Engaging a xian friend in polite conversation

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 11:58 AM

I have a friend who was once a Minister for the United Church and is still very active in her church. She is a kind and gentle person who just recently revealed to me that she is now into Christian healing. She has a son who is epileptic and has stopped taking his medication now for 18 months and through prayer, she is claiming his seizures have stopped (has not had one in 6 months).

I did not comment on this revelation except for saying something like - that's nice and then muttered I am not a believer. I did not get into it any deeper than that.

I would very much love to get into more meaningful conversations with her, but not at the expense of a friendship. However, I think she may be the kind of person who would listen and engage in a conversation about faith. I would just like to ask her why she thinks the prayer is working - how would one go about engaging in that type of conversation politely?

Just an aside here, I received a phone call from another friend today telling me about breaking her ankle and says "pray to god that it heals" and then she says.."Oh, yeah you won't do that". I said...well, I might if you tell me which god you'd like me to pray to". We had a good laugh.

Darth Rotor · 19th November 2009, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Debaroo

I have a friend who was once a Minister for the United Church and is still very active in her church. She is a kind and gentle person who just recently revealed to me that she is now into Christian healing. She has a son who is epileptic and has stopped taking his medication now for 18 months and through prayer, she is claiming his seizures have stopped (has not had one in 6 months).

I did not comment on this revelation except for saying something like - that's nice and then muttered I am not a believer. I did not get into it any deeper than that.

I would very much love to get into more meaningful conversations with her, but not at the expense of a friendship. However, I think she may be the kind of person who would listen and engage in a conversation about faith. I would just like to ask her why she thinks the prayer is working - how would one go about engaging in that type of conversation politely?

Just an aside here, I received a phone call from another friend today telling me about breaking her ankle and says "pray to god that it heals" and then she says.."Oh, yeah you won't do that". I said...well, I might if you tell me which god you'd like me to pray to". We had a good laugh.

If you think your friend can take a line like this, my only recommendation is to offer something like the following:

You prayed for healing. God has already answered your prayers for healing by blessing some of your neighbors and friends with the aptitude and desire to become doctors, nurses, dentists, who heal you and others.

May not be worth raising.

DR

Sabrina · 19th November 2009, 01:20 PM

My sister is epileptic. For a very long time she was off her medication (weaned off in proper medical fashion mind you) and had no seizures. The problem is, a lot of factors can cause a relapse. My sister relapsed in college due to stress and was never quite able to get off the meds thereafter, although she has greatly reduced her meds and is not taking the harsher drugs for it (but she's also pregnant at the moment, and has suffered at least one seizure I'm aware of; due to her pregnancy she's on less effective meds). I'd suggest, if possible, proffering some figures on epileptic relapses due to normal stressors (i.e. schoolwork) and, as Darth said, indicating that "God" or whomever she believes in has inspired people all around her to help, if not heal her son, at least control his symptoms. I for one would be rather concerned if this were a friend of mine about potential harm to her son, not deliberately on her part, but that could still cause her to get in a lot of trouble if it were to be brought to the public's attention.

bluesjnr · 19th November 2009, 01:24 PM

You will probably find that the best opportunity is when she tells you the wee lad has had an other fit. I cannot see you shaking her faith but I would advise the feel, felt and found scenario.

1) How did your son having another fit make you feel when you thought that he was responding to your prayers?

2) A lot of people in your situation have felt the same.

3) They have found that there is still room for prayer but that to ensure their own peace of mind and the well being of the individual concerned seeking proper medical care and medication is vital. God has provided for you in this respect.

That's a very basic approach but you'll be able to adapt it to your own situation, should you care to.

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 01:25 PM

Sabrina (and others) note - the son is an adult (mid-30s), so this would be his decision.

Sabrina · 19th November 2009, 01:28 PM

Well that puts a different face on it. I was assuming this was a younger child.

There are cases where epilepsy goes into remission (my sister, once again, is an example; she was seizure free for at least ten, fifteen years), so if he's okay with being off his meds, more power to him, but I wouldn't be so quick to thank God for it. However, I'm not her, so if she wants to assign it to God, so be it.

I still would point out that it's possible to relapse though.

Mister Agenda · 19th November 2009, 01:47 PM

I had a similar problem...my father said he was going to go off his heart meds and use something that 'Cures Doctors Don't Want You to Know About' guy recommends. I sent an email to his preacher asking that he counsel my father about it. I don't know if the preacher helped or my dad didn't go through with it or he did but is fine anyway, but at least he's still alive. I don't want to bring it up again because if he is still taking his medicine he might stop just to be contrary.

bluesjnr · 19th November 2009, 01:47 PM

Totally different in that case. Not a lot you can do. He's old enough to be as stupid as he likes and if she wants to encourage him then I'd stay well clear.

