Is Acupuncture Safe?

rocketdodger · 16th November 2009, 10:46 AM

I just heard a coworker talking about acupunture with someone else, and it occured to me for the first time that we are talking about sticking needles in the axons of neurons.

Is this safe? I can't think of any reason I would want a metal object inserted into the axon of one of my neurons, given how important neurons are.

Belgian thought · 16th November 2009, 10:53 AM

If the needles are clean, then reasonably safe. What is not safe is your wallet - my partner spent oodles of money on the thing for a period of 2 years. She came to the conclusion that it was doing her no good (really...?), but also managed to somehow lay part of the blame on the lack of success due to my scepticism towards the subject!

Segnosaur · 16th November 2009, 11:07 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLowP0Cy1qs

JJM · 16th November 2009, 12:03 PM

The question about any treatment must be is it safe and effective. Look at www.quackwatch.org and (probably) www.skepdic.com

Acupuncture has been known to infect people by re-use of contaminated needles, and damage customers by puncturing things (like the heart) that should not be needled. So, one must balance the hazards with the possible benefits. There are no known benefits; therefore, one is put at risk for no reason.

rocketdodger · 16th November 2009, 12:26 PM

Well, I still don't understand why it is "reasonably safe" to pierce the cell wall of a neuron and drive a metal needle through it.

Does the injury just heal up very quickly? Are neurons resilient to such injury? I don't get it.

Professor Yaffle · 16th November 2009, 12:40 PM

I don't think that acupuncture specifically identifies neurons and targets them. Its just points on the skin. Where did you hear about this sticking needles in nerve cell axons?

rocketdodger · 16th November 2009, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

I don't think that acupuncture specifically identifies neurons and targets them. Its just points on the skin. Where did you hear about this sticking needles in nerve cell axons?

Nowhere -- I thought that is what acupuncture was. I thought the needles were supposed to hit nerves.

That isn't the case?

Professor Yaffle · 16th November 2009, 01:12 PM

Acupuncture was invented a very long time before nerve cells were even known about. The traditional points were based on "meridians" or energy channels that were hypothesised to exist.

I don't even know how an acupuncturist would possibly identify the exact positions of neurons, and then be accurate enough to hit them.

Lanzy · 16th November 2009, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by rocketdodger

Nowhere -- I thought that is what acupuncture was. I thought the needles were supposed to hit nerves.

That isn't the case?

Pretty sure they hit "Chi" points.

BTW, there is no such thing.

Jeff Corey · 16th November 2009, 08:21 PM

I remember reading that the "chi" was supposed to be flowing through tubes in the body and thinking, "Oh, well, Western medicine was pretty screwed up at one time, but it got better."
(newt reference)

Hydrogen Cyanide · 17th November 2009, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by JJM

...Acupuncture has been known to infect people by re-use of contaminated needles, and damage customers by puncturing things (like the heart) that should not be needled. So, one must balance the hazards with the possible benefits. There are no known benefits; therefore, one is put at risk for no reason.

Dr. Crislip had a recent blog post about it (registration required):
http://boards.medscape.com/forums?12...9bb1!comment=1

If you don't want to bother registering, you can hear him rant about acupuncture in his Quackcast:

Theory of Acupuncture

Acupuncture's Efficacy

Acupuncture update

Acupuncture and Chiropractic

And, of course, you can always read these posts at Science Based Medicine on Acupuncture: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=8

Another very interesting bit of information is the book Snake Oil Science.

arthwollipot · 17th November 2009, 12:28 AM

As far as I am aware, the axon of a neuron is many times smaller than a needle.

I also am totally baffled why rocketdodger thinks that this is what acupuncture is supposed to do. They're just intramuscular. Sometimes they don't even go far enough in to pierce the fat layer.

ponderingturtle · 17th November 2009, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by rocketdodger

Nowhere -- I thought that is what acupuncture was. I thought the needles were supposed to hit nerves.

That isn't the case?

No, they hit you right in the Chi. The goal is to get them to stimulate nodes of chi not nerves.

Soapy Sam · 17th November 2009, 10:18 AM

My sole experience of accupuncture was at the hands of a qualified physiotherapist - who is more into the "trigger point spasm release" model than any theory of meridians.

She did, however , manage to find a nerve in my forearm. It hurt like hell.

She maintains I'm just a wimp, but I've coped with several serious accidents with equanimity. I had a tooth pulled once sans anaesthetic. The pain levels were similar.

The critical question is more likely hygiene than damage though. Disposable, sterile needles are probably safe in themselves , unless stuck somewhere critical, but in the context of MRSA, C difficile etc, any unnecessary deep puncture wound should be avoided.
That's one reason I feel accupuncture in hospitals or clinics must be either prevented or subjected to surgical levels of supervision and sterility, which might make it a lot less appealing to the gullible.

pakeha · 17th November 2009, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Belgian thought

If the needles are clean, then reasonably safe. What is not safe is your wallet - my partner spent oodles of money on the thing for a period of 2 years. She came to the conclusion that it was doing her no good (really...?), but also managed to somehow lay part of the blame on the lack of success due to my scepticism towards the subject!

