XBOX and Piracy

BenBurch · 12th November 2009, 02:37 PM

So, recent reports have Microsoft banning the online use of XBOX 360 machines that have been modified to allow piracy and in fact sending commands to them to limit them in several other ways.

Some reports put the number of units limited by Microsoft's action at a million.

I'm am wondering at the legality of their move? Sure, I can see banning that console from online use, but what about the other actions they took like preventing disk extenders and invalidating console cryptographic keys? Seems to me that is one step beyond the line.

I don't have one; My gaming console is an Atari 2600. (seriously)

Newtons Bit · 12th November 2009, 03:08 PM

It's pretty damn ridiculous how they can brick something that you physically have and get away with it. I think they keep it legal by only licensing the operating system (like they do with windows) to you. They can do whatever they want to it if you violate the EULA.

That said, I'm buying Windows 7 today. Fekkers.

quixotecoyote · 12th November 2009, 03:35 PM

While I have 0 love for software pirates, I don't like the fact that you have to metaphorically bend over to make use of any commercial software.

Grizzly Bear · 12th November 2009, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

While I have 0 love for software pirates, I don't like the fact that you have to metaphorically bend over to make use of any commercial software.

But by physically obstructing the functionality of the entire hard drive you're completely screwed if you land a used console that was previously bricked, since the warranties on those things are non-transferable. I don't think they're too interested in what it does to the used-console market though.

BenBurch · 12th November 2009, 08:24 PM

In fact this makes every used console suspect and will kill the market for them. This in turn drives sales right to MS in time for Christmas.

Policenaut · 12th November 2009, 08:32 PM

A store like Gamestop could guarantee a functional 360 if they do proper testing but yes no one will be buying a used 360 from craigslist or ebay now.

Yalius · 12th November 2009, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

It's pretty damn ridiculous how they can brick something that you physically have and get away with it. I think they keep it legal by only licensing the operating system (like they do with windows) to you. They can do whatever they want to it if you violate the EULA.

That said, I'm buying Windows 7 today. Fekkers.

It's not being bricked, just blacklisted from organized online play and use of downloadable content. They will still play games just fine.

kuroyume0161 · 12th November 2009, 09:59 PM

As the saying goes: a program that cannot be pirated is one that has never been run.

Only blindness or blind faith can make someone think that some platform or encryption scheme or security feature can protect against piracy.

To relate a story from the last computer game fall (in the late-1980s/early-1990s), my friend had a friend who worked for Commodore Inc. in the time of the Amiga computer. Remember that he worked there! He had a shelved wall with floppy disks representing just about every program available for the Amiga computer (including all of its games) cracked and ready to use. The moral of the story - yeah, it's that easy.

Pidge · 12th November 2009, 10:20 PM

What I am aware of is Xbox Live accounts of people who were silly enough to be signed into Xbox Live while playing unauthorised copies of games before the release date of the game have been indefinitely suspended. Not bricking the Xbox itself.

This is how I found out about it: http://forums.toyspeed.org.nz/viewtopic.php?t=76109

kuroyume0161 · 12th November 2009, 10:25 PM

Pidge, you need an account to view the forum. You should mention that.

Pidge · 12th November 2009, 11:35 PM

Whoops

A quote from the forum instead:

Originally Posted by Akane at Toyspeed.org.nz

My mate with a xbox said that you can still mod and play your games, just don't be so stupid enough to play it before it's released in NZ, or else it's BANNED FOR LYFE!

I'd say that suspended until 12/31/9999 is pretty much "indefinite".

kuroyume0161 · 12th November 2009, 11:57 PM

That's harsh.

I guess the point here is that if you are getting pirated games, be patient (?).

El Greco · 13th November 2009, 01:37 AM

I suppose it's a matter of time until people find a way to reverse the banning.

Darat · 13th November 2009, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear

...snip... I don't think they're too interested in what it does to the used-console market though.

Oh I think they are....

After all this removes quite a few potential boxes from said used-console market, which means if people want a XBOX then they have to purchase from MS, which means more money for MS.

erlando · 13th November 2009, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

That's harsh.

I guess the point here is that if you are getting pirated games, be patient (?).

Or... *GASP*... Don't ~~steal~~ pirate games.

