What can persuade you that God exists?

riddle · 23rd November 2009, 10:19 AM

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

RoboTimbo · 23rd November 2009, 10:20 AM

What convinced you that a god exists?

That_guy · 23rd November 2009, 10:23 AM

Amputees regrowing limbs after praying. The stars randomly rearranging themselves to spell out interesting phrases like "Hey, it's me: God!" and "I'm watching you, That_guy!" Child molesters ceasing to exist retroactively. Disease disappearing retroactively. Talking monkeys (not apes, to be clear-- simians only, thank you.) The list goes on, but I'm sure you get the point.

JAStewart · 23rd November 2009, 10:24 AM

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Cainkane1 · 23rd November 2009, 10:26 AM

If you omit something I can feel or touch then nothing will convince me a Diety exists. I'd accept some sort of event that would go against the grain of coincidence. For instance if a person without arms suddenly got his arms back while I watched after he prayed for the return of said limbs then I might be persuaded to believe something in the ether was listening. How about a 5000 year old Egyptian Mummy come back to youthful healthy life after someone prayed for that to happen?

The diety would have to do something, anything extraordinary in my presence me being a few inches away from the event and in such a way that I would know what I was seeing was really happening. Thats not going to happen because there is no god.

Eyeron · 23rd November 2009, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

And when the evidence is extraordinary then it is too good to be true and therefore must be a hoax.

As far as the op goes, I'd like to see the total cessation of evil and an amputee's appendage regrown without the use of any kind of technology.

drkitten · 23rd November 2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Eyeron

And when the evidence is extraordinary then it is too good to be true and therefore must be a hoax.

Only because it always has been when we've had the chance to examine it. (And most of the time, we haven't even had the chance to examine it.)

Heck, most of the time the evidence hasn't even been extraordinary. If we're talking about YHVH, the omnipotent Abrahamic God, the one who's capable of a creating a forty-day flood that rose to above the top of Mt. Everest, the one who can turn the entire river Nile to blood, and who can literally stop the Sun in its tracks --- the idea that a small group of "prayed-for" heart patients would recover at a rate marginally better than the control group is not especially extraordinary.

How about finishing the Crazy Horse statue overnight?

How about finishing the Crazy Horse statue overnight, then making it get up and ride around for a while?

How about finishing the Crazy Horse statue overnight, then making it get up and ride to Washington DC where it carves John 3:16 into the side of the Washington monument?

I'll happily reconsider my position then.

uruk · 23rd November 2009, 10:50 AM

I don't know what will convince me. But if god is all knowing and knows every intricate detail of me and my personality, He would definitly know exactly what it would take to convince me.

The Atheist · 23rd November 2009, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by riddle

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument.

It's the only argument.

Poofters might start philosophical arguments about the logic of god/s and why he/they might be or not be, but the only rational reason to not be a believer is the sheer lack of not just evidence, but also any reasonable support for the idea at all.

Originally Posted by riddle

And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything ...

I don't understand this at all - could you have another go at expressing yourself?

What belief is this? I am actually an atheist, and I don't see humans as either the beginning or end of anything, and I don't know anyone else who does either.

Far from persuading me of the belief, you need to persuade me the belief actaully exists!

Is this some kind of new humanist religion I'm unaware of?

Originally Posted by riddle

...because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence.

Crikey, mate. If I wanted to sell you a gold mine, I bet you'd want some clear and concrete proof that the gold existed, but you expect me to sign over my immortal soul on the basis of the sales pitch that is christianity?

Jesus!

First off - and totally ignoring all of the other religions in existence - which brand of christianity is the right one for godliness and eternal heavenly joy?

Is it Catholicism with its billion members?
Fred Phelps?
Southern Baptist?

See, I've read this kind of christian guide-book thing called a bible; it says that if I cock up the worship of the god-bloke, I'm screwed! What if I pick the wrong church? Being an atheist, I can only get Purgatory, but if I join the wrong church of my own free will, I could condemn myself to an eternity in Hell! (depending on your current doctrine)

How do I know which mine has the gold in?

I think some kind of proof is fair.

I'm a reasonable bloke, however, and far from concrete or clear proof, I'd just accept the god-thing telling me which church I should go to.

Just that.

Originally Posted by riddle

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

Answered above.

I've kept it nice and simple; these god-things must be kept bloody busy.

Whichever god/s actually exist just needs to come and chat with me on a one-to-one basis and tell me which church to attend. I know hundreds of people who claim to have a personal relationship with god, and while not everyone's that fundy, even the most moderate christian prays, so there's clearly comething to communicate to/with.

