AIG: if the Nazis ask you where Jews are hiding, you must tell them

Radically Rethinking · 13th November 2009, 04:18 PM

I'm sure some people here have seen this already, since I know I'm not the only one here who reads Pharyngula.

Someone from Answers in Genesis tells us that we must never ever tell a lie, and that includes a situation like, if you knew where a Jewish family was hiding and the Nazis demand you tell them where.

Originally Posted by Bodie Hodge

Consider this carefully. In the situation of a Nazi beating on the door, we have assumed a lie would save a life, but really we don't know. So, one would be opting to lie and disobey God without the certainty of saving a life--keeping in mind that all are ultimately condemned to die physically. Besides, whether one lied or not may not have stopped the Nazi solders from searching the house anyway.

Whole article is here and I found it here.

parky76 · 13th November 2009, 04:22 PM

lying to save a life is bad?

hmmm..

shandyjan · 13th November 2009, 04:35 PM

I'm with PZ when he says

snip> The 'crime' of telling a lie pales into insignificance against the crime of enabling the death of fellow human beings.

To not lie is to enable murder.
It is easy to say when you dont believe in christianity. I think this question is more for the religious to answer.
No one in this situation would be lieing to a god, but protecting a fellow man against brutality. I dont think it even counts as a lie but preservation.

A.A.Alfie · 13th November 2009, 04:51 PM

The actual commandment is
“You shall not bear false witness.."

One comment in the thread I read that was provided touched on this too.

The commandment does not imply that all lying is a sin at all. It says one should not tell lies about other people - eg, don't go blabbing that your neighbour is having an affair with the preachers wife when you know it isn't true. That is "false witness".
Telling the "Nazi's at your door" that you "don't know where the Jews are", is not.

Roadtoad · 13th November 2009, 04:55 PM

Wow. More moral absolutist drivel. I'm reminded of the pastor who declared that, yes, he'd lie, but he'd feel real guilty about it afterward.

Forgive me. I need to watch some porn to clear the stink of this from my brain. Yeah, kids, it's that bad.

parky76 · 13th November 2009, 04:59 PM

The Bible says that almost all religious obligations can be broken, in order to save a life.

A.A.Alfie · 13th November 2009, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Wow. More moral absolutist drivel. I'm reminded of the pastor who declared that, yes, he'd lie, but he'd feel real guilty about it afterward.

Forgive me. I need to watch some porn to clear the stink of this from my brain. Yeah, kids, it's that bad.

Your argument is compelling and in the light of the facts you have provided I seriously have had to reconsider my viewpoint.

~enigma~ · 13th November 2009, 05:09 PM

Wasn't jeebus a jew? Guess AIG just admitted jebbus is not necessary for christianity (retardation).

Roadtoad · 13th November 2009, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

Your argument is compelling and in the light of the facts you have provided I seriously have had to reconsider my viewpoint.

Smartass.

PZ Myers and others have made it clear: There's something wrong when a lie to save a life is somehow worse than telling the truth and allowing evil people to perpetuate their actions. It's utterly repugnant that saving a life is somehow less important than keeping your imaginary sky-daddy happy because you told the truth.

Oh, yes, innocent people died because of your actions, but, hey, they were only Jews, and we know what kind of people they are. Right?

Piscivore · 13th November 2009, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Oh, yes, innocent people died because of your actions, but, hey, they were only Jews, and we know what kind of people they are. Right?

Indeed. One wonders what Our Mister Hodge's opinion would be if it were a Christian hiding from the Romans.

tsig · 13th November 2009, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Smartass.

PZ Myers and others have made it clear: There's something wrong when a lie to save a life is somehow worse than telling the truth and allowing evil people to perpetuate their actions. It's utterly repugnant that saving a life is somehow less important than keeping your imaginary sky-daddy happy because you told the truth.

Oh, yes, innocent people died because of your actions, but, hey, they were only Jews, and we know what kind of people they are. Right?

I see you have not been taught by Jesuits.

The proper answer is that you reserve part of your statement.