Darat · 13th November 2009, 01:53 AM

Or at least be willing to accept the consequences of your actions...

brodski · 13th November 2009, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by Yalius

It's not being bricked, just blacklisted from organized online play and use of downloadable content. They will still play games just fine.

So this is just annother example of MS ripping off ideas from Apple but not being as good at implementing them as Apple?

* brodski ducks.

BenBurch · 13th November 2009, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by El Greco

I suppose it's a matter of time until people find a way to reverse the banning.

Its called buying a new console.

Having invalidated the crypto keys in the banned console, you cannot use it any more.

richardm · 13th November 2009, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Its called buying a new console.

Having invalidated the crypto keys in the banned console, you cannot use it any more.

You cannot use it any more for xbox live - you can still use the console standalone.

NYCEMT86 · 13th November 2009, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by richardm

You cannot use it any more for xbox live - you can still use the console standalone.

Truth. My buddy just got console banned for having a modded box. MS just recently went on attack mode just before the release of MW2. Normally this can all be avoided by updating your firmware and not playing online before the release date. Needless to say, my buddy is now his 4th xbox, which is still cheaper than buying the games.

Grimes · 13th November 2009, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by NYCEMT86

Truth. My buddy just got console banned for having a modded box. MS just recently went on attack mode just before the release of MW2. Normally this can all be avoided by updating your firmware and not playing online before the release date. Needless to say, my buddy is now his 4th xbox, which is still cheaper than buying the games.

Tell your buddy he's a scumbag and is the reason why games cost $60.

Thanks.

Newtons Bit · 13th November 2009, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Yalius

It's not being bricked, just blacklisted from organized online play and use of downloadable content. They will still play games just fine.

This is what I get for not RTFA on slashdot when they talk about this kind of stuff

Wudang · 13th November 2009, 11:56 AM

Hmm, I might look for a banned xbox as I'm only interested in games I can dip in and out of and it might be cheaper.

erlando · 14th November 2009, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by NYCEMT86

Needless to say, my buddy is now his 4th xbox, which is still cheaper than buying the games.

(bolding mine)

He's probably proud of the fact that he has stolen so many games that he has been banned 4 times.

And yes. It is stealing ever which way you cut it. And if he can afford buying 4 (I'm still shocked by this) xbox'es maybe he could afford paying for the damn games.

quixotecoyote · 14th November 2009, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by erlando

(bolding mine)

He's probably proud of the fact that he has stolen so many games that he has been banned 4 times.

And yes. It is stealing ever which way you cut it. And if he can afford buying 4 (I'm still shocked by this) xbox'es maybe he could afford paying for the damn games.

No. It's wrong, but it's not stealing.

Stealing is when something is taken from it's proper owner. Nothing is taken in copyright infringement, except metaphorically. The original owner still has all his/her property, so it's not theft.

It's copyright infringement, which is wrong in our current system, but it's not theft.

erlando · 15th November 2009, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

No. It's wrong, but it's not stealing.

Stealing is when something is taken from it's proper owner. Nothing is taken in copyright infringement, except metaphorically. The original owner still has all his/her property, so it's not theft.

It's copyright infringement, which is wrong in our current system, but it's not theft.

I'm sorry but that is just a bad excuse.

Piracy is stealing. You take away value from the makers of the game. I don't care if you call it copyright infringement or anything else.

And morally it's just as bad as stealing as well.

And yes, I buy my games. I'm a software developer myself. My whole livelihood would disappear if people pirated my work.

Now tell me again it's not stealing.

GreNME · 15th November 2009, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

I'm a software developer myself. My whole livelihood would disappear if people pirated my work.

Demonstrably false if you develop commercially available software.

Look, I'm not defending piracy by any stretch. If anything, it makes inventorying a pain when time comes to upgrade, renew, or update software-- after all, why keep in mind all the arcane steps to pirate just to update? The answer is that most people don't update, and as a result a lot of software pirates are running buggy, sometimes insecure, and eventually frustratingly poor-performing stuff on their systems and blaming the manufacturers. However, in any of the available commercial markets for software, the development staff for any given company is not under threat of being out of work. Indeed, open-source development projects even seem to be able to employ programmers in many instances (there's a whole business model around it). The pirate-ability of a given software is not directly proportional to the availability of software development jobs. However, software piracy carries with it some of its very own detrimental effects (outside of pissing off companies who get huge margins of profit) that make it something to be criticized.

