"Windows 7 'took ideas' from Apple"

Darat · 13th November 2009, 05:10 AM

"Windows 7 'took ideas' from Apple"

Quote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8358712.stm

"One of the things that people say an awful lot about the Apple Mac is that the OS is fantastic, that it's very graphical and easy to use," Mr Aldous told PCR.

"What we've tried to do with Windows 7 - whether it's traditional format or in a touch format - is create a Mac look and feel in terms of graphics.

(And please lets not get into any mac v pc, Apple v Microsoft fanboy crap.)

I've been using Windows 7 as my main PC's OS since it was released and my secondary PC is a Mac running OS/X and I have to say I really can't see what MS is meant to have borrowed from the Mac with the release of Windows 7. And certainly to me the two OSs have a very distinct "look and feel in terms of graphics".

The nearest I can think of anything that approaches a "borrow" from OS/X would be the changes to Windows' Taskbar and Apple's Dock, but they look and feel very different to me.

Anyone spotted any obvious "borrows"?

shawmutt · 13th November 2009, 05:16 AM

Well, I haven't used an OS X since Panther, and just started using Windows 7, but I would say the taskbar is the biggest "borrow" from Mac.

richardm · 13th November 2009, 06:08 AM

I haven't used a mac in 15 years, so I can't comment on specifics. However I have a nagging suspicion that saying "it's more mac-like than before" is a marketing gambit designed to lure people who hear nothing but how superior the Mac experience is.

Ducky · 13th November 2009, 07:38 AM

Every time Windows or Mac or linux (gnome, kde etc.) does a release I see these claims. Best as I can tell it's nothing more than fanboyisms.

brodski · 13th November 2009, 07:43 AM

According to the article on el reg (on phone so no link) this guy had no involvment with windows 7 development and MS have distanced themselveas from his claims, not sure what is going on here.

Darat · 13th November 2009, 08:43 AM

I was just using that as a stepping stone to the topic - I've heard similar claims from other sources.

jsiv · 13th November 2009, 10:20 AM

While the changes in Vista/7 are more evolutionary than a straight clone of OS X (obviously), I think you'd have to be pretty delusional not to believe that Microsoft didn't get the "inspiration" to pretty their OS up from Apple (their biggest competitor).

Darat · 13th November 2009, 10:27 AM

But I don't see where any such "inspiration" shows through in terms of taking any design cues etc. from OS/X. Sure MS tarted it up so it would look good against the competition but that is quite different from borrowing elements.

GreNME · 13th November 2009, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Ducky

Every time Windows or Mac or linux (gnome, kde etc.) does a release I see these claims. Best as I can tell it's nothing more than fanboyisms.

++

OS comparisons are stuck in BASIC.

10 Release New OS
20 Competitors Claim Copying
30 GOTO 10

The new Taskbar doesn't even work like the Dock (thank goodness). As for looks, it looks like the Dock in the same way that Windows Quick Launch resembled the dock, except Quick Launch has been in Windows for more than a decade and Windows finally integrated it with the older Taskbar in a seamless manner. Both systems created their launchers similarly because that works best from a UI perspective, much like how the Widgets/Gadgets thing came from similar roots that originally belonged to neither Microsoft nor Apple.

BenBurch · 13th November 2009, 02:35 PM

There are only so many ways to make a WIMP interface that make sense.

a_unique_person · 14th November 2009, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

The nearest I can think of anything that approaches a "borrow" from OS/X would be the changes to Windows' Taskbar and Apple's Dock, but they look and feel very different to me.

Anyone spotted any obvious "borrows"?

It's just reducing the argument to the difference in a few pieces of graphical sugar on the screen. The OS wars are over, they all do the same thing reasonably competently.

daSkeptic · 14th November 2009, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

The OS wars are over, they all do the same thing reasonably competently.