There are no Jews here "to you"

You say the first out loud then reserve the words in quotes.

That at least was the answer in my seminary class.

A.A.Alfie · 13th November 2009, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Smartass.

PZ Myers and others have made it clear: There's something wrong when a lie to save a life is somehow worse than telling the truth and allowing evil people to perpetuate their actions. It's utterly repugnant that saving a life is somehow less important than keeping your imaginary sky-daddy happy because you told the truth.

Oh, yes, innocent people died because of your actions, but, hey, they were only Jews, and we know what kind of people they are. Right?

Once again your argument is compelling.
Did you actually read what I wrote? Clealy not.

I am saying that lying to protect the people in the scenario given is perfectly OK. It is not breaching any commandment as they are not and would not be bearing false witness.

Me, a "Smartass"? Guilty - but only because I suffer fools poorly.

Roadtoad · 13th November 2009, 05:23 PM

You missed the smiley.

A.A.Alfie · 13th November 2009, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

You missed the smiley.

Sorry RT. I thought you were responding to my first post. If I've had crossed wires; my sincere apologies.

justcharlie09 · 13th November 2009, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

The Bible says that almost all religious obligations can be broken, in order to save a life.

What A.A.Alfie and parky76 said

I'll say this, I consider myself Christian (trust me, plenty of Christians I've met are bothered with this...so...I have no idea what I really must be then) and I'll say this: if it's a sin, I'd just make a mental note to apologize to God when I got there and/or consider it, at the very least, a really good reason for getting oneself tossed into hell.

Like the UU minister I ran into a while back said: "If there was such a god running the show and casting such judgements, it would be our moral duty to oppose him..." Pretty much my sentiment in a nutshell.

roger · 13th November 2009, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

Indeed. One wonders what Our Mister Hodge's opinion would be if it were a Christian hiding from the Romans.

He says in his article that he hopes that he would do the same thing, but isn't sure he would be strong enough to do so.

justcharlie09 · 13th November 2009, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by roger

He says in his article that he hopes that he would do the same thing, but isn't sure he would be strong enough to do so.

Sorry, but is it fair to say "WTF"?

You know, clearly this man isn't married (or at least not happily). Can you imagine what the answer to the question "Does this make my butt look big to you?" might actually be?

ETA some guess: "Yes, dear. It is massive. You look like you're smuggling two elephants back there. Have you considered reducing your intake of donuts after the 'informal' service on Sunday?"

fuelair · 13th November 2009, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

lying to save a life is bad?

hmmm..

Sounds like a lot of xtian fundies - not to Godwin or anything. Can't say anything about Bodie to abide by certain of the rules of the forum here

!!

fuelair · 13th November 2009, 06:20 PM

Though my preference is for shooting/knifing or grenading the nazi's. That way I don't have to sin by lying.

bluesjnr · 13th November 2009, 06:38 PM

I don't think this is going to be much of a problem these days. If a Nazi turned up at my door demanding to know the whereabouts of "the Jews" I'd have to say.

"This is Scotland mate and it's 2009 - I think you're lost. Oh and I'd keep a low profile whilst travelling if I were you."

justcharlie09 · 13th November 2009, 06:40 PM

People can say all they want about Godwin's Law, but those Nazis are going to be floating around the popular consciousness for quite a while... they're flare for the theatrical and costuming alone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU

Foster Zygote · 13th November 2009, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Bodie Hodge

Consider this carefully. In the situation of a Nazi beating on the door, we have assumed a lie would save a life, but really we don't know. So, one would be opting to lie and disobey God without the certainty of saving a life--keeping in mind that all are ultimately condemned to die physically. Besides, whether one lied or not may not have stopped the Nazi solders from searching the house anyway.

Not only is this one of the most morally reprehensible things I've ever read, but it ignores the fact that the Bible does speak of people being rewarded for lying to protect others. In the second chapter of Joshua the prostitute Rahab openly lies about the whereabouts of the two Hebrew spies she is hiding. Her reward is that she and her household are spared when Joshua's army comes and murders every other man, woman and child in the city.

a_unique_person · 13th November 2009, 07:40 PM

As a former xian and now atheist, can I just say they got this part completely wrong.