HansMustermann · 19th November 2009, 02:30 PM

My take on religion and leaving people alone, as I may have mentioned before, is along the lines of:

A) Don't ask, don't tell. As long as they don't shove their religion in my face, they can jolly well keep it.

B) It's an armistice, or at least a two way street. If they expect me to respect their feelings on the subject matter, I expect nothing more and nothing less than the same in return.

C) Neither owns the whole world, but they are entitled to their own reservations. I don't go to their church to preach atheism, nor expect the priest to stop preaching when I come in, but similarly if they come to the atheists' table they can't expect everyone to shut up. If you don't want your feelings hurt, avoid the places where they _will_ be.

Basically in your friend's case, since whatever her son does is really his own decision, the question remains if she preaches. If she isn't, personally I'd leave her alone. A mention or two of her prayers are just human. More would get her a warning that there are subjects I'd rather avoid. If she still doesn't stop, all bets are off.

But then maybe that's just me.

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 02:40 PM

I agree that the decision is the sons - with a little help/encouragment from mom. However, what if this christian healing is being used on minors? I got the impression that she was involved in a group. No - she doesn't preach to me - she mentioned this in a course of a conversation. It may never even come up again.

Piscivore · 19th November 2009, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

If you think your friend can take a line like this, my only recommendation is to offer something like the following:

You prayed for healing. God has already answered your prayers for healing by blessing some of your neighbors and friends with the aptitude and desire to become doctors, nurses, dentists, who heal you and others.

DR

Yup.

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 02:49 PM

Darth and Piscivore - thanks, those are excellent responses.

Darat · 19th November 2009, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Debaroo

I have a friend who was once a Minister for the United Church and is still very active in her church. She is a kind and gentle person who just recently revealed to me that she is now into Christian healing. She has a son who is epileptic and has stopped taking his medication now for 18 months and through prayer, she is claiming his seizures have stopped (has not had one in 6 months)....snip...

I presume she has been trying her healing on her son? I would go along with Darth's suggestion, perhaps adding in something like a "Can't do any harm to also continue with the medical treatment as well can it?"

The problem you face in doing anything else is that she is likely to react to an argument against faith healing as being a personal attack on her - after all from what you have said it is unlikely that she does not believe in what she is doing.

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

I presume she has been trying her healing on her son? I would go along with Darth's suggestion, perhaps adding in something like a "Can't do any harm to also continue with the medical treatment as well can it?"

The problem you face in doing anything else is that she is likely to react to an argument against faith healing as being a personal attack on her - after all from what you have said it is unlikely that she does not believe in what she is doing.

That is the impression I came away with that the prayer is doing something. And she was so excited/hopeful when she told me. I don't know if I will ever engage her in a frank discussion.

Darat · 19th November 2009, 03:05 PM

Since her child is an adult I don't think you have anything like a moral duty to try and persuade her to change her mind.

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Since her child is an adult I don't think you have anything like a moral duty to try and persuade her to change her mind.

No, I am not wanting to change her mind - in my OP I was wondering how to engage in a polite conversation about this healing method - and perhaps just getting into belief in faith. I don't know about you, but I've found many people throw out their beliefs constantly in conversations - such as...thank god, I avoided that car crash, thank god, I got the correct medicine, etc. I don't think I've ever heard someone say ...thank science....(for whatever).

Darat · 19th November 2009, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Debaroo

No, I am not wanting to change her mind - in my OP I was wondering how to engage in a polite conversation about this healing method - and perhaps just getting into belief in faith. I don't know about you, but I've found many people throw out their beliefs constantly in conversations - such as...thank god, I avoided that car crash, thank god, I got the correct medicine, etc. I don't think I've ever heard someone say ...thank science....(for whatever).

I'm in the UK and while you will often hear phrases like "Thank God" they are usually just a phrase rather than an expression of belief. Indeed in my circle of acquaintances I only know of one "proper" Christian (and by that I mean someone who goes to Church and follows a dogma) - and she is a very pleasant and non-judgemental person who doesn't really mention her beliefs (she may mention she was speaking to such and such at church) and she has praised modern veterinary science for the treatment her dog has for his heart condition!

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 03:34 PM

So you are saying Darat, that when someone "thanks God" because they survived a car/airplane/ crash or pulled through some horrible medical problem, survived some horrible experience, it is only an expression?

This friend of mine (thank god :-o) does listen to her vet and gives her animals real medicine. I don't think she would deny her son medicine (or council him otherwise) should his seizures start again. I'm just curious about this prayer healing thing.