From the perspective of the average consumer, I would agree. For people who have very-specific technical requirements, not necessarily. Thus, I suppose it really comes down to how one defines "OS wars."

shawmutt · 15th November 2009, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

From the perspective of the average consumer, I would agree. For people who have very-specific technical requirements, not necessarily. Thus, I suppose it really comes down to how one defines "OS wars."

Like people who play video games

ThatSoundAgain · 15th November 2009, 12:11 PM

Well, I haven't seen Win7, but if they did copy from Apple, that's a good thing. I mean, I'm all for UI designers copying concepts from each other, as long as they try to only copy the good ones. Everyone gets better UIs that way.

Apple is not exactly innocent in that regard, all the way back to Xerox and the original Mac they've had a policy of copying the best bits of other software, and improving on the bits that are not as good.

What I can only hope for is a shift at MS towards more usability-driven design. More testing with non-engineers, and more of a final word for the usability people (as opposed to the hard-core engineering types). Would make my life as the go-to-tech-support guy in my circle of friends that much easier.

daSkeptic · 15th November 2009, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by shawmutt

Like people who play video games

Yes, that is one such group actually.

phantomb · 16th November 2009, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by ThatSoundAgain

Apple is not exactly innocent in that regard, all the way back to Xerox and the original Mac they've had a policy of copying the best bits of other software

In the case of Apple and Xerox didn't millions of dollars in stock change hands?

Corsair 115 · 16th November 2009, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by shawmutt

Like people who play video games

That's what consoles are for.

BenBurch · 18th November 2009, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by phantomb

In the case of Apple and Xerox didn't millions of dollars in stock change hands?

Yes. It was entirely above-board.

Whiplash · 18th November 2009, 11:54 AM

It sounds to me like poisoning the well. It's the kind of thing I'd expect someone to say ahead of time, when they expect that the thing in question will probably do well. Gotta get out there right away and paint it badly to color the impressions people get. Can't let them run it and go "wow, this is the nicest version of Windows so far". That's not acceptable. We must first accuse them of copying us totally. And then we'll make a new snarky ad that implies that Windows claims "this one will fix all the problems, trust us this time!" to run like crazy.

This is just poisoning the well from Apple people and fans who sense their own irrelevance is growing, and that Microsoft is starting to get some things right. We must do all we can to stop that in it's tracks!'

And no, I'm not "pro PC" as much as I am "anti MAC". And not without good reason. They have spent a decade or more being arrogant, insulting jerks. So I don't like them, and am untrusting of things they say and claim.

greymatters · 18th November 2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8358712.stm

"One of the things that people say an awful lot about the Apple Mac is that the OS is fantastic, that it's very graphical and easy to use," Mr Aldous told PCR.

"What we've tried to do with Windows 7 - whether it's traditional format or in a touch format - is create a Mac look and feel in terms of graphics.

The oddest thing about this quote is that, at first, it seems to acknowledge the importance of an OS's qualities beyond the graphical ("ease of use"), and then goes on to say that the graphics, the surface was all that was copied.

This quote seems to have an odd disconnect with itself.

Ducky · 18th November 2009, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Whiplash

And no, I'm not "pro PC" as much as I am "anti MAC". And not without good reason. They have spent a decade or more being arrogant, insulting jerks. So I don't like them, and am untrusting of things they say and claim.

You do know there are people who use macs who aren't wearing black turtlenecks and drinking the mac-kool-aid to turn themselves into pretentious pricks, right?

kuroyume0161 · 18th November 2009, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ducky

You do know there are people who use macs who aren't wearing black turtlenecks and drinking the mac-kool-aid to turn themselves into pretentious pricks, right?

There are definitely less of them these days since Apple has gone more modern and mainstream. Nonetheless, I'd have to agree with Whiplash to a degree about the arrogance of many of them in the past. As a programmer just delving into Macs a few years back (through an application SDK but where I needed to access some of the OS functionality) asking seemingly simple questions nicely, I was berated, ridiculed, asked why I hadn't read the 550 2000 page documents (or was that 2000 550 page documents) at developer.apple.com, and so on. It is one thing to nicely point to places to look. It is another to be insulting and condescending right from the start. The situation did improve as calmer heads actually started 'helping'.

