Transcendental Meditation may ACTUALLY help you

m_huber · 17th November 2009, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Meditation can cut the risk of heart attack, stroke, and death by almost 50% in patients with existing coronary heart disease, according to a new clinical trial. The findings indicate that relaxation and mental focusing can be as effective as powerful new drugs in treating heart disease.

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi...ll/2009/1116/1

Looks legit to me. So should I go get a mat and start humming now, or wait for more results?

casebro · 17th November 2009, 08:09 AM

Wait for a more complete discussion in a peer reviewed journal.

My quick read of the link shows that it was not double blinded. The meditators knew they were meditating, so probably also went ahead and took other steps. Like diet, exercise, smoking cessation, lowered blood sugars, weight loss, etc. No mention of whether the study corrected for such confounding factors.

Red flags to me- do you think the Mahareshi University is un-biased? The cardiologist quoted also has a name like "Joe Yogi".

MattusMaximus · 17th November 2009, 08:20 AM

TM helps one lose weight... by lightening the wallet

kuroyume0161 · 17th November 2009, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

TM helps one lose weight... by lightening the wallet

I think you've hit on something there, oh Guy Fawkes impersonator!

Maybe the actual goal of TM is to remove so much weight from a person that they then begin to float. Of course, that would be all weight but why squibble.

PingOfPong · 17th November 2009, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by m_huber

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi...ll/2009/1116/1

Looks legit to me. So should I go get a mat and start humming now, or wait for more results?

Get a mat right away. Meditation feels great regardless of its health benefits. You don't need a mat or the humming though. There's no need to look like some flaky new age person.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 17th November 2009, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

Red flags to me- do you think the Mahareshi University is un-biased?

Speaking as a trained teacher of Transcendental Meditation: no.

~~ Paul

NoisyAstronomer · 17th November 2009, 11:35 AM

Hmm... I wonder if it's TM specifically or general stress-reduction techniques. I'd like to see a study of various techniques. I'm too stressed out, I'll participate!

Professor Yaffle · 17th November 2009, 11:37 AM

Mindfulness (a type of meditation) based CBT is probably helpful in preventing recurrence of depression.

BenBurch · 17th November 2009, 11:48 AM

Any meditation done consistently helps you by relieving stress. You don't need a guru to teach you.

m_huber · 17th November 2009, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by PingOfPong

Get a mat right away. Meditation feels great regardless of its health benefits. You don't need a mat or the humming though. There's no need to look like some flaky new age person.

I used to practice meditation on a fairly regular basis, and it did feel great. I've pretty much avoided it since leaving my religious upbringing. It seems to be linked to whatever emotions/chemical reactions are close to the religious ones. I guess what I'm saying is that it scares me a little bit.

fls · 17th November 2009, 11:53 AM

Abstract:

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/cont...urcetype=HWCIT

It's a barely significant result for a large reduction. I suspect that there were hardly any outcome events in either group to get a result like that. More details are needed.

ETA: It's also a very odd study population. I wonder what it was drawn from.

Linda

casebro · 17th November 2009, 04:35 PM

I've found that solid blow to the head will accomplish a relaxed state too. And do it much faster.

Seriously, when I've been clonked in car and motorcycle accidents, a wild pitch, I do wake up verrry relaxed. Much more so than when waking from sleep. Always knew the impact was coming. I've wondered if the 'knocked out' is really a psychological shutting down before the impact, more than the impact knocking me out. The psych shut down would be a deep meditation, no?

Next time I try meditating, I'll focus on the baseball spinning as it nears. "See the red stitches... it's getting closer..closer.."

ETA: this thread is giving me a head ache.

mamapajamas · 17th November 2009, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Any meditation done consistently helps you by relieving stress. You don't need a guru to teach you.

And this is the money quote. It IS true that meditation helps relieve stress. Psychology researchers have been tracking alpha and beta waves on EEGs for more than 40 years on this. One of the things they discovered was that it didn't even matter what kind of meditation you used, it nevertheless relieved stress if you were consistent with it.

Belief in your method also helped, but wasn't as important as being consistent.

bruto · 17th November 2009, 07:45 PM

When I was a kid they called it daydreaming and all it got me was bad grades, yelling parents and predictions of a life drinking sterno out of a cracked cup. Now suddenly I'm supposed to get a mat and pay some guy in a diaper with beads in his beard to teach me how to get it back? **** that.

