[Merged] Swiss to ban the building of Islamic minarets

UndercoverElephant · 29th November 2009, 06:22 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8385069.stm

Quote:

Projections from exit polls suggest that voters in Switzerland have backed a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets.

The result is not yet official, but the BBC's correspondent in Berne says if it is confirmed, it would be a surprise.

The proposal was backed by the Swiss People's Party (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which claims minarets are a sign of Islamisation.

Opponents say a ban would discriminate and that the ballot has stirred hatred.

Islam and European Secular Liberalism remain on course for a head-on collision. Islam continually "stirs hatred". It is fundamentally non-multicultural and therefore fundamentally incompatible with modern European civilisation. The politicians are too scared to tackle this problem, but in Switzerland it only takes 1000 votes to force a referendum. The people have spoken.

Cainkane1 · 29th November 2009, 06:25 AM

Muslims built a Mosque here in AtlantaGa on 14th street. Spires, minerets with gold plated domes. It looks like something out of Arabian nights but since my city has so much out of place architecture the Mosque oddly fits. A Hindu Temple is also going up.

I'm moving to the suburbs.

UndercoverElephant · 29th November 2009, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Muslims built a Mosque here in AtlantaGa on 14th street. Spires, minerets with gold plated domes. It looks like something out of Arabian nights but since my city has so much out of place architecture the Mosque oddly fits. A Hindu Temple is also going up.

I'm moving to the suburbs.

I'm not so bothered about Hindu Temples. The biggest Hindu Temple outside India is in London, and it did not cause the same sort of reaction. All religions are not the same. Hinduism is the best example of a religion which is multicultural and tolerant of other faiths. There is no sense that the Hindus are trying to take over the world or that Hindu culture is incompatible with Western secular liberalism. The same cannot be said for Islam.

UndercoverElephant · 29th November 2009, 06:36 AM

Hinduism is a very old religion (older than Christianity, much older than Islam) which has always had to be flexible enough to accomodate a wide range of specific beliefs and which has had relatively few problems dealing with most aspects of modernity. Islam is like Christianity was before the enlightenment, the reformation and the scientific revolution - totally intolerant and bent on imposing itself anywhere and everywhere that muslims go. I believe that the Islamic world is eventually going to be forced to change, although this can only happen because of changes inside Islam rather than by being imposed by outsiders. However, I don't see how it helps for people to pretend that the problem doesn't exist. Every time I hear somebody saying that Islam is "really" a peaceful and tolerant religion it just makes me cringe. It is not. As things stand, violence, intolerance and mediaevil ethics are an integral part of Islam.

Limbo · 29th November 2009, 06:38 AM

IMHO the solution is not to nerf Islam per se but to somehow buff Sufi syncretism.

[...]

"Sufi traditions of peace and coexistence are indeed very powerful as an expression of people's Islam in our subcontinent, but unfortunately the ruling clergy has never given them either recognition or validity."

[...]

http://rethinkingislam-sultanshahin....-visiting.html

Ladewig · 29th November 2009, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

IMHO the solution is not to nerf Islam per se but to somehow buff Sufi syncretism.

What is "to nerf"?

Limbo · 29th November 2009, 06:54 AM

MMORPG slang. To weaken.

UndercoverElephant · 29th November 2009, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

IMHO the solution is not to nerf Islam per se but to somehow buff Sufi syncretism.

[...]

"Sufi traditions of peace and coexistence are indeed very powerful as an expression of people's Islam in our subcontinent, but unfortunately the ruling clergy has never given them either recognition or validity."

[...]

http://rethinkingislam-sultanshahin....-visiting.html

I'd like nothing more than a Sufi takeover of mainstream Islam. Unfortunately it is a bit like hoping for the Quakers to take over Christianity. There's not much we can do as non-muslims to provoke such a change. What we can do is make it quite clear that the Islamisation of western society is not going to happen.

I would have voted to ban the building of minarets in the UK had I the choice. I feel genuinely threatened by Islam.

Darat · 29th November 2009, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8385069.stm

Islam and European Secular Liberalism remain on course for a head-on collision. Islam continually "stirs hatred". It is fundamentally non-multicultural and therefore fundamentally incompatible with modern European civilisation. The politicians are too scared to tackle this problem, but in Switzerland it only takes 1000 votes to force a referendum. The people have spoken.