The attitude has abated to a point. Part of that is that they now have to deal with tens of thousands of new programmers entering the fray of iPhone app development. On the other hand, Apple itself has been less than reasonable in dealing with developer support, getting applications through their evaluation process and onto the App Store, and making scheduled payments. Circumstances are changing but will take time for resolution.

One has to remember that these things are just electronic machines and software - tools. I don't like Linux OSs myself (since I like things to be simple and quick not geeky and mysterious) but that doesn't make me rail against Linux. I use both Windows and MacOS on a regular basis. Each has its good and bad points. This is why I avoid the 'Mac vs PC' (actually Mac vs Windows) flame wars. These aren't about the tools, they are about unreasonable people.

Ducky · 18th November 2009, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

These aren't about the tools, they are about unreasonable people.

This statement is one I could not agree with more.

I use all sorts of various hardware and software configurations. I use macs, I use linux, I use Solaris/OpenSolaris, I use windows (allbeit rarely).

Tools do not beget themselves to "I am better than you." The wrench does not say to the hammer it is more functional. That only happens when the owners of said tools decide to act like douchebags.

GreNME · 18th November 2009, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ducky

You do know there are people who use macs who aren't wearing black turtlenecks and drinking the mac-kool-aid to turn themselves into pretentious pricks, right?

You mean I bought those shirts and the gallons of kool-aid for nothing?

Crap.

For laffs: I can verify yet again that Win 7 actually runs faster on a MacBook Pro than OS X does.

negativ · 19th November 2009, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

You mean I bought those shirts and the gallons of kool-aid for nothing?

Crap.

For laffs: I can verify yet again that Win 7 actually runs faster on a MacBook Pro than OS X does.

Oh yeah? Well, Puppy Linux runs faster on my fully-calibrated electric egg beater than OS X *OR* Win7 runs on a MacBook Pro, so there!

Whiplash · 19th November 2009, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ducky

You do know there are people who use macs who aren't wearing black turtlenecks and drinking the mac-kool-aid to turn themselves into pretentious pricks, right?

Yes, sorry, I was ranting. My passion often overrides my more reasoned thinking process. Sorry.

It's just that those commercials really got to me. The newest ones aren't terrible or anything. I mean way back, where the person who just switched would tell the tale of woe about how their PC was infested with demons from hell and practically exploded any time they tried to open a simple document. I'm not sure if you remember these commercials, they predate the latest "switch" ones I think. It may have been the start of the same campaign. But it was where real users told horror stories that were clearly hyperbolic.

GreNME · 19th November 2009, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by negativ

Oh yeah? Well, Puppy Linux runs faster on my fully-calibrated electric egg beater than OS X *OR* Win7 runs on a MacBook Pro, so there!

I suggest using DamnSmall instead, since it's more useful and versatile.

(DSL brought an old 333 Mhz laptop back to life here at home... quite awesome indeed

)

Ducky · 19th November 2009, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

I suggest using DamnSmall instead, since it's more useful and versatile.

(DSL brought an old 333 Mhz laptop back to life here at home... quite awesome indeed

)

I prefer DamnSmall's packaging system to Puppy's. Purely personal preference, they both are functional.

ETA: TO clarify, I prefer using APT to the packaging puppy uses, you have to run a script for DSL to actually use APT, though. Once installed you can use the debian repos.

technoextreme · 21st November 2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Ducky

You do know there are people who use macs who aren't wearing black turtlenecks and drinking the mac-kool-aid to turn themselves into pretentious pricks, right?

Well why does Apple advertise it that way?

elgarak · 21st November 2009, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by technoextreme

Well why does Apple advertise it that way?

