My prayer to YHWH

ORUgrad · 22nd November 2009, 10:14 PM

Sorry if this appears too graphic for the worshipers of YHWH. I have a little girl. And stories like this get my blood boiling a bit. I sent this to a Christian friend who will respond back with something like "God will make it all right in the end."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...:b29006816:z10

Dear YHWH, we know you had a thing about torturing and killing children and babies in ancient times- especially children and babies who were not a part of your chosen race. And I know this little girl suffers from the "sin of Ham" and such but I was just wondering if there was another reason why you place the free will of a murderer above the life of this child? Would it be so much to ask for you to spare her life and possibly give the murderer a heart attack? Oops. What am I saying, she is already dead! I'm sure you would have done just that if I had simply prayed in time. Or maybe not.

I'm sure, because you are an all loving perfect being, that you must have eased her suffering while this psychotic pedophile raped this innocent child before suffocating the life out of her. Right? RIGHT? Do you watch it happen? I suppose you don't have a choice as you see everything, right? I was just hoping that after thousands of years of butchering kids or "allowing" them to be slaughtered, that you might have softened up a little bit? What is the point of "saving" one child miraculously from a killer if you are going to withhold that salvation from others? How do you determine who gets killed and who doesn't? How do you decide who gets to live and who gets raped and tortured? I'm sure that almost everyone on the planet unless they were completely psychotic would have tried to save this little girl had they been there to witness the attack. How is it then, that your created beings have overwhelmingly more grace than you, the creator? I mean, isn't silence and non action functionally the same as consent and approval? If your actions in not helping this girl are the same as the non action of a psychopath in not helping this girl, what does that make you? I'll betcha if you let me in on your big mysterious plan and will, I just might be able to comprehend it. Cause really, your silence kinda makes you look like a freakin douchebag.

AMEN

HansMustermann · 23rd November 2009, 03:21 AM

Actually, that part has sadly already been covered under "free will." See, God allows such stuff to exist, because if he prevented it, he'd be denying the rapist his free will.

I'm not sure what kind of a deranged idiot would consider the free will of about 1% of the population to be more important than the protection of the 99% innocents, but there you go. That's the kind of God we have

So I doubt that it would be giving any true believer pause for thought.

devnull · 23rd November 2009, 04:01 AM

Its a terrible story, but why are you praying to a non-existent entity?

Marduk · 23rd November 2009, 04:27 AM

more to the point by naming and shaming YHWH, you are placing the blame specifically at the door of Judaism and not as is more likely considering the area of the crime Jehova.

CriticalSock · 23rd November 2009, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

That's the kind of God we have

No we don't!

Mr Clingford · 23rd November 2009, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by devnull

Its a terrible story, but why are you praying to a non-existent entity?

This is a reasonable question. Surely you are angry with some Xtians (to assume) in particular? Why?

Cainkane1 · 23rd November 2009, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by devnull

Its a terrible story, but why are you praying to a non-existent entity?

He's being facetious?

Ysidro · 23rd November 2009, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Clingford

This is a reasonable question. Surely you are angry with some Xtians (to assume) in particular? Why?

Why assume anger has anything to do with it? That's just a red herring.

Mmm, herring....

ORUgrad · 23rd November 2009, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by devnull

Its a terrible story, but why are you praying to a non-existent entity?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=156589

The above post is my history here. I am a former fundie. The "prayer" above is written in the spirit of satire from my perspective now- and is completely honest and real from my perspective 10 years ago when I was deconverting. Honest questions are not appreciated in the tradition I was in.

Mr Clingford · 23rd November 2009, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=156589

The above post is my history here. I am a former fundie. The "prayer" above is written in the spirit of satire from my perspective now- and is completely honest and real from my perspective 10 years ago when I was deconverting. Honest questions are not appreciated in the tradition I was in.

Ah, if only you had typed "Sorry if this appears too graphic for the fundie worshippers of YHWH like I used to be" instead of "Sorry if this appears too graphic for the worshipers of YHWH" which you actually wrote.

ORUgrad · 23rd November 2009, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

more to the point by naming and shaming YHWH, you are placing the blame specifically at the door of Judaism and not as is more likely considering the area of the crime Jehova.

Hi Marduk! Actually, we could certainly have a discussion as to whether YHWH, Jehovah, or Elohim were different deities in the OT. However, Christians see all of these as one and the same "God". So for practical purposes, YHWH will do. YHWH and Jehovah are derived from the same Hebrew word. YeHoWaH or YaHWeH.

Marduk · 23rd November 2009, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Hi Marduk! Actually, we could certainly have a discussion as to whether YHWH, Jehovah, or Elohim were different deities in the OT.

nah, its been done to death already.