Quote:

If we love God, we should obey Him (John 14:15). To love God first means to obey Him first--before looking at our neighbor.

If you love god first, you would also love his creation, and lie to save it. There would be plenty of xians who would not follow the insane scripture storm that follows.

six7s · 13th November 2009, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

The Bible says that almost all religious obligations can be broken, in order to save a life.

So?

As we all know, teh bible is like a person; torture it enough and you can get it to say anything

AiG whackos are (in)famous for cherry picking - and it ain't hard to find a passage that they can take out of context to support their despicable, sordid fantasies

For example:

Romans 13: 1 - 5

Submission to the Authorities
¹Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

²Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

³For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.

⁴For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

⁵Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

Eyeron · 13th November 2009, 08:31 PM

Render unto Ceasar's that which is Ceasar's.

If we apply that line of reasoning here. then that means we must give up the Jew to the Nazi since the Jews belong to the Nazis even if they are the promised people.

a_unique_person · 13th November 2009, 08:35 PM

Nazis: Tell us the plans for the invasion!
Xian: I cannot tell a lie, this is exactly what they are.

themusicteacher · 13th November 2009, 09:14 PM

Which philosopher was it that tried to stake out some sort of reasoning for this exact same thing? Kant? Heidegger? I can't recall exactly but it was his (nonreligious) position that it is never okay to lie.

NorfolkAtheist · 13th November 2009, 11:10 PM

Disgusting.

However, this is a good illustration of the pitfalls of false dichotomies. Bodie Hodge's poor mind can apparently only conceive of lying to the Nazi's or aiding in their murdering of an entire Jewish family, but are those really his only options? Of course not. He could simply refuse to answer the Nazis. Unfortunately Mr. Hodge appears to be only able to conceive of two responses to any dilemma.

Hux · 14th November 2009, 07:07 AM

Let's just talk about the real world shall we? A guy sticks an MP40 up your nostril and tells you if you don't come clean, about another family, your entire family will be headshot.

I guess it would be time to discuss the moral implications.

jadey · 14th November 2009, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Let's just talk about the real world shall we? A guy sticks an MP40 up your nostril and tells you if you don't come clean, about another family, your entire family will be headshot.

I guess it would be time to discuss the moral implications.

Presuming both families are innocent, that makes for a much more interesting discussion.

I guess you have to decide to either 1) live with remorse (for sacrificing the other family) or 2) die with remorse (for sacrificing your own). Not very good options in my opinion.

bruto · 14th November 2009, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by themusicteacher

Which philosopher was it that tried to stake out some sort of reasoning for this exact same thing? Kant? Heidegger? I can't recall exactly but it was his (nonreligious) position that it is never okay to lie.

That priggish old wanker Kant.

blobru · 14th November 2009, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by themusicteacher

Which philosopher was it that tried to stake out some sort of reasoning for this exact same thing? Kant? Heidegger? I can't recall exactly but it was his (nonreligious) position that it is never okay to lie.

Kant under his Categorical_imperative#Deception^WP.

Originally Posted by Radically Rethinking

I'm sure some people here have seen this already, since I know I'm not the only one here who reads Pharyngula.

Someone from Answers in Genesis tells us that we must never ever tell a lie, and that includes a situation like, if you knew where a Jewish family was hiding and the Nazis demand you tell them where. ---

Whole article is here and I found it here.

Originally Posted by Bodie Hodge

I often wonder if a Nazi soldier asked if someone was there hiding and they told the truth before God, could the Lord have in mind a greater purpose? Could God have used that person to free a great many people who ultimately died in the Holocaust? Or have done something to stop the war earlier? Or cause a great number of Jews and Nazi’s to come to know Christ?

So for Bodie, a greater purpose than protecting the lives of Jews hiding from Nazis is that turning them in might somehow cause many Jews and Nazis to convert to Christ?!