They don't.

(You do realize that in the "I'm a Mac I'm a PC" ads Justin Long and John Hodgman play a Mac and a PC, don't you? The computers. Not the users.)

GreNME · 21st November 2009, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by elgarak

They don't.

(You do realize that in the "I'm a Mac I'm a PC" ads Justin Long and John Hodgman play a Mac and a PC, don't you? The computers. Not the users.)

Are you serious? Do you really not see the characterizations they make, and have been making about their computers since, well, 1984?

John Mayer · 21st November 2009, 07:51 PM

Well, this "fanboyism" came from a MicroSoft executive. Of course, the BIG borrow was in deriving the entire Windows interface from the Mac long ago. One of Apple's biggest marketing mistakes (and they have made many, while Microsoft excels on that score) was settling that infringement suit way too cheaply.

Rat · 23rd November 2009, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by John Mayer

Well, this "fanboyism" came from a MicroSoft executive. Of course, the BIG borrow was in deriving the entire Windows interface from the Mac long ago. One of Apple's biggest marketing mistakes (and they have made many, while Microsoft excels on that score) was settling that infringement suit way too cheaply.

Jesus Christ, do we really have to go through this again? Yes, the entire Windows interface, also known as the trashcan icon, was of course derived entirely and solely from the Mac.

kuroyume0161 · 23rd November 2009, 08:08 AM

Both of them lifted the ideas of a user interface (GUI), mouse input, among other things from Xerox PARC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_C...ft_Corporation

That dog won't hunt...

technoextreme · 23rd November 2009, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by elgarak

They don't.

(You do realize that in the "I'm a Mac I'm a PC" ads Justin Long and John Hodgman play a Mac and a PC, don't you? The computers. Not the users.)

Yeah. The only thing the commercials make me want to do is smash a Mac into thousands of little pieces with a sledgehammer.

Psi Baba · 23rd November 2009, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Sure MS tarted it up . . .

Heh, I'm picturing you in a Windows 7 commercial. "Lately I've been wanting an operating system that was, well, tarted up a bit, if you know what I mean. I'm Darat and I created Windows 7."

Darat · 23rd November 2009, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Psi Baba

Heh, I'm picturing you in a Windows 7 commercial. "Lately I've been wanting an operating system that was, well, tarted up a bit, if you know what I mean. I'm Darat and I created Windows 7."

TheDaver · 25th November 2009, 01:33 AM

“Hi, I’m Apple, I’m a PC, and Windows 7 was my idea.”

erlando · 25th November 2009, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by technoextreme

Yeah. The only thing the commercials make me want to do is smash a Mac into thousands of little pieces with a sledgehammer.

Please stay out of my office then.. I kinda need my computer in working order.

technoextreme · 25th November 2009, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

Please stay out of my office then.. I kinda need my computer in working order.

Ehhhh.... I have nothing against Apple except for their commercials. I've washed an IPOD, dried it, and still had it in working condition after realizing the big clanking sound emenating from the dryer was my player that I thought I lost.

13th November 2009, 05:10 AM	#1
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,693	"Windows 7 'took ideas' from Apple" "Windows 7 'took ideas' from Apple" Quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8358712.stm "One of the things that people say an awful lot about the Apple Mac is that the OS is fantastic, that it's very graphical and easy to use," Mr Aldous told PCR. "What we've tried to do with Windows 7 - whether it's traditional format or in a touch format - is create a Mac look and feel in terms of graphics. (And please lets not get into any mac v pc, Apple v Microsoft fanboy crap.) I've been using Windows 7 as my main PC's OS since it was released and my secondary PC is a Mac running OS/X and I have to say I really can't see what MS is meant to have borrowed from the Mac with the release of Windows 7. And certainly to me the two OSs have a very distinct "look and feel in terms of graphics". The nearest I can think of anything that approaches a "borrow" from OS/X would be the changes to Windows' Taskbar and Apple's Dock, but they look and feel very different to me. Anyone spotted any obvious "borrows"?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