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

However, Christians see all of these as one and the same "God". So for practical purposes, YHWH will do. YHWH and Jehovah are derived from the same Hebrew word. YeHoWaH or YaHWeH.

christians might indeed see YHWH and Jehovah as the same God, but you can bet your ass that the Hebrews don't. Using the Hebrew spelling and not the christian one does point your prayer directly at Jewish theology, which of course isn't at all responsible for this for several reasons I could mention, none of which are better than devnull's

ORUgrad · 23rd November 2009, 08:14 AM

Marduk, are you Jewish?

This is definitely Christian theology as well.

Marduk · 23rd November 2009, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

Marduk, are you Jewish?

This is definitely Christian theology as well.

Marduk is probably one of the most reviled names in Judaism, what you think ?

I think your missing my point,
any hebrew reading your post is not going to be thinking about xtians, hes going to be wondering why you have it in for the Hebrew God, rather than Allah or Christianity, true from the outside the fact that they are all monotheistic religions seems to connect them as the same, but to a Hebrew worshipping Allah is sacriligeous in the same way that to a moslem worshipping Jehovah is the worst kind of heresy. The names YHWH and Jehovah are religion specific no matter that they share the same etymology

surely it would have been simpler to just say "God" rather than "YHWH" or "Jehovah", that way you avoid upsetting anyone specific except himself

Darth Rotor · 23rd November 2009, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

Marduk is probably one of the most reviled names in Judaism, what you think ?

I think your missing my point,
any hebrew reading your post is not going to be thinking about xtians, hes going to be wondering why you have it in for the Hebrew God, rather than Allah or Christianity, true from the outside the fact that they are all monotheistic religions seems to connect them as the same, but to a Hebrew worshipping Allah is sacriligeous in the same way that to a moslem worshipping Jehovah is the worst kind of heresy. The names YHWH and Jehovah are religion specific no matter that they share the same etymology

surely it would have been simpler to just say "God" rather than "YHWH" or "Jehovah", that way you avoid upsetting anyone specific except himself

Why should Jews get a free pass on YHWH?

commandlinegamer · 23rd November 2009, 08:29 AM

Will I go to hell if I say that everytime I see YHWH written now, it translates as Your Mileage May Vary?

Darth Rotor · 23rd November 2009, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

Will I go to hell if I say that everytime I see YHWH written now, it translates as Your Mileage May Vary?

How about "Your Head Will Hurt" as a better translation?

Marduk · 23rd November 2009, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Why should Jews get a free pass on YHWH?

thats the wrong question
a more appropriate one would be
why should they be singled out for this murder committed by a christian ?

Beerina · 23rd November 2009, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Actually, that part has sadly already been covered under "free will." See, God allows such stuff to exist, because if he prevented it, he'd be denying the rapist his free will.

I'm not sure what kind of a deranged idiot would consider the free will of about 1% of the population to be more important than the protection of the 99% innocents, but there you go. That's the kind of God we have

So I doubt that it would be giving any true believer pause for thought.

I am also not sure what kind of a deranged idiot would consider that it requires the presence of real children experiencing being raped and murdered to give a murderer a chance to fully express himself.

In the unlikely event that such were true, wouldn't automatons serve the purpose just as well? The rapist has no clue they aren't real. And what's the point if God knows it's gonna happen with 100% certainty anyway? Or, gag, could but chooses not to?

This fact alone disproves the idea of an omnipotent and kind god.

The Atheist · 23rd November 2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

AMEN

"Too stupid" rather than "too graphic".

"Thanks", says Mr Clingford.

Originally Posted by Mr Clingford

Ah, if only you had typed "Sorry if this appears too graphic for the fundie worshippers of YHWH like I used to be" instead of "Sorry if this appears too graphic for the worshipers of YHWH" which you actually wrote.

Smashing a winner off a mis-hit lob.

Too easy.

Ethnikos · 24th November 2009, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by ORUgrad

. . .Cause really, your silence kinda makes you look like a freakin douchebag. . .

Have you protested the American empirialist wars today? No? that kind of makes you look like a doucebag. Silent about Predator drones launching missiles at wedding parties, and torture centers for extracting information from people who should be left alone in their own damn country? You do know that you will be judged by how you judge others, including the god appointed to this world?

Safe-Keeper · 24th November 2009, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Actually, that part has sadly already been covered under "free will." See, God allows such stuff to exist, because if he prevented it, he'd be denying the rapist his free will.

I'm not sure what kind of a deranged idiot would consider the free will of about 1% of the population to be more important than the protection of the 99% innocents, but there you go. That's the kind of God we have

So I doubt that it would be giving any true believer pause for thought.