Curious. I have a dear friend, almost 80, who pulled a tendon while out walking several months back. X has been treating the condition with acupuncture, physiotherapy and osteopathy. No licensed physician has attended this injury, although it has lingered on into winter.
The physiotherapists gives X massage and recommends exercises.
The osteopath 'aligns' X's pelvis.
The acupuncturist stuffs X with needlas and at their last session said X is overdoing the therapy and should give up one of them.
Dropping physiotherapy was her recommendation.
X, after 4 months and the FSM knows how much money spent on 'therapies' has yet to have this injury diagnosed. X limps painfully and still has total faith in the acupuncturist's opinion.
Ideas, anyone?

Soapy Sam · 17th November 2009, 12:31 PM

Show X this thread.

Dogdoctor · 17th November 2009, 01:55 PM

Safe compared to what? If you compare it to doing nothing it's not safe. Compare it to a game of Russian roulette and it's quite safe. Proponents say it's safe if done correctly but that doesn't mean people don't die every year from it. Check out this link for articles on adverse effects form accupuncture.
http://www.veterinarywatch.com/Medline2.htm

PingOfPong · 17th November 2009, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

Curious. I have a dear friend, almost 80, who pulled a tendon while out walking several months back. X has been treating the condition with acupuncture, physiotherapy and osteopathy. No licensed physician has attended this injury, although it has lingered on into winter.
The physiotherapists gives X massage and recommends exercises.
The osteopath 'aligns' X's pelvis.
The acupuncturist stuffs X with needlas and at their last session said X is overdoing the therapy and should give up one of them.
Dropping physiotherapy was her recommendation.
X, after 4 months and the FSM knows how much money spent on 'therapies' has yet to have this injury diagnosed. X limps painfully and still has total faith in the acupuncturist's opinion.
Ideas, anyone?

My father is a real athletic guy. Unfortunately, he injured his foot pretty badly and now he limps a bit. I hate to break it to you but even real doctors can't fix everything. That doesn't mean that real doctors don't have a simple solution to alleviate X's injury. They might. It couldn't hurt to go to a doctor and ask.

16th November 2009, 10:46 AM	#1
rocketdodger Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hyperion Posts: 4,662	Is Acupuncture Safe? I just heard a coworker talking about acupunture with someone else, and it occured to me for the first time that we are talking about sticking needles in the axons of neurons. Is this safe? I can't think of any reason I would want a metal object inserted into the axon of one of my neurons, given how important neurons are.

16th November 2009, 10:53 AM	#2
Belgian thought Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 179	If the needles are clean, then reasonably safe. What is not safe is your wallet - my partner spent oodles of money on the thing for a period of 2 years. She came to the conclusion that it was doing her no good (really...?), but also managed to somehow lay part of the blame on the lack of success due to my scepticism towards the subject!
Belgian thought Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 179

16th November 2009, 11:07 AM	#3
Segnosaur Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,918	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLowP0Cy1qs
Segnosaur Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,918	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

16th November 2009, 12:03 PM	#4
JJM Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,720	The question about any treatment must be is it safe and effective. Look at www.quackwatch.org and (probably) www.skepdic.com Acupuncture has been known to infect people by re-use of contaminated needles, and damage customers by puncturing things (like the heart) that should not be needled. So, one must balance the hazards with the possible benefits. There are no known benefits; therefore, one is put at risk for no reason.
JJM Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,720

16th November 2009, 12:40 PM	#6
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 7,132	I don't think that acupuncture specifically identifies neurons and targets them. Its just points on the skin. Where did you hear about this sticking needles in nerve cell axons?
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that.

16th November 2009, 12:26 PM	#5
rocketdodger Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hyperion Posts: 4,662	Well, I still don't understand why it is "reasonably safe" to pierce the cell wall of a neuron and drive a metal needle through it. Does the injury just heal up very quickly? Are neurons resilient to such injury? I don't get it.

16th November 2009, 01:09 PM	#7
rocketdodger Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hyperion Posts: 4,662	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle I don't think that acupuncture specifically identifies neurons and targets them. Its just points on the skin. Where did you hear about this sticking needles in nerve cell axons? Nowhere -- I thought that is what acupuncture was. I thought the needles were supposed to hit nerves. That isn't the case?

16th November 2009, 01:12 PM	#8
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 7,132	Acupuncture was invented a very long time before nerve cells were even known about. The traditional points were based on "meridians" or energy channels that were hypothesised to exist. I don't even know how an acupuncturist would possibly identify the exact positions of neurons, and then be accurate enough to hit them.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 16th November 2009 at 01:14 PM.

16th November 2009, 01:13 PM	#9
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 695	Originally Posted by rocketdodger Nowhere -- I thought that is what acupuncture was. I thought the needles were supposed to hit nerves. That isn't the case? Pretty sure they hit "Chi" points. BTW, there is no such thing.

