Referendum on Scottish Independence

[commandlinegamer]

Due to be announced tomorrow, is anyone particularly excited by the SNP White Paper on independence?

I don't think it's great timing. and would have been better brought in during the first year of an SNP administration given that it's pretty much their raison-d'être. We're in the middle of a recession and I think most people priorities are focused on paying bills, keeping their job, etc.

Personally, I'm don't think the status quo is so bad, I'd be more interested in seeing the dissolution of the monarchy than independence.

[parky76]

so, I guess Scottish independence is sorta like banning gay marriage in the USA?

an unnecessary agenda at a very bad time.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

Personally, I'm don't think the status quo is so bad

You're just afraid of being drawn and quartered.

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by parky76

so, I guess Scottish independence is sorta like banning gay marriage in the USA?

an unnecessary agenda at a very bad time.

No. Very far from it.

[Francesca R]

Originally Posted by funk de fino

No. Very far from it.

I guess you can still exercise that Dubai option.

[Rolfe]

I think we've got a much better chance of ditching the monarchy post independence than we do right now, anyway.

Rolfe.

[666]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I think we've got a much better chance of ditching the monarchy post independence than we do right now, anyway.

I suspect if you wait until Charlie gets the job you would have an even better chance. You might even have the support of the rest of the UK.

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by Francesca R

I guess you can still exercise that Dubai option.

lame.

[Ysidro]

Freeeeeeedooooom!

[Darat]

I still think that if a minority of people manage to destroy the UK then they should get the Royals as their prize!

[Cynic]

Do the Scots even want independence from the UK? I guess some must if it's coming up. Seems like it's been a done deal for so long, the persistence of the idea seems strange. Mind you, I'm from a country comprised of states that joined willingly, if not of states whose indigeonous people were included in the formation of the state to begin with. The US didn't conquer to grow so much as spread like an infection.

[Professor Yaffle]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Do the Scots even want independence from the UK? I guess some must if it's coming up. Seems like it's been a done deal for so long, the persistence of the idea seems strange. Mind you, I'm from a country comprised of states that joined willingly, if not of states whose indigeonous people were included in the formation of the state to begin with. The US didn't conquer to grow so much as spread like an infection.

Well a lot of them vote SNP, so you would presume so. I'd like Scotland to be independent because then there would be not great reason to have the SNP in charge anymore*.






*Don't ask me about this if you don't want a big rant about the massive underfunding in education that is going on under the SNP.

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Do the Scots even want independence from the UK? I guess some must if it's coming up. Seems like it's been a done deal for so long, the persistence of the idea seems strange. Mind you, I'm from a country comprised of states that joined willingly, if not of states whose indigeonous people were included in the formation of the state to begin with. The US didn't conquer to grow so much as spread like an infection.

The SNP are the largest party in the Scots Govt. They were elected on a ticket that they would hold a referendum. The English based parties seem to be scared to give the people of this country a free vote on the subject. At the moment support is not enough to get a yes vote I suspect but a Tory govt next year may increase that. Although a lot of people do not support independence they support a referendum.

The English based parties are hypocritical jackasses.

[Rolfe]

The Scots aren't a monolithic group mind. Some do, some don't.

Rolfe.

[Cynic]

I wonder if it's similar (though reversed) to the occasional referendums that Puerto Rico has on the subject of becoming an official US state, where the status quo is largely seen as being more advantageous. I'm not sure what exactly Scottish independence would resemble though. Is it suggested that they become wholly independent, or just sort of more autonomous?

[plumjam]

You'll get independence so long as you let the English vote.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Cynic

I wonder if it's similar (though reversed) to the occasional referendums that Puerto Rico has on the subject of becoming an official US state, where the status quo is largely seen as being more advantageous. I'm not sure what exactly Scottish independence would resemble though. Is it suggested that they become wholly independent, or just sort of more autonomous?

Ideally, a separate state within the EU. Similar to Denmark, Ireland and so on. Though there are moves to split the vote by introducing various half-way-house options as well.