HansMustermann · 19th November 2009, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Debaroo

I agree that the decision is the sons - with a little help/encouragment from mom. However, what if this christian healing is being used on minors? I got the impression that she was involved in a group. No - she doesn't preach to me - she mentioned this in a course of a conversation. It may never even come up again.

Well, measure before you cut and all that. First establish _if_ it is used on minors, and by whom, before you come up with a response apropriate for that. IMHO.

HansMustermann · 19th November 2009, 03:40 PM

Well, "thank god" is probably just an expression in any language. Not the most fortunate choice of words, maybe, but ultimately just a way to convey a meaning. But it's only an expression if it is exactly phrased like that. Especially any more explicit about those thanks and it's no longer just an expression.

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 03:48 PM

OK - I may be derailing my own thread...but, accepting the "thank god" without questioning that god (which one) should be credited?

I actually had a side post in my OP about this - a friend "thanking god" and then saying to me..oh yeah you won't".

Is this not giving religion a free pass?

HansMustermann · 19th November 2009, 04:00 PM

In a sense it is, but then again there's nothing to be gained by being anal retentive about mere phrasing of a standard expression, unless you're sure that they literally mean giving thanks to God. There are plenty of other expressions like "jumping the shark", "breaking the ice", "stopping to smell the roses", etc, which aren't taken literally either, and you'd be making no friends if you asked back "which shark?"

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

In a sense it is, but then again there's nothing to be gained by being anal retentive about mere phrasing of a standard expression, unless you're sure that they literally mean giving thanks to God. There are plenty of other expressions like "jumping the shark", "breaking the ice", "stopping to smell the roses", etc, which aren't taken literally either, and you'd be making no friends if you asked back "which shark?"

Good point Hans. However...is there a dominant figure in those other expressions that one is actually praying to provide some kind of miracle?

Niggle · 19th November 2009, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Debaroo

Sabrina (and others) note - the son is an adult (mid-30s), so this would be his decision.

Um, if said son drives a car, it may NOT be his decision. In at least one case I know of, a woman lost her license when she was diagnosed with epilepsy and was unable to get it back until she had been seizure-free for something like a year AND had certification from her doctor that she was under treatment and on her meds for the condition.

Is it possible that said son has told Mom he's stopped taking his meds and is relying on her prayers to humor her? That he's actually still taking his meds and just not telling her so as not to upset her?

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Niggle

Um, if said son drives a car, it may NOT be his decision. In at least one case I know of, a woman lost her license when she was diagnosed with epilepsy and was unable to get it back until she had been seizure-free for something like a year AND had certification from her doctor that she was under treatment and on her meds for the condition.

Is it possible that said son has told Mom he's stopped taking his meds and is relying on her prayers to humor her? That he's actually still taking his meds and just not telling her so as not to upset her?

No - the son does not have a drivers license. I know that - he either takes public transit or his family drives him to his destination.

As for whether son is still taking meds. don't know.

bluesjnr · 19th November 2009, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Debaroo

I was wondering how to engage in a polite conversation

Clearly, as it turns out, something you have an issue with.

Soapy Sam · 19th November 2009, 06:08 PM

Nor should you know, with all respect. Whether he is on drugs isn't your, my or really his mother's affair.
That said we may all "wish him well", but that's just expressing general goodwill. We don't expect our wishes to actually affect his condition. It's like someone saying "Bless you" when you sneeze.- a meaningless formality. I've been known to say "Thank god" despite having been an atheist since I was seven.

Debaroo · 19th November 2009, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Clearly, as it turns out, something you have an issue with.

Well, not yet - since I've not engaged my friend in ths subject.

Darat · 20th November 2009, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by Niggle

Um, if said son drives a car, it may NOT be his decision.

...snip...

Yes and it can result not only in the driver killing other people but the driver being found guilty of murder: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/8366792.stm

HansMustermann · 20th November 2009, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Debaroo

Good point Hans. However...is there a dominant figure in those other expressions that one is actually praying to provide some kind of miracle?

The whole point is that probably 90% of those who say "thank god" don't actually expect any more miracle than the meaning "boy, I'm glad it turned out like that" being conveyed.

It's a bit unfortunate that some expressions involve a mythical sky-daddy, but they _are_ just expressions. They're just like any other arbitrary grouping of words that culture assigned an arbitrary meaning.

And what might at one point mean something religious, might mean something entirely mundane some centuries later. E.g., "seelie", meaning "holy" or "blessed", became "silly", in a fitting twist of linguistic poetic justice.

Anyway, there is no easy replacement for those expressions, that isn't unduly long, awkward sounding, or just fails to convey exactly the same meaning. I've been trying stuff like "thank the flying spaghetti monster" or "thank the elder gods" myself, but it just doesn't roll off the tongue that well. And it actually serves to derail the flow by drawing the attention to what would have otherwise been just a glorified interjection, and away from what I was actually trying to say.