The Man · 17th November 2009, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

I've found that solid blow to the head will accomplish a relaxed state too. And do it much faster.

Seriously, when I've been clonked in car and motorcycle accidents, a wild pitch, I do wake up verrry relaxed. Much more so than when waking from sleep. Always knew the impact was coming. I've wondered if the 'knocked out' is really a psychological shutting down before the impact, more than the impact knocking me out. The psych shut down would be a deep meditation, no?

Next time I try meditating, I'll focus on the baseball spinning as it nears. "See the red stitches... it's getting closer..closer.."

ETA: this thread is giving me a head ache.

There you go, a new methodology

T. I. M.

Traumatic Impact Mediation

When done right you won’t even remember why you were stressed out before (or anything else).

T.I.M. provider; “He says he’s still stressed.”

T.I.M. guru; “Hit him again, harder.”

Tsukasa Buddha · 17th November 2009, 11:36 PM

The problem with double blinding meditation is that you need to be able to differentiate meditation as something other than sitting idly. I know some people like to use alpha waves etc., but I don't buy that metric. And then is TM different from other types of meditation?

!Kaggen · 17th November 2009, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

The problem with double blinding meditation is that you need to be able to differentiate meditation as something other than sitting idly. I know some people like to use alpha waves etc., but I don't buy that metric. And then is TM different from other types of meditation?

The problem with double blinding getting out of the way of a fast moving truck is its irrelevant to saving my life.
The point of meditation is not to convince others of the benefits, but convince myself.

NoisyAstronomer · 19th November 2009, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

The point of meditation is not to convince others of the benefits, but convince myself.

That's an interesting sentiment. Understandable that you want to do what works for you, as we each ultimately end up doing, but then you can't expect others to believe a news story like that which started this thread.

!Kaggen · 19th November 2009, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by NoisyAstronomer

That's an interesting sentiment. Understandable that you want to do what works for you, as we each ultimately end up doing, but then you can't expect others to believe a news story like that which started this thread.

Since when did a plant ask us to believe in it?
If you want to know about the benefits of being a plant I suggest you inquire, it is certainly not going to tell you.

As Wittgenstein said:
What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence.

m_huber · 19th November 2009, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

Since when did a plant ask us to believe in it?
If you want to know about the benefits of being a plant I suggest you inquire, it is certainly not going to tell you.

As Wittgenstein said:
What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that, if I want to know what it is like to be a fruit, I need to be a fruit?

Part of the problem with personal experience as evidence is that it is entirely subjective. The point of this study is that it is averaged over a large number of people. If it is a valid study, then it is completely the opposite of "proving it to myself."

And there are pundits whose whole job is to speak about that which they know nothing of.

jakesteele · 19th November 2009, 06:18 PM

http://relaxationresponse.org/

http://www.amazon.com/Relaxation-Res.../dp/0380006766

TM does work very well, but all it is is a simplified version of Hindu meditation techniques that are cloaked in science speak. The TM organization is very good at marketing.

If you read the book, Relaxation Response, by Dr. Herbert Benson you will see TM and a number of other meditation techniques stripped of their religious crap and boiled down to their essence. Now, of course, TM will try to tell you that somehow their mantras have "special effects" that no one else has...********.

!Kaggen · 20th November 2009, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by m_huber

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that, if I want to know what it is like to be a fruit, I need to be a fruit?

Part of the problem with personal experience as evidence is that it is entirely subjective. The point of this study is that it is averaged over a large number of people. If it is a valid study, then it is completely the opposite of "proving it to myself."

And there are pundits whose whole job is to speak about that which they know nothing of.

The meditative state is not an objective experience and will never be. Its about a state of being that someone claims to be in. If you want to "speak about" a meditative state all you can do is find correlations between someone claiming to be in this state and what you can objectively talk about. Logical causation however will remain forever elusive. Whoever teaches meditation is not talking about what this state is, but what we need to do to get to it. That is why there may be many "techniques" to achieve a meditative state, not just TM. All this study shows is that the techniques used in TM correlate with some health benefits. Going for a quiet stroll in the park whilst humming a favorite song or working in the garden may have the exact same correlation.

In my opinion the study is just a sales pitch for TM techniques and does nothing to promote the meditative state. Its in the same category of the exercise and diet fads. Its all about something we don't have and have to have, not what we already have and just need to perfect.