Also, it's nice to see that Microsoft isn't taking the Apple route and actually bricking their devices when the software is hacked-- Apple has a policy of bricking jailbroken iPhones through their software update.

dv82matt · 15th November 2009, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

I'm sorry but that is just a bad excuse.

Piracy is stealing. You take away value from the makers of the game. I don't care if you call it copyright infringement or anything else.

And morally it's just as bad as stealing as well.

And yes, I buy my games. I'm a software developer myself. My whole livelihood would disappear if people pirated my work.

Now tell me again it's not stealing.

It's not stealing.

It's also not murder or speeding or arson or drunk driving or slander. Calling things what they are and not what they are not is not any kind of "excuse".

By the way, I'm not defending or attacking piracy or copyright. The whole "piracy is stealing" campaign is just dishonest though.

erlando · 15th November 2009, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by dv82matt

It's not stealing.

Maybe not in the strictly legal sense. But morally there is absolutely no difference. The motive and result is the same. You get something for nothing by illegal means.

Originally Posted by dv82matt

It's also not murder or speeding or arson or drunk driving or slander. Calling things what they are and not what they are not is not any kind of "excuse".

The problem is that "it's not stealing it's just copyright infringement" is used as justification by a great number of pirates. I guess it makes them feel better.

Bottom line is that a lot of people is being affected by software piracy, up to and including those of us who have to pay more for the games and software to make up for the sometimes rampant piracy of said games and software.

Originally Posted by dv82matt

By the way, I'm not defending or attacking piracy or copyright. The whole "piracy is stealing" campaign is just dishonest though.

But if that is what is needed for the message to get through I have no problem whatsoever with calling it stealing.

erlando · 15th November 2009, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

Demonstrably false if you develop commercially available software.

********! And just another excuse. "It's a big company. It's not hurting them".

I'm not employed by a big company. I'm by myself in a small market. If people start to pirate my commercially available work (as in standard modules for standard software) I'm out of business very fast.

Funny as people think it's ok to pirate games but would think twice about stealing a chocolate bar from Wal-Mart. Just because it's not a physical object it still affects the bottom line of the company you're removing value from.

And just to nip the "it's just trying before buying"-argument in the butt, here's an interesting article about that: http://smellslikedonkey.com/wordpress/?page_id=274

kritter · 15th November 2009, 08:44 AM

And most modders don't even use the modified systems for piracy, many times it's so they can emulate old games they have as digital files and play them on a TV and console instead of their computer for nostalgia

GreNME · 15th November 2009, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

********! And just another excuse. "It's a big company. It's not hurting them".

I'm not employed by a big company. I'm by myself in a small market. If people start to pirate my commercially available work (as in standard modules for standard software) I'm out of business very fast.

Funny as people think it's ok to pirate games but would think twice about stealing a chocolate bar from Wal-Mart. Just because it's not a physical object it still affects the bottom line of the company you're removing value from.

And just to nip the "it's just trying before buying"-argument in the butt, here's an interesting article about that: http://smellslikedonkey.com/wordpress/?page_id=274

Instead of arguing against a strawman that I didn't state, how about actually addressing the things I did put forward?

Newtons Bit · 15th November 2009, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by kritter

And most modders don't even use the modified systems for piracy, many times it's so they can emulate old games they have as digital files and play them on a TV and console instead of their computer for nostalgia

You can do this on an XBOX 360. You have to join the Premium Creators Club and know a bit of coding, but it can be done legally.

Arus808 · 15th November 2009, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Grimes

Tell your buddy he's a scumbag and is the reason why games cost $60.

Thanks.

Yes and no.

That $60 game can be to the fact that the game costs $2 million - $10 million to produce. A game like MW2 which has been in production for at least 2 years, that's a lot of time and money that they need to make back. Unlike blockbuster movies where millions of people will watch the movie and sometimes more than once, the profit margin on a movie ticket to movie cost, is lower than the profit margin of a game being made.

A $60 game, actually has a price of ~ $39 for the game company. The price difference is the shop that has to sell it and make back their money. That includes all the fun stuff, like packaging, marketing, production costs and LICENSING fees to the console makers. Nintendo upped their licensing fee for the Nintendo DS 2 years ago; Sony just upped their licensing fee for the PSP Go.