Oh I know what you mean - the hatred they stir up by building Islamic minarets threatens to overwhelm all civilised countries.

I find it quite amusing that you use an example of completely irrational "secular" intolerance as an example of Islamic "non-multiculturalism".

UndercoverElephant · 29th November 2009, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Oh I know what you mean - the hatred they stir up by building Islamic minarets threatens to overwhelm all civilised countries.

I find it quite amusing that you use an example of completely irrational "secular" intolerance as an example of Islamic "non-multiculturalism".

When you are faced with a threat like Islamisation, tolerance is not rational. Give them an inch and they will try to take several hundred miles.

I can find no way of reconciling my own system of values and ethics with that of mainstream Islam. Christianity causes me some problems, but they are tiny when compared with Islam.

Limbo · 29th November 2009, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

I'd like nothing more than a Sufi takeover of mainstream Islam. Unfortunately it is a bit like hoping for the Quakers to take over Christianity. There's not much we can do as non-muslims to provoke such a change. What we can do is make it quite clear that the Islamisation of western society is not going to happen.

I would have voted to ban the building of minarets in the UK had I the choice. I feel genuinely threatened by Islam.

Wherever Islamisation threatens, in addition to whatever other measures are taken governments could try sponsoring Sufi centers, giving Sufi clerics the resources to make outreach programs and to find and educate radicals. Something to that effect could help in Afghanistan, so why not everywhere else?

Can Sufis Bring Peace to Afghanistan?

[...]

"Sufis can be instrumental in persuading Taliban leaders to give up violence," says the politician, who is a member of Gilani family.

"If Sufi followers are supported, there is a 99.9 percent chance that Sufis could help prevent all kinds of fallacies being used by various groups in the name of Islam," Gilani adds.

[...]

Arcade22 · 29th November 2009, 07:18 AM

Good, a step closer to curing Europe of this plague.

Hux · 29th November 2009, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

When you are faced with a threat like Islamisation, tolerance is not rational. Give them an inch and they will try to take several hundred miles.

I can find no way of reconciling my own system of values and ethics with that of mainstream Islam. Christianity causes me some problems, but they are tiny when compared with Islam.

Very well said.

I for one do not want to see another Mosque built in the UK.

In the interest of balance, I don't want to see another church or Synagogue built either.

a3sigma · 29th November 2009, 07:39 AM

In the recent thread "what country would you move to", to my surprise, I was the only one that said Switzerland. Anybody changing their mind?

DC

Tsukasa Buddha · 29th November 2009, 07:42 AM

We must restrict freedom in order to preserve it!

I never realised architecture had such a strong influence on the fate of a nation...

Thunder · 29th November 2009, 07:45 AM

NYC has lots of tall church steeples. Muslim minarets would be a find addition to this.

now, as for Swissland, its their country.

Darat · 29th November 2009, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

When you are faced with a threat like Islamisation, tolerance is not rational. Give them an inch and they will try to take several hundred miles.

I can find no way of reconciling my own system of values and ethics with that of mainstream Islam. Christianity causes me some problems, but they are tiny when compared with Islam.

I understand that you are intolerant - as I said I just find it funny that you use an example of "secular" intolerance as an example of Islamic intolerance.

Darat · 29th November 2009, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

We must restrict freedom in order to preserve it!

I never realised architecture had such a strong influence on the fate of a nation...

You mean you didn't know that a minaret was a symbol of the most terrible and evil hatred?

linusrichard · 29th November 2009, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

As things stand, violence, intolerance and mediaevil ethics are an integral part of Islam.

How about if, instead of resisting Islam because violence, intolerance, and medieval ethics are supposedly integral to it, we just resist violence, intolerance, and medieval ethics?

Using Islam as a proxy for values that are incompatible with modern Western civilization has at least two potential problems - it is over-inclusive, by discriminating against Muslims who are not violent, intolerant, and medieval, and it is under-inclusive, by failing to discriminate against violent, intolerant, and medieval non-Muslims. And, if you marginalize the more progressive Muslims along with the more conservative ones, you hardly encourage the progress of Islam.

plumjam · 29th November 2009, 08:02 AM

This is already escalating. I just read on the wire that Syria has stopped importing cuckoo clocks and the United Arab Emirates has outlawed Swiss roll.

