If the Earth had rings like Saturn.

JFrankA · 21st November 2009, 06:17 AM

I just came across this video (not on youtube, it's a link) in which an artist shows what it would look like if the Earth had rings like Saturn does, in proportion.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=75e_1258653471&p=1

It's very beautiful and what science he uses seems sound to me. I'm no expert so I'm wondering first off if his science is correct and would it possible to have the moon and rings or would that mess up our rotation or would the moon mess up the rings? (It would seem to me that they'd be pretty close to each other).

Anyway, it's beautiful and I wanted to share.

Enjoy.

Pure_Argent · 21st November 2009, 07:46 AM

Ooh, cool! I have no idea whether or not this is scientific at all, but cool!

rjh01 · 21st November 2009, 07:58 AM

Not looked at the link but the moon would upset the orbits of the rings rather quickly. The Earth is only planet with a moon anything like its own size.

shadron · 21st November 2009, 08:05 AM

Yes, I would think that the moon's gravity would disturb the rings hugely, especially where resonances were established. We have a much larger moon for the size of our planet (which size affects where the ring system can be) than Saturn, or any other planet, does. It doesn't seem to have too much effect on LEO satellites, but over millenia the disturbances would be amplified.

Besides, I believe that we are well on our way to establishing our own ring system of nuts, tool kits (http://newslite.tv/2008/11/26/space-...ible-from.html), rocket engines and paint flakes. More like a shell, really.

Denver · 21st November 2009, 08:15 AM

That's a great video. I wonder how much rings like that add to light pollution and mess up the viewing of the Milky Way at night. It also makes me wonder how rings would have influenced early religions.

JFrankA · 21st November 2009, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Denver

That's a great video. I wonder how much rings like that add to light pollution and mess up the viewing of the Milky Way at night. It also makes me wonder how rings would have influenced early religions.

I thought about the light pollution problem when I saw the picture of New York. I would assume that we wouldn't be able to see as many stars.

As to the early religions, that's a good question too.

jasonpatterson · 21st November 2009, 09:22 AM

Just imagine what it would have looked like following the collision that formed the moon.

Tubbythin · 21st November 2009, 09:41 AM

Much of the structure of the rings of Saturn are created by the moons of Saturn. The moons generally give small perturbations to the general motion off the ring constituents around Saturn that can lead to the gaps and to build up in quite narrow regions. By contrast moon/Earth ration is huge (as already noted) compared to the ratio of any of Saturn's moons and itself and this would stop any such ring formations persisting for extended periods.

ETA - Nice pictures though.

JoeTheJuggler · 21st November 2009, 10:58 AM

Also--FWIW--the artist's rendering shows the Earth rings substantially closer to the planet's surface than Saturn's are.

JFrankA · 21st November 2009, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Also--FWIW--the artist's rendering shows the Earth rings substantially closer to the planet's surface than Saturn's are.

I agree. With the picture of New York, it looked like the rings were closer to the ground than the top of the Empire State. That looked rather odd to me.

I think he scaled it down so that the ratio would be the same, but I'm not sure that even with that, the distance would be correct.

Bob Blaylock · 21st November 2009, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Not looked at the link but the moon would upset the orbits of the rings rather quickly. The Earth is only planet with a moon anything like its own size.

I was about to mention Pluto, when I remembered that it's no longer considered a planet. Pluto's largest moon, Charon, is so big relative to Pluto that the common barycenter is between them; and not, as with the Earth and its moon, within the main planet.

Ladewig · 21st November 2009, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Also--FWIW--the artist's rendering shows the Earth rings substantially closer to the planet's surface than Saturn's are.

I was concerned about that as well, but when I looked up the Roche limit, I saw thet the larger size of our moon would put the rings closer to Earth (at least I thinkit is that way; I could have it backwards).

CelticRose · 21st November 2009, 01:35 PM

What a cool video!

It's an interesting idea. Fodder for sci-fi authors.

I wonder how much light rings would create at night. It seems to me that in the latitudes where they appear the widest they would be a significant light source.

rjh01 · 21st November 2009, 01:52 PM

The Roche limit is the

Quote:

The smallest distance at which a natural satellite can orbit a celestial body without being torn apart by the larger body's gravitational force. The distance depends on the densities of the two bodies and the orbit of the satellite.

Now suppose something happened when the moon was created and instead the rings were created instead. Would that be possible? So the Earth had no large moon, just several very small ones to ensure that the rings stay in existence.

It can be difficult to tell how far away an unfamiliar object is.