13th November 2009, 06:08 AM	#3
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,550	I haven't used a mac in 15 years, so I can't comment on specifics. However I have a nagging suspicion that saying "it's more mac-like than before" is a marketing gambit designed to lure people who hear nothing but how superior the Mac experience is.
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,550	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

13th November 2009, 07:43 AM	#5
brodski faceless bureaucrat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: the three Chiltern Hundreds of Stoke, Desborough and Burnham Posts: 11,789	According to the article on el reg (on phone so no link) this guy had no involvment with windows 7 development and MS have distanced themselveas from his claims, not sure what is going on here.
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13th November 2009, 08:43 AM	#6
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,693	I was just using that as a stepping stone to the topic - I've heard similar claims from other sources.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

13th November 2009, 10:20 AM	#7
jsiv King of Svalbard Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Bortenfor alle blåner Posts: 4,105	While the changes in Vista/7 are more evolutionary than a straight clone of OS X (obviously), I think you'd have to be pretty delusional not to believe that Microsoft didn't get the "inspiration" to pretty their OS up from Apple (their biggest competitor).
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13th November 2009, 05:16 AM	#2
shawmutt Squirrel Murderer Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Greencastle, PA Posts: 1,209	Well, I haven't used an OS X since Panther, and just started using Windows 7, but I would say the taskbar is the biggest "borrow" from Mac.

13th November 2009, 07:38 AM	#4
Ducky Titanium Superhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 10,769	Every time Windows or Mac or linux (gnome, kde etc.) does a release I see these claims. Best as I can tell it's nothing more than fanboyisms.

13th November 2009, 10:27 AM	#8
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,693	But I don't see where any such "inspiration" shows through in terms of taking any design cues etc. from OS/X. Sure MS tarted it up so it would look good against the competition but that is quite different from borrowing elements.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

13th November 2009, 12:28 PM	#9
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 6,412	Originally Posted by Ducky Every time Windows or Mac or linux (gnome, kde etc.) does a release I see these claims. Best as I can tell it's nothing more than fanboyisms. ++ OS comparisons are stuck in BASIC. 10 Release New OS 20 Competitors Claim Copying 30 GOTO 10 The new Taskbar doesn't even work like the Dock (thank goodness). As for looks, it looks like the Dock in the same way that Windows Quick Launch resembled the dock, except Quick Launch has been in Windows for more than a decade and Windows finally integrated it with the older Taskbar in a seamless manner. Both systems created their launchers similarly because that works best from a UI perspective, much like how the Widgets/Gadgets thing came from similar roots that originally belonged to neither Microsoft nor Apple.
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13th November 2009, 02:35 PM	#10
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,785	There are only so many ways to make a WIMP interface that make sense.
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14th November 2009, 05:03 AM	#11
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sitting in the ghostly glow of an LCD screen Posts: 27,434	Originally Posted by Darat The nearest I can think of anything that approaches a "borrow" from OS/X would be the changes to Windows' Taskbar and Apple's Dock, but they look and feel very different to me. Anyone spotted any obvious "borrows"? It's just reducing the argument to the difference in a few pieces of graphical sugar on the screen. The OS wars are over, they all do the same thing reasonably competently.
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14th November 2009, 03:06 PM	#12
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 712	Originally Posted by a_unique_person The OS wars are over, they all do the same thing reasonably competently. From the perspective of the average consumer, I would agree. For people who have very-specific technical requirements, not necessarily. Thus, I suppose it really comes down to how one defines "OS wars."
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15th November 2009, 06:49 AM	#13
shawmutt Squirrel Murderer Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Greencastle, PA Posts: 1,209	Originally Posted by daSkeptic From the perspective of the average consumer, I would agree. For people who have very-specific technical requirements, not necessarily. Thus, I suppose it really comes down to how one defines "OS wars." Like people who play video games