Indeed. When you think about it, it's exactly like how all Christians are anarchists who wish for police to be disbanded, because it'd be so dreadful if a rapist was kept from abusing and murdering a five-year old girl.

Oh, waitaminute. They don't.

ETA: Oh, and don't get me started about how He could've saved us a lot of trouble by just not creating us that way in the first place.

Quote:

Have you protested the American empirialist wars today? No? that kind of makes you look like a doucebag.

Oh, right, forgot about that one. "You aren't doing enough by some arbitrary definition, therefore God can sit back and do nothing".

"...and then the police officer just sat there eating doughnuts while she was raped and killed!"
"What have you done about Predator drones in Iraq?"
"...what?"
"Because unless you have acted upon this completely irrelevant matter, you have no right to condemn others for being insensitive *******! Case closed."

Ethnikos · 25th November 2009, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

"Because unless you have acted upon this completely irrelevant matter, you have no right to condemn others for being insensitive *******! Case closed."

Everybody is guilty of everything.
Now, if you want to somehow turn that around to, everyone is innocent and only God is guilty, then I have no sympathy whatsoever. That's just ridiculous and it makes me sick to think there are atheists that exist, or at least claim that they exist, when if there is no god, then stop bitching and become gods yourself and fix everything. I just can't believe it and the real god will have to show up one day, and say, "What the Hell? I left you guys in charge here, I come back and look at what you guys have accomplished. I crush you, you worthless servants!" If we would just be gods ourselves and do what's right, then it will keep any nasty gods away, you get it?

HansMustermann · 25th November 2009, 08:12 AM

Ethnikos, my good man, nobody claimed that everyone is innocent, nor that humans can be gods (we wouldn't have needed to invent invisible sky-daddy if everyone could do the same). So kindly spare us all the strawmen.

Ethnikos · 25th November 2009, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Ethnikos, my good man, nobody claimed that everyone is innocent, nor that humans can be gods (we wouldn't have needed to invent invisible sky-daddy if everyone could do the same). So kindly spare us all the strawmen.

I was claiming that. Jesus brought up the verse while being in a disagreement with the Jewish leaders: Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’?"

He was referring to where Psalms says:

82:1 God stands in the assembly of El;
in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.
82:2 He says, “How long will you make unjust legal decisions
and show favoritism to the wicked? (Selah)
82:3 Defend the cause of the poor and the fatherless!
Vindicate the oppressed and suffering!
82:4 Rescue the poor and needy!
Deliver them from the power of the wicked!
82:5 They neither know nor understand.
They stumble around in the dark,
while all the foundations of the earth crumble.
82:6 I thought, ‘You are gods;
all of you are sons of the Most High.’
82:7 Yet you will die like mortals;
you will fall like all the other rulers.”
82:8 Rise up, O God, and execute judgment on the earth!
For you own all the nations.

My point is, if people who are in positions of responsibility did their jobs, no higher god than themselves would be necessary. When they are negligent, then the big bad god has to show up.
If you (or anyone else, not necessarily you in particular) were to believe in no higher authority than who we can see and know (meaning other people) it would seem to me that it would behoove you to take the proper amount of responsibility that would be required of a make believe (shy daddy) god in that role.
I am not letting off easy people who are believers and their responsibility may be even greater.

HansMustermann · 25th November 2009, 11:24 AM

Except then it seems to me like we don't need sky daddy at all. If the condition for the world to be better or worse is essentially the same either way, both with or without him, then why bother with the extra entity? You know, Occam's Razor and all that.

Ethnikos · 25th November 2009, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Except then it seems to me like we don't need sky daddy at all. If the condition for the world to be better or worse is essentially the same either way, both with or without him, then why bother with the extra entity? You know, Occam's Razor and all that.

Fear of punishment for malfeasance.

Yesterday I ran into a woman at the store and we got into a conversation outside that lasted about two hours. She was talking about a long term process that she had been engaged with and had every intention of continuing on into the future. This involved various relatives and lawyers and judges and state officials and doctors, a big mess. Once I finally had a grasp of the situation I was aghast and tried to dissuade her from the course she was trying to outline to me. Out of desperation, I enlisted the help of a fellow shopper, who looked to be a good person who could speak with some authority. I said to this man, after giving a very short analysis of this woman's plight, that two of the main characters in the story were dead, including the more important (to the story) judge. He looked at this woman very kindly but very seriously said, "God will judge this person." actually he elaborated further and was very smart sounding, and I was hoping it would have the proper affect. Which is maybe that in this situation, she should occupy what is left of her life doing things that will have a good affect on others and to cease with self destructive thinking, like emotional thoughts of vengeance.
The point being, life would suck without God. How would the world be if everyone felt like they had to take justice into their own hands and spend their whole lives going after one person or the other? Probably more stress caused illness and a lot of dead bodies in the streets.