Undesired Walrus · 23rd November 2009, 11:00 AM

What could convince you that an invisible teapot exists?

First you need to describe to me what God is.

Professor Yaffle · 23rd November 2009, 11:03 AM

The Toon Army ever winning a trophy again?

Egg · 23rd November 2009, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

The Toon Army ever winning a trophy again?

Does the Championship count as a trophy?

Anyway, I though you guys already believed in god and his name is Alan Shearer

or did he fail to demonstrate his omnipotence last season?

Robin · 23rd November 2009, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by riddle

And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything ...

Whoever suggested that humans are the beginning and end of everything?

Certainly no atheist.

Humans are just the merest accidental blip in the middle.

Quote:

You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

It seems to me if I had a claim to make then I would know how to back it up.

I wouldn't have to go to other people and ask them what the evidence should be.

Also, all sorts of people come here with all sorts of weird definitions of God - so you should be specific and define the proposition you want us to consider..

If it is just some nebulous concept like "cause of the Universe" or "that, greater than which nothing can be thought" then there is hardly a point in discussing it.

We can hardly be asked to express an opinion on what evidence would convince us if we don't have a clear idea of what we are supposed to be convinced of.

bokonon · 23rd November 2009, 11:12 AM

I think the Bible quotes Jesus as saying something along the lines of "If you silence the people, the stones will begin to shout their praise!" (Luke 19:40). If a pile of rocks came knocking on the door singing "Hark the Herald", I'd scatter the pile to look for hidden speakers, and maybe crack a couple open with a hammer, but once I got down to a singing sandpile, I'd probably be convinced.

If Jesus can't manage the act he's quoted as promising, singing trees would work, but only if they also dance. Too many places to hide a speaker.

If you have some God other than Jesus in mind, please be specific.

paximperium · 23rd November 2009, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by riddle

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

Beats me. Shouldn't "god" know?

six7s · 23rd November 2009, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by riddle

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

I'm guessing that - for most of those active on this forum - the two highlighted 'groups' are pretty much 'mutually exclusive'

ETA

For example:

I don’t believe in any gods
I don't need evidence that any gods exist (this isn't to say I'm not curious... far from it... its just I find that everything makes MUCH more sense when myths, legends, superstitions (aka woo beliefs) are omitted from the picture

padego · 23rd November 2009, 11:20 AM

Stop by for a nice chat, maybe dinner, he/she's got some explaining to do.

Oh, and make my mortgage disappear....

Hux · 23rd November 2009, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

The Toon Army ever winning a trophy again?

The Toon Army have won nowt and will win nowt. The team conceivably might.

Professor Yaffle · 23rd November 2009, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Egg

Does the Championship count as a trophy?

Anyway, I though you guys already believed in god and his name is Alan Shearer

or did he fail to demonstrate his omnipotence last season?

I'm just waiting for the resurrection of Uncle Sir Bobby.

And no the championship doesn't count.

Hokulele · 23rd November 2009, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by riddle

... And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. ...

A stroke or some other type of major change to my brain could easily leave me believing some sort of god exists, but would not be convincing to other atheists. This is why objective evidence, "something that I can see and touch", is much more useful.

A signing sandpile would be pretty cool.

RoboTimbo · 23rd November 2009, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

A stroke or some other type of major change to my brain could easily leave me believing some sort of god exists, but would not be convincing to other atheists. This is why objective evidence, "something that I can see and touch", is much more useful.

A signing sandpile would be pretty cool.

If the sandpile used SSL*, that would indeed be impressive.

* Sandpile Sign Language

drkitten · 23rd November 2009, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by six7s

I'm guessing that - for most of those active on this forum - the two highlighted 'groups' are pretty much 'mutually exclusive'

ETA

For example:

I don’t believe in any gods
I don't need evidence that any gods exist (this isn't to say I'm not curious... far from it... its just I find that everything makes MUCH more sense when myths, legends, superstitions (aka woo beliefs) are omitted from the picture

This makes no sense. In order to believe in God, you would need evidence. Without compelling evidence, you will continue not to believe in God.

The problem that little evidence has been forthcoming, and the problem that the evidence that has been forthcoming is far from compelling are not yours, but the theists.

Howie Felterbush · 23rd November 2009, 11:27 AM

How about a driver's license? Or a stack of His old W-2's? Maybe a union card (Deities Local 249)?