In the same way being a plant is not an objective experience so we cannot measure what it is to be a plant, but only measure the interaction of a plant with its environment.

So yes if you want to know what being a plant is like you need to be one.
Good luck

Originally Posted by m_huber

And there are pundits whose whole job is to speak about that which they know nothing of.

Only the entertaining ones stand the test of time though.

wmadoss · 20th November 2009, 01:18 AM

Read a review of 50 Great Myths of Popular Psychology: Shattering Widespread Misconceptions about Human Behavior by Scott O. Lilienfeld, Steven Jay Lynn, John Ruscio, and the late, great skeptic Barry L. Beyerstein on the following link.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2463

If you read the comments someone suggests that there are alof of peerreviewed papers regarding TM.

Ill paste a snippet from the comments below.
I have a hard time believing TM to be as useful as this person claims (hes called lighthousekeeper in the comments i believe)

Quote:

For example, in several randomized controlled trials TM has been found to significantly lower high blood pressure—something that ordinary rest does not do. A meta-analysis at University of Kentucky, recently published in the American Journal of Hypertension, examined 107 previous studies on stress reduction programs and hypertension. The study found that TM is the only mind-body practice that significantly reduces high blood pressure. But this is just one example of how TM has been scientifically demonstrated to improve your health. Over 350 independent, peer-reviewed studies, conducted at over 230 medical schools and research institutions around the world, show that TM is powerful medicine. Replicated studies and meta-analysis have also shown that TM provides deeper rest than ordinary relaxation, as measured by respiration rate, skin resistance, and plasma lactate. TM is an entirely different state of psycho-physiological functioning, distinct from ordinary rest, with a unique brain pattern—high EEG alpha coherence throughout the entire brain.

In recent years, the AMA, the American Heart Association, the American Psychological Association, and the American College of Cardiology have all published or promoted research on the health benefits of TM. The NIH has given $26 million over the past 18 years for scientists to research the effects of TM on cardiovascular health and brain functioning—and the US Government continues to fund TM research only because there’s a precedence of solid, highly promising findings. Another NIH grant for $2 million was announced this month.

m_huber · 20th November 2009, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by !Kaggen

The meditative state is not an objective experience and will never be. Its about a state of being that someone claims to be in. If you want to "speak about" a meditative state all you can do is find correlations between someone claiming to be in this state and what you can objectively talk about. Logical causation however will remain forever elusive. Whoever teaches meditation is not talking about what this state is, but what we need to do to get to it. That is why there may be many "techniques" to achieve a meditative state, not just TM. All this study shows is that the techniques used in TM correlate with some health benefits. Going for a quiet stroll in the park whilst humming a favorite song or working in the garden may have the exact same correlation.

In my opinion the study is just a sales pitch for TM techniques and does nothing to promote the meditative state. Its in the same category of the exercise and diet fads. Its all about something we don't have and have to have, not what we already have and just need to perfect.

In the same way being a plant is not an objective experience so we cannot measure what it is to be a plant, but only measure the interaction of a plant with its environment.

So yes if you want to know what being a plant is like you need to be one.
Good luck

I follow your point about the experience being different than the objective reality of a situation. There may be something to that, though I am not sure exactly what to make of it.

A similar statement could be made about mind altering drugs. I can read about the effects, but I won't "know" what it is like until I partake. However, an outside observer can note what I do, my brain can be hooked up to imaging machines to see what effect it has on me, a group can be given the drug to see if there is a pattern to the emotions and experiences, and a general objective understanding of what is going on can be attained.

If there are techniques that result in a meditative state being achieved, then the effects of meditation can be measured by having a large group perform the techniques, which is what this study purports to be. If meditation actually does something to/for you, it can be measured.

PingOfPong · 20th November 2009, 01:16 PM

I always thought of meditation as a personal art. It's a way to explore being. I'm fairly experienced at it although that wouldn't mean anything to any of you because there is no good metric for it.

Quote:

The meditative state is not an objective experience and will never be. ... Logical causation however will remain forever elusive ... That is why there may be many "techniques" to achieve a meditative state, not just TM ... Going for a quiet stroll in the park whilst humming a favorite song or working in the garden may have the exact same correlation.