{Note to self: if I ever go Jewish and there's a pogrom -- avoid Hodges' family attic!!}

Fiona · 14th November 2009, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Let's just talk about the real world shall we? A guy sticks an MP40 up your nostril and tells you if you don't come clean, about another family, your entire family will be headshot.

I guess it would be time to discuss the moral implications.

"Love thy neighbour as thyself" come in here at all?

Tricky · 14th November 2009, 08:51 AM

Some bickering posts moved to AAH. Talk about the topic, not each other.

Posted By:Tricky

six7s · 14th November 2009, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Let's just talk about the real world shall we? A guy sticks an MP40 up your nostril and tells you if you don't come clean, about another family, your entire family will be headshot.

I guess it would be time to discuss the moral implications.

How does this scenario differ from the OP?

en.wikipedia.org Miep Gies

Quote:

With her husband, and her colleagues, Victor Kugler, Johannes Kleiman, and Bep Voskuijl, Miep Gies helped hide Edith and Otto Frank, their daughters Margot and Anne Frank, Hermann and Auguste van Pels, their son Peter, and Fritz Pfeffer in the sealed-off back rooms of the company's office building on Amsterdam's Prinsengracht from July 1942 until 4 August 1944.

In theory, Miep and the other helpers could have been shot if they had been caught hiding Jews. In practice, however, those caught hiding Jews were more commonly sentenced to four to six months of hard labor.

blobru · 14th November 2009, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Fiona

"Love thy neighbour as thyself" come in here at all?

It does; however, Bodie is quick to point out that "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength" precedes it in Scripture; thus:

Originally Posted by Gruppenführer Hodge

Jesus tells us that all the commandments can be summed up into these two statements. But of these two, the first is to love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. So, this would trump the second. Our actions toward God should trump our actions toward men.

And one should turn the Jew over to the Nazi, ihhcco.

Ron_Tomkins · 14th November 2009, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Radically Rethinking

AIG: if the Nazis ask you where Jews are hiding, you must tell them

Yeah...

Robin · 14th November 2009, 09:25 AM

I should have thought the answer obvious - you don't need to lie, but instead you should follow the example of the one man righteous enough to be saved from destruction in Sodom and Gomorrah...

You should offer them your daughters as a bribe to go away.

six7s · 14th November 2009, 09:42 AM

Although the following quote is somewhat clichéd, it is - I think - apt

First they came for the Communists but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists but I was not one of them, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews but I was not Jewish so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.
Martin Niemoeller

pgwenthold · 14th November 2009, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Not only is this one of the most morally reprehensible things I've ever read,

I agree with FZ that it is morally disgusting. Basically, the argument is that if you don't know 100% for sure that the person will be killed, then you won't be an accessory.

I can't fathom the thought.

If it's a question of lie or just a 10% chance of murder, that isn't even close.

Then again, I am just an immoral atheist.

13th November 2009, 04:18 PM	#1
Radically Rethinking Scholar Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Bellevue, Nebraska, USA Posts: 71	AIG: if the Nazis ask you where Jews are hiding, you must tell them I'm sure some people here have seen this already, since I know I'm not the only one here who reads Pharyngula. Someone from Answers in Genesis tells us that we must never ever tell a lie, and that includes a situation like, if you knew where a Jewish family was hiding and the Nazis demand you tell them where. Originally Posted by Bodie Hodge Consider this carefully. In the situation of a Nazi beating on the door, we have assumed a lie would save a life, but really we don't know. So, one would be opting to lie and disobey God without the certainty of saving a life--keeping in mind that all are ultimately condemned to die physically. Besides, whether one lied or not may not have stopped the Nazi solders from searching the house anyway. Whole article is here and I found it here.

13th November 2009, 04:22 PM	#2
parky76 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 15,490	lying to save a life is bad? hmmm..
	__________________ 9-11 Truther: "We don't need facts. We only need doubt."