Hokulele · 23rd November 2009, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

If the sandpile used SSL*, that would indeed be impressive.

* Sandpile Sign Language

Heh, that would be even more impressive.

Stupid keyboard, output what I mean, not the letters I press in the order I press them!

paximperium · 23rd November 2009, 11:38 AM

"As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some other observations on the word revelation. Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it."
-Thomas Paine, Age of Reason

six7s · 23rd November 2009, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by drkitten

In order to believe in God, you would need evidence

Perhaps...

However, I do not need to believe in any gods

Therfore, I do not need evidence for any gods

If the (my) Universe stops making sense, I might revise my need to believe in a god (this is, I think, a common sequence of events when people are overwhelmed by the ordinary, day-to-day aspects of LTUAE)

Foster Zygote · 23rd November 2009, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by riddle

And you cannot persuade them [atheists] in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything...

Such a belief is not a requirement of atheism. In fact, I have yet to encounter an atheist who believes such a thing. I suppose that if you believe in a hierarchy that places a god or gods at the very top, and perhaps some other supernatural being like angels or djinns just below them, and then humans below them, then one might assume that those who lack belief in the supernatural place humans at the top of a hierarchy. But this assumes that others even subscribe to such an arrangement in the first place.

HansMustermann · 23rd November 2009, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by riddle

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

Riddle, we're talking a god that's described as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. In other words, he's already here, he already knows what proof could convince me and what won't, and he _can_ do it. (If there was stuff he can't do, it wouldn't be omnipotent, dont you think?) And it doesn't take him any effort either. (If you could put a finite non-zero amount of time and effort he needs, then another being could be conceived who can do it in half the time or effort. Hence, the absolute supreme power claim would kinda go lost.)

So for a start, I'm not accepting anything that involves "But don’t say anything like..." Why not? He _can_ do whatever I think, can't he?

Really, such a god wouldn't need to send a fundie to tell me why should I believe in him. And he wouldn't need such a question either. If he's omniscient, he already knows the answer.

(And especially I love it when they're essentially telling me, "my god is already here, and he _could_ talk directly to you, and he already knows that my broken arguments aren't the kind that you'll believe... but he wants me to tell you that he loves you." Why? Would god get a nosebleed if he told me that personally? Is god a high-school nerd, or what? Because even by high-school standards, "tell X I love him/her" was considered socially inept and uncool.

I mean, damn, I might even put out if he told me personally that he loves me

)

But I digress... Anyway, if he wants me to believe, he can jolly well deal with me in person. I mean, he's already here, he already knows it, and he can do it.

Failing that, well some visible and palpable evidence is exactly the thing I'd expect, not more sophistry and fallacies.

Cleon · 23rd November 2009, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by riddle

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists?

Shakira and Beyonce falling madly and completely in love with me.

Hokulele · 23rd November 2009, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by riddle

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists?

Shakira and Beyonce falling madly and completely in love with Cleon.

Pure_Argent · 23rd November 2009, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by riddle

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument.

Well, no, not exactly. It is the most important argument because it is the only argument. In the end, all of the arguments against theism boil down to this in the end.

Quote:

And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence.

Which there would be if this was not the case.

Quote:

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

Actually, that is a concrete answer. We need proof - say, Jesus descending from the heavens and turning my Dr. Pepper into wine, then turning my eyesight 20/20 and curing my asthma.
As it is, there is no evidence for a god. What made you decide that there was?

Foster Zygote · 23rd November 2009, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

Shakira and Beyonce falling madly and completely in love with me.

And each other?

kuroyume0161 · 23rd November 2009, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by JAStewart

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

In this case, I think:

Absolute extraordinary claims require absolute extraordinary evidence.

(To paraphrase and mix in 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'.)

In other words, for something as unimaginable as an extra-universal being claiming absolute powers and creation of the universe it would require one big f'ing amazing pile of evidence.

PingOfPong · 23rd November 2009, 12:42 PM

Ahh, a question I've often thought about as an atheiest.

A miracle wouldn't do it for me. How do I know it's not a simple magician's trick? If it's not a magician's trick, how do I know that God did it? For all I know, it could be the work of some alien using advanced technology. Having lived in a mundane world, if I started seeing miracles everywhere then I would start questioning my own sanity. Anyway, I wouldn't respect anyone who wanted to gain my worship with flashy demonstrations of power. All that I need is for God, not some human putting words in God's mouth, to speak to me and give me some insight that I could be sure is godly and not petty. BTW, something like "love me or I will smite thee" is petty not Godly.