Safe-Keeper · 25th November 2009, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Everybody is guilty of everything.

I must have committed those rapes and genocides while in some sort of trance, then, because I sure as heck do not remember them

.

Quote:

Now, if you want to somehow turn that around to, everyone is innocent and only God is guilty, then I have no sympathy whatsoever.

Good thing no one said anything like that, then.

Quote:

That's just ridiculous and it makes me sick to think there are atheists that exist, or at least claim that they exist, when if there is no god, then stop bitching and become gods yourself and fix everything.

First of all, I do things for my community, so your personal attacks (or whatever they are) are moot. If God exists and is omnipotent, omniscient and omni-benevolent, He should prevent rapes and mass murders from happening.

Also, what do you mean with "become gods"? That's like saying that if you don't believe fairies exist, then that must mean that you consider yourself a fairy. Utterly ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I was claiming that. Jesus brought up the verse while being in a disagreement with the Jewish leaders: Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’?"

[Bible quotation snipped]

Quote:

My point is, if people who are in positions of responsibility did their jobs, no higher god than themselves would be necessary. When they are negligent, then the big bad god has to show up.

"Yes, mister, we do realize that he is beating his children and his wife, passing out on the floor every night, and taking all the family's money and spending it on booze, but we decided that even though we're CPS, it would be better to leave the family to its own devices. We could intervene now just fine, but we can't do anything until after he's beaten the wife almost to death, raped the daughters, and barricaded himself with a shotgun. Then we send in the SWAT team and kill him.

'Cause, see, we're just merciful and good like that.

Quote:

If you (or anyone else, not necessarily you in particular) were to believe in no higher authority than who we can see and know (meaning other people) it would seem to me that it would behoove you to take the proper amount of responsibility that would be required of a make believe (shy daddy) god in that role.

You sure assume a lot about me.

Quote:

The point being, life would suck without God. How would the world be if everyone felt like they had to take justice into their own hands and spend their whole lives going after one person or the other? Probably more stress caused illness and a lot of dead bodies in the streets.

...what

? First you say we're meant to take care of ourselves because God has decided to go into spectator mode. Then you lament that the world would be horrible if God didn't intervene. You lost me.

It's not that atheists believe God, even though He doesn't exist, should come down and save the day and that meanwhile, we don't have to do a thing. We're saying that if He existed, and was omnipotent and so on, then little five year olds wouldn't be raped and strangled.

Ethnikos · 25th November 2009, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

...what

? First you say we're meant to take care of ourselves because God has decided to go into spectator mode. Then you lament that the world would be horrible if God didn't intervene. You lost me.

You're right about that and I realised it looks like I am contradicting myself. I think the important part of the story was that this man was patient enough to stand there and listen to my little speech and give this reply, that the Judge who seemed to have done an injustice in the woman's case would undoubtedly be punished by God, after the Judge had died. So you get two beneficial things, one, that there is a future accounting by a judgment that can not be avoided, and two, that this thought can give some consolation to the ones who were wronged.
I hope no one is too offended by any of my ranting here. I realise that you do what you can and are a good person and I respect that. I may be arguing against something that is not going on in this forum and may not apply to anyone here personally. I had Mr. ORUgrad in mind as my audience, really. It just seems odd that someone can complain about God. It may be an option to discard one's belief in God. That being the case, that kind of puts the responsibility that would normally be placed on God, onto yourself. It may be that he wants to cling to the idea of there being a God, just not the one in religion, especially the Old Testament. I don't see how anyone can reconcile that because it is not possible to get away from those same issues that reading the Bible brings up. No matter what, someone needs to be held responsible.

dafydd · 26th November 2009, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

I hope no one is too offended by any of my ranting here. .

It's ok,people with religious mania always rant.

22nd November 2009, 10:14 PM	#1
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	My prayer to YHWH Sorry if this appears too graphic for the worshipers of YHWH. I have a little girl. And stories like this get my blood boiling a bit. I sent this to a Christian friend who will respond back with something like "God will make it all right in the end." http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...:b29006816:z10 Dear YHWH, we know you had a thing about torturing and killing children and babies in ancient times- especially children and babies who were not a part of your chosen race. And I know this little girl suffers from the "sin of Ham" and such but I was just wondering if there was another reason why you place the free will of a murderer above the life of this child? Would it be so much to ask for you to spare her life and possibly give the murderer a heart attack? Oops. What am I saying, she is already dead! I'm sure you would have done just that if I had simply prayed in time. Or maybe not. I'm sure, because you are an all loving perfect being, that you must have eased her suffering while this psychotic pedophile raped this innocent child before suffocating the life out of her. Right? RIGHT? Do you watch it happen? I suppose you don't have a choice as you see everything, right? I was just hoping that after thousands of years of butchering kids or "allowing" them to be slaughtered, that you might have softened up a little bit? What is the point of "saving" one child miraculously from a killer if you are going to withhold that salvation from others? How do you determine who gets killed and who doesn't? How do you decide who gets to live and who gets raped and tortured? I'm sure that almost everyone on the planet unless they were completely psychotic would have tried to save this little girl had they been there to witness the attack. How is it then, that your created beings have overwhelmingly more grace than you, the creator? I mean, isn't silence and non action functionally the same as consent and approval? If your actions in not helping this girl are the same as the non action of a psychopath in not helping this girl, what does that make you? I'll betcha if you let me in on your big mysterious plan and will, I just might be able to comprehend it. Cause really, your silence kinda makes you look like a freakin douchebag. AMEN
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97