15th November 2009, 12:11 PM	#14
ThatSoundAgain Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: cph Posts: 780	Well, I haven't seen Win7, but if they did copy from Apple, that's a good thing. I mean, I'm all for UI designers copying concepts from each other, as long as they try to only copy the good ones. Everyone gets better UIs that way. Apple is not exactly innocent in that regard, all the way back to Xerox and the original Mac they've had a policy of copying the best bits of other software, and improving on the bits that are not as good. What I can only hope for is a shift at MS towards more usability-driven design. More testing with non-engineers, and more of a final word for the usability people (as opposed to the hard-core engineering types). Would make my life as the go-to-tech-support guy in my circle of friends that much easier.

15th November 2009, 04:08 PM	#15
daSkeptic Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA ... under the cheese counter at Haggen Posts: 712	Originally Posted by shawmutt Like people who play video games Yes, that is one such group actually.
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16th November 2009, 12:48 AM	#16
phantomb Thinker Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 227	Originally Posted by ThatSoundAgain Apple is not exactly innocent in that regard, all the way back to Xerox and the original Mac they've had a policy of copying the best bits of other software In the case of Apple and Xerox didn't millions of dollars in stock change hands?

16th November 2009, 01:13 AM	#17
Corsair 115 Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 4,338	Originally Posted by shawmutt Like people who play video games That's what consoles are for.
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18th November 2009, 11:42 AM	#18
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,785	Originally Posted by phantomb In the case of Apple and Xerox didn't millions of dollars in stock change hands? Yes. It was entirely above-board.
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18th November 2009, 11:54 AM	#19
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 4,001	It sounds to me like poisoning the well. It's the kind of thing I'd expect someone to say ahead of time, when they expect that the thing in question will probably do well. Gotta get out there right away and paint it badly to color the impressions people get. Can't let them run it and go "wow, this is the nicest version of Windows so far". That's not acceptable. We must first accuse them of copying us totally. And then we'll make a new snarky ad that implies that Windows claims "this one will fix all the problems, trust us this time!" to run like crazy. This is just poisoning the well from Apple people and fans who sense their own irrelevance is growing, and that Microsoft is starting to get some things right. We must do all we can to stop that in it's tracks!' And no, I'm not "pro PC" as much as I am "anti MAC". And not without good reason. They have spent a decade or more being arrogant, insulting jerks. So I don't like them, and am untrusting of things they say and claim.
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18th November 2009, 11:56 AM	#20
greymatters Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 751	Quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8358712.stm "One of the things that people say an awful lot about the Apple Mac is that the OS is fantastic, that it's very graphical and easy to use," Mr Aldous told PCR. "What we've tried to do with Windows 7 - whether it's traditional format or in a touch format - is create a Mac look and feel in terms of graphics. The oddest thing about this quote is that, at first, it seems to acknowledge the importance of an OS's qualities beyond the graphical ("ease of use"), and then goes on to say that the graphics, the surface was all that was copied. This quote seems to have an odd disconnect with itself.
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18th November 2009, 12:15 PM	#21
Ducky Titanium Superhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 10,769	Originally Posted by Whiplash And no, I'm not "pro PC" as much as I am "anti MAC". And not without good reason. They have spent a decade or more being arrogant, insulting jerks. So I don't like them, and am untrusting of things they say and claim. You do know there are people who use macs who aren't wearing black turtlenecks and drinking the mac-kool-aid to turn themselves into pretentious pricks, right?

