Chavez defends "Carlos the Jackal," Idi Amin

Puppycow · 21st November 2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has defended jailed killer "Carlos the Jackal" and several world leaders he says are wrongly considered "bad guys".

In a speech to international socialist politicians, Mr Chavez said "Carlos", a Venezuelan, was not a terrorist but a key "revolutionary fighter".

He is serving a life sentence in France for murders committed in 1975.

Mr Chavez also hailed Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe, Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and the late Ugandan dictator Idi Amin.

Eddie Dane · 22nd November 2009, 09:14 AM

You blow up a few cafe's and throw a couple of hand grenades in to a metro or two and BOOM, everybody think you're a bad guy.

Thank god we have enlightened world leaders like Chavez to set the record straight.

WildCat · 22nd November 2009, 10:57 AM

I'm sure Childlike Empress and DC will be here shortly to make excuses for Hugo.

parky76 · 22nd November 2009, 10:58 AM

Um, Israelis honor their terrorists, so why can't Chavez honor his heros?

Matthew Best · 22nd November 2009, 01:58 PM

Because it's bad whoever does it?

XBoxWarrior · 22nd November 2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

In a speech to international socialist politicians, Mr Chavez said "Carlos", a Venezuelan, was not a terrorist but a key "revolutionary fighter".

Not unlike beauty, the definition of a terrorist is in the eye/politics of the beholder. I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism.

After all, he named it, "Shock and Awe".

I'm sure that Bin Laden thought, but didn't get the meme out on national TV, the same about his feat on 911...

I do, however believe, that Carlos was a terrorist.

corplinx · 22nd November 2009, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Anyone still want to defend this guy?

Why do you want to go to war with Venezuela Puppycow?

Normal Dude · 22nd November 2009, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

Um, Israelis honor their terrorists, so why can't Chavez honor his heros?

WTF does this have to do with Israel? This obsession of yours is unhealthy.

Pardalis · 22nd November 2009, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior

I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism.

We call them idiots.

Sporanox · 22nd November 2009, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior

Not unlike beauty, the definition of a terrorist is in the eye/politics of the beholder. I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism.

After all, he named it, "Shock and Awe".

I'm sure that Bin Laden thought, but didn't get the meme out on national TV, the same about his feat on 911...

I do, however believe, that Carlos was a terrorist.

Do you get your talking points from Hollywood or something?

parky76 · 22nd November 2009, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Normal Dude

WTF does this have to do with Israel? This obsession of yours is unhealthy.

but humorous.

Darth Rotor · 22nd November 2009, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

but humorous.

Nope. Carlos is probably mad at you already, conflating him with them Zionists and such.

You don't want to see him when he's angry ...

Skeptic · 22nd November 2009, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

I'm sure Childlike Empress and DC will be here shortly to make excuses for Hugo.

It's Bush's fault.

Skeptic · 22nd November 2009, 10:49 PM

I like the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter -- except for Bush and zionists, who really are terrorists" argument.

This really means "I support OBL and Hamas, the freedom fighters, in their war against the USA and Israel, the real terrorists", doesn't it?

Anyway, I wonder if this idiotic cliche -- accepted as gospel truth by the left, go figure -- applies to other fields.

Let's see:

1). One man's rapist is another man's enthusiastic lover.
2). One man's thief is another man's income redistributor.
3). One man's arsonist is another man's informal urban redesigner.

And, of course:

4). One man's terrorist murderer is another man's freedom fighter, as said above.

See? TOLD you that when I raped, robbed, and killed that woman and then burned the house down on her, I did nothing wrong. You're just looking at it the wrong way. You're not enlightened enough, that's your problem.

Ziggurat · 22nd November 2009, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior

I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism.

Well, yes, and there are a lot of really stupid people in the world as well. And more than a bit of overlap between those two sets - in fact, I'd say your group is a subset of mine. Are you an element of either set?

Quote:

After all, he named it, "Shock and Awe".

No he didn't. In fact, both the term and the doctrine it describes were formulated well before Bush even ran for President.

ponderingturtle · 23rd November 2009, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Nope. Carlos is probably mad at you already, conflating him with them Zionists and such.

You don't want to see him when he's angry ...

Why? He is a fat kid from an upper middle class background who lucked into some good press.