23rd November 2009, 04:01 AM	#3
devnull Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 1,075	Its a terrible story, but why are you praying to a non-existent entity?
	__________________ (13:36:54) Becket: no conspiracy, its more a group seeking to overthrow America from within

23rd November 2009, 04:27 AM	#4
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	more to the point by naming and shaming YHWH, you are placing the blame specifically at the door of Judaism and not as is more likely considering the area of the crime Jehova.
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

23rd November 2009, 04:56 AM	#5
CriticalSock Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cheltenham, UK Posts: 556	Originally Posted by HansMustermann That's the kind of God we have No we don't!
	Last edited by CriticalSock; 23rd November 2009 at 04:57 AM. Reason: Bad quote tags

23rd November 2009, 05:27 AM	#6
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,354	Originally Posted by devnull Its a terrible story, but why are you praying to a non-existent entity? This is a reasonable question. Surely you are angry with some Xtians (to assume) in particular? Why?
	__________________ God is my copilot. But we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.

23rd November 2009, 03:21 AM	#2
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,096	Actually, that part has sadly already been covered under "free will." See, God allows such stuff to exist, because if he prevented it, he'd be denying the rapist his free will. I'm not sure what kind of a deranged idiot would consider the free will of about 1% of the population to be more important than the protection of the 99% innocents, but there you go. That's the kind of God we have So I doubt that it would be giving any true believer pause for thought.

23rd November 2009, 05:43 AM	#7
Cainkane1 Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 2,566	Originally Posted by devnull Its a terrible story, but why are you praying to a non-existent entity? He's being facetious?
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

23rd November 2009, 06:47 AM	#8
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,852	Originally Posted by Mr Clingford This is a reasonable question. Surely you are angry with some Xtians (to assume) in particular? Why? Why assume anger has anything to do with it? That's just a red herring. Mmm, herring....
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,852	__________________ "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

23rd November 2009, 07:00 AM	#9
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Originally Posted by devnull Its a terrible story, but why are you praying to a non-existent entity? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=156589 The above post is my history here. I am a former fundie. The "prayer" above is written in the spirit of satire from my perspective now- and is completely honest and real from my perspective 10 years ago when I was deconverting. Honest questions are not appreciated in the tradition I was in.
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97

23rd November 2009, 07:03 AM	#10
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,354	Originally Posted by ORUgrad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=156589 The above post is my history here. I am a former fundie. The "prayer" above is written in the spirit of satire from my perspective now- and is completely honest and real from my perspective 10 years ago when I was deconverting. Honest questions are not appreciated in the tradition I was in. Ah, if only you had typed "Sorry if this appears too graphic for the fundie worshippers of YHWH like I used to be" instead of "Sorry if this appears too graphic for the worshipers of YHWH" which you actually wrote.
	__________________ God is my copilot. But we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.

23rd November 2009, 07:05 AM	#11
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Originally Posted by Marduk more to the point by naming and shaming YHWH, you are placing the blame specifically at the door of Judaism and not as is more likely considering the area of the crime Jehova. Hi Marduk! Actually, we could certainly have a discussion as to whether YHWH, Jehovah, or Elohim were different deities in the OT. However, Christians see all of these as one and the same "God". So for practical purposes, YHWH will do. YHWH and Jehovah are derived from the same Hebrew word. YeHoWaH or YaHWeH.
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97

23rd November 2009, 07:22 AM	#12
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by ORUgrad Hi Marduk! Actually, we could certainly have a discussion as to whether YHWH, Jehovah, or Elohim were different deities in the OT. nah, its been done to death already. Originally Posted by ORUgrad However, Christians see all of these as one and the same "God". So for practical purposes, YHWH will do. YHWH and Jehovah are derived from the same Hebrew word. YeHoWaH or YaHWeH. christians might indeed see YHWH and Jehovah as the same God, but you can bet your ass that the Hebrews don't. Using the Hebrew spelling and not the christian one does point your prayer directly at Jewish theology, which of course isn't at all responsible for this for several reasons I could mention, none of which are better than devnull's
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