Plus, technically speaking, they're not even as much praying as actively breaking the 2nd Commandment (by the Catholic and Lutheran counting) "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." It's the only commandment that carries the warning that God will never forgive _that_. You may brown nose your way out of adultery, theft, even murder, but not out of _that_

So, hey, I'm not gonna stop them from sinning against their sky daddy

westprog · 20th November 2009, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Debaroo

She has a son who is epileptic and has stopped taking his medication now for 18 months and through prayer, she is claiming his seizures have stopped (has not had one in 6 months).

Driver jailed for not taking epilepsy meds

Need to be careful about that kind of thing. If someone is epileptic and doesn't take their meds, they are potentially liable for any consequences. Probably doesn't apply in this case, but...

...in fact I see it doesn't apply in this case. Still worth noting.

Debaroo · 20th November 2009, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Anyway, there is no easy replacement for those expressions, that isn't unduly long, awkward sounding, or just fails to convey exactly the same meaning. I've been trying stuff like "thank the flying spaghetti monster" or "thank the elder gods" myself, but it just doesn't roll off the tongue that well. And it actually serves to derail the flow by drawing the attention to what would have otherwise been just a glorified interjection, and away from what I was actually trying to say.

Yeah you're correct. I have also tried to replace expressions with "thank science" with the same result.

Last of the Fraggles · 20th November 2009, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Debaroo

So you are saying Darat, that when someone "thanks God" because they survived a car/airplane/ crash or pulled through some horrible medical problem, survived some horrible experience, it is only an expression?

I use 'Thank God' all the time. I'm an atheist.

I would say 99.9999999% of times the phrase it used it does NOT refer to giving praise to an imaginary sky deity.

bluesjnr · 20th November 2009, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles

I use 'Thank God' all the time. I'm an atheist.

I would say 99.9999999% of times the phrase it used it does NOT refer to giving praise to an imaginary sky deity.

Whoops - slight derail but are you saying that 00.0000001% of the time you DO give praise to your imaginary sky deity?

If so, you are not 100% atheist.

Ausmerican · 20th November 2009, 07:02 PM

Debaroo, I was raised secular in a secular family. Never been religious.
Was diagnosed as epileptic at 13. Stopped taking my meds when I was 17.
Smoked Cheech's as well as Chong's share of weed tho and some things I have read say that epilepsy is one of the things pot is good for.
Haven't had a blackout or a seizure in 25 years.
Which in sum says more about how much we don't know about both epilepsy and the human brain than it says about anything else.
For instance, epilepsy is not known to be hereditary. BUT, my grandmother had it, my mother has it, then me.

Also my mother hasn't taken her meds for the last 15 years. Gave them up when she saw how much better I was off them than on them. She however, didn't smoke any weed so it wasn't that.
So your friends son may be fine forever. He may be fine for a decade and then fall down. Or he may seize next week.

And you will probably never be able to convince his mother that her god wasn't responsible for whatever length reprieve he has.

Darth & Piscivore give good advice tho.

Ausmerican · 20th November 2009, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Whoops - slight derail but are you saying that 00.0000001% of the time you DO give praise to your imaginary sky deity?

If so, you are not 100% atheist.

I think Fraggle was saying that was the percentage for the world in general not himself personally.

19th November 2009, 11:58 AM	#1
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	Engaging a xian friend in polite conversation I have a friend who was once a Minister for the United Church and is still very active in her church. She is a kind and gentle person who just recently revealed to me that she is now into Christian healing. She has a son who is epileptic and has stopped taking his medication now for 18 months and through prayer, she is claiming his seizures have stopped (has not had one in 6 months). I did not comment on this revelation except for saying something like - that's nice and then muttered I am not a believer. I did not get into it any deeper than that. I would very much love to get into more meaningful conversations with her, but not at the expense of a friendship. However, I think she may be the kind of person who would listen and engage in a conversation about faith. I would just like to ask her why she thinks the prayer is working - how would one go about engaging in that type of conversation politely? Just an aside here, I received a phone call from another friend today telling me about breaking her ankle and says "pray to god that it heals" and then she says.."Oh, yeah you won't do that". I said...well, I might if you tell me which god you'd like me to pray to". We had a good laugh.
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

