Neuro-Linguistic Programming

RVM45 · 17th November 2009, 12:44 PM

Guys, I,ve been busy,and have forgotten to come by for awhile...

But when I sense someone may be trying to sell me a load of... er...well...

I know where some of the best informed and skilled Debunkers dwell.

Have you encountered this--well, I guess it an attempt to use certain word patterns for their {alleged} very strong; and fairly predictable effects of putting people under an unconcious form of Hypnotic Compulsion...

They call it "Neuro-Linguistic Programming"; or "Mind Control Linguistic Patterns"

The dude quotes Voltaire as saying that given ten minutes to get her mind off his ugly face, he could have seduced the Queen of France {Looking at some of the old portraits, not sure that's a positive occurance...}.

Still, the rules of Cold Reading are fairly simple, and easy to practice...

Maybe this WOO is TOO...

Never know.

.....RVM45

Soapy Sam · 18th November 2009, 03:05 AM

Words have power. If I started this sentence with "Pay attention you fool", your nervous response to it would be quite different , because you would feel insulted. Merely by using words, I change the state of your nervous system, maybe half the planet away.

It stands to reason that by tailoring and targeting what I say to known aspects of your psychology, I may be able to sway you in one direction or another.

So much is obvious. People have been using language that way for ever.

Giving it a fancy name and pretending to have quantified / systematised good old rhetoric doesn't add much that I can see.

UNLoVedRebel · 18th November 2009, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by RVM45

Guys, I,ve been busy,and have forgotten to come by for awhile...

But when I sense someone may be trying to sell me a load of... er...well...

I know where some of the best informed and skilled Debunkers dwell.

Have you encountered this--well, I guess it an attempt to use certain word patterns for their {alleged} very strong; and fairly predictable effects of putting people under an unconcious form of Hypnotic Compulsion...

They call it "Neuro-Linguistic Programming"; or "Mind Control Linguistic Patterns"

The dude quotes Voltaire as saying that given ten minutes to get her mind off his ugly face, he could have seduced the Queen of France {Looking at some of the old portraits, not sure that's a positive occurance...}.

Still, the rules of Cold Reading are fairly simple, and easy to practice...

Maybe this WOO is TOO...

Never know.

.....RVM45

How much research does NLP do? 0.

I'm not too familiar with NLP but I've heard of them. It seems obvious, having a good, strong verbal repitoire will enhance your persuasive skills. Will you be able to have sex with 3 women a day? No. Appeal to Emotion (or penis).

Pantaz · 18th November 2009, 06:47 PM

FYI: Other NLP threads...

"NLP? - I wonder if you guys can help me with what I'm looking for."

"Yet more NLP BS"

"NLP...Is it woo?"

RVM45 · 19th November 2009, 02:41 PM

Well thanks guys.

For the record, I'm almost 53 years old; and fortunately my libido and desire to seduce anyone is minimal. I do like to understand things though.

My "Expert" was a dude with the charming (and almost certainly a Pen-Name) of "Dantelion Jones".

Downloaded a couple of his books off of a "Warez" site. Wondered if they were worth studying.

I've read that many Olde Tyme Shamans; Witch Doctors--whatever--went through a lengthy and exacting apprenticeship to learn all the "Tells" and "Pushes" that they had at their disposal {Add in some Folk Pharmacolgy; and some Sleight of Hand...}

Jones says that for his method to work, you must constantly monitor your Client; Shift tactics as necessary; and stay narrowly focused on achieving one Subliminal goal at a time, and never switch goals in mid-stream.

My thoughts were: #1 It is said that a bad plan executed with enthusiasm will generally beat good plans administered lacksadaisically; and almost always will beat no plan--regardless of how spiritedly the planless attack.

Perhaps giving the Clueless a general purpose outline to rally round will improve their attempts at Social Hacking considerably.

Then # 2--as Harry Lorrayne (the mneumonist) used to say, "Even if my techniques didn't work, they'd still work" i.e. forcing one to slow down and make special note of data, makes it at least somewhat easier to recall--even if a mneumonic technique is faulty.

Perhaps encouraging people to carefully observe both verbal cues, and non-verbal Tells...

Personally, I am a rather extreme case of "Verbal Literalist"--a condition that I've only found a triffle of data on. I understand that people lie; that people can even decieve by causing the truth to seem like a lie...

But basically, my default condition is to assume that Someone either tells the truth; or tells a lie hoping that it will be accepted as the truth. Using language imprecisely and obliquely; stating things Implicitly rather than Explicitly...