23rd November 2009, 08:14 AM	#13
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Marduk, are you Jewish? This is definitely Christian theology as well.
ORUgrad Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97

23rd November 2009, 08:21 AM	#14
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by ORUgrad Marduk, are you Jewish? This is definitely Christian theology as well. Marduk is probably one of the most reviled names in Judaism, what you think ? I think your missing my point, any hebrew reading your post is not going to be thinking about xtians, hes going to be wondering why you have it in for the Hebrew God, rather than Allah or Christianity, true from the outside the fact that they are all monotheistic religions seems to connect them as the same, but to a Hebrew worshipping Allah is sacriligeous in the same way that to a moslem worshipping Jehovah is the worst kind of heresy. The names YHWH and Jehovah are religion specific no matter that they share the same etymology surely it would have been simpler to just say "God" rather than "YHWH" or "Jehovah", that way you avoid upsetting anyone specific except himself
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

23rd November 2009, 08:25 AM	#15
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by Marduk Marduk is probably one of the most reviled names in Judaism, what you think ? I think your missing my point, any hebrew reading your post is not going to be thinking about xtians, hes going to be wondering why you have it in for the Hebrew God, rather than Allah or Christianity, true from the outside the fact that they are all monotheistic religions seems to connect them as the same, but to a Hebrew worshipping Allah is sacriligeous in the same way that to a moslem worshipping Jehovah is the worst kind of heresy. The names YHWH and Jehovah are religion specific no matter that they share the same etymology surely it would have been simpler to just say "God" rather than "YHWH" or "Jehovah", that way you avoid upsetting anyone specific except himself Why should Jews get a free pass on YHWH?
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

23rd November 2009, 08:29 AM	#16
commandlinegamer Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 816	Will I go to hell if I say that everytime I see YHWH written now, it translates as Your Mileage May Vary?

23rd November 2009, 08:32 AM	#17
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,802	Originally Posted by commandlinegamer Will I go to hell if I say that everytime I see YHWH written now, it translates as Your Mileage May Vary? How about "Your Head Will Hurt" as a better translation?
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon

23rd November 2009, 08:49 AM	#18
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 3,073	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Why should Jews get a free pass on YHWH? thats the wrong question a more appropriate one would be why should they be singled out for this murder committed by a christian ?
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

23rd November 2009, 09:32 AM	#19
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 14,373	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Actually, that part has sadly already been covered under "free will." See, God allows such stuff to exist, because if he prevented it, he'd be denying the rapist his free will. I'm not sure what kind of a deranged idiot would consider the free will of about 1% of the population to be more important than the protection of the 99% innocents, but there you go. That's the kind of God we have So I doubt that it would be giving any true believer pause for thought. I am also not sure what kind of a deranged idiot would consider that it requires the presence of real children experiencing being raped and murdered to give a murderer a chance to fully express himself. In the unlikely event that such were true, wouldn't automatons serve the purpose just as well? The rapist has no clue they aren't real. And what's the point if God knows it's gonna happen with 100% certainty anyway? Or, gag, could but chooses not to? This fact alone disproves the idea of an omnipotent and kind god.
	__________________ Reid Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman, in *A Day Like Any Other* The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 23rd November 2009 at 09:33 AM.

23rd November 2009, 10:39 AM	#20
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,721	Originally Posted by ORUgrad AMEN "Too stupid" rather than "too graphic". "Thanks", says Mr Clingford. Originally Posted by Mr Clingford Ah, if only you had typed "Sorry if this appears too graphic for the fundie worshippers of YHWH like I used to be" instead of "Sorry if this appears too graphic for the worshipers of YHWH" which you actually wrote. Smashing a winner off a mis-hit lob. Too easy.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

24th November 2009, 07:09 PM	#21
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,712	Originally Posted by ORUgrad . . .Cause really, your silence kinda makes you look like a freakin douchebag. . . Have you protested the American empirialist wars today? No? that kind of makes you look like a doucebag. Silent about Predator drones launching missiles at wedding parties, and torture centers for extracting information from people who should be left alone in their own damn country? You do know that you will be judged by how you judge others, including the god appointed to this world?
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