I don't think that will ever happen of course.

ETA: I was raised to be a Baptist. I didn't see any evidence for God but I saw plenty of evidence for many people's hysterical need to believe in a God or gods.

Tormac · 23rd November 2009, 12:54 PM

If the history of any major church (pick a religion) seemed to indicate that they were morally superior to the rest of society at the time, I would consider that there may be something to this God thing.

If there is a church today that seemed to me to have a superior sense of morality to society at large, I would consider that there may be something to this god thing.

I don’t expect signs from the heavens; I would consider it a major miracle to find large organized religious groups that seemed to practice what they preach.

Belz... · 23rd November 2009, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by riddle

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument.

It's also a very strong argument, considering that we're supposed to expect that God's existence would have some visible effect.

Quote:

And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof

What is that supposed to mean ?

Bible-thumpers are much more anthropocentric than atheists because, you see, god made them in his image!! They're like gods!!

Quote:

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists?

Reproducible, objective evidence visible by all, no matter what their beliefs are.

Good luck with that.

Rasmus · 23rd November 2009, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by riddle

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument.

You're over-simplifying.

Not only is there no proof of a God, the god-hypothesis is simply not needed to explain anything. (Or rather, those thing that currently lack explanation are not well-explained by assuming a super-natural agent.)

Quote:

And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence.

What do you think it means when you say that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything?

I don't think we are either, but that doesn't change the fact that to accept a hypothesis I need at least a good reason to do so. You're simply trying to argue from ignorance.

Quote:

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

How do you define "god"?
To me. it's just an empty word used by arrogant people who cannot admit to themselves or others that there are things they just don't know.

Frankly, I am not sure if it can be done. The Christian God is defined in a way that is self-contradicting. He is not possible at such and he is not compatible with the world we live in. (Theodicy^WP)

I think that the explanation "I must be insane" is always to be preferred to "there is a god". (And that only applies once "I am mistaken" or "I am being deceived" have been ruled out ...)

Of course, your point seems mute to me: Two thousands years (and more) of tremendous effort of some of the best-educated people at their respective time have utterly failed to provide as much as a single, semi-convincing argument.

In that respect, my answer to your question has to be "something from someone a lot smarter than you or me. I doubt you are the smartest individual for the past two millennia and I know I am not." (In other words: Why do you even ask? Even if you received an answer, there is no reason to assume you could possibly deliver the required evidence.)

And a pragmatic answer: Prayer that lets amputees regrow their limps would be a good start; certain vegetation that talks and burns with non-consuming fire would be a nice touch. As of now, the words "I am God and I am most certainly real you arrogant imbecile" fail to appear on my living room wall. I am not even asking they be dripping in blood. (And I *DID* look behind me!)

Finally, I don't think I need to be able to answer your question. Just give me the strongest argument you have, the best proof that exists. If that is not sufficient, I will let you know how it fails. You're putting the cart before the horse, I think. What proof I need has no bearing on the proof that you have. You have what you have, and you cannot engineer better proof that would meet my standards. If you don't have it now, how would you get it upon learning that I'd need it? (Again, after milennia of people trying and failing!) You are assuming that which you seek to prove to be so - and that is invalid. Yes, if there was a God that we could know about, there would be some form of proof that I'd accept. That nobody can provide this proof does not necessarily mean that we haven't looked hard enough, though. It might just mean that the proof does simply not exist - either because there simply is no god, or because he does not want us to have the proof. (And the latter doesn't help your argument either. It's not the kind of God we are talking about, after all. It would by definition not be a smart thing to belive in that kind of god, let alone assume you might be able to provide evidence of its existence.)

Traveler Steve · 23rd November 2009, 01:21 PM

Waking up one morning and having Anna Paquin lying next to- and madly in love with- me would be a nice start! (And not that other Stephen bloke.)

Pedro De Mello · 23rd November 2009, 01:37 PM

If I could get a girlfriend =/

Lol...

I don't know... maybe amputees growing their limbs back would be enough...

