Scientology's real scandals

bef · 25th November 2009, 07:04 AM

I have just begun to write a three part series of short essays on the real issues concerning the Church of Scientology.

The first highlights what sets Scientology apart from other religions and why the attitude of many atheists of having "bigger fish to fry" is simply an unreasonable position to take.

http://footbullet.net/2009/11/25/scientology-scandals/

The second discusses the injustices occuring within Scientology's Sea Org; awful living conditions, coerced abortion, punishment of members in penal colonies and so on

http://footbullet.net/2009/11/25/sci...-private-navy/

If somebody would please post the real links in this thread as I am unable to do so yet, that would be greatly appreciated.

Flo · 25th November 2009, 07:26 AM

I think it is much more important to expose the way $cientology runs its business rather than its silly beliefs.

The way to treat such an organisation is to sanction it for its frauds and wrongful treatment of its adepts, as does the French judiciary.

!Kaggen · 25th November 2009, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Flo

I think it is much more important to expose the way $cientology runs its business rather than its silly beliefs.

The way to treat such an organisation is to sanction it for its frauds and wrongful treatment of its adepts, as does the French judiciary.

I agree. Deal with the facts.

Wowbagger · 25th November 2009, 07:38 AM

The inner sanctum of Scientology seems to be getting more exposure, in general, these days.

I wonder if this is decreasing membership rates. Anyone have numbers on that?

Of course, there is also a good reason to think membership rates could be increasing: New recruits are often not told they are about to join "Scientology", specifically, but any number of other front-group-names claiming to improve your personality. As these aliases grow in number, we could see an overall increase in membership, unfortunately.

Fnord · 25th November 2009, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Flo

I think it is much more important to expose the way $cientology runs its business rather than its silly beliefs.

That would make a good fourth chapter, along with the others proposed in the OP. Expose everything about $cientology to the cold, hard light of public scrutiny.

Although the good would be a short chapter ... maybe a better fit as a footnote?

Wowbagger · 25th November 2009, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Although the good would be a short chapter ... maybe a better fit as a footnote?

Have you seen how they run their business? It deserves a good couple of pages at the very least!

!Kaggen · 25th November 2009, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

Have you seen how they run their business? It deserves a good couple of pages at the very least!

Now that is a chapter I could contribute to.
Especially the part were they take off work to get audited and lie about it

Pantaz · 25th November 2009, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by bef

I have just begun to write a three part series of short essays on the real issues concerning the Church of Scientology. ...

Have you seen the series published by the St. Petersburg Times?

bef · 25th November 2009, 03:50 PM

The third will be dealing with how Scientology deals with the public and the government. Spreading lies via frontgroups to our schools and governments about industries they oppose, recruiting the weak and vulnerable through rehabilitation programs that are merely fronts, infiltrating the IRS to regain tax exemption in the US, litigating the Australian Tax Office and finally dealing with dissent through fair game and legal pressure.

bef · 25th November 2009, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Pantaz

Have you seen the series published by the St. Petersburg Times?

Yes, I have. I'm fairly sure Aaron Saxton's story absolutely trumps that of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder who have come out only to talk about physical abuse they witnessed at the highest levels yet these two were directly involved in the coercion of women to have abortions, false imprisonment of staff, cover-up of the death of Lisa McPherson (Marty admits his involvement in destroying evidence but doesn't expose any new details) and more atrocities that they simply are not talking about.

At least Aaron is being completely open about his own involvement.

Marty Rathbun, on the other hand, thinks the only problem with Scientology is David Miscavige and if Miscavige is overthrown and he himself got to run the show, he'd be able to "fix" all the problems by returning Scientology to standard Hubbard tech. The reality is, Hubbard's tech is the problem - if anyone executes it as stated, these problems will arise.

Calculon · 26th November 2009, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by bef

Yes, I have. I'm fairly sure Aaron Saxton's story absolutely trumps that of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder who have come out only to talk about physical abuse they witnessed at the highest levels yet these two were directly involved in the coercion of women to have abortions, false imprisonment of staff, cover-up of the death of Lisa McPherson (Marty admits his involvement in destroying evidence but doesn't expose any new details) and more atrocities that they simply are not talking about.