24th November 2009, 07:24 PM	#22
Safe-Keeper Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 4,373	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Actually, that part has sadly already been covered under "free will." See, God allows such stuff to exist, because if he prevented it, he'd be denying the rapist his free will. I'm not sure what kind of a deranged idiot would consider the free will of about 1% of the population to be more important than the protection of the 99% innocents, but there you go. That's the kind of God we have So I doubt that it would be giving any true believer pause for thought. Indeed. When you think about it, it's exactly like how all Christians are anarchists who wish for police to be disbanded, because it'd be so dreadful if a rapist was kept from abusing and murdering a five-year old girl. Oh, waitaminute. They don't. ETA: Oh, and don't get me started about how He could've saved us a lot of trouble by just not creating us that way in the first place. Quote: Have you protested the American empirialist wars today? No? that kind of makes you look like a doucebag. Oh, right, forgot about that one. "You aren't doing enough by some arbitrary definition, therefore God can sit back and do nothing". "...and then the police officer just sat there eating doughnuts while she was raped and killed!" "What have you done about Predator drones in Iraq?" "...what?" "Because unless you have acted upon this completely irrelevant matter, you have no right to condemn others for being insensitive *******! Case closed."
	__________________ "Then my war dogs joined the fray. I have to say I'm a bit afraid of them. One of the bitches actually gave birth while she was attacking, and her puppies joined in on the carnage." --the awesomeness that is Boatmurdered Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 24th November 2009 at 07:30 PM.

25th November 2009, 05:05 AM	#23
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,712	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper "Because unless you have acted upon this completely irrelevant matter, you have no right to condemn others for being insensitive *******! Case closed." Everybody is guilty of everything. Now, if you want to somehow turn that around to, everyone is innocent and only God is guilty, then I have no sympathy whatsoever. That's just ridiculous and it makes me sick to think there are atheists that exist, or at least claim that they exist, when if there is no god, then stop bitching and become gods yourself and fix everything. I just can't believe it and the real god will have to show up one day, and say, "What the Hell? I left you guys in charge here, I come back and look at what you guys have accomplished. I crush you, you worthless servants!" If we would just be gods ourselves and do what's right, then it will keep any nasty gods away, you get it?
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 25th November 2009 at 05:12 AM.

25th November 2009, 08:12 AM	#24
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,096	Ethnikos, my good man, nobody claimed that everyone is innocent, nor that humans can be gods (we wouldn't have needed to invent invisible sky-daddy if everyone could do the same). So kindly spare us all the strawmen.

25th November 2009, 09:45 AM	#25
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,712	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Ethnikos, my good man, nobody claimed that everyone is innocent, nor that humans can be gods (we wouldn't have needed to invent invisible sky-daddy if everyone could do the same). So kindly spare us all the strawmen. I was claiming that. Jesus brought up the verse while being in a disagreement with the Jewish leaders: Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’?" He was referring to where Psalms says: 82:1 God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment. 82:2 He says, “How long will you make unjust legal decisions and show favoritism to the wicked? (Selah) 82:3 Defend the cause of the poor and the fatherless! Vindicate the oppressed and suffering! 82:4 Rescue the poor and needy! Deliver them from the power of the wicked! 82:5 They neither know nor understand. They stumble around in the dark, while all the foundations of the earth crumble. 82:6 I thought, ‘You are gods; all of you are sons of the Most High.’ 82:7 Yet you will die like mortals; you will fall like all the other rulers.” 82:8 Rise up, O God, and execute judgment on the earth! For you own all the nations. My point is, if people who are in positions of responsibility did their jobs, no higher god than themselves would be necessary. When they are negligent, then the big bad god has to show up. If you (or anyone else, not necessarily you in particular) were to believe in no higher authority than who we can see and know (meaning other people) it would seem to me that it would behoove you to take the proper amount of responsibility that would be required of a make believe (shy daddy) god in that role. I am not letting off easy people who are believers and their responsibility may be even greater.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 25th November 2009 at 10:28 AM.

25th November 2009, 11:24 AM	#26
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,096	Except then it seems to me like we don't need sky daddy at all. If the condition for the world to be better or worse is essentially the same either way, both with or without him, then why bother with the extra entity? You know, Occam's Razor and all that.

25th November 2009, 01:43 PM	#27
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,712	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Except then it seems to me like we don't need sky daddy at all. If the condition for the world to be better or worse is essentially the same either way, both with or without him, then why bother with the extra entity? You know, Occam's Razor and all that. Fear of punishment for malfeasance. Yesterday I ran into a woman at the store and we got into a conversation outside that lasted about two hours. She was talking about a long term process that she had been engaged with and had every intention of continuing on into the future. This involved various relatives and lawyers and judges and state officials and doctors, a big mess. Once I finally had a grasp of the situation I was aghast and tried to dissuade her from the course she was trying to outline to me. Out of desperation, I enlisted the help of a fellow shopper, who looked to be a good person who could speak with some authority. I said to this man, after giving a very short analysis of this woman's plight, that two of the main characters in the story were dead, including the more important (to the story) judge. He looked at this woman very kindly but very seriously said, "God will judge this person." actually he elaborated further and was very smart sounding, and I was hoping it would have the proper affect. Which is maybe that in this situation, she should occupy what is left of her life doing things that will have a good affect on others and to cease with self destructive thinking, like emotional thoughts of vengeance. The point being, life would suck without God. How would the world be if everyone felt like they had to take justice into their own hands and spend their whole lives going after one person or the other? Probably more stress caused illness and a lot of dead bodies in the streets.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment Last edited by Ethnikos; 25th November 2009 at 02:07 PM.