Well, I often miss it. Even when I catch an indirect hint, I'm annoyed beyond words, at the use of such a slippery devious thing.

And while I sometimes ponder about various Human Actions; most of the time, people bore me. The idea of constantly giving one's full attention to the people in one's immediate space strikes me as impressively tedious.

I also tend to talk to people with little or no eye contact; not looking their way at all, much of the time...

So like I theorize, teaching someone the radicle idea of studying the Goobers around him, if that had never fully occurred to him, might elevate his social hacking skills immensely--even with a flawed methodology.

I did like Mr Dandelion's assertion that words are far more important than non-verbals...

Not at alL sure that its right--but wish that it was...

.....RVM45

Zackman · 4th December 2009, 04:12 PM

As language is of such tantamount importance to our survival it makes sense that we can be so easily influenced (and therefore manipulated by what someone says. Derren Brown articulates this very well.
NLP is a rather cult-like movement with very little scientific backing. If you look on a database such as Psychinfo you can view the studies that have been conducted – mainly in psychology. Many of the techniques are found to be wanting. For example the tracking the “eye movements to access representational systems” has been shown to be BS.
My experience of dealing with people who are NLP practitioners (and yes I admit in a silly moment I did go on a couple of their courses many moons ago), whether they are using it as a therapy, for business and sales or in management they are attracted to it because of the claims made about how manipulative it can be. If you read the founder’s (Bandler and Grinder) books you see how manipulative and arrogant these people are. The talk is all about reprogramming peoples brains, mindreading peoples thought processes (if not the content of their thoughts), always to be “on step ahead”. Reframing is all about distorting someone’s ones thoughts to “achieve a better outcome”. It is no surprise that they took to a particularly subtle type of hypnosis (Milton Erikson) which aims to be highly manipulative.
I must say some of the techniques do seem interesting and it would be worth knowing more about it if there is anything to it: “Anchoring” is basically Pavlovian conditioning but the practitioners do seem to induce immediate emotional changes that might be useful. - whether that is just a placebo or a type of Hawthorn effect I don’t know. And whether there is any long term change that they claim is completely unknown.

17th November 2009, 12:44 PM	#1
RVM45 Student Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 42	Neuro-Linguistic Programming Guys, I,ve been busy,and have forgotten to come by for awhile... But when I sense someone may be trying to sell me a load of... er...well... I know where some of the best informed and skilled Debunkers dwell. Have you encountered this--well, I guess it an attempt to use certain word patterns for their {alleged} very strong; and fairly predictable effects of putting people under an unconcious form of Hypnotic Compulsion... They call it "Neuro-Linguistic Programming"; or "Mind Control Linguistic Patterns" The dude quotes Voltaire as saying that given ten minutes to get her mind off his ugly face, he could have seduced the Queen of France {Looking at some of the old portraits, not sure that's a positive occurance...}. Still, the rules of Cold Reading are fairly simple, and easy to practice... Maybe this WOO is TOO... Never know. .....RVM45
RVM45 Student Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 42

18th November 2009, 03:05 AM	#2
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092	Words have power. If I started this sentence with "Pay attention you fool", your nervous response to it would be quite different , because you would feel insulted. Merely by using words, I change the state of your nervous system, maybe half the planet away. It stands to reason that by tailoring and targeting what I say to known aspects of your psychology, I may be able to sway you in one direction or another. So much is obvious. People have been using language that way for ever. Giving it a fancy name and pretending to have quantified / systematised good old rhetoric doesn't add much that I can see.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092

18th November 2009, 05:32 PM	#3
UNLoVedRebel Hard Knocks Doctorate Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: School of Hard Knocks Posts: 2,572	Originally Posted by RVM45 Guys, I,ve been busy,and have forgotten to come by for awhile... But when I sense someone may be trying to sell me a load of... er...well... I know where some of the best informed and skilled Debunkers dwell. Have you encountered this--well, I guess it an attempt to use certain word patterns for their {alleged} very strong; and fairly predictable effects of putting people under an unconcious form of Hypnotic Compulsion... They call it "Neuro-Linguistic Programming"; or "Mind Control Linguistic Patterns" The dude quotes Voltaire as saying that given ten minutes to get her mind off his ugly face, he could have seduced the Queen of France {Looking at some of the old portraits, not sure that's a positive occurance...}. Still, the rules of Cold Reading are fairly simple, and easy to practice... Maybe this WOO is TOO... Never know. .....RVM45 How much research does NLP do? 0. I'm not too familiar with NLP but I've heard of them. It seems obvious, having a good, strong verbal repitoire will enhance your persuasive skills. Will you be able to have sex with 3 women a day? No. Appeal to Emotion (or penis).
	__________________ "I believe that a giant monster threw the planes at the towers," TheWeirdSkeptic. "Was the monster a female? I'm not really sure where my wife was that day." Homeland Insurgency