X · 29th November 2009, 08:22 AM

Perhaps I'm missing part of the issue, but I don't see why this is necessary.

Personally, I kind of like minarets. They're pretty. It would be like banning classic-style cathedral spires.

Architecturally, I find that such tall structures make cathedrals and mosques quite beautiful.

I do concede that my whole argument is based on a personal sense of aesthetics. But I just don't see the point of banning them. Unless you're afraid they'll overcrowd things?

P.S. Are minarets built without attendant mosques? I could see concerns over minarets popping up all over the place.

a3sigma · 29th November 2009, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by plumjam

This is already escalating. I just read on the wire that Syria has stopped importing cuckoo clocks and the United Arab Emirates has outlawed Swiss roll.

Not their Swiss bank rolls, I'll bet.

DC

Sideroxylon · 29th November 2009, 08:36 AM

Does this go far enough? Won’t the evil Muslims still be in Switzerland plotting European domination and biding their time?

Sideroxylon · 29th November 2009, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by plumjam

This is already escalating. I just read on the wire that Syria has stopped importing cuckoo clocks and the United Arab Emirates has outlawed Swiss roll.

Taking a leaf from the US and their "freedom fries" the popular cakes are to be renamed "sharia rolls".

quadraginta · 29th November 2009, 08:46 AM

I think there's a lot to be said for fighting the insidious influence of autocratic architecture

I'm more concerned about that "Gothic" stuff, though.

or this, maybe.

fullflavormenthol · 29th November 2009, 08:49 AM

Yeah because secular European liberalism has a long history of being 100% compatitible with freedom.

The way I see it is that there are two religions at play here. One wants to control every aspect of the lives of the people, and the other wants to control every aspect of the lives of the people.

Aepervius · 29th November 2009, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

We must restrict freedom in order to preserve it!

I never realised architecture had such a strong influence on the fate of a nation...

This is actually the struggle which has been going on between a few type of thought : integration, assimilation, and multiculturalism. Some people simply do not want to accept (to right or to wrong I haven't decided) that their culture change and include new culture. Architecture being aprt of the culture, it can be seen as a direct threat thereof.

Off topic : There are some zone where you cannot build whatever you want. Such a zone is where my parents home is. They can't change too much the architecture of the home (all homes there are built with special stone, roofing color, and are nearly all older than 1700).
Every roofing has to bwe approved, every change has to be checked. A PITA IMHO.

Anybody live in such architecture restricted zone ?

ddt · 29th November 2009, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

Islam and European Secular Liberalism remain on course for a head-on collision. Islam continually "stirs hatred". It is fundamentally non-multicultural and therefore fundamentally incompatible with modern European civilisation. The politicians are too scared to tackle this problem, but in Switzerland it only takes 1000 votes to force a referendum. The people have spoken.

You mean they've spoken in this way (from the BBC article):

Quote:

But others say the referendum campaign incited hatred. On Thursday the Geneva mosque was vandalised for the third time during the campaign, according to local media.

Fine secular liberals those are

. I bet it's more the Swiss equivalent of rednecks. People blaming their own (economic) misfortune on those bloody immigrants.

I note no-one in this thread has given any hint of correlation between the number of minarets and Islamic fundamentalism, let alone causation.

I'm curious if someone takes this to the ECHR. Should be a slam-dunk case, IMHO.

funk de fino · 29th November 2009, 11:01 AM

The Swiss and the bigots here have embarrassed themselves again.

UndercoverElephant · 29th November 2009, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I understand that you are intolerant

I am not sure you understand anything at all, Darat.

Please keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks to argue your point.

Posted By:Lisa Simpson

Arcade22 · 29th November 2009, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant

I am not sure you understand anything at all, Darat.

Ah, ignore him and the likes of Funk de fino. Even objecting to the massive Arabization and Africanization of Europe is apparently borderline Nazi to them.

Please stay on topic. Thank you.

Posted By:LibraryLady

Thunder · 29th November 2009, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Ah, ignore him and the likes of Funk de fino. Even objecting to the massive Arabization and Africanization of Europe is apparently borderline Nazi to them.

you know, folks complained when the Jewish population of New York City hit 25%, back in 1950.

sky didn't fall..now did it?

xXMoshtradamusXx · 29th November 2009, 11:56 AM

Tolerance of Intolerance will be the death of Tolerance...
I think that sums up my problem with Islam quite well.