13th November 2009, 04:35 PM	#3
shandyjan Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 1,013	I'm with PZ when he says snip> The 'crime' of telling a lie pales into insignificance against the crime of enabling the death of fellow human beings. To not lie is to enable murder. It is easy to say when you dont believe in christianity. I think this question is more for the religious to answer. No one in this situation would be lieing to a god, but protecting a fellow man against brutality. I dont think it even counts as a lie but preservation.
	__________________ Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth. ~Ludwig Börne Last edited by shandyjan; 13th November 2009 at 04:39 PM. Reason: add a bit and take away typoes

13th November 2009, 04:51 PM	#4
A.A.Alfie Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,113	The actual commandment is “You shall not bear false witness.." One comment in the thread I read that was provided touched on this too. The commandment does not imply that all lying is a sin at all. It says one should not tell lies about other people - eg, don't go blabbing that your neighbour is having an affair with the preachers wife when you know it isn't true. That is "false witness". Telling the "Nazi's at your door" that you "don't know where the Jews are", is not.
	__________________ “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong". Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

13th November 2009, 04:55 PM	#5
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Looking for a decent Taco... Posts: 11,882	Wow. More moral absolutist drivel. I'm reminded of the pastor who declared that, yes, he'd lie, but he'd feel real guilty about it afterward. Forgive me. I need to watch some porn to clear the stink of this from my brain. Yeah, kids, it's that bad.
	__________________ "I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." Harriet Tubman "I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." Frederick Douglass "Power corrupts. Absolute power... is pretty cool, actually." BPSCG My blog.

13th November 2009, 04:59 PM	#6
parky76 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 15,490	The Bible says that almost all religious obligations can be broken, in order to save a life.
	__________________ 9-11 Truther: "We don't need facts. We only need doubt."

13th November 2009, 05:03 PM	#7
A.A.Alfie Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,113	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Wow. More moral absolutist drivel. I'm reminded of the pastor who declared that, yes, he'd lie, but he'd feel real guilty about it afterward. Forgive me. I need to watch some porn to clear the stink of this from my brain. Yeah, kids, it's that bad. Your argument is compelling and in the light of the facts you have provided I seriously have had to reconsider my viewpoint.
	__________________ “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong". Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

13th November 2009, 05:09 PM	#8
~enigma~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Center of the universe Posts: 7,955	Wasn't jeebus a jew? Guess AIG just admitted jebbus is not necessary for christianity (retardation).

13th November 2009, 05:11 PM	#9
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Looking for a decent Taco... Posts: 11,882	Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie Your argument is compelling and in the light of the facts you have provided I seriously have had to reconsider my viewpoint. Smartass. PZ Myers and others have made it clear: There's something wrong when a lie to save a life is somehow worse than telling the truth and allowing evil people to perpetuate their actions. It's utterly repugnant that saving a life is somehow less important than keeping your imaginary sky-daddy happy because you told the truth. Oh, yes, innocent people died because of your actions, but, hey, they were only Jews, and we know what kind of people they are. Right?
	__________________ "I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." Harriet Tubman "I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." Frederick Douglass "Power corrupts. Absolute power... is pretty cool, actually." BPSCG My blog.

13th November 2009, 05:16 PM	#10
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Yubaba's Bathhouse Posts: 19,125	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Oh, yes, innocent people died because of your actions, but, hey, they were only Jews, and we know what kind of people they are. Right? Indeed. One wonders what Our Mister Hodge's opinion would be if it were a Christian hiding from the Romans.
	__________________ A brave man once requested me to answer questions that are key- "is it to be or not to be?"- and I replied "oh why ask me?" Does it get tiring to be correct about everything? - Francesca R ...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp. - CFLarsen

13th November 2009, 05:19 PM	#11
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 6,869	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Smartass. PZ Myers and others have made it clear: There's something wrong when a lie to save a life is somehow worse than telling the truth and allowing evil people to perpetuate their actions. It's utterly repugnant that saving a life is somehow less important than keeping your imaginary sky-daddy happy because you told the truth. Oh, yes, innocent people died because of your actions, but, hey, they were only Jews, and we know what kind of people they are. Right? I see you have not been taught by Jesuits. The proper answer is that you reserve part of your statement. There are no Jews here "to you" You say the first out loud then reserve the words in quotes. That at least was the answer in my seminary class.