At least Aaron is being completely open about his own involvement.

Marty Rathbun, on the other hand, thinks the only problem with Scientology is David Miscavige and if Miscavige is overthrown and he himself got to run the show, he'd be able to "fix" all the problems by returning Scientology to standard Hubbard tech. The reality is, Hubbard's tech is the problem - if anyone executes it as stated, these problems will arise.

Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder will only talk about things where the statute of limitations has expired, or they are guaranteed immunity.
They are not innocent victims and have much to answer for.

At least Aaron says he did bad things, takes some personal responsibility, and is providing valuable info to critics. And he says scientology is a scam. Marty still "believes" that Hubbard and the tech were fine, it is Miscavige that is the problem. All the abuses started with Hubbard....there is nothing redeeming about scientology. Any drills or minor self help workings in scientology can be found elsewhere.

bef · 27th November 2009, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by Calculon

Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder will only talk about things where the statute of limitations has expired, or they are guaranteed immunity.
They are not innocent victims and have much to answer for.

At least Aaron says he did bad things, takes some personal responsibility, and is providing valuable info to critics. And he says scientology is a scam. Marty still "believes" that Hubbard and the tech were fine, it is Miscavige that is the problem. All the abuses started with Hubbard....there is nothing redeeming about scientology. Any drills or minor self help workings in scientology can be found elsewhere.

I am in complete agreement with you.

Calculon · 27th November 2009, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by bef

I am in complete agreement with you.

(you already know the people I am writing about, the following is just my take on them)

I remember when Rinder was the spokesperson for scientology and seeing him on TV. He always appeared in control and one would feel worried about crossing him. Like a car salesman/press secretary/bulldog. He knows a lot, and did a lot.
I was actually surprised that he spoke out to the SP times. I got the impression from (unsubstantiated, but believable posts online) that scientology searched him out prior to the SP times articles were to come out, and were so heavy-handed with him to keep quiet, that rather than staying hidden like he had been, he decided to spill a few beans.

As an aside, I think Rinder was more effective as a spokesperson than the current one, Tommy Davis (son of Anne Archer).

To me, it is like comparing Ari Fleischer as the Bush Press Secretary to Scottie McClellan. But Rinder was at least smart enough that when he and Tommy Davis "blew" (left the Sea Org) in 2007 after their failed attempt to block the airing of a critical BBC show, he never returned, whereas Tommy was pulled back in. Haven't seen Tommy Davis in a few weeks...I wonder what he is up to.

bef · 27th November 2009, 09:11 PM

I am very cynical of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder. In the SP Times articles, neither really brought up any of the most important human rights abuses and problems of the Church which, even if they were gagged, blindfolded and had ear plugs in, they would've been well aware of.

Rathbun especially seems to want to overthrow Miscavige and claim his rightful place as COB and leader of the SO where he will restore the Church of Scientology to it's former glory. Rathbun needs to realise that the tech is ******** and worked just as effectively (read: not at all) under LRH as DM, and that if he seriously has an issue with the treatment of Scientologists then clearly striving to take up a posting in which he would have to, once again, execute clear policies which demand such treatment is not the right idea.

Calculon · 27th November 2009, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by bef

I am very cynical of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder. In the SP Times articles, neither really brought up any of the most important human rights abuses and problems of the Church which, even if they were gagged, blindfolded and had ear plugs in, they would've been well aware of.

Rathbun especially seems to want to overthrow Miscavige and claim his rightful place as COB and leader of the SO where he will restore the Church of Scientology to it's former glory. Rathbun needs to realise that the tech is ******** and worked just as effectively (read: not at all) under LRH as DM, and that if he seriously has an issue with the treatment of Scientologists then clearly striving to take up a posting in which he would have to, once again, execute clear policies which demand such treatment is not the right idea.

Rathbun is critical of ex-scientologists who have thrown out the tech with Miscavige...or who disparage Hubbard. He certainly edits comments to his blog a lot. He had a lot of tentative support when he first gave his interview to the SP Times, but much of that has gone away. People are definitely paying attention to any moves he makes towards taking over the remainder of the empire. He says he has no desire to, but that remains to be seen.