Malerin · 29th November 2009, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol

Yeah because secular European liberalism has a long history of being 100% compatitible with freedom.

The way I see it is that there are two religions at play here. One wants to control every aspect of the lives of the people, and the other wants to control every aspect of the lives of the people.

Because there's no difference between life in Iran and Europe

Limbo · 29th November 2009, 12:08 PM

Islamabad sees sufism as extremist antidote

Islamabad is set to combat the ongoing insurgency by spreading sufi thoughts and teachings across the violence-wracked country.

Government sources on Sunday announced setting up of a seven-member 'Sufi Advisory Council' (SAC) with an aim to combating extremism and fanaticism by spreading sufism in the country, Dawn News reported.

The SAC chairman and some of its members are said to be holding their first meeting at the ministry of religious affairs in Islamabad on Tuesday June 9.

The council will also invite what it calls progressive intellectuals in an effort to promote the flourishing of sufism.

It is not clear whether SAC will play a parallel role in the presence of Council of Islamic Ideology which is a constitutional body.

The decision comes as Islamabad and other major cities across Pakistan have been braced for suicide attacks since the army launched an offensive against the insurgents in the troubled northwestern Swat valley and its adjoining districts in early May.

Mystical power

Why Sufi Muslims, for centuries the most ferocious soldiers of Islam, could be our most valuable allies in the fight against extremism

[...]

As fundamentalist Islam spreads around the world, Sufism is one of its targets, even in such strongholds as Indonesia, Pakistan, and Nigeria. Often this comes in the form of ideological struggle, but open violence has broken out as well. Sudan's Islamist government attacks the black Sufi population of Darfur; in Iraq, suicide bombers target Sufi centers. Sufis have literally everything to lose from the continued advance of the Islamist extremists.

[...]

Empowering Sufism and empowering Muslim women is IMO the only solution to Islamisation of western society. Western nations need strong 'Sufi Advisory Councils' everywhere Islamisation threatens, and people need to be educated about the ideological differences between a Sufi and an extremist.

Sorry, I thought this thread was about solutions, not useless finger pointing.

funk de fino · 29th November 2009, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Ah, ignore him and the likes of Funk de fino. Even objecting to the massive Arabization and Africanization of Europe is apparently borderline Nazi to them.

I know bigots when I hear or read their filth. Your claims are falsehoods.

Alareth · 29th November 2009, 12:36 PM

My post now appears redundant ...

WildCat · 29th November 2009, 12:38 PM

There's direct democracy for you. The tyranny of the majority.

Fnord · 29th November 2009, 12:38 PM

Yay, Switzerland!

Now, about them pointy towers on the Christian church buildings...

Originally Posted by WildCat

There's direct democracy for you. The tyranny of the majority.

Would you rather have rule by Tyranny of the Minority? I hear North Korea is accepting immigrants...

Soapy Sam · 29th November 2009, 12:43 PM

While I have no objection to minarets per se (I rather like the one on Glasgow Green), I confess that I had hoped the increasing secularisation of Britain was the trend of the future. I am dismayed by the growth of any religious influence in the UK, especially in politics or education.
I have lived and worked in exclusively Islamic nations. While I find Sharia Law and Wahabi custom repellant in many ways, it is little worse than the sort of narrow minded Calvinist bigotry Scotland has only recently outgrown.
I don't want it back, thanks, under any label.
Islam in Scotland is generally Pakistani influenced, not Arab. There are a lot of very fine people from both ethno-cultural spheres and I welcome them to Scotland - but I do wish they would leave their particular brand of religious nonsense back in Asia or the middle east. We have quite enough of our own.