13th November 2009, 05:22 PM	#12
A.A.Alfie Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,113	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Smartass. PZ Myers and others have made it clear: There's something wrong when a lie to save a life is somehow worse than telling the truth and allowing evil people to perpetuate their actions. It's utterly repugnant that saving a life is somehow less important than keeping your imaginary sky-daddy happy because you told the truth. Oh, yes, innocent people died because of your actions, but, hey, they were only Jews, and we know what kind of people they are. Right? Once again your argument is compelling. Did you actually read what I wrote? Clealy not. I am saying that lying to protect the people in the scenario given is perfectly OK. It is not breaching any commandment as they are not and would not be bearing false witness. Me, a "Smartass"? Guilty - but only because I suffer fools poorly.
	__________________ “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong". Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

13th November 2009, 05:23 PM	#13
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Looking for a decent Taco... Posts: 11,882	You missed the smiley.
	__________________ "I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." Harriet Tubman "I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." Frederick Douglass "Power corrupts. Absolute power... is pretty cool, actually." BPSCG My blog.

13th November 2009, 05:25 PM	#14
A.A.Alfie Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 2,113	Originally Posted by Roadtoad You missed the smiley. Sorry RT. I thought you were responding to my first post. If I've had crossed wires; my sincere apologies.
	__________________ “The wolfhound is right and the cannibal is wrong". Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

13th November 2009, 05:56 PM	#15
justcharlie09 Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 405	Originally Posted by parky76 The Bible says that almost all religious obligations can be broken, in order to save a life. What A.A.Alfie and parky76 said I'll say this, I consider myself Christian (trust me, plenty of Christians I've met are bothered with this...so...I have no idea what I really must be then) and I'll say this: if it's a sin, I'd just make a mental note to apologize to God when I got there and/or consider it, at the very least, a really good reason for getting oneself tossed into hell. Like the UU minister I ran into a while back said: "If there was such a god running the show and casting such judgements, it would be our moral duty to oppose him..." Pretty much my sentiment in a nutshell.

13th November 2009, 06:00 PM	#16
roger Philosopher Join Date: May 2002 Location: Golden CO, USA Posts: 7,871	Originally Posted by Piscivore Indeed. One wonders what Our Mister Hodge's opinion would be if it were a Christian hiding from the Romans. He says in his article that he hopes that he would do the same thing, but isn't sure he would be strong enough to do so.
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir

13th November 2009, 06:05 PM	#17
justcharlie09 Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 405	Originally Posted by roger He says in his article that he hopes that he would do the same thing, but isn't sure he would be strong enough to do so. Sorry, but is it fair to say "WTF"? You know, clearly this man isn't married (or at least not happily). Can you imagine what the answer to the question "Does this make my butt look big to you?" might actually be? ETA some guess: "Yes, dear. It is massive. You look like you're smuggling two elephants back there. Have you considered reducing your intake of donuts after the 'informal' service on Sunday?"
	Last edited by justcharlie09; 13th November 2009 at 06:07 PM.

13th November 2009, 06:18 PM	#18
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 16,733	Originally Posted by parky76 lying to save a life is bad? hmmm.. Sounds like a lot of xtian fundies - not to Godwin or anything. Can't say anything about Bodie to abide by certain of the rules of the forum here!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 16,733	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space!

13th November 2009, 06:20 PM	#19
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 16,733	Though my preference is for shooting/knifing or grenading the nazi's. That way I don't have to sin by lying.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 16,733	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space!

