John Paul II Practiced Self-Flagellation

Freethinker · 23rd November 2009, 12:10 PM

...and they think that helps qualify him for sainthood.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-for-sins.html

Professor Yaffle · 23rd November 2009, 12:13 PM

Self flagellation is a bit weird, but you shouldn't beat yourself up about it.

brodski · 23rd November 2009, 12:19 PM

did he ever get any good at it?

Travis · 23rd November 2009, 12:24 PM

This has what to do with science, math, medicine and technology?

Madalch · 23rd November 2009, 12:27 PM

So JPII beat himself fairly often.

Well, he was celibate.....

Pure_Argent · 23rd November 2009, 12:28 PM

Kinky.

Abdul Alhazred · 23rd November 2009, 12:32 PM

Mere self-flagellation?

Piker!

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gall...of_ashura.html

Professor Yaffle · 23rd November 2009, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

Mere self-flagellation?

Piker!

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gall...of_ashura.html

What are you linking to those wimps for?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ay-ritual.html

wombatwal · 23rd November 2009, 12:50 PM

No, no, no, no, no.
This is not true.

He hired an alter boy to whip him.

Howie Felterbush · 23rd November 2009, 12:53 PM

Practice makes prefect.

ve2vfd · 23rd November 2009, 04:30 PM

Well, good for him as long we he whipped himself and not other people (well unless they WANTED to be whipped of course!)

Pat

Abdul Alhazred · 23rd November 2009, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

What are you linking to those wimps for?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ay-ritual.html

Freethinker · 23rd November 2009, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

This has what to do with science, math, medicine and technology?

Only as a testament to my inability to figure out which forum I'm in

shandyjan · 23rd November 2009, 06:05 PM

Does anyone else feel ikky at that report, and that its seen as a good thing?
Mental hiccup comes to mind rather than saintly behaviour to me. Certainly isnt a joy to be alive, that should be a sin!

ve2vfd · 23rd November 2009, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by shandyjan

Does anyone else feel ikky at that report, and that its seen as a good thing?

Nah, I don't really care enough about the religious aspect of his life for it to bother me...

Pat

jhunter1163 · 23rd November 2009, 06:45 PM

I thought it was self-flatulence...

quarky · 23rd November 2009, 07:02 PM

If a prostitute was doing the whipping, it sure would have a different flavor in the media.
Or, if he had been a 'cutter', the saintliness would be trashed. We are an odd lot, us humans.

Bikewer · 23rd November 2009, 07:14 PM

Yes, Max Mosely got in all sorts of trouble over a bit of such activity....

Sledge · 24th November 2009, 11:58 AM

Does this mean Max Mosely should be a saint?

Pure_Argent · 24th November 2009, 12:00 PM

Of course.

I Ratant · 24th November 2009, 05:35 PM

Saint Bernard... the man, not the dog.. is said to have been a flagellant.
The odor from the healing wounds was very obvious, I've read.

Olowkow · 24th November 2009, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Saint Bernard... the man, not the dog.. is said to have been a flagellant.
The odor from the healing wounds was very obvious, I've read.

That's got to be caused by "bacterial flagellum".

ve2vfd · 25th November 2009, 01:27 PM

Groan! That one was awefull!

Pat

P.J. Denyer · 26th November 2009, 06:58 AM

I really want to make a pithy comment, frankly any attempt at humour stalls in the face of the utter absudity of what all these people are inflicting on themselves. If they didn't 'do it for god' they'd be institutionalised for their own protection.

My question would be, are they nascient self-harmers finding an outlet through religion or is it purely a religiously inspired disfunction?

calebprime · 26th November 2009, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

I really want to make a pithy comment, frankly any attempt at humour stalls in the face of the utter absudity of what all these people are inflicting on themselves. If they didn't 'do it for god' they'd be institutionalised for their own protection.

My question would be, are they nascient self-harmers finding an outlet through religion or is it purely a religiously inspired disfunction?

First they came for John Paul, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Catholic.

Then they came for Percy Grainger, and I did not speak out, because I believe in clean shirts.

Then the 'for-your-own-protection' people came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me.

blobru · 26th November 2009, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by ve2vfd

Groan! That one was awefull!

Pat

Indeed: 50 lashes with a wet noodle!

Andronicus · 26th November 2009, 07:18 PM

Upon reading the article you have two "witnesses." A Polish nun "stationed" at Gondolfo Castle who claims the nuns heard the sound of the whip striking his body "several times" as her room was next to John Paul II's, and a Bishop who claims he heard about the flagellation from other people.