29th November 2009, 06:22 AM	#1
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 9,060	Swiss to ban the building of Islamic minarets http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8385069.stm Quote: Projections from exit polls suggest that voters in Switzerland have backed a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets. The result is not yet official, but the BBC's correspondent in Berne says if it is confirmed, it would be a surprise. The proposal was backed by the Swiss People's Party (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which claims minarets are a sign of Islamisation. Opponents say a ban would discriminate and that the ballot has stirred hatred. Islam and European Secular Liberalism remain on course for a head-on collision. Islam continually "stirs hatred". It is fundamentally non-multicultural and therefore fundamentally incompatible with modern European civilisation. The politicians are too scared to tackle this problem, but in Switzerland it only takes 1000 votes to force a referendum. The people have spoken.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about." Last edited by UndercoverElephant; 29th November 2009 at 06:25 AM.

29th November 2009, 06:25 AM	#2
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Muslims built a Mosque here in AtlantaGa on 14th street. Spires, minerets with gold plated domes. It looks like something out of Arabian nights but since my city has so much out of place architecture the Mosque oddly fits. A Hindu Temple is also going up. I'm moving to the suburbs.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

29th November 2009, 06:28 AM	#3
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 9,060	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Muslims built a Mosque here in AtlantaGa on 14th street. Spires, minerets with gold plated domes. It looks like something out of Arabian nights but since my city has so much out of place architecture the Mosque oddly fits. A Hindu Temple is also going up. I'm moving to the suburbs. I'm not so bothered about Hindu Temples. The biggest Hindu Temple outside India is in London, and it did not cause the same sort of reaction. All religions are not the same. Hinduism is the best example of a religion which is multicultural and tolerant of other faiths. There is no sense that the Hindus are trying to take over the world or that Hindu culture is incompatible with Western secular liberalism. The same cannot be said for Islam.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about." Last edited by UndercoverElephant; 29th November 2009 at 06:30 AM.

29th November 2009, 06:36 AM	#4
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 9,060	Hinduism is a very old religion (older than Christianity, much older than Islam) which has always had to be flexible enough to accomodate a wide range of specific beliefs and which has had relatively few problems dealing with most aspects of modernity. Islam is like Christianity was before the enlightenment, the reformation and the scientific revolution - totally intolerant and bent on imposing itself anywhere and everywhere that muslims go. I believe that the Islamic world is eventually going to be forced to change, although this can only happen because of changes inside Islam rather than by being imposed by outsiders. However, I don't see how it helps for people to pretend that the problem doesn't exist. Every time I hear somebody saying that Islam is "really" a peaceful and tolerant religion it just makes me cringe. It is not. As things stand, violence, intolerance and mediaevil ethics are an integral part of Islam.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about." Last edited by UndercoverElephant; 29th November 2009 at 07:06 AM.

29th November 2009, 06:38 AM	#5
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	IMHO the solution is not to nerf Islam per se but to somehow buff Sufi syncretism. [...] "Sufi traditions of peace and coexistence are indeed very powerful as an expression of people's Islam in our subcontinent, but unfortunately the ruling clergy has never given them either recognition or validity." [...] http://rethinkingislam-sultanshahin....-visiting.html
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." Last edited by Limbo; 29th November 2009 at 06:42 AM.

29th November 2009, 06:52 AM	#6
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by Limbo IMHO the solution is not to nerf Islam per se but to somehow buff Sufi syncretism. What is "to nerf"?
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

29th November 2009, 06:54 AM	#7
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	MMORPG slang. To weaken.
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

29th November 2009, 07:03 AM	#8
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 9,060	Originally Posted by Limbo IMHO the solution is not to nerf Islam per se but to somehow buff Sufi syncretism. [...] "Sufi traditions of peace and coexistence are indeed very powerful as an expression of people's Islam in our subcontinent, but unfortunately the ruling clergy has never given them either recognition or validity." [...] http://rethinkingislam-sultanshahin....-visiting.html I'd like nothing more than a Sufi takeover of mainstream Islam. Unfortunately it is a bit like hoping for the Quakers to take over Christianity. There's not much we can do as non-muslims to provoke such a change. What we can do is make it quite clear that the Islamisation of western society is not going to happen. I would have voted to ban the building of minarets in the UK had I the choice. I feel genuinely threatened by Islam.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about."