And there are plenty of terrorists who are not broadly condemed. The bombing of the King David hotel was one of the first modern acts of terror after all. And the french resistance fits well into definitions of terrorist as well.

lionking · 23rd November 2009, 04:49 AM

I'm looking forward to posts from Idi Amin apologists.

Darth Rotor · 23rd November 2009, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Why? He is a fat kid from an upper middle class background who lucked into some good press.

You talking about Chavez, or Carlos? Him being fat kid from upper middle class does not disqualify him as a killer.

Quote:

And the french resistance fits well into definitions of terrorist as well.

Yawohl, Gauleiter Ponderenschildkröte .

DR

commandlinegamer · 23rd November 2009, 07:12 AM

After being hunted for years, Carlos turned out to be pretty mediocre, nothing like he was portrayed by Robert Ludlum; suave, debonair and incredibly violent by turns. The real Carlos is just an overweight thug.

Darth Rotor · 23rd November 2009, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

After being hunted for years, Carlos turned out to be pretty mediocre, nothing like he was portrayed by Robert Ludlum; suave, debonair and incredibly violent by turns. The real Carlos is just an overweight thug.

Who killed people, right?

hgc · 23rd November 2009, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

And there are plenty of terrorists who are not broadly condemed. The bombing of the King David hotel was one of the first modern acts of terror after all. And the french resistance fits well into definitions of terrorist as well.

Uh, that's a little far-fetched ("one of the first"). Politically motivated bombings have been happening pretty regularly since the invention of ... bombs. There is nothing original or special about the King David Hotel bombing along this continuum.

Darth Rotor · 23rd November 2009, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by hgc

Uh, that's a little far-fetched ("one of the first"). Politically motivated bombings have been happening pretty regularly since the invention of ... bombs. There is nothing original or special about the King David Hotel bombing along this continuum.

If we are to believe his Wiki bio article, he was weaned on class struggle and Marxist/Leninist demagoguery. Obviously, his mother and father wanted to teach their children well.

His book (possible ghost written) is doubtless worth a read for the standard America bashers ...

Quote:

In it Carlos praises Osama bin Laden and the September 11 attacks and advocates Revolutionary Islam as a "new, post-Communist answer to what he calls US `totalitarianism`", telling readers "from now on terrorism is going to be more or less a daily part of the landscape of your rotting democracies."

He's probably right about that last bit, but then, that's been true, as was previously pointed out, since people got on to the idea of using bombs.

Guy Fawkes ...

ponderingturtle · 23rd November 2009, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

You talking about Chavez, or Carlos? Him being fat kid from upper middle class does not disqualify him as a killer.

Carlos. Sure he is a killer, but he is not the super terrorist he is portrayed to be in pop culture. He got lucky and got some good press.

Quote:

Yawohl, Gauleiter Ponderenschildkröte .

Hey, they fit many modern definitions of terrorists. I have seen clear definitions from the DOD of terrorist that fit the french resistance. When you define terrorist as any non state power using unconventional means you get lots of people defined as terrorist who you agree with.

I am not convinced that there is a hard and fixed definition that you can use to differentiate them and the insurgents in Iraq that targeted the US military. They were commonly branded as terrorists.

Darth Rotor · 23rd November 2009, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Carlos. Sure he is a killer, but he is not the super terrorist he is portrayed to be in pop culture. He got lucky and got some good press.

He got support and "a blind eye turned" from some Eastern bloc governments, and some Arab governments. That's a bit more than luck and good press. As to super terrorist, that's part of what the press does: create myths and legends. See sports journalism for the best examples of that, or looking at it in a different light. Chavez' movie production studio.

Quote:

I am not convinced that there is a hard and fixed definition that you can use to differentiate them and the insurgents in Iraq that targeted the US military. They were commonly branded as terrorists.

By whom?

ponderingturtle · 23rd November 2009, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

If we are to believe his Wiki bio article, he was weaned on class struggle and Marxist/Leninist demagoguery. Obviously, his mother and father wanted to teach their children well.

His book (possible ghost written) is doubtless worth a read for the standard America bashers ...

??? The king david bombing and Carlos are two different events. The first was bombing of a hotel by jewish terrorists to get the british to leave palestine.

And sure Carlos might have had marxist parents, but what is so suprising about middle class marxists?

Quote:

He's probably right about that last bit, but then, that's been true, as was previously pointed out, since people got on to the idea of using bombs.

Guy Fawkes ...