This is only speculative but from my experience the essential element of meditation is to remain motionless and alert. "Doing nothing" is actually one of my meditative exercises. I've actually tried this as a minimalist technique. I didn't focus on my breathing, filter out extraneous thought, or try to visualize an image (I've never use a mantra btw). I sit comfortably (no slouching though), breathe normally, and try not to think of anything in particular. After ten minutes, it will give you that distinctive "relaxation response" which is so much different from taking a walk or anything else in my opinion.

So, I would say that any meditation that involves being still and alert would have similar results to TM from a medical standpoint. I don't really think that logical causation for any alleged medical benefits are as elusive as you might think Kaggen.

17th November 2009, 06:10 AM	#1
m_huber Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 780	Transcendental Meditation may ACTUALLY help you Quote: Meditation can cut the risk of heart attack, stroke, and death by almost 50% in patients with existing coronary heart disease, according to a new clinical trial. The findings indicate that relaxation and mental focusing can be as effective as powerful new drugs in treating heart disease. http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi...ll/2009/1116/1 Looks legit to me. So should I go get a mat and start humming now, or wait for more results?
m_huber Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 780	__________________ "A certain percentage of children have the habit of thinking; one of the aims of education is to cure them of this habit." -- Bertrand Russell on problems with traditional educational methods.

17th November 2009, 08:09 AM	#2
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	Wait for a more complete discussion in a peer reviewed journal. My quick read of the link shows that it was not double blinded. The meditators knew they were meditating, so probably also went ahead and took other steps. Like diet, exercise, smoking cessation, lowered blood sugars, weight loss, etc. No mention of whether the study corrected for such confounding factors. Red flags to me- do you think the Mahareshi University is un-biased? The cardiologist quoted also has a name like "Joe Yogi".
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

17th November 2009, 08:20 AM	#3
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 7,123	TM helps one lose weight... by lightening the wallet
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher Critical Thinking Education Group (CTEG) Chicago's First Skepticamp: Skepchicamp - March 6, 2010 Secular & Skeptic Help for Haiti

17th November 2009, 11:28 AM	#6
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Looking for Fountain of Smart Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 17,157	Originally Posted by casebro Red flags to me- do you think the Mahareshi University is un-biased? Speaking as a trained teacher of Transcendental Meditation: no. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz pi = 3.1415926...19729715941700531415926095214704122509...

17th November 2009, 11:35 AM	#7
NoisyAstronomer Scholar Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 81	Hmm... I wonder if it's TM specifically or general stress-reduction techniques. I'd like to see a study of various techniques. I'm too stressed out, I'll participate!
	__________________ Where the world ceases to be the scene of our personal hopes and wishes, where we face it as free beings admiring, asking and observing, there we enter the realm of Art and Science. -Albert Einstein

17th November 2009, 08:26 AM	#4
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Calhan, CO, USA Posts: 1,233	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus TM helps one lose weight... by lightening the wallet I think you've hit on something there, oh Guy Fawkes impersonator! Maybe the actual goal of TM is to remove so much weight from a person that they then begin to float. Of course, that would be all weight but why squibble.

17th November 2009, 08:27 AM	#5
PingOfPong Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 421	Originally Posted by m_huber http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi...ll/2009/1116/1 Looks legit to me. So should I go get a mat and start humming now, or wait for more results? Get a mat right away. Meditation feels great regardless of its health benefits. You don't need a mat or the humming though. There's no need to look like some flaky new age person.

17th November 2009, 11:37 AM	#8
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 7,131	Mindfulness (a type of meditation) based CBT is probably helpful in preventing recurrence of depression.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that.

17th November 2009, 11:48 AM	#9
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,782	Any meditation done consistently helps you by relieving stress. You don't need a guru to teach you.
	__________________ A Liberal Dose of Talk Dog is my co-pilot. GENERATION 7: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

17th November 2009, 11:51 AM	#10
m_huber Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 780	Originally Posted by PingOfPong Get a mat right away. Meditation feels great regardless of its health benefits. You don't need a mat or the humming though. There's no need to look like some flaky new age person. I used to practice meditation on a fairly regular basis, and it did feel great. I've pretty much avoided it since leaving my religious upbringing. It seems to be linked to whatever emotions/chemical reactions are close to the religious ones. I guess what I'm saying is that it scares me a little bit.
m_huber Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 780	__________________ "A certain percentage of children have the habit of thinking; one of the aims of education is to cure them of this habit." -- Bertrand Russell on problems with traditional educational methods.