18th November 2009, 12:44 PM	#22
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Calhan, CO, USA Posts: 1,233	Originally Posted by Ducky You do know there are people who use macs who aren't wearing black turtlenecks and drinking the mac-kool-aid to turn themselves into pretentious pricks, right? There are definitely less of them these days since Apple has gone more modern and mainstream. Nonetheless, I'd have to agree with Whiplash to a degree about the arrogance of many of them in the past. As a programmer just delving into Macs a few years back (through an application SDK but where I needed to access some of the OS functionality) asking seemingly simple questions nicely, I was berated, ridiculed, asked why I hadn't read the 550 2000 page documents (or was that 2000 550 page documents) at developer.apple.com, and so on. It is one thing to nicely point to places to look. It is another to be insulting and condescending right from the start. The situation did improve as calmer heads actually started 'helping'. The attitude has abated to a point. Part of that is that they now have to deal with tens of thousands of new programmers entering the fray of iPhone app development. On the other hand, Apple itself has been less than reasonable in dealing with developer support, getting applications through their evaluation process and onto the App Store, and making scheduled payments. Circumstances are changing but will take time for resolution. One has to remember that these things are just electronic machines and software - tools. I don't like Linux OSs myself (since I like things to be simple and quick not geeky and mysterious) but that doesn't make me rail against Linux. I use both Windows and MacOS on a regular basis. Each has its good and bad points. This is why I avoid the 'Mac vs PC' (actually Mac vs Windows) flame wars. These aren't about the tools, they are about unreasonable people.

18th November 2009, 01:27 PM	#23
Ducky Titanium Superhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 10,769	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 These aren't about the tools, they are about unreasonable people. This statement is one I could not agree with more. I use all sorts of various hardware and software configurations. I use macs, I use linux, I use Solaris/OpenSolaris, I use windows (allbeit rarely). Tools do not beget themselves to "I am better than you." The wrench does not say to the hammer it is more functional. That only happens when the owners of said tools decide to act like douchebags.

18th November 2009, 03:47 PM	#24
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 6,412	Originally Posted by Ducky You do know there are people who use macs who aren't wearing black turtlenecks and drinking the mac-kool-aid to turn themselves into pretentious pricks, right? You mean I bought those shirts and the gallons of kool-aid for nothing? Crap. For laffs: I can verify yet again that Win 7 actually runs faster on a MacBook Pro than OS X does.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

19th November 2009, 06:27 PM	#25
negativ Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: the land of make-believe Posts: 1,785	Originally Posted by GreNME You mean I bought those shirts and the gallons of kool-aid for nothing? Crap. For laffs: I can verify yet again that Win 7 actually runs faster on a MacBook Pro than OS X does. Oh yeah? Well, Puppy Linux runs faster on my fully-calibrated electric egg beater than OS X OR Win7 runs on a MacBook Pro, so there!
	__________________ A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals. Eternal salvation or TRIPLE your money back!

19th November 2009, 06:40 PM	#26
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 4,001	Originally Posted by Ducky You do know there are people who use macs who aren't wearing black turtlenecks and drinking the mac-kool-aid to turn themselves into pretentious pricks, right? Yes, sorry, I was ranting. My passion often overrides my more reasoned thinking process. Sorry. It's just that those commercials really got to me. The newest ones aren't terrible or anything. I mean way back, where the person who just switched would tell the tale of woe about how their PC was infested with demons from hell and practically exploded any time they tried to open a simple document. I'm not sure if you remember these commercials, they predate the latest "switch" ones I think. It may have been the start of the same campaign. But it was where real users told horror stories that were clearly hyperbolic.
	__________________ "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" - The Prisoner "Look, I'm a tenth generation A.I. hologramic computer.. I'm not your Mum" - Red Dwarf "Ken Buddah... a smile, two bangs, and a religion" - Monty Python "A little hard work never killed anyone... but I'm not taking any chances" - Upright Citizens Brigade Last edited by Whiplash; 19th November 2009 at 06:42 PM.

