Russian train crash: Terrorist attack?

Undesired Walrus · 28th November 2009, 05:01 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8383960.stm

Quote:

The authorities in Russia are treating the crash of an express train in which at least 25 people were killed as a possible act of terrorism.

A crater has been found near the track, raising suspicions that a bomb may have been used to derail the train.

Bikewer · 28th November 2009, 07:39 AM

It's certainly not improbable, what with the Chechen situation and all.....However, the Russians are also quite fond of labeling any disaster "terrorism" for political purposes.

theprestige · 28th November 2009, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

It's certainly not improbable, what with the Chechen situation and all.....However, the Russians are also quite fond of labeling any disaster "terrorism" for political purposes.

[citation needed]

I mean, any disaster? Seems like, since the fall of the Soviet Union, the Russian government has been fond of using the "terrorism" label for maybe three kinds of disasters: Actual terrorism, guerrilla insurgency, and alleged false-flag terrorism.

Undesired Walrus · 28th November 2009, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

the Russians are also quite fond of labeling any disaster "terrorism" for political purposes.

When did this last happen?

ETA: Confirmed terrorist attack: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8383960.stm

Skeptic · 28th November 2009, 10:39 AM

Possibly terrorism, of course. Proven to be terrorism, no -- at least not yet. If nothing else, terrorist organizations usually take responsibility for such attacks. Doesn't seem to have happened here.

Let's wait and see.

the_eye · 28th November 2009, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Possibly terrorism, of course. Proven to be terrorism, no -- at least not yet. If nothing else, terrorist organizations usually take responsibility for such attacks. Doesn't seem to have happened here.

Let's wait and see.

I heard some crazy Neo-Nazis haven taken responsibility.

I Google translated an article: Source

theprestige · 28th November 2009, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by the_eye

I heard some crazy Neo-Nazis haven taken responsibility.

I Google translated an article: Source

Huh.

I'd call "Godwin" on you, but apparently they are quite literally neo-Nazis.

ETA: I wonder if the state officials were the targets, or just collateral damage.

the_eye · 28th November 2009, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Huh.

I'd call "Godwin" on you, but apparently they are quite literally neo-Nazis.

ETA: I wonder if the state officials were the targets, or just collateral damage.

Probably the target. Russian Neo-Nazis have a history of extremely violent attacks against the government and minorities.

Skeptic · 28th November 2009, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Huh.

I'd call "Godwin" on you, but apparently they are quite literally neo-Nazis.

Godwin doesn't count when discussing actual Nazis or neo-Nazis.

This makes it more likely it is indeed terrorism, but not certain: terrorist organization had been known to "take responsibility" for accidents.

In Israel there was a joke: "Suha Arafat [Yasser Arafat's wife] is pregnant. The Islamic Jihad took responsibility for the act."

the_eye · 29th November 2009, 03:35 AM

"[We are] a white man's al-Qaeda," he says. "We don't care how many [ethnic minorities] end up dead. The more, the better. The time of our jihad has come."

A Time's article on Russian Neo-nazis

the National Anti-Terrorist Committee (NAK, the high-level inter-departmental agency that coordinates the anti-terrorist activities of the security services) named neo-nazi youth groups as "one of the major terrorist threats" to Russia.

More info.

INRM · 29th November 2009, 03:59 PM

I can only imagine Obama's going to take advantage of this even in the US.

Take anybody who holds any view that is considered conservative, lump them with right-wing militants, and white-supremacists, then label all domestic terrorists.

INRM

Thunder · 29th November 2009, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

I can only imagine Obama's going to take advantage of this even in the US.

Take anybody who holds any view that is considered conservative, lump them with right-wing militants, and white-supremacists, then label all domestic terrorists.

why are soo many of your posts just CT cliches?

dudalb · 30th November 2009, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

I can only imagine Obama's going to take advantage of this even in the US.

Take anybody who holds any view that is considered conservative, lump them with right-wing militants, and white-supremacists, then label all domestic terrorists.

INRM

Paranoid Much?
FUnny thing is this guy was just as Paranoid when Bush was in office.

GreyICE · 1st December 2009, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

I can only imagine Obama's going to take advantage of this even in the US.

Take anybody who holds any view that is considered conservative, lump them with right-wing militants, and white-supremacists, then label all domestic terrorists.

INRM

No.

Skeptic · 1st December 2009, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

I can only imagine Obama's going to take advantage of this even in the US.

Take anybody who holds any view that is considered conservative, lump them with right-wing militants, and white-supremacists, then label all domestic terrorists.

INRM

Makes sense to me. We all know of Obama's nefarious plans for taking over the USA by through control were all in place already... but he just had to wait for a bizarre attack by an obscure racist group half a world away to put them into action.

DavidJames · 1st December 2009, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

I can only imagine...