29th November 2009, 07:04 AM	#9
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8385069.stm Islam and European Secular Liberalism remain on course for a head-on collision. Islam continually "stirs hatred". It is fundamentally non-multicultural and therefore fundamentally incompatible with modern European civilisation. The politicians are too scared to tackle this problem, but in Switzerland it only takes 1000 votes to force a referendum. The people have spoken. Oh I know what you mean - the hatred they stir up by building Islamic minarets threatens to overwhelm all civilised countries. I find it quite amusing that you use an example of completely irrational "secular" intolerance as an example of Islamic "non-multiculturalism".
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

29th November 2009, 07:08 AM	#10
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 9,060	Originally Posted by Darat Oh I know what you mean - the hatred they stir up by building Islamic minarets threatens to overwhelm all civilised countries. I find it quite amusing that you use an example of completely irrational "secular" intolerance as an example of Islamic "non-multiculturalism". When you are faced with a threat like Islamisation, tolerance is not rational. Give them an inch and they will try to take several hundred miles. I can find no way of reconciling my own system of values and ethics with that of mainstream Islam. Christianity causes me some problems, but they are tiny when compared with Islam.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about." Last edited by UndercoverElephant; 29th November 2009 at 07:11 AM.

29th November 2009, 07:14 AM	#11
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant I'd like nothing more than a Sufi takeover of mainstream Islam. Unfortunately it is a bit like hoping for the Quakers to take over Christianity. There's not much we can do as non-muslims to provoke such a change. What we can do is make it quite clear that the Islamisation of western society is not going to happen. I would have voted to ban the building of minarets in the UK had I the choice. I feel genuinely threatened by Islam. Wherever Islamisation threatens, in addition to whatever other measures are taken governments could try sponsoring Sufi centers, giving Sufi clerics the resources to make outreach programs and to find and educate radicals. Something to that effect could help in Afghanistan, so why not everywhere else? Can Sufis Bring Peace to Afghanistan? [...] "Sufis can be instrumental in persuading Taliban leaders to give up violence," says the politician, who is a member of Gilani family. "If Sufi followers are supported, there is a 99.9 percent chance that Sufis could help prevent all kinds of fallacies being used by various groups in the name of Islam," Gilani adds. [...]
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." Last edited by Limbo; 29th November 2009 at 07:22 AM.

29th November 2009, 07:18 AM	#12
Arcade22 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Västerbotten, Sweden Posts: 1,831	Good, a step closer to curing Europe of this plague.
	__________________ The habit of the religious way of thinking has biased our mind so grievously that we are — terrified at ourselves in our nakedness and naturalness; it has degraded us so that we deem ourselves depraved by nature, born devils. Max Stirner

29th November 2009, 07:21 AM	#13
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant When you are faced with a threat like Islamisation, tolerance is not rational. Give them an inch and they will try to take several hundred miles. I can find no way of reconciling my own system of values and ethics with that of mainstream Islam. Christianity causes me some problems, but they are tiny when compared with Islam. Very well said. I for one do not want to see another Mosque built in the UK. In the interest of balance, I don't want to see another church or Synagogue built either.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	__________________ *...people of faith who are that intelligent they've only managed to fool themselves* - MARDUK

29th November 2009, 07:39 AM	#14
a3sigma Thinker Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern Maryland, USA Posts: 232	In the recent thread "what country would you move to", to my surprise, I was the only one that said Switzerland. Anybody changing their mind? DC

29th November 2009, 07:42 AM	#15
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,920	We must restrict freedom in order to preserve it! I never realised architecture had such a strong influence on the fate of a nation...
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

29th November 2009, 07:45 AM	#16
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	NYC has lots of tall church steeples. Muslim minarets would be a find addition to this. now, as for Swissland, its their country.

29th November 2009, 07:53 AM	#17
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant When you are faced with a threat like Islamisation, tolerance is not rational. Give them an inch and they will try to take several hundred miles. I can find no way of reconciling my own system of values and ethics with that of mainstream Islam. Christianity causes me some problems, but they are tiny when compared with Islam. I understand that you are intolerant - as I said I just find it funny that you use an example of "secular" intolerance as an example of Islamic intolerance.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

29th November 2009, 07:54 AM	#18
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha We must restrict freedom in order to preserve it! I never realised architecture had such a strong influence on the fate of a nation... You mean you didn't know that a minaret was a symbol of the most terrible and evil hatred?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