19th November 2009, 08:23 PM	#27
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 6,412	Originally Posted by negativ Oh yeah? Well, Puppy Linux runs faster on my fully-calibrated electric egg beater than OS X OR Win7 runs on a MacBook Pro, so there! I suggest using DamnSmall instead, since it's more useful and versatile. (DSL brought an old 333 Mhz laptop back to life here at home... quite awesome indeed )
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

19th November 2009, 09:33 PM	#28
Ducky Titanium Superhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 10,769	Originally Posted by GreNME I suggest using DamnSmall instead, since it's more useful and versatile. (DSL brought an old 333 Mhz laptop back to life here at home... quite awesome indeed ) I prefer DamnSmall's packaging system to Puppy's. Purely personal preference, they both are functional. ETA: TO clarify, I prefer using APT to the packaging puppy uses, you have to run a script for DSL to actually use APT, though. Once installed you can use the debian repos.
	Last edited by Ducky; 19th November 2009 at 09:35 PM.

21st November 2009, 12:11 PM	#29
technoextreme Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,886	Originally Posted by Ducky You do know there are people who use macs who aren't wearing black turtlenecks and drinking the mac-kool-aid to turn themselves into pretentious pricks, right? Well why does Apple advertise it that way?
	__________________ It's amazing how many of these "paranormal" icons seem to merge together. There always seem to be theories about how they link together in some way. I'm sure someone has a very good explanation as to how Bigfoot killed JFK to help cover Roswell.-Mark Mekes This isn't rocket surgery.-Bill Nye

21st November 2009, 01:39 PM	#30
elgarak Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 634	Originally Posted by technoextreme Well why does Apple advertise it that way? They don't. (You do realize that in the "I'm a Mac I'm a PC" ads Justin Long and John Hodgman play a Mac and a PC, don't you? The computers. Not the users.)
elgarak Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 634

21st November 2009, 07:21 PM	#31
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 6,412	Originally Posted by elgarak They don't. (You do realize that in the "I'm a Mac I'm a PC" ads Justin Long and John Hodgman play a Mac and a PC, don't you? The computers. Not the users.) Are you serious? Do you really not see the characterizations they make, and have been making about their computers since, well, 1984?
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

21st November 2009, 07:51 PM	#32
John Mayer New Blood Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 10	Well, this "fanboyism" came from a MicroSoft executive. Of course, the BIG borrow was in deriving the entire Windows interface from the Mac long ago. One of Apple's biggest marketing mistakes (and they have made many, while Microsoft excels on that score) was settling that infringement suit way too cheaply.
John Mayer New Blood Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 10

23rd November 2009, 08:04 AM	#33
Rat Not bored. Never bored. Join Date: May 2003 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 3,588	Originally Posted by John Mayer Well, this "fanboyism" came from a MicroSoft executive. Of course, the BIG borrow was in deriving the entire Windows interface from the Mac long ago. One of Apple's biggest marketing mistakes (and they have made many, while Microsoft excels on that score) was settling that infringement suit way too cheaply. Jesus Christ, do we really have to go through this again? Yes, the entire Windows interface, also known as the trashcan icon, was of course derived entirely and solely from the Mac.
	__________________ "Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski UKLS 1988-? orking till the cows come home... Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides.

23rd November 2009, 08:08 AM	#34
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Calhan, CO, USA Posts: 1,233	Both of them lifted the ideas of a user interface (GUI), mouse input, among other things from Xerox PARC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_C...ft_Corporation That dog won't hunt...

23rd November 2009, 08:18 AM	#35
technoextreme Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,886	Originally Posted by elgarak They don't. (You do realize that in the "I'm a Mac I'm a PC" ads Justin Long and John Hodgman play a Mac and a PC, don't you? The computers. Not the users.) Yeah. The only thing the commercials make me want to do is smash a Mac into thousands of little pieces with a sledgehammer.
	__________________ It's amazing how many of these "paranormal" icons seem to merge together. There always seem to be theories about how they link together in some way. I'm sure someone has a very good explanation as to how Bigfoot killed JFK to help cover Roswell.-Mark Mekes This isn't rocket surgery.-Bill Nye