There is no clear evidence he did self-flagellate.
There is no clear evidence that if self-flagellation occurred, it was more violent or physically harmful than the use of a keisaku (stick) by a Zen Buddhist.
John Paul II was known to moan while praying (I believe I read it in George Weigel's Witness to Hope), and it is equally likely that the nun added in details over the hears.
Without clear evidence, my default opinion is to give the benefit of the doubt.

tsig · 26th November 2009, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Madalch

So JPII beat himself fairly often.

Well, he was celibate.....

So of course he had to resort to self abuse.

Puppycow · 26th November 2009, 11:28 PM

Once upon a time the Catholics were firmly against self-abuse.
Now it is saintly.

Polaris · 26th November 2009, 11:53 PM

Oddly enough, as he was picking up my slack in the self-abuse department (from my POV), I was picking up his (from his POV).

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

I thought it was self-flatulence...

Well, I believe it's physically impossible to get someone else to do that for you.

dafydd · 27th November 2009, 05:36 AM

Masochist to sadist- Whip me!
Sadist to masochist-No.

Sledge · 27th November 2009, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Andronicus

Upon reading the article you have two "witnesses." A Polish nun "stationed" at Gondolfo Castle who claims the nuns heard the sound of the whip striking his body "several times" as her room was next to John Paul II's, and a Bishop who claims he heard about the flagellation from other people.

There is no clear evidence he did self-flagellate.
There is no clear evidence that if self-flagellation occurred, it was more violent or physically harmful than the use of a keisaku (stick) by a Zen Buddhist.
John Paul II was known to moan while praying (I believe I read it in George Weigel's Witness to Hope), and it is equally likely that the nun added in details over the hears.
Without clear evidence, my default opinion is to give the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think it matters. It's not something to beat yourself up over if you're wrong.

Freethinker · 27th November 2009, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Andronicus

Upon reading the article you have two "witnesses." A Polish nun "stationed" at Gondolfo Castle who claims the nuns heard the sound of the whip striking his body "several times" as her room was next to John Paul II's, and a Bishop who claims he heard about the flagellation from other people.

Well, you really have two options here: One is that he did self-flagellate, and the second, and IMO even more bizarre, is that the nuns and people around him made up the story to improve his image.

Ausmerican · 27th November 2009, 12:58 PM

I am utterly shocked! I had no idea he was that flexible! It does explain the hunched back however and....oh, wait, that's self-fellating. My bad. Carry on then.
Anyone know if 'Whip It' by Devo was played at the service?

Andronicus · 27th November 2009, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Sledge

I don't think it matters. It's not something to beat yourself up over if you're wrong.

I was taken aback by your stinging remark.

bef · 27th November 2009, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

Self flagellation is a bit weird, but you shouldn't beat yourself up about it.

If only all priests would practice autofellatio and leave the children alone. Having ribs removed should be a part of their induction into priesthood.

Gord_in_Toronto · 28th November 2009, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Freethinker

Well, you really have two options here: One is that he did self-flagellate, and the second, and IMO even more bizarre, is that the nuns and people around him made up the story to improve his image.

Or, in the nun's case, she misinterpreted what she heard, being a nun et al.

ve2vfd · 28th November 2009, 03:15 PM

It does make one wonder if JP2 was listening to Devo's "Whip it" while doing the deed?

(Now thats an idea for a music video!)

Pat

23rd November 2009, 12:10 PM	#1
Freethinker Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,289	John Paul II Practiced Self-Flagellation ...and they think that helps qualify him for sainthood. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-for-sins.html
	__________________ “The stupid texts of the Bible - from which, be the talents of the preacher what they may, only stupid sermons can be preached” Thomas Paine

23rd November 2009, 12:13 PM	#2
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 7,132	Self flagellation is a bit weird, but you shouldn't beat yourself up about it.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that.

23rd November 2009, 12:19 PM	#3
brodski faceless bureaucrat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: the three Chiltern Hundreds of Stoke, Desborough and Burnham Posts: 11,789	did he ever get any good at it?
	__________________ ...and the story does suggest a part 2 to the Turing Test: 1. can machines behave like humans? 2. can we?

23rd November 2009, 12:24 PM	#4
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 6,834	This has what to do with science, math, medicine and technology?
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Nominate February Stundies. Vote in the January Stundie Finals!

23rd November 2009, 12:27 PM	#5
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 4,810	So JPII beat himself fairly often. Well, he was celibate.....
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius

23rd November 2009, 12:28 PM	#6
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 3,820	Kinky.
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head." - Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

23rd November 2009, 12:32 PM	#7
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 4,554	Mere self-flagellation? Piker! http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gall...of_ashura.html
	__________________ The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.

23rd November 2009, 12:35 PM	#8
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 7,132	Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred Mere self-flagellation? Piker! http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gall...of_ashura.html What are you linking to those wimps for? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ay-ritual.html
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that.