13th November 2009, 06:38 PM	#20
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Not where I should be. Posts: 501	I don't think this is going to be much of a problem these days. If a Nazi turned up at my door demanding to know the whereabouts of "the Jews" I'd have to say. "This is Scotland mate and it's 2009 - I think you're lost. Oh and I'd keep a low profile whilst travelling if I were you."
	__________________ Belief is the death of intelligence. - Robert Anton Wilson Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Isaac Asimov He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams

13th November 2009, 06:40 PM	#21
justcharlie09 Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 405	People can say all they want about Godwin's Law, but those Nazis are going to be floating around the popular consciousness for quite a while... they're flare for the theatrical and costuming alone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU

13th November 2009, 07:21 PM	#22
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Utility Muffin Research Kitchen Posts: 7,838	Originally Posted by Bodie Hodge Consider this carefully. In the situation of a Nazi beating on the door, we have assumed a lie would save a life, but really we don't know. So, one would be opting to lie and disobey God without the certainty of saving a life--keeping in mind that all are ultimately condemned to die physically. Besides, whether one lied or not may not have stopped the Nazi solders from searching the house anyway. Not only is this one of the most morally reprehensible things I've ever read, but it ignores the fact that the Bible does speak of people being rewarded for lying to protect others. In the second chapter of Joshua the prostitute Rahab openly lies about the whereabouts of the two Hebrew spies she is hiding. Her reward is that she and her household are spared when Joshua's army comes and murders every other man, woman and child in the city.
	__________________ A cheetah coat fills up with steam She's such a scream

13th November 2009, 07:40 PM	#23
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sitting in the ghostly glow of an LCD screen Posts: 27,434	As a former xian and now atheist, can I just say they got this part completely wrong. Quote: If we love God, we should obey Him (John 14:15). To love God first means to obey Him first--before looking at our neighbor. If you love god first, you would also love his creation, and lie to save it. There would be plenty of xians who would not follow the insane scripture storm that follows.
	__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." SH Roberts " Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it." Monbiot "I am not the fine man you take me for"

13th November 2009, 07:43 PM	#24
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	Originally Posted by parky76 The Bible says that almost all religious obligations can be broken, in order to save a life. So? As we all know, teh bible is like a person; torture it enough and you can get it to say anything AiG whackos are (in)famous for cherry picking - and it ain't hard to find a passage that they can take out of context to support their despicable, sordid fantasies For example: Romans 13: 1 - 5 Submission to the Authorities ¹Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. ²Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. ³For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. ⁴For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. ⁵Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
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13th November 2009, 08:31 PM	#25
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774	Render unto Ceasar's that which is Ceasar's. If we apply that line of reasoning here. then that means we must give up the Jew to the Nazi since the Jews belong to the Nazis even if they are the promised people.
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774

13th November 2009, 08:35 PM	#26
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sitting in the ghostly glow of an LCD screen Posts: 27,434	Nazis: Tell us the plans for the invasion! Xian: I cannot tell a lie, this is exactly what they are.
	__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." SH Roberts " Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it." Monbiot "I am not the fine man you take me for"

13th November 2009, 09:14 PM	#27
themusicteacher Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Burque, NM Posts: 462	Which philosopher was it that tried to stake out some sort of reasoning for this exact same thing? Kant? Heidegger? I can't recall exactly but it was his (nonreligious) position that it is never okay to lie.

13th November 2009, 11:10 PM	#28
NorfolkAtheist Thinker Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 150	Disgusting. However, this is a good illustration of the pitfalls of false dichotomies. Bodie Hodge's poor mind can apparently only conceive of lying to the Nazi's or aiding in their murdering of an entire Jewish family, but are those really his only options? Of course not. He could simply refuse to answer the Nazis. Unfortunately Mr. Hodge appears to be only able to conceive of two responses to any dilemma.

14th November 2009, 07:07 AM	#29
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Let's just talk about the real world shall we? A guy sticks an MP40 up your nostril and tells you if you don't come clean, about another family, your entire family will be headshot. I guess it would be time to discuss the moral implications.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064

14th November 2009, 07:59 AM	#30
jadey Muse Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Merry Land Posts: 590	Originally Posted by Hux Let's just talk about the real world shall we? A guy sticks an MP40 up your nostril and tells you if you don't come clean, about another family, your entire family will be headshot. I guess it would be time to discuss the moral implications. Presuming both families are innocent, that makes for a much more interesting discussion. I guess you have to decide to either 1) live with remorse (for sacrificing the other family) or 2) die with remorse (for sacrificing your own). Not very good options in my opinion.