Eyeron · 23rd November 2009, 01:44 PM

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23rd November 2009, 10:19 AM	#1
riddle Student Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 35	What can persuade you that God exists? Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.
riddle Student Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 35

23rd November 2009, 10:20 AM	#2
RoboTimbo Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rachel, KS Posts: 4,589	What convinced you that a god exists?
	__________________ "For people involved in the War on Stupid, it's hard to resist the call to battle." - Darth Rotor

23rd November 2009, 10:24 AM	#4
JAStewart Graduate Poster Tagger Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Shetland Islands Posts: 1,211	Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
	__________________ No. It's not complicated. You are wrong, and most sane people know it. - twinstead @ bill smith

23rd November 2009, 10:26 AM	#5
Cainkane1 Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 2,566	If you omit something I can feel or touch then nothing will convince me a Diety exists. I'd accept some sort of event that would go against the grain of coincidence. For instance if a person without arms suddenly got his arms back while I watched after he prayed for the return of said limbs then I might be persuaded to believe something in the ether was listening. How about a 5000 year old Egyptian Mummy come back to youthful healthy life after someone prayed for that to happen? The diety would have to do something, anything extraordinary in my presence me being a few inches away from the event and in such a way that I would know what I was seeing was really happening. Thats not going to happen because there is no god.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

23rd November 2009, 10:28 AM	#6
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774	Quote: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And when the evidence is extraordinary then it is too good to be true and therefore must be a hoax. As far as the op goes, I'd like to see the total cessation of evil and an amputee's appendage regrown without the use of any kind of technology.
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774	Last edited by Eyeron; 23rd November 2009 at 11:03 AM.

23rd November 2009, 10:23 AM	#3
That_guy Scholar Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: My house Posts: 115	Amputees regrowing limbs after praying. The stars randomly rearranging themselves to spell out interesting phrases like "Hey, it's me: God!" and "I'm watching you, That_guy!" Child molesters ceasing to exist retroactively. Disease disappearing retroactively. Talking monkeys (not apes, to be clear-- simians only, thank you.) The list goes on, but I'm sure you get the point.

23rd November 2009, 10:39 AM	#7
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 17,338	Originally Posted by Eyeron And when the evidence is extraordinary then it is too good to be true and therefore must be a hoax. Only because it always has been when we've had the chance to examine it. (And most of the time, we haven't even had the chance to examine it.) Heck, most of the time the evidence hasn't even been extraordinary. If we're talking about YHVH, the omnipotent Abrahamic God, the one who's capable of a creating a forty-day flood that rose to above the top of Mt. Everest, the one who can turn the entire river Nile to blood, and who can literally stop the Sun in its tracks --- the idea that a small group of "prayed-for" heart patients would recover at a rate marginally better than the control group is not especially extraordinary. How about finishing the Crazy Horse statue overnight? How about finishing the Crazy Horse statue overnight, then making it get up and ride around for a while? How about finishing the Crazy Horse statue overnight, then making it get up and ride to Washington DC where it carves John 3:16 into the side of the Washington monument? I'll happily reconsider my position then.

23rd November 2009, 10:50 AM	#8
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,381	I don't know what will convince me. But if god is all knowing and knows every intricate detail of me and my personality, He would definitly know exactly what it would take to convince me.
	__________________ Facts are meaningless, they can be used to prove anything that is even remotely true. Just because I don't care doesn't mean that I don't understand. Why do things that happen to stupid people keep happening to me!?! Lisa!...In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics! Alot of great things are based on lies, like religion and American history Homer Simpson

23rd November 2009, 10:53 AM	#9
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,727	Originally Posted by riddle Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. It's the only argument. Poofters might start philosophical arguments about the logic of god/s and why he/they might be or not be, but the only rational reason to not be a believer is the sheer lack of not just evidence, but also any reasonable support for the idea at all. Originally Posted by riddle And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything ... I don't understand this at all - could you have another go at expressing yourself? What belief is this? I am actually an atheist, and I don't see humans as either the beginning or end of anything, and I don't know anyone else who does either. Far from persuading me of the belief, you need to persuade me the belief actaully exists! Is this some kind of new humanist religion I'm unaware of? Originally Posted by riddle ...because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. Crikey, mate. If I wanted to sell you a gold mine, I bet you'd want some clear and concrete proof that the gold existed, but you expect me to sign over my immortal soul on the basis of the sales pitch that is christianity? Jesus! First off - and totally ignoring all of the other religions in existence - which brand of christianity is the right one for godliness and eternal heavenly joy? Is it Catholicism with its billion members? Fred Phelps? Southern Baptist? See, I've read this kind of christian guide-book thing called a bible; it says that if I cock up the worship of the god-bloke, I'm screwed! What if I pick the wrong church? Being an atheist, I can only get Purgatory, but if I join the wrong church of my own free will, I could condemn myself to an eternity in Hell! (depending on your current doctrine) How do I know which mine has the gold in? I think some kind of proof is fair. I'm a reasonable bloke, however, and far from concrete or clear proof, I'd just accept the god-thing telling me which church I should go to. Just that. Originally Posted by riddle And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is. Answered above. I've kept it nice and simple; these god-things must be kept bloody busy. Whichever god/s actually exist just needs to come and chat with me on a one-to-one basis and tell me which church to attend. I know hundreds of people who claim to have a personal relationship with god, and while not everyone's that fundy, even the most moderate christian prays, so there's clearly comething to communicate to/with.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