23rd November 2009, 12:50 PM	#9
wombatwal Thinker Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 222	No, no, no, no, no. This is not true. He hired an alter boy to whip him.
	__________________ http://wombatwal.redbubble.com/ http://wombatsramblings.blogspot.com/

23rd November 2009, 12:53 PM	#10
Howie Felterbush Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 457	Practice makes prefect.
	__________________ "More to the point, it is claimed that only stormtroopers can be that accurate, yet they're clearly demonstrated as being unable to hit a barn door while enclosed in a building constructed entirely out of barn doors, using special barn-door-seeking ammunition."-Cuddles

23rd November 2009, 04:30 PM	#11
ve2vfd Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 321	Well, good for him as long we he whipped himself and not other people (well unless they WANTED to be whipped of course!) Pat

23rd November 2009, 04:46 PM	#12
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 4,554	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle What are you linking to those wimps for? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ay-ritual.html
	__________________ The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.

23rd November 2009, 05:15 PM	#13
Freethinker Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,289	Originally Posted by Travis This has what to do with science, math, medicine and technology? Only as a testament to my inability to figure out which forum I'm in
	__________________ “The stupid texts of the Bible - from which, be the talents of the preacher what they may, only stupid sermons can be preached” Thomas Paine

23rd November 2009, 06:05 PM	#14
shandyjan Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 1,013	Does anyone else feel ikky at that report, and that its seen as a good thing? Mental hiccup comes to mind rather than saintly behaviour to me. Certainly isnt a joy to be alive, that should be a sin!
	__________________ Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth. ~Ludwig Börne

23rd November 2009, 06:30 PM	#15
ve2vfd Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 321	Originally Posted by shandyjan Does anyone else feel ikky at that report, and that its seen as a good thing? Nah, I don't really care enough about the religious aspect of his life for it to bother me... Pat

23rd November 2009, 06:45 PM	#16
jhunter1163 Beer-Swilling Semiliterate Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Room 118, Bohemian Grove Marriott Posts: 5,813	I thought it was self-flatulence...
	__________________ [Due to high ambient stupidity, I guess I need to spell it out: THIS IS A JOKE.] - JamesBlodgett The three essential components of being a "truther" are stupidity, dishonesty, and insanity. All are essential, but none is sufficient by itself. - FineWine

23rd November 2009, 07:02 PM	#17
quarky Title Free Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 6,082	If a prostitute was doing the whipping, it sure would have a different flavor in the media. Or, if he had been a 'cutter', the saintliness would be trashed. We are an odd lot, us humans.
quarky Title Free Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 6,082

23rd November 2009, 07:14 PM	#18
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 5,249	Yes, Max Mosely got in all sorts of trouble over a bit of such activity....

24th November 2009, 11:58 AM	#19
Sledge Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Coming to you live from the Sledge cave Posts: 903	Does this mean Max Mosely should be a saint?
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

24th November 2009, 12:00 PM	#20
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 3,820	Of course.
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head." - Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

24th November 2009, 05:35 PM	#21
I Ratant Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4,593	Saint Bernard... the man, not the dog.. is said to have been a flagellant. The odor from the healing wounds was very obvious, I've read.
I Ratant Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4,593

24th November 2009, 08:52 PM	#22
Olowkow Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,548	Originally Posted by I Ratant Saint Bernard... the man, not the dog.. is said to have been a flagellant. The odor from the healing wounds was very obvious, I've read. That's got to be caused by "bacterial flagellum".
Olowkow Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,548	__________________ It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. --Albert Einstein Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare

25th November 2009, 01:27 PM	#23
ve2vfd Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 321	Groan! That one was awefull! Pat
	__________________ If electricity comes from electrons then does morality come from morons?

26th November 2009, 06:58 AM	#24
P.J. Denyer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 180	I really want to make a pithy comment, frankly any attempt at humour stalls in the face of the utter absudity of what all these people are inflicting on themselves. If they didn't 'do it for god' they'd be institutionalised for their own protection. My question would be, are they nascient self-harmers finding an outlet through religion or is it purely a religiously inspired disfunction?
P.J. Denyer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 180

26th November 2009, 08:26 AM	#25
calebprime Somewhat Elitist Parasite Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,747	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer I really want to make a pithy comment, frankly any attempt at humour stalls in the face of the utter absudity of what all these people are inflicting on themselves. If they didn't 'do it for god' they'd be institutionalised for their own protection. My question would be, are they nascient self-harmers finding an outlet through religion or is it purely a religiously inspired disfunction? First they came for John Paul, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Catholic. Then they came for Percy Grainger, and I did not speak out, because I believe in clean shirts. Then the 'for-your-own-protection' people came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me.
	__________________ again: By the way have you anyone here aside from myself produced what to you is or should be the very first principle of clear thinking?--yrreg

26th November 2009, 09:23 AM	#26
blobru Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,281	Originally Posted by ve2vfd Groan! That one was awefull! Pat Indeed: 50 lashes with a wet noodle!
blobru Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,281	__________________ "Say to them, 'I am Nobody!'" -- Ulysses to the Cyclops "Never mind. I can't read." -- Hokulele to the Easter Bunny Last edited by blobru; 26th November 2009 at 09:26 AM.