And dont even forget that the ESRB also has to be paid to RATE your game (around $40,000 per submission, and if you fail you have to pay again to get it rated, and if you have a title that spans multiple consoles thats $40K per submission). And you can't sell a game in commercial stores (like GameStop, WalMart, Target, Amazon) without a rating on your game.

A game priced at $60 must sell at minimum, usually 500,000 copies just to break even. A million just to see a moderate profit. of course millions to even judge it as a success.

So the cost is partially due to piracy (less copies sold means that the company loses profit, thereby denying the next project the money needed to promote it and sell it, and even produce it)

So the rise in cost of games has to do with everyone who has their hands in the proverbial pie. Productions of games are becoming more expensive, because of newer technology; licensing fees; rating fees , and even piracy.

I've been in the video game industry for nearly 10 years. Production and now marketing. I know the hoops that companies have to go through to get a game made.

erlando · 15th November 2009, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

Instead of arguing against a strawman that I didn't state, how about actually addressing the things I did put forward?

Originally Posted by GreNME

However, in any of the available commercial markets for software, the development staff for any given company is not under threat of being out of work

Originally Posted by erlando

I'm not employed by a big company. I'm by myself in a small market. If people start to pirate my commercially available work (as in standard modules for standard software) I'm out of business very fast.

I did.

BenBurch · 15th November 2009, 02:00 PM

I personally know of three game software developers whose software was so universally pirated that they are not making games any more.

Normal Dude · 15th November 2009, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Arus808

And dont even forget that the ESRB also has to be paid to RATE your game (around $40,000 per submission, and if you fail you have to pay again to get it rated, and if you have a title that spans multiple consoles thats $40K per submission). And you can't sell a game in commercial stores (like GameStop, WalMart, Target, Amazon) without a rating on your game.

40K a submission?! That's one heck of a racket they have going on there. Is there any sort of a justification for that price tag?

bokonon · 15th November 2009, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by dv82matt

It's not stealing.

It's also not murder or speeding or arson or drunk driving or slander. Calling things what they are and not what they are not is not any kind of "excuse".

By the way, I'm not defending or attacking piracy or copyright. The whole "piracy is stealing" campaign is just dishonest though.

It is stealing as far as I'm concerned.

If a comedian accuses a fellow comedian of stealing his jokes, or a magician accuses a fellow magician of stealing his routine, they aren't using the word "steal" in a new and unconventional way. If a girl says a boy "stole a kiss" she's using the word the same way.

I don't know where the idea got started that it's only stealing if you take a physical object. If I hire someone to paint my house and provide the materials, it's "theft of services" if I subsequently decline to pay him. Piracy is theft of services, which is stealing.

dv82matt · 15th November 2009, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by bokonon

It is stealing as far as I'm concerned.

If a comedian accuses a fellow comedian of stealing his jokes, or a magician accuses a fellow magician of stealing his routine, they aren't using the word "steal" in a new and unconventional way. If a girl says a boy "stole a kiss" she's using the word the same way.

Language is flexible, the same word can refer to different concepts as you point out. But you are wrong when you say the word is being used in the same way.

Quote:

I don't know where the idea got started that it's only stealing if you take a physical object. If I hire someone to paint my house and provide the materials, it's "theft of services" if I subsequently decline to pay him. Piracy is theft of services, which is stealing.

Theft of services is stealing but piracy is not theft of services. Piracy is unauthorized copying or recording. Its more analogous to trespassing than stealing.

bokonon · 15th November 2009, 03:04 PM

I don't see how it's more analogous to trespassing. You're getting the use of the services, and you're not paying for them. The services were created as a commercial endeavor. It's not like you're breaking into someone's house to use the toilet, it's like you're sneaking into the theater to watch the movie.