It was more about how terrorists use the media, so bombing as a media event not a bombing to primarily kill the people it bombs.

ponderingturtle · 23rd November 2009, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

He got support and "a blind eye turned" from some Eastern bloc governments, and some Arab governments. That's a bit more than luck and good press. As to super terrorist, that's part of what the press does: create myths and legends. See sports journalism for the best examples of that, or looking at it in a different light. Chavez' movie production studio.

Sure. It also served the countries he hit. It masks their mistakes my saying not that they made mistakes but that he is some super competent individual. He isn't he got lucky.

I don't respect him at all, but his immage and his fact are vastly different.

Quote:

By whom?

Media and some of the DOD defintions of terrorist. Not sure if they are sticking by the definition now of any non state actors who use non conventional techniques.

There was little effort to differentiate between say people using roadside bombs to attack military convoys, a perfectly legitimate military goal, and those who bombed mosques.

Darth Rotor · 23rd November 2009, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

??? The king david bombing and Carlos are two different events.

No kidding. That is why I ignored your first ref to it.

Quote:

And sure Carlos might have had marxist parents, but what is so suprising about middle class marxists?

Nothing.

Quote:

It was more about how terrorists use the media, so bombing as a media event not a bombing to primarily kill the people it bombs.

No, you do both, it's not an either or. It's a more effective media event when the blood flows. More dire. More grisly. More FEAR and TERROR inspiring. Terrorism, ya see.

Dr

ponderingturtle · 23rd November 2009, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

No, you do both, it's not an either or. It's a more effective media event when the blood flows. More dire. More grisly. More FEAR and TERROR inspiring. Terrorism, ya see.

Dr

Sure, but how much are the perpetrators of that bombing being considered as brutal murderous terrorists, and how much are they thought of as heroes? They certainly were never had to face trial.

theprestige · 23rd November 2009, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

but humorous.

We should be so lucky.

Darth Rotor · 23rd November 2009, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Sure, but how much are the perpetrators of that bombing being considered as brutal murderous terrorists, and how much are they thought of as heroes? They certainly were never had to face trial.

Carlos is a big hero in France, is he not?

ponderingturtle · 24th November 2009, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Carlos is a big hero in France, is he not?

That was not dirrected at Carlos as I suspect you knew.

Travis · 25th November 2009, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior

Not unlike beauty, the definition of a terrorist is in the eye/politics of the beholder.

Is there any ideology that you support that you would consider as so important that deliberately killing civilians is a reasonable means to achieve it? I can't think of any that I would.

Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior

I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism.

...and they would be wrong. Since Bush never explicitly asked for civilians to be killed and US policy never advocated it either.

Praktik · 25th November 2009, 10:44 AM

Right, but here's how someone like XboxWarrior would see it:

There was foreknowledge that civilians would be killed in bombing raids, through misidentification, bad intelligence, battlefield errors like getting trajectories wrong - etc.

So in that this knowledge was there, you could say that in some respects the US war policy in Iraq was logically going to kill civilians, ergo, Bush deliberately started something he knew would kill civilians.

And then he justified this cost as worth it.

While I may not agree with Xboxwarrior on much of what he says I can definitely say I don't think the cost was worth it, and there is some distance between the American people and the price paid by Iraqis for what was perceived as the American self-interest.

But that's another thread. This still is the kernel of truth under the "Bush = terrorist" claims, however jingoistic these appeals may be.

ponderingturtle · 25th November 2009, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Praktik

Right, but here's how someone like XboxWarrior would see it:

There was foreknowledge that civilians would be killed in bombing raids, through misidentification, bad intelligence, battlefield errors like getting trajectories wrong - etc.

Or willful intent like firebombing tokyo.

No one acted in an acceptable manner by modern standards in WWII.

Skeptic · 25th November 2009, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

No one acted in an acceptable manner by modern standards in WWII.

As far as I am concerned, the Red Army acted in a perfectly acceptable manner when it released my family members from Hitler's death camps.

Eddie Dane · 25th November 2009, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

As far as I am concerned, the Red Army acted in a perfectly acceptable manner when it released my family members from Hitler's death camps.

...and then arrested the just freed Russian POW's for treason and put them on a train to Siberia for some extra concentration camp fun.

Skeptic, they did good things. But no WWII party lives up to today's ethical standards.

Skeptic · 25th November 2009, 01:27 PM

I'm not saying they didn't do that. I'm just annoyed at the moral equivalency implied.

