan Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 747	I'm having trouble finding the results from clinical trials. Most of these measure immune response, but they don't compare a group that is given a placebo to a group given the vaccination. I'd like to see something like that which shows the number of people who get the virus in each group. I don't care which strain of flu is studied, just the results. I want to present this info to a person who claims "there's no proof whatsoever that flu vaccines work".

16th November 2009, 03:55 PM	#17
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,127	Originally Posted by ksbluesfan I'm having trouble finding the results from clinical trials. Most of these measure immune response, but they don't compare a group that is given a placebo to a group given the vaccination. I'd like to see something like that which shows the number of people who get the virus in each group. I don't care which strain of flu is studied, just the results. I want to present this info to a person who claims "there's no proof whatsoever that flu vaccines work". http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...&ordinalpos=16 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...&ordinalpos=20
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,127

16th November 2009, 04:32 PM	#18
ksbluesfan Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 747	Originally Posted by Capsid http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...&ordinalpos=16 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...&ordinalpos=20 Thank you!!!

17th November 2009, 06:31 AM	#19
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,127	Originally Posted by ksbluesfan Thank you!!! No problem. Could you let us know if these studies convinced the person you are having a debate with?
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,127