12th November 2009, 02:37 PM	#1
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,785	XBOX and Piracy So, recent reports have Microsoft banning the online use of XBOX 360 machines that have been modified to allow piracy and in fact sending commands to them to limit them in several other ways. Some reports put the number of units limited by Microsoft's action at a million. I'm am wondering at the legality of their move? Sure, I can see banning that console from online use, but what about the other actions they took like preventing disk extenders and invalidating console cryptographic keys? Seems to me that is one step beyond the line. I don't have one; My gaming console is an Atari 2600. (seriously)
	__________________ A Liberal Dose of Talk Dog is my co-pilot. GENERATION 7: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

12th November 2009, 03:08 PM	#2
Newtons Bit Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,612	It's pretty damn ridiculous how they can brick something that you physically have and get away with it. I think they keep it legal by only licensing the operating system (like they do with windows) to you. They can do whatever they want to it if you violate the EULA. That said, I'm buying Windows 7 today. Fekkers.
	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein

12th November 2009, 03:35 PM	#3
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,300	While I have 0 love for software pirates, I don't like the fact that you have to metaphorically bend over to make use of any commercial software.
	__________________ Ladewig: I'll start worrying about the media's liberal bias the day I hear of labor negotiations described as management demands and union concessions. Thank you for the avatar xkcd.

12th November 2009, 08:17 PM	#4
Grizzly Bear このマスクによっ Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,091	Originally Posted by quixotecoyote While I have 0 love for software pirates, I don't like the fact that you have to metaphorically bend over to make use of any commercial software. But by physically obstructing the functionality of the entire hard drive you're completely screwed if you land a used console that was previously bricked, since the warranties on those things are non-transferable. I don't think they're too interested in what it does to the used-console market though.
Grizzly Bear このマスクによっ Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,091	__________________ "You don't understand. That is what death is. And from now until this battle is over, there will not be one single thing your mind can fathom." Linky Halloween rendering project http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/5522/dhikisig.png

12th November 2009, 08:24 PM	#5
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,785	In fact this makes every used console suspect and will kill the market for them. This in turn drives sales right to MS in time for Christmas.
	__________________ A Liberal Dose of Talk Dog is my co-pilot. GENERATION 7: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

12th November 2009, 08:32 PM	#6
Policenaut Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Shadow Moses Island Posts: 1,330	A store like Gamestop could guarantee a functional 360 if they do proper testing but yes no one will be buying a used 360 from craigslist or ebay now.

12th November 2009, 09:11 PM	#7
Yalius Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 213	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit It's pretty damn ridiculous how they can brick something that you physically have and get away with it. I think they keep it legal by only licensing the operating system (like they do with windows) to you. They can do whatever they want to it if you violate the EULA. That said, I'm buying Windows 7 today. Fekkers. It's not being bricked, just blacklisted from organized online play and use of downloadable content. They will still play games just fine.
Yalius Thinker Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 213

12th November 2009, 09:59 PM	#8
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Calhan, CO, USA Posts: 1,233	As the saying goes: a program that cannot be pirated is one that has never been run. Only blindness or blind faith can make someone think that some platform or encryption scheme or security feature can protect against piracy. To relate a story from the last computer game fall (in the late-1980s/early-1990s), my friend had a friend who worked for Commodore Inc. in the time of the Amiga computer. Remember that he worked there! He had a shelved wall with floppy disks representing just about every program available for the Amiga computer (including all of its games) cracked and ready to use. The moral of the story - yeah, it's that easy.

12th November 2009, 10:20 PM	#9
Pidge Thinker Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Watching the sunset from Mt Ruapehu Posts: 223	What I am aware of is Xbox Live accounts of people who were silly enough to be signed into Xbox Live while playing unauthorised copies of games before the release date of the game have been indefinitely suspended. Not bricking the Xbox itself. This is how I found out about it: http://forums.toyspeed.org.nz/viewtopic.php?t=76109
	__________________ "Never argue with an idiot. They'll pull you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Unknown

12th November 2009, 10:25 PM	#10
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Calhan, CO, USA Posts: 1,233	Pidge, you need an account to view the forum. You should mention that.

12th November 2009, 11:35 PM	#11
Pidge Thinker Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Watching the sunset from Mt Ruapehu Posts: 223	Whoops A quote from the forum instead: Originally Posted by Akane at Toyspeed.org.nz My mate with a xbox said that you can still mod and play your games, just don't be so stupid enough to play it before it's released in NZ, or else it's BANNED FOR LYFE! I'd say that suspended until 12/31/9999 is pretty much "indefinite".
	__________________ "Never argue with an idiot. They'll pull you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Unknown

12th November 2009, 11:57 PM	#12
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Calhan, CO, USA Posts: 1,233	That's harsh. I guess the point here is that if you are getting pirated games, be patient (?).