Rolfe.

[mbp]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Though there are moves to split the vote by introducing various half-way-house options as well.

How would that work? Surely in a question like this you can't choose an which has received less than half the votes cast. Would each voter also get to pick a second choice?

Who would be eligible for citizenship in an independent Scotland? Anyone who's currently a British citizen? Only those currently living in Scotland? Would dual citizenship be allowed?

I realise the answers to all of these questions might be in the white paper, but it's rather long...

I also read somewhere that the SNP don't want an independent Scotland to be part of NATO. Might that not make the remainder of the UK rather nervous? Could we eventually see a heavily fortified Scottish/English border?

[richardm]

Originally Posted by funk de fino

The SNP are the largest party in the Scots Govt.

Only by one seat, mind.

Quote:

At the moment support is not enough to get a yes vote

No, it doesn't seem to be, does it? When the SNP first took power it seemed to me like it was inevitable that independence would follow, especially since the SNP seemed to be right on the ball. It doesn't feel quite so much like that now, though. Perhaps it's because Salmond was of the opinion that delaying the referendum would give the best chance of a Yes vote, when people saw how well the country was going, but unfortunately instead people got to see small countries like e.g. Iceland going to the wall and I think it's made them nervous. Maybe he'd have done better to strike while the iron was hot.

Quote:

The English based parties are hypocritical jackasses.

Maybe, but still popular enough to pull in three times the votes the SNP did in Glasgow North East. I think we'd probably all get along a lot better if the arguments weren't characterised as Evil English people stopping the Brave Scots from having their freedom, because it's not like that at all. As Rolfe says, the Scots are not a monolithic group (and she's as SNP as they come)

Originally Posted by mbp

I also read somewhere that the SNP don't want an independent Scotland to be part of NATO. Might that not make the remainder of the UK rather nervous? Could we eventually see a heavily fortified Scottish/English border?

Probably not. What does the border between Norway and Sweden look like? They're in the same situation aren't they?

[Undesired Walrus]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

The Scots aren't a monolithic group mind. Some do, some don't.

Rolfe.

According to the latest polls, most don't (want independence).

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by richardm

Only by one seat, mind.

Irrelevant

Originally Posted by richardm

No, it doesn't seem to be, does it? When the SNP first took power it seemed to me like it was inevitable that independence would follow, especially since the SNP seemed to be right on the ball. It doesn't feel quite so much like that now, though. Perhaps it's because Salmond was of the opinion that delaying the referendum would give the best chance of a Yes vote, when people saw how well the country was going, but unfortunately instead people got to see small countries like e.g. Iceland going to the wall and I think it's made them nervous. Maybe he'd have done better to strike while the iron was hot.

Global financial circumstances have a lot to answer for. All polls I have seen show that the public are happy with the SNP admin. The financial recession has instilled a lot of fear and trepidation and quite rightly so. It was never going to help Independence. I dont think you can fault Salmond for delaying as the english run parties would have blocked it then anyway.

Originally Posted by richardm

Maybe, but still popular enough to pull in three times the votes the SNP did in Glasgow North East. I think we'd probably all get along a lot better if the arguments weren't characterised as Evil English people stopping the Brave Scots from having their freedom, because it's not like that at all. As Rolfe says, the Scots are not a monolithic group (and she's as SNP as they come)

Those parties are run from London. Remember what happened to the Labour lady who said "BRING IT ON". I am not saying they are stopping us having freedom, they are stopping us having a say on whether we want it or not. That is hypocritical when you see the displays towards former Soviet Bloc countries by the UK and US govts.

Give me one good reason why we should not get a chance to vote on it?

What does the UN say about self determination or independence for nations? Perhaps we should look at India for examples of countries who split from England and see where it all went wrong for them? Maybe we should look at the HDI index to see how poorly small nations do?

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

According to the latest polls, most don't (want independence).

According to a lot of polls, most want the chance to vote (on independence)

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by mbp

Could we eventually see a heavily fortified Scottish/English border?