23rd November 2009, 11:00 AM	#10
Undesired Walrus Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7,139	What could convince you that an invisible teapot exists? First you need to describe to me what God is.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, Prime Minister of Britain, 1945

23rd November 2009, 11:03 AM	#11
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 7,132	The Toon Army ever winning a trophy again?
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that.

23rd November 2009, 11:09 AM	#12
Egg Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 720	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle The Toon Army ever winning a trophy again? Does the Championship count as a trophy? Anyway, I though you guys already believed in god and his name is Alan Shearer or did he fail to demonstrate his omnipotence last season?
Egg Muse Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 720	__________________ _{"That's the thing with eggs: It's all about chicks and getting laid." - Wuschel} _{"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg" - Samuel Butler} _{“When arguing with a stone an egg is always wrong” - African proverb} _{“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” - Bernard Meltzer}

23rd November 2009, 11:10 AM	#13
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,778	Originally Posted by riddle And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything ... Whoever suggested that humans are the beginning and end of everything? Certainly no atheist. Humans are just the merest accidental blip in the middle. Quote: You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is. It seems to me if I had a claim to make then I would know how to back it up. I wouldn't have to go to other people and ask them what the evidence should be. Also, all sorts of people come here with all sorts of weird definitions of God - so you should be specific and define the proposition you want us to consider.. If it is just some nebulous concept like "cause of the Universe" or "that, greater than which nothing can be thought" then there is hardly a point in discussing it. We can hardly be asked to express an opinion on what evidence would convince us if we don't have a clear idea of what we are supposed to be convinced of.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,778	__________________ If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms. - David Hume 1711-1776 Last edited by Robin; 23rd November 2009 at 11:11 AM.

23rd November 2009, 11:12 AM	#14
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,224	I think the Bible quotes Jesus as saying something along the lines of "If you silence the people, the stones will begin to shout their praise!" (Luke 19:40). If a pile of rocks came knocking on the door singing "Hark the Herald", I'd scatter the pile to look for hidden speakers, and maybe crack a couple open with a hammer, but once I got down to a singing sandpile, I'd probably be convinced. If Jesus can't manage the act he's quoted as promising, singing trees would work, but only if they also dance. Too many places to hide a speaker. If you have some God other than Jesus in mind, please be specific.
bokonon Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,224	__________________ Laugh while you can, monkey boy. Last edited by bokonon; 23rd November 2009 at 11:13 AM.

23rd November 2009, 11:14 AM	#15
paximperium Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 7,800	Originally Posted by riddle Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is. Beats me. Shouldn't "god" know?
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

23rd November 2009, 11:18 AM	#16
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	Originally Posted by riddle Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is. I'm guessing that - for most of those active on this forum - the two highlighted 'groups' are pretty much 'mutually exclusive' ETA For example: I don’t believe in any gods I don't need evidence that any gods exist (this isn't to say I'm not curious... far from it... its just I find that everything makes MUCH more sense when myths, legends, superstitions (aka woo beliefs) are omitted from the picture
	__________________ Sent from my Mac Book Wheel using Clickaclickaclickaclickatalk Last edited by six7s; 23rd November 2009 at 11:25 AM.

23rd November 2009, 11:20 AM	#17
padego New Blood Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 24	Stop by for a nice chat, maybe dinner, he/she's got some explaining to do. Oh, and make my mortgage disappear....
padego New Blood Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 24

23rd November 2009, 11:20 AM	#18
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle The Toon Army ever winning a trophy again? The Toon Army have won nowt and will win nowt. The team conceivably might.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,064	__________________ *...people of faith who are that intelligent they've only managed to fool themselves* - MARDUK

23rd November 2009, 11:21 AM	#19
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 7,132	Originally Posted by Egg Does the Championship count as a trophy? Anyway, I though you guys already believed in god and his name is Alan Shearer or did he fail to demonstrate his omnipotence last season? I'm just waiting for the resurrection of Uncle Sir Bobby. And no the championship doesn't count.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that.