13th November 2009, 01:37 AM	#13
El Greco Summer worshipper Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Παρά θιν'αλός Posts: 11,783	I suppose it's a matter of time until people find a way to reverse the banning.
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13th November 2009, 01:45 AM	#14
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,693	Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear ...snip... I don't think they're too interested in what it does to the used-console market though. Oh I think they are.... After all this removes quite a few potential boxes from said used-console market, which means if people want a XBOX then they have to purchase from MS, which means more money for MS.
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13th November 2009, 01:52 AM	#15
erlando Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Denmark Posts: 448	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 That's harsh. I guess the point here is that if you are getting pirated games, be patient (?). Or... GASP... Don't ~~steal~~ pirate games.
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13th November 2009, 01:53 AM	#16
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,693	Or at least be willing to accept the consequences of your actions...
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

13th November 2009, 02:23 AM	#17
brodski faceless bureaucrat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: the three Chiltern Hundreds of Stoke, Desborough and Burnham Posts: 11,789	Originally Posted by Yalius It's not being bricked, just blacklisted from organized online play and use of downloadable content. They will still play games just fine. So this is just annother example of MS ripping off ideas from Apple but not being as good at implementing them as Apple? * brodski ducks.
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13th November 2009, 06:03 AM	#18
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,785	Originally Posted by El Greco I suppose it's a matter of time until people find a way to reverse the banning. Its called buying a new console. Having invalidated the crypto keys in the banned console, you cannot use it any more.
	__________________ A Liberal Dose of Talk Dog is my co-pilot. GENERATION 7: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

13th November 2009, 06:06 AM	#19
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,550	Originally Posted by BenBurch Its called buying a new console. Having invalidated the crypto keys in the banned console, you cannot use it any more. You cannot use it any more for xbox live - you can still use the console standalone.
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,550	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

13th November 2009, 06:40 AM	#20
NYCEMT86 Muse Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Slums of Brooklyn Posts: 781	Originally Posted by richardm You cannot use it any more for xbox live - you can still use the console standalone. Truth. My buddy just got console banned for having a modded box. MS just recently went on attack mode just before the release of MW2. Normally this can all be avoided by updating your firmware and not playing online before the release date. Needless to say, my buddy is now his 4th xbox, which is still cheaper than buying the games.
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13th November 2009, 07:03 AM	#21
Grimes Scholar Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 69	Originally Posted by NYCEMT86 Truth. My buddy just got console banned for having a modded box. MS just recently went on attack mode just before the release of MW2. Normally this can all be avoided by updating your firmware and not playing online before the release date. Needless to say, my buddy is now his 4th xbox, which is still cheaper than buying the games. Tell your buddy he's a scumbag and is the reason why games cost $60. Thanks.
Grimes Scholar Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 69

13th November 2009, 09:28 AM	#22
Newtons Bit Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,612	Originally Posted by Yalius It's not being bricked, just blacklisted from organized online play and use of downloadable content. They will still play games just fine. This is what I get for not RTFA on slashdot when they talk about this kind of stuff
	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein

13th November 2009, 11:56 AM	#23
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sheffield Posts: 4,412	Hmm, I might look for a banned xbox as I'm only interested in games I can dip in and out of and it might be cheaper.
	__________________ Aphorism: Subjects most likely to be declared inappropriate for humor are the ones most in need of it.

14th November 2009, 02:12 PM	#24
erlando Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Denmark Posts: 448	Originally Posted by NYCEMT86 Needless to say, my buddy is now his 4th xbox, which is still cheaper than buying the games. (bolding mine) He's probably proud of the fact that he has stolen so many games that he has been banned 4 times. And yes. It is stealing ever which way you cut it. And if he can afford buying 4 (I'm still shocked by this) xbox'es maybe he could afford paying for the damn games.
	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

14th November 2009, 03:00 PM	#25
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 6,300	Originally Posted by erlando (bolding mine) He's probably proud of the fact that he has stolen so many games that he has been banned 4 times. And yes. It is stealing ever which way you cut it. And if he can afford buying 4 (I'm still shocked by this) xbox'es maybe he could afford paying for the damn games. No. It's wrong, but it's not stealing. Stealing is when something is taken from it's proper owner. Nothing is taken in copyright infringement, except metaphorically. The original owner still has all his/her property, so it's not theft. It's copyright infringement, which is wrong in our current system, but it's not theft.
	__________________ Ladewig: I'll start worrying about the media's liberal bias the day I hear of labor negotiations described as management demands and union concessions. Thank you for the avatar xkcd.