Yes, that's pretty much all you can do.

DavidJames · 1st December 2009, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Paranoid Much?
FUnny thing is this guy was just as Paranoid when Bush was in office.

Indeed...Paranoia, much like the CT gene^tm is apolitical.

dudalb · 1st December 2009, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Indeed...Paranoia, much like the CT gene^tm is apolitical.

I would argue that the CT gene is just a subset of the Paranoia gene. I have yet to meet a hard line Cter who was not paranoid as well.

Skeptic · 3rd December 2009, 10:23 AM

Now, a Islamist group is claiming responsibility. I know, I know: "Islamic group claims responsibility for terrorist attack" is the equivalent of "Dog bits man", but still.

Darth Rotor · 3rd December 2009, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Now, a Islamist group is claiming responsibility. I know, I know: "Islamic group claims responsibility for terrorist attack" is the equivalent of "Dog bits man", but still.

In a nod to our dearly departed Claus Larsen: I wonder if these Islamic terrorists will provide evidence to support their claim. They might be stealing somebody else's glory.

(Claus is AFAIK still alive, but he's gone from our forum world).

Skeptic · 3rd December 2009, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

In a nod to our dearly departed Claus Larsen: I wonder if these Islamic terrorists will provide evidence to support their claim. They might be stealing somebody else's glory.

As I said, that's a possibility. They might be stealing an accident's glory, too.

It happened in Israel a few years back that, I think, five or six people were injured in an explosion. Deeper investigation into the cause of the explosion was indicated after both Islamic Jihad and Hamas (I think) took responsibility for the "brave attack on the evil zionist occupiers". Turned out the explosion was due to misfired mortar shell by an Israeli soldier.

Gave me an idea:

Israel has a few hundreds of dead yearly from accidents (road, work, military, etc.) Perhaps the Palestinian organizations can be persuaded to just claim responsibility for those deaths, on a rotating basis. They get to be responsible for dead Jews without lifting a finger, Israel has some peace and quiet, everybody happy.

28th November 2009, 05:01 AM	#1
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,884	Russian train crash: Terrorist attack? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8383960.stm Quote: The authorities in Russia are treating the crash of an express train in which at least 25 people were killed as a possible act of terrorism. A crater has been found near the track, raising suspicions that a bomb may have been used to derail the train.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

28th November 2009, 07:47 AM	#3
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,564	Originally Posted by Bikewer It's certainly not improbable, what with the Chechen situation and all.....However, the Russians are also quite fond of labeling any disaster "terrorism" for political purposes. [citation needed] I mean, any disaster? Seems like, since the fall of the Soviet Union, the Russian government has been fond of using the "terrorism" label for maybe three kinds of disasters: Actual terrorism, guerrilla insurgency, and alleged false-flag terrorism.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,564

28th November 2009, 08:36 AM	#4
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,884	Originally Posted by Bikewer the Russians are also quite fond of labeling any disaster "terrorism" for political purposes. When did this last happen? ETA: Confirmed terrorist attack: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8383960.stm
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945 Last edited by Undesired Walrus; 28th November 2009 at 08:37 AM.

28th November 2009, 05:27 PM	#6
the_eye Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 55	Originally Posted by Skeptic Possibly terrorism, of course. Proven to be terrorism, no -- at least not yet. If nothing else, terrorist organizations usually take responsibility for such attacks. Doesn't seem to have happened here. Let's wait and see. I heard some crazy Neo-Nazis haven taken responsibility. I Google translated an article: Source
	Last edited by the_eye; 28th November 2009 at 05:29 PM.

28th November 2009, 05:48 PM	#7
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,564	Originally Posted by the_eye I heard some crazy Neo-Nazis haven taken responsibility. I Google translated an article: Source Huh. I'd call "Godwin" on you, but apparently they are quite literally neo-Nazis. ETA: I wonder if the state officials were the targets, or just collateral damage.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,564

28th November 2009, 07:39 AM	#2
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,522	It's certainly not improbable, what with the Chechen situation and all.....However, the Russians are also quite fond of labeling any disaster "terrorism" for political purposes.

28th November 2009, 10:39 AM	#5
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Possibly terrorism, of course. Proven to be terrorism, no -- at least not yet. If nothing else, terrorist organizations usually take responsibility for such attacks. Doesn't seem to have happened here. Let's wait and see.

28th November 2009, 07:57 PM	#8
the_eye Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 55	Originally Posted by theprestige Huh. I'd call "Godwin" on you, but apparently they are quite literally neo-Nazis. ETA: I wonder if the state officials were the targets, or just collateral damage. Probably the target. Russian Neo-Nazis have a history of extremely violent attacks against the government and minorities.