25th November 2009, 05:16 PM	#28
Safe-Keeper Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 4,373	Originally Posted by Ethnikos Everybody is guilty of everything. I must have committed those rapes and genocides while in some sort of trance, then, because I sure as heck do not remember them. Quote: Now, if you want to somehow turn that around to, everyone is innocent and only God is guilty, then I have no sympathy whatsoever. Good thing no one said anything like that, then. Quote: That's just ridiculous and it makes me sick to think there are atheists that exist, or at least claim that they exist, when if there is no god, then stop bitching and become gods yourself and fix everything. First of all, I do things for my community, so your personal attacks (or whatever they are) are moot. If God exists and is omnipotent, omniscient and omni-benevolent, He should prevent rapes and mass murders from happening. Also, what do you mean with "become gods"? That's like saying that if you don't believe fairies exist, then that must mean that you consider yourself a fairy. Utterly ridiculous. Originally Posted by Ethnikos I was claiming that. Jesus brought up the verse while being in a disagreement with the Jewish leaders: Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’?" [Bible quotation snipped] Quote: My point is, if people who are in positions of responsibility did their jobs, no higher god than themselves would be necessary. When they are negligent, then the big bad god has to show up. "Yes, mister, we do realize that he is beating his children and his wife, passing out on the floor every night, and taking all the family's money and spending it on booze, but we decided that even though we're CPS, it would be better to leave the family to its own devices. We could intervene now just fine, but we can't do anything until after he's beaten the wife almost to death, raped the daughters, and barricaded himself with a shotgun. Then we send in the SWAT team and kill him. 'Cause, see, we're just merciful and good like that. Quote: If you (or anyone else, not necessarily you in particular) were to believe in no higher authority than who we can see and know (meaning other people) it would seem to me that it would behoove you to take the proper amount of responsibility that would be required of a make believe (shy daddy) god in that role. You sure assume a lot about me. Quote: The point being, life would suck without God. How would the world be if everyone felt like they had to take justice into their own hands and spend their whole lives going after one person or the other? Probably more stress caused illness and a lot of dead bodies in the streets. ...what? First you say we're meant to take care of ourselves because God has decided to go into spectator mode. Then you lament that the world would be horrible if God didn't intervene. You lost me. It's not that atheists believe God, even though He doesn't exist, should come down and save the day and that meanwhile, we don't have to do a thing. We're saying that if He existed, and was omnipotent and so on, then little five year olds wouldn't be raped and strangled.
	__________________ "Then my war dogs joined the fray. I have to say I'm a bit afraid of them. One of the bitches actually gave birth while she was attacking, and her puppies joined in on the carnage." --the awesomeness that is Boatmurdered

25th November 2009, 10:28 PM	#29
Ethnikos Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,712	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper ...what? First you say we're meant to take care of ourselves because God has decided to go into spectator mode. Then you lament that the world would be horrible if God didn't intervene. You lost me. You're right about that and I realised it looks like I am contradicting myself. I think the important part of the story was that this man was patient enough to stand there and listen to my little speech and give this reply, that the Judge who seemed to have done an injustice in the woman's case would undoubtedly be punished by God, after the Judge had died. So you get two beneficial things, one, that there is a future accounting by a judgment that can not be avoided, and two, that this thought can give some consolation to the ones who were wronged. I hope no one is too offended by any of my ranting here. I realise that you do what you can and are a good person and I respect that. I may be arguing against something that is not going on in this forum and may not apply to anyone here personally. I had Mr. ORUgrad in mind as my audience, really. It just seems odd that someone can complain about God. It may be an option to discard one's belief in God. That being the case, that kind of puts the responsibility that would normally be placed on God, onto yourself. It may be that he wants to cling to the idea of there being a God, just not the one in religion, especially the Old Testament. I don't see how anyone can reconcile that because it is not possible to get away from those same issues that reading the Bible brings up. No matter what, someone needs to be held responsible.
	__________________ God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment

26th November 2009, 12:38 PM	#30
dafydd Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,194	Originally Posted by Ethnikos I hope no one is too offended by any of my ranting here. . It's ok,people with religious mania always rant.
dafydd Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,194