I can see that exes sometimes go to the Freezone type groups because it is familiar, but it still has the woo. I really only talk to exes who made a complete break back to reality. They are no longer deluded as to what kind of person Hubbard really was.

bef · 28th November 2009, 09:33 AM

Part III: Scientology's war on reality
http://footbullet.net/2009/11/28/sci...ar-on-reality/
This gives an idea of the lengths the Church of Scientology will go to in order to suppress dissent, silence critics and ensure their longevity.

Darth Rotor · 30th November 2009, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Calculon

At least Aaron says he did bad things, takes some personal responsibility, and is providing valuable info to critics. And he says scientology is a scam. Marty still "believes" that Hubbard and the tech were fine, it is Miscavige that is the problem. All the abuses started with Hubbard....there is nothing redeeming about scientology. Any drills or minor self help workings in scientology can be found elsewhere.

Do they have to wait for the arrival of the Twelfth Clear for the second coming of Xenu?

(This joke is an oblique reference to the factionalism and splitting that went on after The Prophet died, and the Shia Twelfth Imam/Mahdi deal).

25th November 2009, 07:04 AM	#1
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18	Scientology's real scandals I have just begun to write a three part series of short essays on the real issues concerning the Church of Scientology. The first highlights what sets Scientology apart from other religions and why the attitude of many atheists of having "bigger fish to fry" is simply an unreasonable position to take. http://footbullet.net/2009/11/25/scientology-scandals/ The second discusses the injustices occuring within Scientology's Sea Org; awful living conditions, coerced abortion, punishment of members in penal colonies and so on http://footbullet.net/2009/11/25/sci...-private-navy/ If somebody would please post the real links in this thread as I am unable to do so yet, that would be greatly appreciated.
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18	Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 25th November 2009 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Fixed links

25th November 2009, 07:26 AM	#2
Flo Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Massongy, France Posts: 1,967	I think it is much more important to expose the way $cientology runs its business rather than its silly beliefs. The way to treat such an organisation is to sanction it for its frauds and wrongful treatment of its adepts, as does the French judiciary.
	__________________ "Let me explain the order of things for you. There's the aristocracy, the upper class, middle class, working class, dumb animals, waiters, creeping things, head lice, people who eat packet soup, and then you." (Chef)

25th November 2009, 07:33 AM	#3
!Kaggen Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Home Posts: 1,182	Originally Posted by Flo I think it is much more important to expose the way $cientology runs its business rather than its silly beliefs. The way to treat such an organisation is to sanction it for its frauds and wrongful treatment of its adepts, as does the French judiciary. I agree. Deal with the facts.
	__________________ the source

25th November 2009, 07:38 AM	#4
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 7,725	The inner sanctum of Scientology seems to be getting more exposure, in general, these days. I wonder if this is decreasing membership rates. Anyone have numbers on that? Of course, there is also a good reason to think membership rates could be increasing: New recruits are often not told they are about to join "Scientology", specifically, but any number of other front-group-names claiming to improve your personality. As these aliases grow in number, we could see an overall increase in membership, unfortunately.
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC 2009: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ Photos and Stuff Now Available A conference on science and skepticism where *you* could be a presenter!

25th November 2009, 08:06 AM	#5
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pantopia Posts: 3,915	Originally Posted by Flo I think it is much more important to expose the way $cientology runs its business rather than its silly beliefs. That would make a good fourth chapter, along with the others proposed in the OP. Expose everything about $cientology to the cold, hard light of public scrutiny. Although the good would be a short chapter ... maybe a better fit as a footnote?
	__________________ "When I say, "Evidence, Please?" I am not asking for another statement of faith. I am asking for the evidence that supports that faith. Faith proves nothing." -- Fnord, Pointing Out the Obvious to the Oblivious Since 1957. Last edited by Fnord; 25th November 2009 at 08:07 AM.