23rd November 2009, 11:22 AM	#20
Hokulele Official Nemesis TLA Dictatrix Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: To be determined. Posts: 21,349	Originally Posted by riddle ... And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. ... A stroke or some other type of major change to my brain could easily leave me believing some sort of god exists, but would not be convincing to other atheists. This is why objective evidence, "something that I can see and touch", is much more useful. A signing sandpile would be pretty cool.
	__________________ You, madam, do not appear to be bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of us. - JoeyDonuts You should listen to the evil one - Don't try to understand it, just experience it. - AJM8125

23rd November 2009, 11:25 AM	#21
RoboTimbo Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rachel, KS Posts: 4,589	Originally Posted by Hokulele A stroke or some other type of major change to my brain could easily leave me believing some sort of god exists, but would not be convincing to other atheists. This is why objective evidence, "something that I can see and touch", is much more useful. A signing sandpile would be pretty cool. If the sandpile used SSL, that would indeed be impressive. Sandpile Sign Language
	__________________ "For people involved in the War on Stupid, it's hard to resist the call to battle." - Darth Rotor

23rd November 2009, 11:27 AM	#22
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 17,338	Originally Posted by six7s I'm guessing that - for most of those active on this forum - the two highlighted 'groups' are pretty much 'mutually exclusive' ETA For example: I don’t believe in any gods I don't need evidence that any gods exist (this isn't to say I'm not curious... far from it... its just I find that everything makes MUCH more sense when myths, legends, superstitions (aka woo beliefs) are omitted from the picture This makes no sense. In order to believe in God, you would need evidence. Without compelling evidence, you will continue not to believe in God. The problem that little evidence has been forthcoming, and the problem that the evidence that has been forthcoming is far from compelling are not yours, but the theists.

23rd November 2009, 11:27 AM	#23
Howie Felterbush Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 457	How about a driver's license? Or a stack of His old W-2's? Maybe a union card (Deities Local 249)?
	__________________ "More to the point, it is claimed that only stormtroopers can be that accurate, yet they're clearly demonstrated as being unable to hit a barn door while enclosed in a building constructed entirely out of barn doors, using special barn-door-seeking ammunition."-Cuddles

23rd November 2009, 11:30 AM	#24
Hokulele Official Nemesis TLA Dictatrix Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: To be determined. Posts: 21,349	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo If the sandpile used SSL, that would indeed be impressive. Sandpile Sign Language Heh, that would be even more impressive. Stupid keyboard, output what I mean, not the letters I press in the order I press them!
	__________________ You, madam, do not appear to be bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of us. - JoeyDonuts You should listen to the evil one - Don't try to understand it, just experience it. - AJM8125

23rd November 2009, 11:38 AM	#25
paximperium Philosopher Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 7,800	"As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some other observations on the word revelation. Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man. No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it." -Thomas Paine, Age of Reason
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

23rd November 2009, 11:57 AM	#26
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,064	Originally Posted by drkitten In order to believe in God, you would need evidence Perhaps... However, I do not need to believe in any gods Therfore, I do not need evidence for any gods If the (my) Universe stops making sense, I might revise my need to believe in a god (this is, I think, a common sequence of events when people are overwhelmed by the ordinary, day-to-day aspects of LTUAE)
	__________________ Sent from my Mac Book Wheel using Clickaclickaclickaclickatalk

23rd November 2009, 11:59 AM	#27
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Utility Muffin Research Kitchen Posts: 7,840	Originally Posted by riddle And you cannot persuade them [atheists] in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything... Such a belief is not a requirement of atheism. In fact, I have yet to encounter an atheist who believes such a thing. I suppose that if you believe in a hierarchy that places a god or gods at the very top, and perhaps some other supernatural being like angels or djinns just below them, and then humans below them, then one might assume that those who lack belief in the supernatural place humans at the top of a hierarchy. But this assumes that others even subscribe to such an arrangement in the first place.
	__________________ A cheetah coat fills up with steam She's such a scream