Praktik · 25th November 2009, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

...and then arrested the just freed Russian POW's for treason and put them on a train to Siberia for some extra concentration camp fun.

Skeptic, they did good things. But no WWII party lives up to today's ethical standards.

Indeed, one of the most jarring examples would be the allies leaving homosexuals in prison after the defeat of germany: "Well the Nazis were wrong about a lot of things, but at least they were right on that."

Just found out about that a few months ago and was shocked to hear that as others were given their freedom, homosexuals were left to serve out the remainder of their "sentences" handed down under Nazi persecution.

MikeMangum · 26th November 2009, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

Um, Israelis honor their terrorists, so why can't Chavez honor his heros?

After a few months on this forums, I've yet to see a single post from you that didn't reference Israel, Zionists, or Jews regardless of the topic of the thread.

You might want to consider the implications.

Grizzly Bear · 26th November 2009, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

You blow up a few cafe's and throw a couple of hand grenades in to a metro or two and BOOM, everybody think you're a bad guy.

Thank god we have enlightened world leaders like Chavez to set the record straight.

Well when he's doing nothing about the crime rates in his country he's definitely showing us all what "model citizenship" is all about.

21st November 2009, 09:11 PM	#1
Puppycow Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 6,323	Chavez defends "Carlos the Jackal," Idi Amin Anyone still want to defend this guy? Quote: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has defended jailed killer "Carlos the Jackal" and several world leaders he says are wrongly considered "bad guys". In a speech to international socialist politicians, Mr Chavez said "Carlos", a Venezuelan, was not a terrorist but a key "revolutionary fighter". He is serving a life sentence in France for murders committed in 1975. Mr Chavez also hailed Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe, Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and the late Ugandan dictator Idi Amin.
	__________________ I can't come to bed yet, honey. Someone on the Internet is wrong. -XKCD Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous Religions are God's way of telling us that He doesn't exist. -Pat Condell

22nd November 2009, 10:57 AM	#3
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 24,974	I'm sure Childlike Empress and DC will be here shortly to make excuses for Hugo.
	__________________ "My opinion is not uninformed there are just many things I have no clue about." -atavisms "Iran DOES have the right and good reason to attack Israel." -parky76

22nd November 2009, 10:58 AM	#4
parky76 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 15,493	Um, Israelis honor their terrorists, so why can't Chavez honor his heros?
	__________________ 9-11 Truther: "We don't need facts. We only need doubt."

22nd November 2009, 04:33 PM	#7
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,839	Originally Posted by Puppycow Anyone still want to defend this guy? Why do you want to go to war with Venezuela Puppycow?
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,839	__________________ Terribad Moderation Creates Stupibad Posting

22nd November 2009, 04:33 PM	#8
Normal Dude Space Shuttle Door Gunner Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: W/ The Evil Council Posts: 2,544	Originally Posted by parky76 Um, Israelis honor their terrorists, so why can't Chavez honor his heros? WTF does this have to do with Israel? This obsession of yours is unhealthy.
	__________________ Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics. "At some point, you just get past the horror of someone having these beliefs, and begin to enjoy the sheer comedy of it all." Complexity Last edited by Normal Dude; 22nd November 2009 at 04:37 PM.

22nd November 2009, 09:14 AM	#2
Eddie Dane Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,244	You blow up a few cafe's and throw a couple of hand grenades in to a metro or two and BOOM, everybody think you're a bad guy. Thank god we have enlightened world leaders like Chavez to set the record straight.

22nd November 2009, 01:58 PM	#5
Matthew Best Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 1,343	Because it's bad whoever does it?

22nd November 2009, 04:16 PM	#6
XBoxWarrior Muse Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Posts: 972	Quote: In a speech to international socialist politicians, Mr Chavez said "Carlos", a Venezuelan, was not a terrorist but a key "revolutionary fighter". Not unlike beauty, the definition of a terrorist is in the eye/politics of the beholder. I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism. After all, he named it, "Shock and Awe". I'm sure that Bin Laden thought, but didn't get the meme out on national TV, the same about his feat on 911... I do, however believe, that Carlos was a terrorist.