17th November 2009, 11:53 AM	#11
fls Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,048	Abstract: http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/cont...urcetype=HWCIT It's a barely significant result for a large reduction. I suspect that there were hardly any outcome events in either group to get a result like that. More details are needed. ETA: It's also a very odd study population. I wonder what it was drawn from. Linda
fls Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,048	__________________ God - a capricious creative or controlling force said to be the subject of a religion. Evidence is anything that tends to make a proposition more or less true.-Loss Leader sCAM will now be referred to as DIM - Demonstrably Ineffective Medicine www.stopsylvia.com Last edited by fls; 17th November 2009 at 11:55 AM.

17th November 2009, 04:35 PM	#12
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	I've found that solid blow to the head will accomplish a relaxed state too. And do it much faster. Seriously, when I've been clonked in car and motorcycle accidents, a wild pitch, I do wake up verrry relaxed. Much more so than when waking from sleep. Always knew the impact was coming. I've wondered if the 'knocked out' is really a psychological shutting down before the impact, more than the impact knocking me out. The psych shut down would be a deep meditation, no? Next time I try meditating, I'll focus on the baseball spinning as it nears. "See the red stitches... it's getting closer..closer.." ETA: this thread is giving me a head ache.
casebro Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,728	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

17th November 2009, 05:31 PM	#13
mamapajamas Thinker Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 131	Originally Posted by BenBurch Any meditation done consistently helps you by relieving stress. You don't need a guru to teach you. And this is the money quote. It IS true that meditation helps relieve stress. Psychology researchers have been tracking alpha and beta waves on EEGs for more than 40 years on this. One of the things they discovered was that it didn't even matter what kind of meditation you used, it nevertheless relieved stress if you were consistent with it. Belief in your method also helped, but wasn't as important as being consistent.
mamapajamas Thinker Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 131	__________________ Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.-Rich Cook

17th November 2009, 07:45 PM	#14
bruto Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 6,657	When I was a kid they called it daydreaming and all it got me was bad grades, yelling parents and predictions of a life drinking sterno out of a cracked cup. Now suddenly I'm supposed to get a mat and pay some guy in a diaper with beads in his beard to teach me how to get it back? **** that.
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson)

17th November 2009, 08:35 PM	#15
The Man Scourge, of the supernatural Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 4,035	Originally Posted by casebro I've found that solid blow to the head will accomplish a relaxed state too. And do it much faster. Seriously, when I've been clonked in car and motorcycle accidents, a wild pitch, I do wake up verrry relaxed. Much more so than when waking from sleep. Always knew the impact was coming. I've wondered if the 'knocked out' is really a psychological shutting down before the impact, more than the impact knocking me out. The psych shut down would be a deep meditation, no? Next time I try meditating, I'll focus on the baseball spinning as it nears. "See the red stitches... it's getting closer..closer.." ETA: this thread is giving me a head ache. There you go, a new methodology T. I. M. Traumatic Impact Mediation When done right you won’t even remember why you were stressed out before (or anything else). T.I.M. provider; “He says he’s still stressed.” T.I.M. guru; “Hit him again, harder.”
	__________________ "Not a seat but a springboard” (1942 Winston Churchill) "As he who, seeking asses, found a kingdom" (1671 Milton "Paradise Regained") "for it seem'd A void was made in nature, all her bonds Crack'd; and I saw the flaring atom-streams And torrents of her myriad universe, Ruining along the illimitable inane, Fly on to clash together again, and make Another and another frame of things For ever." (1868 Tennyson "Lucretius")

17th November 2009, 11:36 PM	#16
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 4,637	The problem with double blinding meditation is that you need to be able to differentiate meditation as something other than sitting idly. I know some people like to use alpha waves etc., but I don't buy that metric. And then is TM different from other types of meditation?
	__________________ Monk to Zen Master: What happens after death, master? Zen master: I don’t know. Monk: But you are a master! Master: Yes, but I’m not a dead one yet.