29th November 2009, 08:00 AM	#19
linusrichard Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Lansing, Mich. Posts: 2,665	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant As things stand, violence, intolerance and mediaevil ethics are an integral part of Islam. How about if, instead of resisting Islam because violence, intolerance, and medieval ethics are supposedly integral to it, we just resist violence, intolerance, and medieval ethics? Using Islam as a proxy for values that are incompatible with modern Western civilization has at least two potential problems - it is over-inclusive, by discriminating against Muslims who are not violent, intolerant, and medieval, and it is under-inclusive, by failing to discriminate against violent, intolerant, and medieval non-Muslims. And, if you marginalize the more progressive Muslims along with the more conservative ones, you hardly encourage the progress of Islam.
	__________________ "We are talking about an old ladies genitals after all." - ponderingturtle

29th November 2009, 08:02 AM	#20
plumjam Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Valencia, Spain Posts: 7,837	This is already escalating. I just read on the wire that Syria has stopped importing cuckoo clocks and the United Arab Emirates has outlawed Swiss roll.
	Last edited by plumjam; 29th November 2009 at 08:04 AM.

29th November 2009, 08:22 AM	#21
X Slide Rulez 4 Life Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Launching the army, waiting for Hok to commit her forces (then the moles strike...) Posts: 4,082	Perhaps I'm missing part of the issue, but I don't see why this is necessary. Personally, I kind of like minarets. They're pretty. It would be like banning classic-style cathedral spires. Architecturally, I find that such tall structures make cathedrals and mosques quite beautiful. I do concede that my whole argument is based on a personal sense of aesthetics. But I just don't see the point of banning them. Unless you're afraid they'll overcrowd things? P.S. Are minarets built without attendant mosques? I could see concerns over minarets popping up all over the place.
	__________________ It is sad that this is necessary: Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly." Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly." [X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis

29th November 2009, 08:34 AM	#22
a3sigma Thinker Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern Maryland, USA Posts: 232	Originally Posted by plumjam This is already escalating. I just read on the wire that Syria has stopped importing cuckoo clocks and the United Arab Emirates has outlawed Swiss roll. Not their Swiss bank rolls, I'll bet. DC

29th November 2009, 08:36 AM	#23
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,639	Does this go far enough? Won’t the evil Muslims still be in Switzerland plotting European domination and biding their time?
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

29th November 2009, 08:38 AM	#24
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,639	Originally Posted by plumjam This is already escalating. I just read on the wire that Syria has stopped importing cuckoo clocks and the United Arab Emirates has outlawed Swiss roll. Taking a leaf from the US and their "freedom fries" the popular cakes are to be renamed "sharia rolls".
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

29th November 2009, 08:46 AM	#25
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 7,910	I think there's a lot to be said for fighting the insidious influence of autocratic architecture I'm more concerned about that "Gothic" stuff, though. or this, maybe.
	__________________ "It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." Last edited by quadraginta; 29th November 2009 at 08:53 AM.

29th November 2009, 08:49 AM	#26
fullflavormenthol Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,417	Yeah because secular European liberalism has a long history of being 100% compatitible with freedom. The way I see it is that there are two religions at play here. One wants to control every aspect of the lives of the people, and the other wants to control every aspect of the lives of the people.

29th November 2009, 09:22 AM	#27
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,764	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha We must restrict freedom in order to preserve it! I never realised architecture had such a strong influence on the fate of a nation... This is actually the struggle which has been going on between a few type of thought : integration, assimilation, and multiculturalism. Some people simply do not want to accept (to right or to wrong I haven't decided) that their culture change and include new culture. Architecture being aprt of the culture, it can be seen as a direct threat thereof. Off topic : There are some zone where you cannot build whatever you want. Such a zone is where my parents home is. They can't change too much the architecture of the home (all homes there are built with special stone, roofing color, and are nearly all older than 1700). Every roofing has to bwe approved, every change has to be checked. A PITA IMHO. Anybody live in such architecture restricted zone ?
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