22nd November 2009, 04:35 PM	#9
Pardalis Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 19,185	Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism. We call them idiots.
	__________________ "It's much better to change your point of view in response to reality than to insist reality has got it wrong because it doesn't share your point of view." aggle-rithm "In reality, the most astonishingly incredible coincidence imaginable would be the complete absence of all coincidences." John Allen Paulos

22nd November 2009, 05:06 PM	#10
Sporanox Muse Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: in the black Posts: 837	Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior Not unlike beauty, the definition of a terrorist is in the eye/politics of the beholder. I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism. After all, he named it, "Shock and Awe". I'm sure that Bin Laden thought, but didn't get the meme out on national TV, the same about his feat on 911... I do, however believe, that Carlos was a terrorist. Do you get your talking points from Hollywood or something?
	__________________ A joke is a very serious thing. -Winston Churchill

22nd November 2009, 05:06 PM	#11
parky76 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 15,493	Originally Posted by Normal Dude WTF does this have to do with Israel? This obsession of yours is unhealthy. but humorous.
	__________________ 9-11 Truther: "We don't need facts. We only need doubt."

22nd November 2009, 09:45 PM	#12
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by parky76 but humorous. Nope. Carlos is probably mad at you already, conflating him with them Zionists and such. You don't want to see him when he's angry ...
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

22nd November 2009, 10:36 PM	#13
Skeptic Sum, ergo cogito Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 13,322	Originally Posted by WildCat I'm sure Childlike Empress and DC will be here shortly to make excuses for Hugo. It's Bush's fault.
	__________________ CNN, Fox, MSNBC are all terrible, all do the exact same thing: take news wire reports, add a bunch of unnecessary opinion, and then re-brand it as "infotainment" as if this were some sort of useful service. It is akin to paying me to read a newspaper to you, while interrupting frequently with my own opinion. -- Zaphod2016

22nd November 2009, 10:49 PM	#14
Skeptic Sum, ergo cogito Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 13,322	I like the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter -- except for Bush and zionists, who really are terrorists" argument. This really means "I support OBL and Hamas, the freedom fighters, in their war against the USA and Israel, the real terrorists", doesn't it? Anyway, I wonder if this idiotic cliche -- accepted as gospel truth by the left, go figure -- applies to other fields. Let's see: 1). One man's rapist is another man's enthusiastic lover. 2). One man's thief is another man's income redistributor. 3). One man's arsonist is another man's informal urban redesigner. And, of course: 4). One man's terrorist murderer is another man's freedom fighter, as said above. See? TOLD you that when I raped, robbed, and killed that woman and then burned the house down on her, I did nothing wrong. You're just looking at it the wrong way. You're not enlightened enough, that's your problem.
	__________________ CNN, Fox, MSNBC are all terrible, all do the exact same thing: take news wire reports, add a bunch of unnecessary opinion, and then re-brand it as "infotainment" as if this were some sort of useful service. It is akin to paying me to read a newspaper to you, while interrupting frequently with my own opinion. -- Zaphod2016

22nd November 2009, 11:30 PM	#15
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 13,873	Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism. Well, yes, and there are a lot of really stupid people in the world as well. And more than a bit of overlap between those two sets - in fact, I'd say your group is a subset of mine. Are you an element of either set? Quote: After all, he named it, "Shock and Awe". No he didn't. In fact, both the term and the doctrine it describes were formulated well before Bush even ran for President.
	__________________ "There is certainly not one government in Europe but is now watching the war in this country, with the ardent prayer that the united States may be effectually split, crippled, and dismember'd by it... We are all too prone to wander from ourselves, to affect Europe, and watch her frowns and smiles. We need this hot lesson of general hatred, and henceforth must never forget it. Never again will we trust the moral sense nor abstract friendliness of a single government of the world." - Walt Whitman, 1864

23rd November 2009, 04:43 AM	#16
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,768	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Nope. Carlos is probably mad at you already, conflating him with them Zionists and such. You don't want to see him when he's angry ... Why? He is a fat kid from an upper middle class background who lucked into some good press. And there are plenty of terrorists who are not broadly condemed. The bombing of the King David hotel was one of the first modern acts of terror after all. And the french resistance fits well into definitions of terrorist as well.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

23rd November 2009, 04:49 AM	#17
lionking Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 12,135	I'm looking forward to posts from Idi Amin apologists.
	__________________ You must believe in free will; there is no choice. Isaac Bashevis Singer

23rd November 2009, 07:08 AM	#18
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Why? He is a fat kid from an upper middle class background who lucked into some good press. You talking about Chavez, or Carlos? Him being fat kid from upper middle class does not disqualify him as a killer. Quote: And the french resistance fits well into definitions of terrorist as well. Yawohl, Gauleiter Ponderenschildkröte . DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon Last edited by Darth Rotor; 23rd November 2009 at 07:10 AM.