14th November 2009, 08:24 AM	#31
bruto Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 6,657	Originally Posted by themusicteacher Which philosopher was it that tried to stake out some sort of reasoning for this exact same thing? Kant? Heidegger? I can't recall exactly but it was his (nonreligious) position that it is never okay to lie. That priggish old wanker Kant.
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson)

14th November 2009, 08:38 AM	#32
blobru Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,275	Originally Posted by themusicteacher Which philosopher was it that tried to stake out some sort of reasoning for this exact same thing? Kant? Heidegger? I can't recall exactly but it was his (nonreligious) position that it is never okay to lie. Kant under his Categorical_imperative#Deception^WP. Originally Posted by Radically Rethinking I'm sure some people here have seen this already, since I know I'm not the only one here who reads Pharyngula. Someone from Answers in Genesis tells us that we must never ever tell a lie, and that includes a situation like, if you knew where a Jewish family was hiding and the Nazis demand you tell them where. --- Whole article is here and I found it here. Originally Posted by Bodie Hodge I often wonder if a Nazi soldier asked if someone was there hiding and they told the truth before God, could the Lord have in mind a greater purpose? Could God have used that person to free a great many people who ultimately died in the Holocaust? Or have done something to stop the war earlier? Or cause a great number of Jews and Nazi’s to come to know Christ? So for Bodie, a greater purpose than protecting the lives of Jews hiding from Nazis is that turning them in might somehow cause many Jews and Nazis to convert to Christ?! {Note to self: if I ever go Jewish and there's a pogrom -- avoid Hodges' family attic!!}
blobru Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,275	__________________ "Say to them, 'I am Nobody!'" -- Ulysses to the Cyclops "Never mind. I can't read." -- Hokulele to the Easter Bunny Last edited by blobru; 14th November 2009 at 08:56 AM.

14th November 2009, 08:46 AM	#33
Fiona Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 6,103	Originally Posted by Hux Let's just talk about the real world shall we? A guy sticks an MP40 up your nostril and tells you if you don't come clean, about another family, your entire family will be headshot. I guess it would be time to discuss the moral implications. "Love thy neighbour as thyself" come in here at all?
Fiona Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 6,103	__________________ To see you, who you wanted to be, amongst the bastards out there. Damn you, Fiona - MattC. Damn you, Fi - SkeptikKhatt Damn you, anoiF - CriticalSock You are become Fiona, destroyer of threads! -realpaladin

14th November 2009, 08:56 AM	#35
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	Originally Posted by Hux Let's just talk about the real world shall we? A guy sticks an MP40 up your nostril and tells you if you don't come clean, about another family, your entire family will be headshot. I guess it would be time to discuss the moral implications. How does this scenario differ from the OP? en.wikipedia.org Miep Gies Quote: With her husband, and her colleagues, Victor Kugler, Johannes Kleiman, and Bep Voskuijl, Miep Gies helped hide Edith and Otto Frank, their daughters Margot and Anne Frank, Hermann and Auguste van Pels, their son Peter, and Fritz Pfeffer in the sealed-off back rooms of the company's office building on Amsterdam's Prinsengracht from July 1942 until 4 August 1944. In theory, Miep and the other helpers could have been shot if they had been caught hiding Jews. In practice, however, those caught hiding Jews were more commonly sentenced to four to six months of hard labor.
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14th November 2009, 09:06 AM	#36
blobru Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,275	Originally Posted by Fiona "Love thy neighbour as thyself" come in here at all? It does; however, Bodie is quick to point out that "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength" precedes it in Scripture; thus: Originally Posted by Gruppenführer Hodge Jesus tells us that all the commandments can be summed up into these two statements. But of these two, the first is to love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. So, this would trump the second. Our actions toward God should trump our actions toward men. And one should turn the Jew over to the Nazi, ihhcco.
blobru Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,275	__________________ "Say to them, 'I am Nobody!'" -- Ulysses to the Cyclops "Never mind. I can't read." -- Hokulele to the Easter Bunny Last edited by blobru; 14th November 2009 at 09:13 AM.