17th November 2009, 11:44 PM	#17
!Kaggen Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Home Posts: 1,181	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha The problem with double blinding meditation is that you need to be able to differentiate meditation as something other than sitting idly. I know some people like to use alpha waves etc., but I don't buy that metric. And then is TM different from other types of meditation? The problem with double blinding getting out of the way of a fast moving truck is its irrelevant to saving my life. The point of meditation is not to convince others of the benefits, but convince myself.
	__________________ the source

19th November 2009, 08:26 AM	#18
NoisyAstronomer Scholar Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 81	Originally Posted by !Kaggen The point of meditation is not to convince others of the benefits, but convince myself. That's an interesting sentiment. Understandable that you want to do what works for you, as we each ultimately end up doing, but then you can't expect others to believe a news story like that which started this thread.
	__________________ Where the world ceases to be the scene of our personal hopes and wishes, where we face it as free beings admiring, asking and observing, there we enter the realm of Art and Science. -Albert Einstein

19th November 2009, 09:07 AM	#19
!Kaggen Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Home Posts: 1,181	Originally Posted by NoisyAstronomer That's an interesting sentiment. Understandable that you want to do what works for you, as we each ultimately end up doing, but then you can't expect others to believe a news story like that which started this thread. Since when did a plant ask us to believe in it? If you want to know about the benefits of being a plant I suggest you inquire, it is certainly not going to tell you. As Wittgenstein said: What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence.
	__________________ the source

19th November 2009, 02:54 PM	#20
m_huber Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 780	Originally Posted by !Kaggen Since when did a plant ask us to believe in it? If you want to know about the benefits of being a plant I suggest you inquire, it is certainly not going to tell you. As Wittgenstein said: What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence. I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that, if I want to know what it is like to be a fruit, I need to be a fruit? Part of the problem with personal experience as evidence is that it is entirely subjective. The point of this study is that it is averaged over a large number of people. If it is a valid study, then it is completely the opposite of "proving it to myself." And there are pundits whose whole job is to speak about that which they know nothing of.
m_huber Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 780	__________________ "A certain percentage of children have the habit of thinking; one of the aims of education is to cure them of this habit." -- Bertrand Russell on problems with traditional educational methods.

19th November 2009, 06:18 PM	#21
jakesteele Muse Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 521	http://relaxationresponse.org/ http://www.amazon.com/Relaxation-Res.../dp/0380006766 TM does work very well, but all it is is a simplified version of Hindu meditation techniques that are cloaked in science speak. The TM organization is very good at marketing. If you read the book, Relaxation Response, by Dr. Herbert Benson you will see TM and a number of other meditation techniques stripped of their religious crap and boiled down to their essence. Now, of course, TM will try to tell you that somehow their mantras have "special effects" that no one else has...********.
jakesteele Muse Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 521	__________________ Beware the Jabberwock, my son!

20th November 2009, 12:16 AM	#22
!Kaggen Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Home Posts: 1,181	Originally Posted by m_huber I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that, if I want to know what it is like to be a fruit, I need to be a fruit? Part of the problem with personal experience as evidence is that it is entirely subjective. The point of this study is that it is averaged over a large number of people. If it is a valid study, then it is completely the opposite of "proving it to myself." And there are pundits whose whole job is to speak about that which they know nothing of. The meditative state is not an objective experience and will never be. Its about a state of being that someone claims to be in. If you want to "speak about" a meditative state all you can do is find correlations between someone claiming to be in this state and what you can objectively talk about. Logical causation however will remain forever elusive. Whoever teaches meditation is not talking about what this state is, but what we need to do to get to it. That is why there may be many "techniques" to achieve a meditative state, not just TM. All this study shows is that the techniques used in TM correlate with some health benefits. Going for a quiet stroll in the park whilst humming a favorite song or working in the garden may have the exact same correlation. In my opinion the study is just a sales pitch for TM techniques and does nothing to promote the meditative state. Its in the same category of the exercise and diet fads. Its all about something we don't have and have to have, not what we already have and just need to perfect. In the same way being a plant is not an objective experience so we cannot measure what it is to be a plant, but only measure the interaction of a plant with its environment. So yes if you want to know what being a plant is like you need to be one. Good luck Originally Posted by m_huber And there are pundits whose whole job is to speak about that which they know nothing of. Only the entertaining ones stand the test of time though.
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20th November 2009, 01:18 AM	#23
wmadoss Student Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 42	Read a review of 50 Great Myths of Popular Psychology: Shattering Widespread Misconceptions about Human Behavior by Scott O. Lilienfeld, Steven Jay Lynn, John Ruscio, and the late, great skeptic Barry L. Beyerstein on the following link. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2463 If you read the comments someone suggests that there are alof of peerreviewed papers regarding TM. Ill paste a snippet from the comments below. I have a hard time believing TM to be as useful as this person claims (hes called lighthousekeeper in the comments i believe) Quote: For example, in several randomized controlled trials TM has been found to significantly lower high blood pressure—something that ordinary rest does not do. A meta-analysis at University of Kentucky, recently published in the American Journal of Hypertension, examined 107 previous studies on stress reduction programs and hypertension. The study found that TM is the only mind-body practice that significantly reduces high blood pressure. But this is just one example of how TM has been scientifically demonstrated to improve your health. Over 350 independent, peer-reviewed studies, conducted at over 230 medical schools and research institutions around the world, show that TM is powerful medicine. Replicated studies and meta-analysis have also shown that TM provides deeper rest than ordinary relaxation, as measured by respiration rate, skin resistance, and plasma lactate. TM is an entirely different state of psycho-physiological functioning, distinct from ordinary rest, with a unique brain pattern—high EEG alpha coherence throughout the entire brain. In recent years, the AMA, the American Heart Association, the American Psychological Association, and the American College of Cardiology have all published or promoted research on the health benefits of TM. The NIH has given $26 million over the past 18 years for scientists to research the effects of TM on cardiovascular health and brain functioning—and the US Government continues to fund TM research only because there’s a precedence of solid, highly promising findings. Another NIH grant for $2 million was announced this month.