15th November 2009, 02:01 AM	#26
erlando Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Denmark Posts: 448	Originally Posted by quixotecoyote No. It's wrong, but it's not stealing. Stealing is when something is taken from it's proper owner. Nothing is taken in copyright infringement, except metaphorically. The original owner still has all his/her property, so it's not theft. It's copyright infringement, which is wrong in our current system, but it's not theft. I'm sorry but that is just a bad excuse. Piracy is stealing. You take away value from the makers of the game. I don't care if you call it copyright infringement or anything else. And morally it's just as bad as stealing as well. And yes, I buy my games. I'm a software developer myself. My whole livelihood would disappear if people pirated my work. Now tell me again it's not stealing.
	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

15th November 2009, 03:07 AM	#27
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 6,412	Originally Posted by erlando I'm a software developer myself. My whole livelihood would disappear if people pirated my work. Demonstrably false if you develop commercially available software. Look, I'm not defending piracy by any stretch. If anything, it makes inventorying a pain when time comes to upgrade, renew, or update software-- after all, why keep in mind all the arcane steps to pirate just to update? The answer is that most people don't update, and as a result a lot of software pirates are running buggy, sometimes insecure, and eventually frustratingly poor-performing stuff on their systems and blaming the manufacturers. However, in any of the available commercial markets for software, the development staff for any given company is not under threat of being out of work. Indeed, open-source development projects even seem to be able to employ programmers in many instances (there's a whole business model around it). The pirate-ability of a given software is not directly proportional to the availability of software development jobs. However, software piracy carries with it some of its very own detrimental effects (outside of pissing off companies who get huge margins of profit) that make it something to be criticized. Also, it's nice to see that Microsoft isn't taking the Apple route and actually bricking their devices when the software is hacked-- Apple has a policy of bricking jailbroken iPhones through their software update.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

15th November 2009, 04:57 AM	#28
dv82matt Scholar Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 104	Originally Posted by erlando I'm sorry but that is just a bad excuse. Piracy is stealing. You take away value from the makers of the game. I don't care if you call it copyright infringement or anything else. And morally it's just as bad as stealing as well. And yes, I buy my games. I'm a software developer myself. My whole livelihood would disappear if people pirated my work. Now tell me again it's not stealing. It's not stealing. It's also not murder or speeding or arson or drunk driving or slander. Calling things what they are and not what they are not is not any kind of "excuse". By the way, I'm not defending or attacking piracy or copyright. The whole "piracy is stealing" campaign is just dishonest though.
dv82matt Scholar Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 104

15th November 2009, 07:36 AM	#29
erlando Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Denmark Posts: 448	Originally Posted by dv82matt It's not stealing. Maybe not in the strictly legal sense. But morally there is absolutely no difference. The motive and result is the same. You get something for nothing by illegal means. Originally Posted by dv82matt It's also not murder or speeding or arson or drunk driving or slander. Calling things what they are and not what they are not is not any kind of "excuse". The problem is that "it's not stealing it's just copyright infringement" is used as justification by a great number of pirates. I guess it makes them feel better. Bottom line is that a lot of people is being affected by software piracy, up to and including those of us who have to pay more for the games and software to make up for the sometimes rampant piracy of said games and software. Originally Posted by dv82matt By the way, I'm not defending or attacking piracy or copyright. The whole "piracy is stealing" campaign is just dishonest though. But if that is what is needed for the message to get through I have no problem whatsoever with calling it stealing.
	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

15th November 2009, 07:46 AM	#30
erlando Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Denmark Posts: 448	Originally Posted by GreNME Demonstrably false if you develop commercially available software. ********! And just another excuse. "It's a big company. It's not hurting them". I'm not employed by a big company. I'm by myself in a small market. If people start to pirate my commercially available work (as in standard modules for standard software) I'm out of business very fast. Funny as people think it's ok to pirate games but would think twice about stealing a chocolate bar from Wal-Mart. Just because it's not a physical object it still affects the bottom line of the company you're removing value from. And just to nip the "it's just trying before buying"-argument in the butt, here's an interesting article about that: http://smellslikedonkey.com/wordpress/?page_id=274
	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