25th November 2009, 01:58 PM	#6
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 7,725	Originally Posted by Fnord Although the good would be a short chapter ... maybe a better fit as a footnote? Have you seen how they run their business? It deserves a good couple of pages at the very least!
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC 2009: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ Photos and Stuff Now Available A conference on science and skepticism where *you* could be a presenter!

25th November 2009, 02:12 PM	#7
!Kaggen Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Home Posts: 1,182	Originally Posted by Wowbagger Have you seen how they run their business? It deserves a good couple of pages at the very least! Now that is a chapter I could contribute to. Especially the part were they take off work to get audited and lie about it
	__________________ the source

25th November 2009, 03:38 PM	#8
Pantaz Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Van Nuys, CA Posts: 469	Originally Posted by bef I have just begun to write a three part series of short essays on the real issues concerning the Church of Scientology. ... Have you seen the series published by the St. Petersburg Times?

25th November 2009, 03:50 PM	#9
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18	The third will be dealing with how Scientology deals with the public and the government. Spreading lies via frontgroups to our schools and governments about industries they oppose, recruiting the weak and vulnerable through rehabilitation programs that are merely fronts, infiltrating the IRS to regain tax exemption in the US, litigating the Australian Tax Office and finally dealing with dissent through fair game and legal pressure.
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18

25th November 2009, 03:54 PM	#10
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18	Originally Posted by Pantaz Have you seen the series published by the St. Petersburg Times? Yes, I have. I'm fairly sure Aaron Saxton's story absolutely trumps that of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder who have come out only to talk about physical abuse they witnessed at the highest levels yet these two were directly involved in the coercion of women to have abortions, false imprisonment of staff, cover-up of the death of Lisa McPherson (Marty admits his involvement in destroying evidence but doesn't expose any new details) and more atrocities that they simply are not talking about. At least Aaron is being completely open about his own involvement. Marty Rathbun, on the other hand, thinks the only problem with Scientology is David Miscavige and if Miscavige is overthrown and he himself got to run the show, he'd be able to "fix" all the problems by returning Scientology to standard Hubbard tech. The reality is, Hubbard's tech is the problem - if anyone executes it as stated, these problems will arise.
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18

26th November 2009, 04:54 AM	#11
Calculon Scholar Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hollywood-ish Posts: 94	Originally Posted by bef Yes, I have. I'm fairly sure Aaron Saxton's story absolutely trumps that of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder who have come out only to talk about physical abuse they witnessed at the highest levels yet these two were directly involved in the coercion of women to have abortions, false imprisonment of staff, cover-up of the death of Lisa McPherson (Marty admits his involvement in destroying evidence but doesn't expose any new details) and more atrocities that they simply are not talking about. At least Aaron is being completely open about his own involvement. Marty Rathbun, on the other hand, thinks the only problem with Scientology is David Miscavige and if Miscavige is overthrown and he himself got to run the show, he'd be able to "fix" all the problems by returning Scientology to standard Hubbard tech. The reality is, Hubbard's tech is the problem - if anyone executes it as stated, these problems will arise. Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder will only talk about things where the statute of limitations has expired, or they are guaranteed immunity. They are not innocent victims and have much to answer for. At least Aaron says he did bad things, takes some personal responsibility, and is providing valuable info to critics. And he says scientology is a scam. Marty still "believes" that Hubbard and the tech were fine, it is *Miscavige* that is the problem. All the abuses started with Hubbard....there is nothing redeeming about scientology. Any drills or minor self help workings in scientology can be found elsewhere.

27th November 2009, 01:00 AM	#12
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18	Originally Posted by Calculon Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder will only talk about things where the statute of limitations has expired, or they are guaranteed immunity. They are not innocent victims and have much to answer for. At least Aaron says he did bad things, takes some personal responsibility, and is providing valuable info to critics. And he says scientology is a scam. Marty still "believes" that Hubbard and the tech were fine, it is *Miscavige* that is the problem. All the abuses started with Hubbard....there is nothing redeeming about scientology. Any drills or minor self help workings in scientology can be found elsewhere. I am in complete agreement with you.
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18