19th November 2009, 01:05 PM	#2
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,819	Originally Posted by Debaroo I have a friend who was once a Minister for the United Church and is still very active in her church. She is a kind and gentle person who just recently revealed to me that she is now into Christian healing. She has a son who is epileptic and has stopped taking his medication now for 18 months and through prayer, she is claiming his seizures have stopped (has not had one in 6 months). I did not comment on this revelation except for saying something like - that's nice and then muttered I am not a believer. I did not get into it any deeper than that. I would very much love to get into more meaningful conversations with her, but not at the expense of a friendship. However, I think she may be the kind of person who would listen and engage in a conversation about faith. I would just like to ask her why she thinks the prayer is working - how would one go about engaging in that type of conversation politely? Just an aside here, I received a phone call from another friend today telling me about breaking her ankle and says "pray to god that it heals" and then she says.."Oh, yeah you won't do that". I said...well, I might if you tell me which god you'd like me to pray to". We had a good laugh. If you think your friend can take a line like this, my only recommendation is to offer something like the following: You prayed for healing. God has already answered your prayers for healing by blessing some of your neighbors and friends with the aptitude and desire to become doctors, nurses, dentists, who heal you and others. May not be worth raising. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

19th November 2009, 01:20 PM	#3
Sabrina Wicked Lovely Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spinning through space Posts: 2,608	My sister is epileptic. For a very long time she was off her medication (weaned off in proper medical fashion mind you) and had no seizures. The problem is, a lot of factors can cause a relapse. My sister relapsed in college due to stress and was never quite able to get off the meds thereafter, although she has greatly reduced her meds and is not taking the harsher drugs for it (but she's also pregnant at the moment, and has suffered at least one seizure I'm aware of; due to her pregnancy she's on less effective meds). I'd suggest, if possible, proffering some figures on epileptic relapses due to normal stressors (i.e. schoolwork) and, as Darth said, indicating that "God" or whomever she believes in has inspired people all around her to help, if not heal her son, at least control his symptoms. I for one would be rather concerned if this were a friend of mine about potential harm to her son, not deliberately on her part, but that could still cause her to get in a lot of trouble if it were to be brought to the public's attention.
	__________________ "Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is the right thing to do."-Justice Potter Stewart, US Supreme Court Justice 1915-1985 *Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons... for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.* *I'd kill you, but you might bleed on my shoes.*

19th November 2009, 01:24 PM	#4
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Not where I should be. Posts: 501	You will probably find that the best opportunity is when she tells you the wee lad has had an other fit. I cannot see you shaking her faith but I would advise the feel, felt and found scenario. 1) How did your son having another fit make you feel when you thought that he was responding to your prayers? 2) A lot of people in your situation have felt the same. 3) They have found that there is still room for prayer but that to ensure their own peace of mind and the well being of the individual concerned seeking proper medical care and medication is vital. God has provided for you in this respect. That's a very basic approach but you'll be able to adapt it to your own situation, should you care to.
	__________________ Belief is the death of intelligence. - Robert Anton Wilson Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Isaac Asimov He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams

19th November 2009, 01:25 PM	#5
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	Sabrina (and others) note - the son is an adult (mid-30s), so this would be his decision.
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

19th November 2009, 01:28 PM	#6
Sabrina Wicked Lovely Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spinning through space Posts: 2,608	Well that puts a different face on it. I was assuming this was a younger child. There are cases where epilepsy goes into remission (my sister, once again, is an example; she was seizure free for at least ten, fifteen years), so if he's okay with being off his meds, more power to him, but I wouldn't be so quick to thank God for it. However, I'm not her, so if she wants to assign it to God, so be it. I still would point out that it's possible to relapse though.
	__________________ "Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is the right thing to do."-Justice Potter Stewart, US Supreme Court Justice 1915-1985 *Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons... for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.* *I'd kill you, but you might bleed on my shoes.*

19th November 2009, 01:47 PM	#7
Mister Agenda Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 906	I had a similar problem...my father said he was going to go off his heart meds and use something that 'Cures Doctors Don't Want You to Know About' guy recommends. I sent an email to his preacher asking that he counsel my father about it. I don't know if the preacher helped or my dad didn't go through with it or he did but is fine anyway, but at least he's still alive. I don't want to bring it up again because if he is still taking his medicine he might stop just to be contrary.

19th November 2009, 02:30 PM	#9
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	My take on religion and leaving people alone, as I may have mentioned before, is along the lines of: A) Don't ask, don't tell. As long as they don't shove their religion in my face, they can jolly well keep it. B) It's an armistice, or at least a two way street. If they expect me to respect their feelings on the subject matter, I expect nothing more and nothing less than the same in return. C) Neither owns the whole world, but they are entitled to their own reservations. I don't go to their church to preach atheism, nor expect the priest to stop preaching when I come in, but similarly if they come to the atheists' table they can't expect everyone to shut up. If you don't want your feelings hurt, avoid the places where they _will_ be. Basically in your friend's case, since whatever her son does is really his own decision, the question remains if she preaches. If she isn't, personally I'd leave her alone. A mention or two of her prayers are just human. More would get her a warning that there are subjects I'd rather avoid. If she still doesn't stop, all bets are off. But then maybe that's just me.