28th November 2009, 09:25 PM	#9
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by theprestige Huh. I'd call "Godwin" on you, but apparently they are quite literally neo-Nazis. Godwin doesn't count when discussing actual Nazis or neo-Nazis. This makes it more likely it is indeed terrorism, but not certain: terrorist organization had been known to "take responsibility" for accidents. In Israel there was a joke: "Suha Arafat [Yasser Arafat's wife] is pregnant. The Islamic Jihad took responsibility for the act."

29th November 2009, 03:35 AM	#10
the_eye Scholar Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 55	"[We are] a white man's al-Qaeda," he says. "We don't care how many [ethnic minorities] end up dead. The more, the better. The time of our jihad has come." A Time's article on Russian Neo-nazis the National Anti-Terrorist Committee (NAK, the high-level inter-departmental agency that coordinates the anti-terrorist activities of the security services) named neo-nazi youth groups as "one of the major terrorist threats" to Russia. More info.

29th November 2009, 03:59 PM	#11
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	I can only imagine Obama's going to take advantage of this even in the US. Take anybody who holds any view that is considered conservative, lump them with right-wing militants, and white-supremacists, then label all domestic terrorists. INRM
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490

29th November 2009, 07:10 PM	#12
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by INRM I can only imagine Obama's going to take advantage of this even in the US. Take anybody who holds any view that is considered conservative, lump them with right-wing militants, and white-supremacists, then label all domestic terrorists. why are soo many of your posts just CT cliches?

30th November 2009, 05:30 PM	#13
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,792	Originally Posted by INRM I can only imagine Obama's going to take advantage of this even in the US. Take anybody who holds any view that is considered conservative, lump them with right-wing militants, and white-supremacists, then label all domestic terrorists. INRM Paranoid Much? FUnny thing is this guy was just as Paranoid when Bush was in office.

1st December 2009, 12:45 PM	#14
GreyICE Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,173	Originally Posted by INRM I can only imagine Obama's going to take advantage of this even in the US. Take anybody who holds any view that is considered conservative, lump them with right-wing militants, and white-supremacists, then label all domestic terrorists. INRM No.
GreyICE Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,173

1st December 2009, 12:54 PM	#15
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by INRM I can only imagine Obama's going to take advantage of this even in the US. Take anybody who holds any view that is considered conservative, lump them with right-wing militants, and white-supremacists, then label all domestic terrorists. INRM Makes sense to me. We all know of Obama's nefarious plans for taking over the USA by through control were all in place already... but he just had to wait for a bizarre attack by an obscure racist group half a world away to put them into action.

1st December 2009, 12:59 PM	#16
DavidJames Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 7,084	Originally Posted by INRM I can only imagine... Yes, that's pretty much all you can do.
	__________________ I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars. Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.

1st December 2009, 01:01 PM	#17
DavidJames Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 7,084	Originally Posted by dudalb Paranoid Much? FUnny thing is this guy was just as Paranoid when Bush was in office. Indeed...Paranoia, much like the CT gene^tm is apolitical.
	__________________ I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars. Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.

1st December 2009, 02:21 PM	#18
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,792	Originally Posted by DavidJames Indeed...Paranoia, much like the CT gene^tm is apolitical. I would argue that the CT gene is just a subset of the Paranoia gene. I have yet to meet a hard line Cter who was not paranoid as well.

3rd December 2009, 10:23 AM	#19
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Now, a Islamist group is claiming responsibility. I know, I know: "Islamic group claims responsibility for terrorist attack" is the equivalent of "Dog bits man", but still.

3rd December 2009, 10:34 AM	#20
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by Skeptic Now, a Islamist group is claiming responsibility. I know, I know: "Islamic group claims responsibility for terrorist attack" is the equivalent of "Dog bits man", but still. In a nod to our dearly departed Claus Larsen: I wonder if these Islamic terrorists will provide evidence to support their claim. They might be stealing somebody else's glory. (Claus is AFAIK still alive, but he's gone from our forum world).
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

3rd December 2009, 01:08 PM	#21
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor In a nod to our dearly departed Claus Larsen: I wonder if these Islamic terrorists will provide evidence to support their claim. They might be stealing somebody else's glory. As I said, that's a possibility. They might be stealing an accident's glory, too. It happened in Israel a few years back that, I think, five or six people were injured in an explosion. Deeper investigation into the cause of the explosion was indicated after both Islamic Jihad and Hamas (I think) took responsibility for the "brave attack on the evil zionist occupiers". Turned out the explosion was due to misfired mortar shell by an Israeli soldier. Gave me an idea: Israel has a few hundreds of dead yearly from accidents (road, work, military, etc.) Perhaps the Palestinian organizations can be persuaded to just claim responsibility for those deaths, on a rotating basis. They get to be responsible for dead Jews without lifting a finger, Israel has some peace and quiet, everybody happy.
	Last edited by Skeptic; 3rd December 2009 at 01:10 PM.