26th November 2009, 07:18 PM	#27
Andronicus Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 242	Upon reading the article you have two "witnesses." A Polish nun "stationed" at Gondolfo Castle who claims the nuns heard the sound of the whip striking his body "several times" as her room was next to John Paul II's, and a Bishop who claims he heard about the flagellation from other people. There is no clear evidence he did self-flagellate. There is no clear evidence that if self-flagellation occurred, it was more violent or physically harmful than the use of a keisaku (stick) by a Zen Buddhist. John Paul II was known to moan while praying (I believe I read it in George Weigel's Witness to Hope), and it is equally likely that the nun added in details over the hears. Without clear evidence, my default opinion is to give the benefit of the doubt.
	__________________ In like a dimwit, out like a light. -- Walt Kelly

26th November 2009, 07:43 PM	#28
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 6,872	Originally Posted by Madalch So JPII beat himself fairly often. Well, he was celibate..... So of course he had to resort to self abuse.

26th November 2009, 11:28 PM	#29
Puppycow Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 6,323	Once upon a time the Catholics were firmly against self-abuse. Now it is saintly.
	__________________ I can't come to bed yet, honey. Someone on the Internet is wrong. -XKCD Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous Religions are God's way of telling us that He doesn't exist. -Pat Condell

26th November 2009, 11:53 PM	#30
Polaris Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,161	Oddly enough, as he was picking up my slack in the self-abuse department (from my POV), I was picking up his (from his POV). Originally Posted by jhunter1163 I thought it was self-flatulence... Well, I believe it's physically impossible to get someone else to do that for you.
Polaris Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 2,161	__________________ Dios le da pan a quien no tiene dientes. "3 out of 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse support Obama..." - megaresp Last edited by Polaris; 26th November 2009 at 11:56 PM.

27th November 2009, 05:36 AM	#31
dafydd Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,194	Masochist to sadist- Whip me! Sadist to masochist-No.
dafydd Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,194

27th November 2009, 06:04 AM	#32
Sledge Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Coming to you live from the Sledge cave Posts: 903	Originally Posted by Andronicus Upon reading the article you have two "witnesses." A Polish nun "stationed" at Gondolfo Castle who claims the nuns heard the sound of the whip striking his body "several times" as her room was next to John Paul II's, and a Bishop who claims he heard about the flagellation from other people. There is no clear evidence he did self-flagellate. There is no clear evidence that if self-flagellation occurred, it was more violent or physically harmful than the use of a keisaku (stick) by a Zen Buddhist. John Paul II was known to moan while praying (I believe I read it in George Weigel's Witness to Hope), and it is equally likely that the nun added in details over the hears. Without clear evidence, my default opinion is to give the benefit of the doubt. I don't think it matters. It's not something to beat yourself up over if you're wrong.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

27th November 2009, 09:54 AM	#33
Freethinker Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,289	Originally Posted by Andronicus Upon reading the article you have two "witnesses." A Polish nun "stationed" at Gondolfo Castle who claims the nuns heard the sound of the whip striking his body "several times" as her room was next to John Paul II's, and a Bishop who claims he heard about the flagellation from other people. Well, you really have two options here: One is that he did self-flagellate, and the second, and IMO even more bizarre, is that the nuns and people around him made up the story to improve his image.
	__________________ “The stupid texts of the Bible - from which, be the talents of the preacher what they may, only stupid sermons can be preached” Thomas Paine

27th November 2009, 12:58 PM	#34
Ausmerican Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,532	I am utterly shocked! I had no idea he was that flexible! It does explain the hunched back however and....oh, wait, that's self-fellating. My bad. Carry on then. Anyone know if 'Whip It' by Devo was played at the service?

27th November 2009, 09:15 PM	#35
Andronicus Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 242	Originally Posted by Sledge I don't think it matters. It's not something to beat yourself up over if you're wrong. I was taken aback by your stinging remark.
	__________________ In like a dimwit, out like a light. -- Walt Kelly Last edited by Andronicus; 27th November 2009 at 09:17 PM.

27th November 2009, 09:21 PM	#36
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle Self flagellation is a bit weird, but you shouldn't beat yourself up about it. If only all priests would practice autofellatio and leave the children alone. Having ribs removed should be a part of their induction into priesthood.
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18