23rd November 2009, 07:12 AM	#19
commandlinegamer Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 816	After being hunted for years, Carlos turned out to be pretty mediocre, nothing like he was portrayed by Robert Ludlum; suave, debonair and incredibly violent by turns. The real Carlos is just an overweight thug.

23rd November 2009, 07:27 AM	#20
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by commandlinegamer After being hunted for years, Carlos turned out to be pretty mediocre, nothing like he was portrayed by Robert Ludlum; suave, debonair and incredibly violent by turns. The real Carlos is just an overweight thug. Who killed people, right?
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

23rd November 2009, 07:46 AM	#21
hgc Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 9,013	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle And there are plenty of terrorists who are not broadly condemed. The bombing of the King David hotel was one of the first modern acts of terror after all. And the french resistance fits well into definitions of terrorist as well. Uh, that's a little far-fetched ("one of the first"). Politically motivated bombings have been happening pretty regularly since the invention of ... bombs. There is nothing original or special about the King David Hotel bombing along this continuum.
hgc Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 9,013	__________________ "Swine breath is an atmosphere stabilizer." - PA, The Village

23rd November 2009, 07:59 AM	#22
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by hgc Uh, that's a little far-fetched ("one of the first"). Politically motivated bombings have been happening pretty regularly since the invention of ... bombs. There is nothing original or special about the King David Hotel bombing along this continuum. If we are to believe his Wiki bio article, he was weaned on class struggle and Marxist/Leninist demagoguery. Obviously, his mother and father wanted to teach their children well. His book (possible ghost written) is doubtless worth a read for the standard America bashers ... Quote: In it Carlos praises Osama bin Laden and the September 11 attacks and advocates Revolutionary Islam as a "new, post-Communist answer to what he calls US `totalitarianism`", telling readers "from now on terrorism is going to be more or less a daily part of the landscape of your rotting democracies." He's probably right about that last bit, but then, that's been true, as was previously pointed out, since people got on to the idea of using bombs. Guy Fawkes ...
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

23rd November 2009, 07:59 AM	#23
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,768	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor You talking about Chavez, or Carlos? Him being fat kid from upper middle class does not disqualify him as a killer. Carlos. Sure he is a killer, but he is not the super terrorist he is portrayed to be in pop culture. He got lucky and got some good press. Quote: Yawohl, Gauleiter Ponderenschildkröte . Hey, they fit many modern definitions of terrorists. I have seen clear definitions from the DOD of terrorist that fit the french resistance. When you define terrorist as any non state power using unconventional means you get lots of people defined as terrorist who you agree with. I am not convinced that there is a hard and fixed definition that you can use to differentiate them and the insurgents in Iraq that targeted the US military. They were commonly branded as terrorists.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

23rd November 2009, 08:03 AM	#24
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Carlos. Sure he is a killer, but he is not the super terrorist he is portrayed to be in pop culture. He got lucky and got some good press. He got support and "a blind eye turned" from some Eastern bloc governments, and some Arab governments. That's a bit more than luck and good press. As to super terrorist, that's part of what the press does: create myths and legends. See sports journalism for the best examples of that, or looking at it in a different light. Chavez' movie production studio. Quote: I am not convinced that there is a hard and fixed definition that you can use to differentiate them and the insurgents in Iraq that targeted the US military. They were commonly branded as terrorists. By whom?
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

23rd November 2009, 08:04 AM	#25
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,768	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor If we are to believe his Wiki bio article, he was weaned on class struggle and Marxist/Leninist demagoguery. Obviously, his mother and father wanted to teach their children well. His book (possible ghost written) is doubtless worth a read for the standard America bashers ... ??? The king david bombing and Carlos are two different events. The first was bombing of a hotel by jewish terrorists to get the british to leave palestine. And sure Carlos might have had marxist parents, but what is so suprising about middle class marxists? Quote: He's probably right about that last bit, but then, that's been true, as was previously pointed out, since people got on to the idea of using bombs. Guy Fawkes ... It was more about how terrorists use the media, so bombing as a media event not a bombing to primarily kill the people it bombs.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