27th November 2009, 02:52 AM	#13
Calculon Scholar Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hollywood-ish Posts: 94	Originally Posted by bef I am in complete agreement with you. (you already know the people I am writing about, the following is just my take on them) I remember when Rinder was the spokesperson for scientology and seeing him on TV. He always appeared in control and one would feel worried about crossing him. Like a car salesman/press secretary/bulldog. He knows a lot, and did a lot. I was actually surprised that he spoke out to the SP times. I got the impression from (unsubstantiated, but believable posts online) that scientology searched him out prior to the SP times articles were to come out, and were so heavy-handed with him to keep quiet, that rather than staying hidden like he had been, he decided to spill a few beans. As an aside, I think Rinder was more effective as a spokesperson than the current one, Tommy Davis (son of Anne Archer). To me, it is like comparing Ari Fleischer as the Bush Press Secretary to Scottie McClellan. But Rinder was at least smart enough that when he and Tommy Davis "blew" (left the Sea Org) in 2007 after their failed attempt to block the airing of a critical BBC show, he never returned, whereas Tommy was pulled back in. Haven't seen Tommy Davis in a few weeks...I wonder what he is up to.

27th November 2009, 09:11 PM	#14
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18	I am very cynical of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder. In the SP Times articles, neither really brought up any of the most important human rights abuses and problems of the Church which, even if they were gagged, blindfolded and had ear plugs in, they would've been well aware of. Rathbun especially seems to want to overthrow Miscavige and claim his rightful place as COB and leader of the SO where he will restore the Church of Scientology to it's former glory. Rathbun needs to realise that the tech is ******** and worked just as effectively (read: not at all) under LRH as DM, and that if he seriously has an issue with the treatment of Scientologists then clearly striving to take up a posting in which he would have to, once again, execute clear policies which demand such treatment is not the right idea.
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18

27th November 2009, 10:42 PM	#15
Calculon Scholar Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hollywood-ish Posts: 94	Originally Posted by bef I am very cynical of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder. In the SP Times articles, neither really brought up any of the most important human rights abuses and problems of the Church which, even if they were gagged, blindfolded and had ear plugs in, they would've been well aware of. Rathbun especially seems to want to overthrow Miscavige and claim his rightful place as COB and leader of the SO where he will restore the Church of Scientology to it's former glory. Rathbun needs to realise that the tech is ******** and worked just as effectively (read: not at all) under LRH as DM, and that if he seriously has an issue with the treatment of Scientologists then clearly striving to take up a posting in which he would have to, once again, execute clear policies which demand such treatment is not the right idea. Rathbun is critical of ex-scientologists who have thrown out the tech with Miscavige...or who disparage Hubbard. He certainly edits comments to his blog a lot. He had a lot of tentative support when he first gave his interview to the SP Times, but much of that has gone away. People are definitely paying attention to any moves he makes towards taking over the remainder of the empire. He says he has no desire to, but that remains to be seen. I can see that exes sometimes go to the Freezone type groups because it is familiar, but it still has the woo. I really only talk to exes who made a complete break back to reality. They are no longer deluded as to what kind of person Hubbard really was.

28th November 2009, 09:33 AM	#16
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18	Part III: Scientology's war on reality http://footbullet.net/2009/11/28/sci...ar-on-reality/ This gives an idea of the lengths the Church of Scientology will go to in order to suppress dissent, silence critics and ensure their longevity.
bef New Blood Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18

30th November 2009, 12:52 PM	#17
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 26,819	Originally Posted by Calculon At least Aaron says he did bad things, takes some personal responsibility, and is providing valuable info to critics. And he says scientology is a scam. Marty still "believes" that Hubbard and the tech were fine, it is *Miscavige* that is the problem. All the abuses started with Hubbard....there is nothing redeeming about scientology. Any drills or minor self help workings in scientology can be found elsewhere. Do they have to wait for the arrival of the Twelfth Clear for the second coming of Xenu? (This joke is an oblique reference to the factionalism and splitting that went on after The Prophet died, and the Shia Twelfth Imam/Mahdi deal).
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is some one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton____"Atheism is no safeguard against stupidity."--The Atheist____If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok____ "Your onus is aimed in the wrong direction." -- Cleon