19th November 2009, 02:40 PM	#10
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	I agree that the decision is the sons - with a little help/encouragment from mom. However, what if this christian healing is being used on minors? I got the impression that she was involved in a group. No - she doesn't preach to me - she mentioned this in a course of a conversation. It may never even come up again.
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

19th November 2009, 02:46 PM	#11
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Yubaba's Bathhouse Posts: 19,130	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor If you think your friend can take a line like this, my only recommendation is to offer something like the following: You prayed for healing. God has already answered your prayers for healing by blessing some of your neighbors and friends with the aptitude and desire to become doctors, nurses, dentists, who heal you and others. DR Yup.
	__________________ A brave man once requested me to answer questions that are key- "is it to be or not to be?"- and I replied "oh why ask me?" Does it get tiring to be correct about everything? - Francesca R ...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp. - CFLarsen

19th November 2009, 02:49 PM	#12
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	Darth and Piscivore - thanks, those are excellent responses.
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

19th November 2009, 02:51 PM	#13
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,712	Originally Posted by Debaroo I have a friend who was once a Minister for the United Church and is still very active in her church. She is a kind and gentle person who just recently revealed to me that she is now into Christian healing. She has a son who is epileptic and has stopped taking his medication now for 18 months and through prayer, she is claiming his seizures have stopped (has not had one in 6 months)....snip... I presume she has been trying her healing on her son? I would go along with Darth's suggestion, perhaps adding in something like a "Can't do any harm to also continue with the medical treatment as well can it?" The problem you face in doing anything else is that she is likely to react to an argument against faith healing as being a personal attack on her - after all from what you have said it is unlikely that she does not believe in what she is doing.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

19th November 2009, 03:01 PM	#14
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	Originally Posted by Darat I presume she has been trying her healing on her son? I would go along with Darth's suggestion, perhaps adding in something like a "Can't do any harm to also continue with the medical treatment as well can it?" The problem you face in doing anything else is that she is likely to react to an argument against faith healing as being a personal attack on her - after all from what you have said it is unlikely that she does not believe in what she is doing. That is the impression I came away with that the prayer is doing something. And she was so excited/hopeful when she told me. I don't know if I will ever engage her in a frank discussion.
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

19th November 2009, 03:05 PM	#15
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,712	Since her child is an adult I don't think you have anything like a moral duty to try and persuade her to change her mind.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

19th November 2009, 03:16 PM	#16
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	Originally Posted by Darat Since her child is an adult I don't think you have anything like a moral duty to try and persuade her to change her mind. No, I am not wanting to change her mind - in my OP I was wondering how to engage in a polite conversation about this healing method - and perhaps just getting into belief in faith. I don't know about you, but I've found many people throw out their beliefs constantly in conversations - such as...thank god, I avoided that car crash, thank god, I got the correct medicine, etc. I don't think I've ever heard someone say ...thank science....(for whatever).
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

19th November 2009, 03:24 PM	#17
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,712	Originally Posted by Debaroo No, I am not wanting to change her mind - in my OP I was wondering how to engage in a polite conversation about this healing method - and perhaps just getting into belief in faith. I don't know about you, but I've found many people throw out their beliefs constantly in conversations - such as...thank god, I avoided that car crash, thank god, I got the correct medicine, etc. I don't think I've ever heard someone say ...thank science....(for whatever). I'm in the UK and while you will often hear phrases like "Thank God" they are usually just a phrase rather than an expression of belief. Indeed in my circle of acquaintances I only know of one "proper" Christian (and by that I mean someone who goes to Church and follows a dogma) - and she is a very pleasant and non-judgemental person who doesn't really mention her beliefs (she may mention she was speaking to such and such at church) and she has praised modern veterinary science for the treatment her dog has for his heart condition!
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

19th November 2009, 03:34 PM	#18
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	So you are saying Darat, that when someone "thanks God" because they survived a car/airplane/ crash or pulled through some horrible medical problem, survived some horrible experience, it is only an expression? This friend of mine (thank god :-o) does listen to her vet and gives her animals real medicine. I don't think she would deny her son medicine (or council him otherwise) should his seizures start again. I'm just curious about this prayer healing thing.
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

19th November 2009, 03:35 PM	#19
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	Originally Posted by Debaroo I agree that the decision is the sons - with a little help/encouragment from mom. However, what if this christian healing is being used on minors? I got the impression that she was involved in a group. No - she doesn't preach to me - she mentioned this in a course of a conversation. It may never even come up again. Well, measure before you cut and all that. First establish _if_ it is used on minors, and by whom, before you come up with a response apropriate for that. IMHO.