16th November 2009, 08:21 PM	#10
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,731	I remember reading that the "chi" was supposed to be flowing through tubes in the body and thinking, "Oh, well, Western medicine was pretty screwed up at one time, but it got better." (newt reference)

17th November 2009, 12:00 AM	#11
Hydrogen Cyanide Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 3,752	Originally Posted by JJM ...Acupuncture has been known to infect people by re-use of contaminated needles, and damage customers by puncturing things (like the heart) that should not be needled. So, one must balance the hazards with the possible benefits. There are no known benefits; therefore, one is put at risk for no reason. Dr. Crislip had a recent blog post about it (registration required): http://boards.medscape.com/forums?12...9bb1!comment=1 If you don't want to bother registering, you can hear him rant about acupuncture in his Quackcast: Theory of Acupuncture Acupuncture's Efficacy Acupuncture update Acupuncture and Chiropractic And, of course, you can always read these posts at Science Based Medicine on Acupuncture: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=8 Another very interesting bit of information is the book Snake Oil Science.
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

17th November 2009, 12:28 AM	#12
arthwollipot The Accidental Podcaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On the other side of your screen. Posts: 28,320	As far as I am aware, the axon of a neuron is many times smaller than a needle. I also am totally baffled why rocketdodger thinks that this is what acupuncture is supposed to do. They're just intramuscular. Sometimes they don't even go far enough in to pierce the fat layer.
	__________________ The Nonsense Podcast Episode 17: Coming Mid-February. We welcome Lexi Hameister into the world at 1830 on 29 January! What's an "arthwollipot"?

17th November 2009, 05:41 AM	#13
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,770	Originally Posted by rocketdodger Nowhere -- I thought that is what acupuncture was. I thought the needles were supposed to hit nerves. That isn't the case? No, they hit you right in the Chi. The goal is to get them to stimulate nodes of chi not nerves.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

17th November 2009, 10:18 AM	#14
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092	My sole experience of accupuncture was at the hands of a qualified physiotherapist - who is more into the "trigger point spasm release" model than any theory of meridians. She did, however , manage to find a nerve in my forearm. It hurt like hell. She maintains I'm just a wimp, but I've coped with several serious accidents with equanimity. I had a tooth pulled once sans anaesthetic. The pain levels were similar. The critical question is more likely hygiene than damage though. Disposable, sterile needles are probably safe in themselves , unless stuck somewhere critical, but in the context of MRSA, C difficile etc, any unnecessary deep puncture wound should be avoided. That's one reason I feel accupuncture in hospitals or clinics must be either prevented or subjected to surgical levels of supervision and sterility, which might make it a lot less appealing to the gullible.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092

17th November 2009, 11:36 AM	#15
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	Originally Posted by Belgian thought If the needles are clean, then reasonably safe. What is not safe is your wallet - my partner spent oodles of money on the thing for a period of 2 years. She came to the conclusion that it was doing her no good (really...?), but also managed to somehow lay part of the blame on the lack of success due to my scepticism towards the subject! Curious. I have a dear friend, almost 80, who pulled a tendon while out walking several months back. X has been treating the condition with acupuncture, physiotherapy and osteopathy. No licensed physician has attended this injury, although it has lingered on into winter. The physiotherapists gives X massage and recommends exercises. The osteopath 'aligns' X's pelvis. The acupuncturist stuffs X with needlas and at their last session said X is overdoing the therapy and should give up one of them. Dropping physiotherapy was her recommendation. X, after 4 months and the FSM knows how much money spent on 'therapies' has yet to have this injury diagnosed. X limps painfully and still has total faith in the acupuncturist's opinion. Ideas, anyone?
pakeha Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,099	__________________ It's a perfect time of year. It's your hemisphere that's all wrong. from "The Wisdom of Akhenaten, the Heretic Pharaoh", vol. 12.

17th November 2009, 12:31 PM	#16
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092	Show X this thread.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092

17th November 2009, 01:55 PM	#17
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 12,381	Safe compared to what? If you compare it to doing nothing it's not safe. Compare it to a game of Russian roulette and it's quite safe. Proponents say it's safe if done correctly but that doesn't mean people don't die every year from it. Check out this link for articles on adverse effects form accupuncture. http://www.veterinarywatch.com/Medline2.htm
	__________________

17th November 2009, 02:40 PM	#18
PingOfPong Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 421	Originally Posted by pakeha Curious. I have a dear friend, almost 80, who pulled a tendon while out walking several months back. X has been treating the condition with acupuncture, physiotherapy and osteopathy. No licensed physician has attended this injury, although it has lingered on into winter. The physiotherapists gives X massage and recommends exercises. The osteopath 'aligns' X's pelvis. The acupuncturist stuffs X with needlas and at their last session said X is overdoing the therapy and should give up one of them. Dropping physiotherapy was her recommendation. X, after 4 months and the FSM knows how much money spent on 'therapies' has yet to have this injury diagnosed. X limps painfully and still has total faith in the acupuncturist's opinion. Ideas, anyone? My father is a real athletic guy. Unfortunately, he injured his foot pretty badly and now he limps a bit. I hate to break it to you but even real doctors can't fix everything. That doesn't mean that real doctors don't have a simple solution to alleviate X's injury. They might. It couldn't hurt to go to a doctor and ask.