23rd November 2009, 08:09 AM	#26
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,768	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor He got support and "a blind eye turned" from some Eastern bloc governments, and some Arab governments. That's a bit more than luck and good press. As to super terrorist, that's part of what the press does: create myths and legends. See sports journalism for the best examples of that, or looking at it in a different light. Chavez' movie production studio. Sure. It also served the countries he hit. It masks their mistakes my saying not that they made mistakes but that he is some super competent individual. He isn't he got lucky. I don't respect him at all, but his immage and his fact are vastly different. Quote: By whom? Media and some of the DOD defintions of terrorist. Not sure if they are sticking by the definition now of any non state actors who use non conventional techniques. There was little effort to differentiate between say people using roadside bombs to attack military convoys, a perfectly legitimate military goal, and those who bombed mosques.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

23rd November 2009, 08:15 AM	#27
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle ??? The king david bombing and Carlos are two different events. No kidding. That is why I ignored your first ref to it. Quote: And sure Carlos might have had marxist parents, but what is so suprising about middle class marxists? Nothing. Quote: It was more about how terrorists use the media, so bombing as a media event not a bombing to primarily kill the people it bombs. No, you do both, it's not an either or. It's a more effective media event when the blood flows. More dire. More grisly. More FEAR and TERROR inspiring. Terrorism, ya see. Dr
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

23rd November 2009, 08:22 AM	#28
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,768	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor No, you do both, it's not an either or. It's a more effective media event when the blood flows. More dire. More grisly. More FEAR and TERROR inspiring. Terrorism, ya see. Dr Sure, but how much are the perpetrators of that bombing being considered as brutal murderous terrorists, and how much are they thought of as heroes? They certainly were never had to face trial.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

23rd November 2009, 01:56 PM	#29
theprestige Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,096	Originally Posted by parky76 but humorous. We should be so lucky.

23rd November 2009, 03:01 PM	#30
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Sure, but how much are the perpetrators of that bombing being considered as brutal murderous terrorists, and how much are they thought of as heroes? They certainly were never had to face trial. Carlos is a big hero in France, is he not?
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

24th November 2009, 06:31 AM	#31
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,768	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Carlos is a big hero in France, is he not? That was not dirrected at Carlos as I suspect you knew.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

25th November 2009, 10:27 AM	#32
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 6,834	Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior Not unlike beauty, the definition of a terrorist is in the eye/politics of the beholder. Is there any ideology that you support that you would consider as so important that deliberately killing civilians is a reasonable means to achieve it? I can't think of any that I would. Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism. ...and they would be wrong. Since Bush never explicitly asked for civilians to be killed and US policy never advocated it either.
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25th November 2009, 10:44 AM	#33
Praktik Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,804	Right, but here's how someone like XboxWarrior would see it: There was foreknowledge that civilians would be killed in bombing raids, through misidentification, bad intelligence, battlefield errors like getting trajectories wrong - etc. So in that this knowledge was there, you could say that in some respects the US war policy in Iraq was logically going to kill civilians, ergo, Bush deliberately started something he knew would kill civilians. And then he justified this cost as worth it. While I may not agree with Xboxwarrior on much of what he says I can definitely say I don't think the cost was worth it, and there is some distance between the American people and the price paid by Iraqis for what was perceived as the American self-interest. But that's another thread. This still is the kernel of truth under the "Bush = terrorist" claims, however jingoistic these appeals may be.
Praktik Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,804	__________________ "It must be very strange to be President Bush. A man of extraordinary vision and brilliance approaching to genius, he can't get anyone to notice. He is like a great painter or musician who is ahead of his time, and who unveils one masterpiece after another to a reception that, when not bored, is hostile." - John Hinderaker, Powerline

25th November 2009, 10:53 AM	#34
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 18,768	Originally Posted by Praktik Right, but here's how someone like XboxWarrior would see it: There was foreknowledge that civilians would be killed in bombing raids, through misidentification, bad intelligence, battlefield errors like getting trajectories wrong - etc. Or willful intent like firebombing tokyo. No one acted in an acceptable manner by modern standards in WWII.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

25th November 2009, 12:12 PM	#35
Skeptic Sum, ergo cogito Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 13,322	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle No one acted in an acceptable manner by modern standards in WWII. As far as I am concerned, the Red Army acted in a perfectly acceptable manner when it released my family members from Hitler's death camps.
	__________________ CNN, Fox, MSNBC are all terrible, all do the exact same thing: take news wire reports, add a bunch of unnecessary opinion, and then re-brand it as "infotainment" as if this were some sort of useful service. It is akin to paying me to read a newspaper to you, while interrupting frequently with my own opinion. -- Zaphod2016