15th November 2009, 08:44 AM	#31
kritter Student Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 31	And most modders don't even use the modified systems for piracy, many times it's so they can emulate old games they have as digital files and play them on a TV and console instead of their computer for nostalgia
kritter Student Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 31

15th November 2009, 10:15 AM	#32
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 6,412	Originally Posted by erlando ********! And just another excuse. "It's a big company. It's not hurting them". I'm not employed by a big company. I'm by myself in a small market. If people start to pirate my commercially available work (as in standard modules for standard software) I'm out of business very fast. Funny as people think it's ok to pirate games but would think twice about stealing a chocolate bar from Wal-Mart. Just because it's not a physical object it still affects the bottom line of the company you're removing value from. And just to nip the "it's just trying before buying"-argument in the butt, here's an interesting article about that: http://smellslikedonkey.com/wordpress/?page_id=274 Instead of arguing against a strawman that I didn't state, how about actually addressing the things I did put forward?
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

15th November 2009, 10:46 AM	#33
Newtons Bit Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,612	Originally Posted by kritter And most modders don't even use the modified systems for piracy, many times it's so they can emulate old games they have as digital files and play them on a TV and console instead of their computer for nostalgia You can do this on an XBOX 360. You have to join the Premium Creators Club and know a bit of coding, but it can be done legally.
	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein

15th November 2009, 11:42 AM	#34
Arus808 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,811	Originally Posted by Grimes Tell your buddy he's a scumbag and is the reason why games cost $60. Thanks. Yes and no. That $60 game can be to the fact that the game costs $2 million - $10 million to produce. A game like MW2 which has been in production for at least 2 years, that's a lot of time and money that they need to make back. Unlike blockbuster movies where millions of people will watch the movie and sometimes more than once, the profit margin on a movie ticket to movie cost, is lower than the profit margin of a game being made. A $60 game, actually has a price of ~ $39 for the game company. The price difference is the shop that has to sell it and make back their money. That includes all the fun stuff, like packaging, marketing, production costs and LICENSING fees to the console makers. Nintendo upped their licensing fee for the Nintendo DS 2 years ago; Sony just upped their licensing fee for the PSP Go. And dont even forget that the ESRB also has to be paid to RATE your game (around $40,000 per submission, and if you fail you have to pay again to get it rated, and if you have a title that spans multiple consoles thats $40K per submission). And you can't sell a game in commercial stores (like GameStop, WalMart, Target, Amazon) without a rating on your game. A game priced at $60 must sell at minimum, usually 500,000 copies just to break even. A million just to see a moderate profit. of course millions to even judge it as a success. So the cost is partially due to piracy (less copies sold means that the company loses profit, thereby denying the next project the money needed to promote it and sell it, and even produce it) So the rise in cost of games has to do with everyone who has their hands in the proverbial pie. Productions of games are becoming more expensive, because of newer technology; licensing fees; rating fees , and even piracy. I've been in the video game industry for nearly 10 years. Production and now marketing. I know the hoops that companies have to go through to get a game made.
Arus808 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,811	__________________ "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes ( The Sign of Four ) "The main accomplishment of almost all organized protests is to annoy people who are not in them." - Dave Barry ( 25 Things I Learned in 50 Years ) *.:~:. R.I.P. Keiko .:~:.* Last edited by Arus808; 15th November 2009 at 11:53 AM.

15th November 2009, 01:37 PM	#35
erlando Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Denmark Posts: 448	Originally Posted by GreNME Instead of arguing against a strawman that I didn't state, how about actually addressing the things I did put forward? Originally Posted by GreNME However, in any of the available commercial markets for software, the development staff for any given company is not under threat of being out of work Originally Posted by erlando I'm not employed by a big company. I'm by myself in a small market. If people start to pirate my commercially available work (as in standard modules for standard software) I'm out of business very fast. I did.
	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker Last edited by erlando; 15th November 2009 at 01:38 PM.