21st November 2009, 06:17 AM	#1
JFrankA Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 2,327	If the Earth had rings like Saturn. I just came across this video (not on youtube, it's a link) in which an artist shows what it would look like if the Earth had rings like Saturn does, in proportion. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=75e_1258653471&p=1 It's very beautiful and what science he uses seems sound to me. I'm no expert so I'm wondering first off if his science is correct and would it possible to have the moon and rings or would that mess up our rotation or would the moon mess up the rings? (It would seem to me that they'd be pretty close to each other). Anyway, it's beautiful and I wanted to share. Enjoy.
	__________________ "No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai "We are all made of star-stuff." - Carl Sagan "Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." - unknown "More truth is in a single issue of Mad than a year of Time." - Gord in Toronto

21st November 2009, 07:46 AM	#2
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 3,819	Ooh, cool! I have no idea whether or not this is scientific at all, but cool!
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head." - Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

21st November 2009, 08:05 AM	#4
shadron Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 3,856	Yes, I would think that the moon's gravity would disturb the rings hugely, especially where resonances were established. We have a much larger moon for the size of our planet (which size affects where the ring system can be) than Saturn, or any other planet, does. It doesn't seem to have too much effect on LEO satellites, but over millenia the disturbances would be amplified. Besides, I believe that we are well on our way to establishing our own ring system of nuts, tool kits (http://newslite.tv/2008/11/26/space-...ible-from.html), rocket engines and paint flakes. More like a shell, really.
	Last edited by shadron; 21st November 2009 at 08:16 AM.

21st November 2009, 08:42 AM	#6
JFrankA Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 2,327	Originally Posted by Denver That's a great video. I wonder how much rings like that add to light pollution and mess up the viewing of the Milky Way at night. It also makes me wonder how rings would have influenced early religions. I thought about the light pollution problem when I saw the picture of New York. I would assume that we wouldn't be able to see as many stars. As to the early religions, that's a good question too.
	__________________ "No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai "We are all made of star-stuff." - Carl Sagan "Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." - unknown "More truth is in a single issue of Mad than a year of Time." - Gord in Toronto

21st November 2009, 09:22 AM	#7
jasonpatterson Philanthropic Misanthrope Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Macedonia, OH Posts: 908	Just imagine what it would have looked like following the collision that formed the moon.
	__________________ Sandra's seen a leprechaun, Eddie touched a troll, Laurie danced with witches once, Charlie found some goblins' gold. Donald heard a mermaid sing, Susie spied an elf, But all the magic I have known I've had to make myself. - Shel Silverstein

21st November 2009, 07:58 AM	#3
rjh01 Fire Warden Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 9,810	Not looked at the link but the moon would upset the orbits of the rings rather quickly. The Earth is only planet with a moon anything like its own size.

21st November 2009, 08:15 AM	#5
Denver Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 2,738	That's a great video. I wonder how much rings like that add to light pollution and mess up the viewing of the Milky Way at night. It also makes me wonder how rings would have influenced early religions.

21st November 2009, 09:41 AM	#8
Tubbythin Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,655	Much of the structure of the rings of Saturn are created by the moons of Saturn. The moons generally give small perturbations to the general motion off the ring constituents around Saturn that can lead to the gaps and to build up in quite narrow regions. By contrast moon/Earth ration is huge (as already noted) compared to the ratio of any of Saturn's moons and itself and this would stop any such ring formations persisting for extended periods. ETA - Nice pictures though.
	Last edited by Tubbythin; 21st November 2009 at 09:46 AM.

21st November 2009, 10:58 AM	#9
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 10,998	Also--FWIW--the artist's rendering shows the Earth rings substantially closer to the planet's surface than Saturn's are.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

21st November 2009, 11:29 AM	#10
JFrankA Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 2,327	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler Also--FWIW--the artist's rendering shows the Earth rings substantially closer to the planet's surface than Saturn's are. I agree. With the picture of New York, it looked like the rings were closer to the ground than the top of the Empire State. That looked rather odd to me. I think he scaled it down so that the ratio would be the same, but I'm not sure that even with that, the distance would be correct.
	__________________ "No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai "We are all made of star-stuff." - Carl Sagan "Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." - unknown "More truth is in a single issue of Mad than a year of Time." - Gord in Toronto

21st November 2009, 12:47 PM	#11
Bob Blaylock Forklift Operator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: N38°35' W121°29' Posts: 1,296	Originally Posted by rjh01 Not looked at the link but the moon would upset the orbits of the rings rather quickly. The Earth is only planet with a moon anything like its own size. I was about to mention Pluto, when I remembered that it's no longer considered a planet. Pluto's largest moon, Charon, is so big relative to Pluto that the common barycenter is between them; and not, as with the Earth and its moon, within the main planet.
	__________________ “Our enemies shall talk themselves to death and we will bury them with their own confusion.”

21st November 2009, 12:48 PM	#12
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,961	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler Also--FWIW--the artist's rendering shows the Earth rings substantially closer to the planet's surface than Saturn's are. I was concerned about that as well, but when I looked up the Roche limit, I saw thet the larger size of our moon would put the rings closer to Earth (at least I thinkit is that way; I could have it backwards).
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?"

21st November 2009, 01:35 PM	#13
CelticRose Muse Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 555	What a cool video! It's an interesting idea. Fodder for sci-fi authors. I wonder how much light rings would create at night. It seems to me that in the latitudes where they appear the widest they would be a significant light source.
	__________________ Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss I yam what I yam. - Popeye Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting

21st November 2009, 01:52 PM	#14
rjh01 Fire Warden Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 9,810	The Roche limit is the Quote: The smallest distance at which a natural satellite can orbit a celestial body without being torn apart by the larger body's gravitational force. The distance depends on the densities of the two bodies and the orbit of the satellite. Now suppose something happened when the moon was created and instead the rings were created instead. Would that be possible? So the Earth had no large moon, just several very small ones to ensure that the rings stay in existence. It can be difficult to tell how far away an unfamiliar object is.