19th November 2009, 03:40 PM	#20
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	Well, "thank god" is probably just an expression in any language. Not the most fortunate choice of words, maybe, but ultimately just a way to convey a meaning. But it's only an expression if it is exactly phrased like that. Especially any more explicit about those thanks and it's no longer just an expression.

19th November 2009, 03:48 PM	#21
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	OK - I may be derailing my own thread...but, accepting the "thank god" without questioning that god (which one) should be credited? I actually had a side post in my OP about this - a friend "thanking god" and then saying to me..oh yeah you won't". Is this not giving religion a free pass?
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile Last edited by Debaroo; 19th November 2009 at 03:50 PM.

19th November 2009, 04:00 PM	#22
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	In a sense it is, but then again there's nothing to be gained by being anal retentive about mere phrasing of a standard expression, unless you're sure that they literally mean giving thanks to God. There are plenty of other expressions like "jumping the shark", "breaking the ice", "stopping to smell the roses", etc, which aren't taken literally either, and you'd be making no friends if you asked back "which shark?"

19th November 2009, 04:08 PM	#23
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	Originally Posted by HansMustermann In a sense it is, but then again there's nothing to be gained by being anal retentive about mere phrasing of a standard expression, unless you're sure that they literally mean giving thanks to God. There are plenty of other expressions like "jumping the shark", "breaking the ice", "stopping to smell the roses", etc, which aren't taken literally either, and you'd be making no friends if you asked back "which shark?" Good point Hans. However...is there a dominant figure in those other expressions that one is actually praying to provide some kind of miracle?
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

19th November 2009, 05:33 PM	#24
Niggle Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Connecticut Posts: 307	Originally Posted by Debaroo Sabrina (and others) note - the son is an adult (mid-30s), so this would be his decision. Um, if said son drives a car, it may NOT be his decision. In at least one case I know of, a woman lost her license when she was diagnosed with epilepsy and was unable to get it back until she had been seizure-free for something like a year AND had certification from her doctor that she was under treatment and on her meds for the condition. Is it possible that said son has told Mom he's stopped taking his meds and is relying on her prayers to humor her? That he's actually still taking his meds and just not telling her so as not to upset her?
	__________________ Truth is where evidence comes from, not where belief leads to. - yy2bggggs You don't have to believe in god to believe in people. - Slingblade

19th November 2009, 05:48 PM	#25
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	Originally Posted by Niggle Um, if said son drives a car, it may NOT be his decision. In at least one case I know of, a woman lost her license when she was diagnosed with epilepsy and was unable to get it back until she had been seizure-free for something like a year AND had certification from her doctor that she was under treatment and on her meds for the condition. Is it possible that said son has told Mom he's stopped taking his meds and is relying on her prayers to humor her? That he's actually still taking his meds and just not telling her so as not to upset her? No - the son does not have a drivers license. I know that - he either takes public transit or his family drives him to his destination. As for whether son is still taking meds. don't know.
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

19th November 2009, 06:08 PM	#26
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Not where I should be. Posts: 501	Originally Posted by Debaroo I was wondering how to engage in a polite conversation Clearly, as it turns out, something you have an issue with.
	__________________ Belief is the death of intelligence. - Robert Anton Wilson Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Isaac Asimov He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams

19th November 2009, 06:08 PM	#27
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092	Nor should you know, with all respect. Whether he is on drugs isn't your, my or really his mother's affair. That said we may all "wish him well", but that's just expressing general goodwill. We don't expect our wishes to actually affect his condition. It's like someone saying "Bless you" when you sneeze.- a meaningless formality. I've been known to say "Thank god" despite having been an atheist since I was seven.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 18,092

19th November 2009, 07:02 PM	#28
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	Originally Posted by bluesjnr Clearly, as it turns out, something you have an issue with. Well, not yet - since I've not engaged my friend in ths subject.
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

20th November 2009, 01:39 AM	#29
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 47,712	Originally Posted by Niggle Um, if said son drives a car, it may NOT be his decision. ...snip... Yes and it can result not only in the driver killing other people but the driver being found guilty of murder: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/8366792.stm
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