19th November 2009, 02:41 PM	#5
RVM45 Student Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 42	Well thanks guys. For the record, I'm almost 53 years old; and fortunately my libido and desire to seduce anyone is minimal. I do like to understand things though. My "Expert" was a dude with the charming (and almost certainly a Pen-Name) of "Dantelion Jones". Downloaded a couple of his books off of a "Warez" site. Wondered if they were worth studying. I've read that many Olde Tyme Shamans; Witch Doctors--whatever--went through a lengthy and exacting apprenticeship to learn all the "Tells" and "Pushes" that they had at their disposal {Add in some Folk Pharmacolgy; and some Sleight of Hand...} Jones says that for his method to work, you must constantly monitor your Client; Shift tactics as necessary; and stay narrowly focused on achieving one Subliminal goal at a time, and never switch goals in mid-stream. My thoughts were: #1 It is said that a bad plan executed with enthusiasm will generally beat good plans administered lacksadaisically; and almost always will beat no plan--regardless of how spiritedly the planless attack. Perhaps giving the Clueless a general purpose outline to rally round will improve their attempts at Social Hacking considerably. Then # 2--as Harry Lorrayne (the mneumonist) used to say, "Even if my techniques didn't work, they'd still work" i.e. forcing one to slow down and make special note of data, makes it at least somewhat easier to recall--even if a mneumonic technique is faulty. Perhaps encouraging people to carefully observe both verbal cues, and non-verbal Tells... Personally, I am a rather extreme case of "Verbal Literalist"--a condition that I've only found a triffle of data on. I understand that people lie; that people can even decieve by causing the truth to seem like a lie... But basically, my default condition is to assume that Someone either tells the truth; or tells a lie hoping that it will be accepted as the truth. Using language imprecisely and obliquely; stating things Implicitly rather than Explicitly... Well, I often miss it. Even when I catch an indirect hint, I'm annoyed beyond words, at the use of such a slippery devious thing. And while I sometimes ponder about various Human Actions; most of the time, people bore me. The idea of constantly giving one's full attention to the people in one's immediate space strikes me as impressively tedious. I also tend to talk to people with little or no eye contact; not looking their way at all, much of the time... So like I theorize, teaching someone the radicle idea of studying the Goobers around him, if that had never fully occurred to him, might elevate his social hacking skills immensely--even with a flawed methodology. I did like Mr Dandelion's assertion that words are far more important than non-verbals... Not at alL sure that its right--but wish that it was... .....RVM45
RVM45 Student Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 42

4th December 2009, 04:12 PM	#6
Zackman New Blood Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4	As language is of such tantamount importance to our survival it makes sense that we can be so easily influenced (and therefore manipulated by what someone says. Derren Brown articulates this very well. NLP is a rather cult-like movement with very little scientific backing. If you look on a database such as Psychinfo you can view the studies that have been conducted – mainly in psychology. Many of the techniques are found to be wanting. For example the tracking the “eye movements to access representational systems” has been shown to be BS. My experience of dealing with people who are NLP practitioners (and yes I admit in a silly moment I did go on a couple of their courses many moons ago), whether they are using it as a therapy, for business and sales or in management they are attracted to it because of the claims made about how manipulative it can be. If you read the founder’s (Bandler and Grinder) books you see how manipulative and arrogant these people are. The talk is all about reprogramming peoples brains, mindreading peoples thought processes (if not the content of their thoughts), always to be “on step ahead”. Reframing is all about distorting someone’s ones thoughts to “achieve a better outcome”. It is no surprise that they took to a particularly subtle type of hypnosis (Milton Erikson) which aims to be highly manipulative. I must say some of the techniques do seem interesting and it would be worth knowing more about it if there is anything to it: “Anchoring” is basically Pavlovian conditioning but the practitioners do seem to induce immediate emotional changes that might be useful. - whether that is just a placebo or a type of Hawthorn effect I don’t know. And whether there is any long term change that they claim is completely unknown.
Zackman New Blood Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4

18th November 2009, 06:47 PM	#4
Pantaz Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Van Nuys, CA Posts: 469	FYI: Other NLP threads... "NLP? - I wonder if you guys can help me with what I'm looking for." "Yet more NLP BS" "NLP...Is it woo?"