23rd November 2009, 12:09 PM	#28
HansMustermann Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,100	Originally Posted by riddle Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is. Riddle, we're talking a god that's described as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. In other words, he's already here, he already knows what proof could convince me and what won't, and he _can_ do it. (If there was stuff he can't do, it wouldn't be omnipotent, dont you think?) And it doesn't take him any effort either. (If you could put a finite non-zero amount of time and effort he needs, then another being could be conceived who can do it in half the time or effort. Hence, the absolute supreme power claim would kinda go lost.) So for a start, I'm not accepting anything that involves "But don’t say anything like..." Why not? He _can_ do whatever I think, can't he? Really, such a god wouldn't need to send a fundie to tell me why should I believe in him. And he wouldn't need such a question either. If he's omniscient, he already knows the answer. (And especially I love it when they're essentially telling me, "my god is already here, and he _could_ talk directly to you, and he already knows that my broken arguments aren't the kind that you'll believe... but he wants me to tell you that he loves you." Why? Would god get a nosebleed if he told me that personally? Is god a high-school nerd, or what? Because even by high-school standards, "tell X I love him/her" was considered socially inept and uncool. I mean, damn, I might even put out if he told me personally that he loves me ) But I digress... Anyway, if he wants me to believe, he can jolly well deal with me in person. I mean, he's already here, he already knows it, and he can do it. Failing that, well some visible and palpable evidence is exactly the thing I'd expect, not more sophistry and fallacies.

23rd November 2009, 12:10 PM	#29
Cleon King of the Pod People Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 14,362	Originally Posted by riddle And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? Shakira and Beyonce falling madly and completely in love with me.
	__________________ "Intolerance does not flourish without ignorance to feed it." - kittynh "A jerk who is right is still a jerk." - Ducky My blog

23rd November 2009, 12:23 PM	#30
Hokulele Official Nemesis TLA Dictatrix Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: To be determined. Posts: 21,349	Originally Posted by riddle And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? Shakira and Beyonce falling madly and completely in love with Cleon.
	__________________ You, madam, do not appear to be bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of us. - JoeyDonuts You should listen to the evil one - Don't try to understand it, just experience it. - AJM8125

23rd November 2009, 12:26 PM	#31
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 3,819	Originally Posted by riddle Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. Well, no, not exactly. It is the most important argument because it is the only argument. In the end, all of the arguments against theism boil down to this in the end. Quote: And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. Which there would be if this was not the case. Quote: And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is. Actually, that is a concrete answer. We need proof - say, Jesus descending from the heavens and turning my Dr. Pepper into wine, then turning my eyesight 20/20 and curing my asthma. As it is, there is no evidence for a god. What made you decide that there was?
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head." - Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

23rd November 2009, 12:31 PM	#32
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Utility Muffin Research Kitchen Posts: 7,840	Originally Posted by Cleon Shakira and Beyonce falling madly and completely in love with me. And each other?
	__________________ A cheetah coat fills up with steam She's such a scream

23rd November 2009, 12:34 PM	#33
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Calhan, CO, USA Posts: 1,233	Originally Posted by JAStewart Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In this case, I think: Absolute extraordinary claims require absolute extraordinary evidence. (To paraphrase and mix in 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'.) In other words, for something as unimaginable as an extra-universal being claiming absolute powers and creation of the universe it would require one big f'ing amazing pile of evidence.
	Last edited by kuroyume0161; 23rd November 2009 at 12:36 PM.

23rd November 2009, 12:42 PM	#34
PingOfPong Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 421	Ahh, a question I've often thought about as an atheiest. A miracle wouldn't do it for me. How do I know it's not a simple magician's trick? If it's not a magician's trick, how do I know that God did it? For all I know, it could be the work of some alien using advanced technology. Having lived in a mundane world, if I started seeing miracles everywhere then I would start questioning my own sanity. Anyway, I wouldn't respect anyone who wanted to gain my worship with flashy demonstrations of power. All that I need is for God, not some human putting words in God's mouth, to speak to me and give me some insight that I could be sure is godly and not petty. BTW, something like "love me or I will smite thee" is petty not Godly. I don't think that will ever happen of course. ETA: I was raised to be a Baptist. I didn't see any evidence for God but I saw plenty of evidence for many people's hysterical need to believe in a God or gods.
	Last edited by PingOfPong; 23rd November 2009 at 12:50 PM.

23rd November 2009, 12:54 PM	#35
Tormac Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 318	If the history of any major church (pick a religion) seemed to indicate that they were morally superior to the rest of society at the time, I would consider that there may be something to this God thing. If there is a church today that seemed to me to have a superior sense of morality to society at large, I would consider that there may be something to this god thing. I don’t expect signs from the heavens; I would consider it a major miracle to find large organized religious groups that seemed to practice what they preach.
Tormac Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 318	__________________ "I have been called bad before. Many have said I do things that are not correct to do. I don't believe in talk such as this. I am nice man, with happy feelings. All of the time." Words to live by, from Master Pain, err Betty