20th November 2009, 11:06 AM	#24
m_huber Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 780	Originally Posted by !Kaggen The meditative state is not an objective experience and will never be. Its about a state of being that someone claims to be in. If you want to "speak about" a meditative state all you can do is find correlations between someone claiming to be in this state and what you can objectively talk about. Logical causation however will remain forever elusive. Whoever teaches meditation is not talking about what this state is, but what we need to do to get to it. That is why there may be many "techniques" to achieve a meditative state, not just TM. All this study shows is that the techniques used in TM correlate with some health benefits. Going for a quiet stroll in the park whilst humming a favorite song or working in the garden may have the exact same correlation. In my opinion the study is just a sales pitch for TM techniques and does nothing to promote the meditative state. Its in the same category of the exercise and diet fads. Its all about something we don't have and have to have, not what we already have and just need to perfect. In the same way being a plant is not an objective experience so we cannot measure what it is to be a plant, but only measure the interaction of a plant with its environment. So yes if you want to know what being a plant is like you need to be one. Good luck I follow your point about the experience being different than the objective reality of a situation. There may be something to that, though I am not sure exactly what to make of it. A similar statement could be made about mind altering drugs. I can read about the effects, but I won't "know" what it is like until I partake. However, an outside observer can note what I do, my brain can be hooked up to imaging machines to see what effect it has on me, a group can be given the drug to see if there is a pattern to the emotions and experiences, and a general objective understanding of what is going on can be attained. If there are techniques that result in a meditative state being achieved, then the effects of meditation can be measured by having a large group perform the techniques, which is what this study purports to be. If meditation actually does something to/for you, it can be measured.
m_huber Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 780	__________________ "A certain percentage of children have the habit of thinking; one of the aims of education is to cure them of this habit." -- Bertrand Russell on problems with traditional educational methods.

20th November 2009, 01:16 PM	#25
PingOfPong Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 421	I always thought of meditation as a personal art. It's a way to explore being. I'm fairly experienced at it although that wouldn't mean anything to any of you because there is no good metric for it. Quote: The meditative state is not an objective experience and will never be. ... Logical causation however will remain forever elusive ... That is why there may be many "techniques" to achieve a meditative state, not just TM ... Going for a quiet stroll in the park whilst humming a favorite song or working in the garden may have the exact same correlation. This is only speculative but from my experience the essential element of meditation is to remain motionless and alert. "Doing nothing" is actually one of my meditative exercises. I've actually tried this as a minimalist technique. I didn't focus on my breathing, filter out extraneous thought, or try to visualize an image (I've never use a mantra btw). I sit comfortably (no slouching though), breathe normally, and try not to think of anything in particular. After ten minutes, it will give you that distinctive "relaxation response" which is so much different from taking a walk or anything else in my opinion. So, I would say that any meditation that involves being still and alert would have similar results to TM from a medical standpoint. I don't really think that logical causation for any alleged medical benefits are as elusive as you might think Kaggen.