20th November 2009, 02:35 AM	#30
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	Originally Posted by Debaroo Good point Hans. However...is there a dominant figure in those other expressions that one is actually praying to provide some kind of miracle? The whole point is that probably 90% of those who say "thank god" don't actually expect any more miracle than the meaning "boy, I'm glad it turned out like that" being conveyed. It's a bit unfortunate that some expressions involve a mythical sky-daddy, but they _are_ just expressions. They're just like any other arbitrary grouping of words that culture assigned an arbitrary meaning. And what might at one point mean something religious, might mean something entirely mundane some centuries later. E.g., "seelie", meaning "holy" or "blessed", became "silly", in a fitting twist of linguistic poetic justice. Anyway, there is no easy replacement for those expressions, that isn't unduly long, awkward sounding, or just fails to convey exactly the same meaning. I've been trying stuff like "thank the flying spaghetti monster" or "thank the elder gods" myself, but it just doesn't roll off the tongue that well. And it actually serves to derail the flow by drawing the attention to what would have otherwise been just a glorified interjection, and away from what I was actually trying to say. Plus, technically speaking, they're not even as much praying as actively breaking the 2nd Commandment (by the Catholic and Lutheran counting) "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." It's the only commandment that carries the warning that God will never forgive _that_. You may brown nose your way out of adultery, theft, even murder, but not out of _that_ So, hey, I'm not gonna stop them from sinning against their sky daddy

20th November 2009, 05:24 AM	#31
westprog Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,176	Originally Posted by Debaroo She has a son who is epileptic and has stopped taking his medication now for 18 months and through prayer, she is claiming his seizures have stopped (has not had one in 6 months). Driver jailed for not taking epilepsy meds Need to be careful about that kind of thing. If someone is epileptic and doesn't take their meds, they are potentially liable for any consequences. Probably doesn't apply in this case, but... ...in fact I see it doesn't apply in this case. Still worth noting.
westprog Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,176	__________________ "The use of anthropomorphic terms when dealing with computer systems is a sign of professional immaturity" -Edsger Dijkstra Last edited by westprog; 20th November 2009 at 05:30 AM.

20th November 2009, 07:40 AM	#32
Debaroo Hot Tub Hottie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Somewhere on the 3rd Meridian Posts: 442	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Anyway, there is no easy replacement for those expressions, that isn't unduly long, awkward sounding, or just fails to convey exactly the same meaning. I've been trying stuff like "thank the flying spaghetti monster" or "thank the elder gods" myself, but it just doesn't roll off the tongue that well. And it actually serves to derail the flow by drawing the attention to what would have otherwise been just a glorified interjection, and away from what I was actually trying to say. Yeah you're correct. I have also tried to replace expressions with "thank science" with the same result.
	__________________ Furthermore, to have a degree or degrees in biology and to still believe in Darwinian theory, shows ignorance in the worst degree. - Michael Aprile

20th November 2009, 07:49 AM	#33
Last of the Fraggles Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 471	Originally Posted by Debaroo So you are saying Darat, that when someone "thanks God" because they survived a car/airplane/ crash or pulled through some horrible medical problem, survived some horrible experience, it is only an expression? I use 'Thank God' all the time. I'm an atheist. I would say 99.9999999% of times the phrase it used it does NOT refer to giving praise to an imaginary sky deity.

20th November 2009, 05:37 PM	#34
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Not where I should be. Posts: 501	Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles I use 'Thank God' all the time. I'm an atheist. I would say 99.9999999% of times the phrase it used it does NOT refer to giving praise to an imaginary sky deity. Whoops - slight derail but are you saying that 00.0000001% of the time you DO give praise to your imaginary sky deity? If so, you are not 100% atheist.
	__________________ Belief is the death of intelligence. - Robert Anton Wilson Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Isaac Asimov He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams Last edited by bluesjnr; 20th November 2009 at 05:41 PM.

20th November 2009, 07:02 PM	#35
Ausmerican Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,532	Debaroo, I was raised secular in a secular family. Never been religious. Was diagnosed as epileptic at 13. Stopped taking my meds when I was 17. Smoked Cheech's as well as Chong's share of weed tho and some things I have read say that epilepsy is one of the things pot is good for. Haven't had a blackout or a seizure in 25 years. Which in sum says more about how much we don't know about both epilepsy and the human brain than it says about anything else. For instance, epilepsy is not known to be hereditary. BUT, my grandmother had it, my mother has it, then me. Also my mother hasn't taken her meds for the last 15 years. Gave them up when she saw how much better I was off them than on them. She however, didn't smoke any weed so it wasn't that. So your friends son may be fine forever. He may be fine for a decade and then fall down. Or he may seize next week. And you will probably never be able to convince his mother that her god wasn't responsible for whatever length reprieve he has. Darth & Piscivore give good advice tho.

20th November 2009, 07:03 PM	#36
Ausmerican Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,532	Originally Posted by bluesjnr Whoops - slight derail but are you saying that 00.0000001% of the time you DO give praise to your imaginary sky deity? If so, you are not 100% atheist. I think Fraggle was saying that was the percentage for the world in general not himself personally.