29th November 2009, 09:54 AM	#28
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,327	Originally Posted by UndercoverElephant Islam and European Secular Liberalism remain on course for a head-on collision. Islam continually "stirs hatred". It is fundamentally non-multicultural and therefore fundamentally incompatible with modern European civilisation. The politicians are too scared to tackle this problem, but in Switzerland it only takes 1000 votes to force a referendum. The people have spoken. You mean they've spoken in this way (from the BBC article): Quote: But others say the referendum campaign incited hatred. On Thursday the Geneva mosque was vandalised for the third time during the campaign, according to local media. Fine secular liberals those are . I bet it's more the Swiss equivalent of rednecks. People blaming their own (economic) misfortune on those bloody immigrants. I note no-one in this thread has given any hint of correlation between the number of minarets and Islamic fundamentalism, let alone causation. I'm curious if someone takes this to the ECHR. Should be a slam-dunk case, IMHO.
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

29th November 2009, 11:01 AM	#29
funk de fino Dreaming of unicorns Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alba Posts: 10,795	The Swiss and the bigots here have embarrassed themselves again.
	__________________ Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. Christopher 7 - There is no need to contact them for conformation. That is just a denial tactic

29th November 2009, 11:36 AM	#32
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Arcade22 Ah, ignore him and the likes of Funk de fino. Even objecting to the massive Arabization and Africanization of Europe is apparently borderline Nazi to them. you know, folks complained when the Jewish population of New York City hit 25%, back in 1950. sky didn't fall..now did it?
	Last edited by Thunder; 29th November 2009 at 11:37 AM.

29th November 2009, 11:56 AM	#33
xXMoshtradamusXx Thinker Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: BFE, KY Posts: 186	Tolerance of Intolerance will be the death of Tolerance... I think that sums up my problem with Islam quite well.
	__________________ "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people."-Gregory House M.D. xXMoshtradamusXx

29th November 2009, 12:03 PM	#34
Malerin Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,341	Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol Yeah because secular European liberalism has a long history of being 100% compatitible with freedom. The way I see it is that there are two religions at play here. One wants to control every aspect of the lives of the people, and the other wants to control every aspect of the lives of the people. Because there's no difference between life in Iran and Europe
Malerin Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,341

29th November 2009, 12:08 PM	#35
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Islamabad sees sufism as extremist antidote Islamabad is set to combat the ongoing insurgency by spreading sufi thoughts and teachings across the violence-wracked country. Government sources on Sunday announced setting up of a seven-member 'Sufi Advisory Council' (SAC) with an aim to combating extremism and fanaticism by spreading sufism in the country, Dawn News reported. The SAC chairman and some of its members are said to be holding their first meeting at the ministry of religious affairs in Islamabad on Tuesday June 9. The council will also invite what it calls progressive intellectuals in an effort to promote the flourishing of sufism. It is not clear whether SAC will play a parallel role in the presence of Council of Islamic Ideology which is a constitutional body. The decision comes as Islamabad and other major cities across Pakistan have been braced for suicide attacks since the army launched an offensive against the insurgents in the troubled northwestern Swat valley and its adjoining districts in early May. Mystical power Why Sufi Muslims, for centuries the most ferocious soldiers of Islam, could be our most valuable allies in the fight against extremism [...] As fundamentalist Islam spreads around the world, Sufism is one of its targets, even in such strongholds as Indonesia, Pakistan, and Nigeria. Often this comes in the form of ideological struggle, but open violence has broken out as well. Sudan's Islamist government attacks the black Sufi population of Darfur; in Iraq, suicide bombers target Sufi centers. Sufis have literally everything to lose from the continued advance of the Islamist extremists. [...] Empowering Sufism and empowering Muslim women is IMO the only solution to Islamisation of western society. Western nations need strong 'Sufi Advisory Councils' everywhere Islamisation threatens, and people need to be educated about the ideological differences between a Sufi and an extremist. Sorry, I thought this thread was about solutions, not useless finger pointing.
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." Last edited by Limbo; 29th November 2009 at 12:14 PM.

29th November 2009, 12:13 PM	#36
funk de fino Dreaming of unicorns Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alba Posts: 10,795	Originally Posted by Arcade22 Ah, ignore him and the likes of Funk de fino. Even objecting to the massive Arabization and Africanization of Europe is apparently borderline Nazi to them. I know bigots when I hear or read their filth. Your claims are falsehoods.
	__________________ Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. Christopher 7 - There is no need to contact them for conformation. That is just a denial tactic

29th November 2009, 12:36 PM	#37
Alareth Expert Expertologist Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 6,681	The Swiss strike a blow against Islam My post now appears redundant ...
	Last edited by Alareth; 29th November 2009 at 12:45 PM.