Are you having a laugh?

[Fiona]

Just indulging in fairly usual scare tactics I think.

We will see what people think when the campaign actually brings these arguments into the serious light of debate

[Darat]

Originally Posted by funk de fino

...snip...

Give me one good reason why we should not get a chance to vote on it?

...snip...

Because you do not want the country to have a vote on it?

[Cynic]

Well, it's obstensively a vote to leave, not a vote to get kicked out, right? Asking for permission to be independent seems like a violation of the spirit of the thing.

[Francesca R]

Originally Posted by funk de fino

What does the UN say about self determination or independence for nations?

Irrelevant. I don't believe it has anything to say about supporting the freedom of a subset of a nation to forcefully secede.

[Francesca R]

Originally Posted by funk de fino

According to a lot of polls, most want the chance to vote (on independence)

Most UK citizens? I don't think so.

[Cynic]

Perhaps they'd make an exception for said subset that was forcefully made to join.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Well, it's obstensively a vote to leave, not a vote to get kicked out, right? Asking for permission to be independent seems like a violation of the spirit of the thing.

In the UK every citizen already has "self determination", every citizen in the UK has a representative in at least one legislative body that passes the laws that effects them. We have no second class citizens in the UK.

I am actually all for the people of Scotland to decide whether they want to become "independent" or not I just object to how the people wanting independence have gone about it and how it is never presented as what it is i.e. the destruction/end of my country. I am proud to be British, I am also proud of my Welsh roots, I am also proud to be a British person born in an area of "England" that has merged pretty seamlessly (well since Roman time) into "Scotland".

[Francesca R]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Perhaps they'd make an exception for said subset that was forcefully made to join.

I believe they do things like that yes

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Perhaps they'd make an exception for said subset that was forcefully made to join.

Oh please - the act of union is over 300 years old for goodness sake! And the Scottish and English (but not the Welsh or Irish at the time) had equal rights after the union, no matter how meagre those rights were. The Scottish people were no more forced into the Union than the English people were.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Francesca R

Irrelevant. I don't believe it has anything to say about supporting the freedom of a subset of a nation to forcefully secede.

We've had the argument about declaring that an incorporated nation loses its right to be treated as a nation and can therefore be outvoted in perpetuity on other occasions, and there seems little point in rehashing it now.

However, even ignoring the violently split infinitive, "forcefully" seems a bit strong.

Rolfe.

[Francesca R]

Yes it's a bit strong, but a yes vote in a referendum voted on only by residents of Scotland would be, by default, against the wishes of the population of the nation as a whole. So to carry through with it without getting the rest onside would need a bit of force.

[Undesired Walrus]

Originally Posted by funk de fino

According to a lot of polls, most want the chance to vote (on independence)

Not according to the latest YouGov.

Meanwhile, support for the SNP is at only 24%!

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

We've had the argument about declaring that an incorporated nation loses its right to be treated as a nation and can therefore be outvoted in perpetuity on other occasions, and there seems little point in rehashing it now.

However, even ignoring the violently split infinitive, "forcefully" seems a bit strong.

Rolfe.

I don't think "forcefully" is too strong - the rest of the UK would have no choice, the decision would be forced on us.

[Cynic]

Well, as I said at the top, given those 300 years since "the act of union" (yikes!) I'm surprised anyone gives a crap either. I personally think that independence is weird idea at this point regardless of the reason for the union. Please bear in mind that my knowledge of Scottish history comes almost entirely from the fairy tales and the movies Braveheart and Rob Roy. It's not that we're ignorant -- we just don't care that much.

To sharpen my point, however, I believe you're conflating individual independence with group independence a bit. If the "Scottish people" wish to have independence, that isn't the business of those who are not "the Scottish people". Individuals are only so much important as the groups they belong to at this sense. If you want to claim that this decision affects everyone in the union and therefore it's every individual's business, then I completely agree.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Cynic

...snip...

To sharpen my point, however, I believe you're conflating individual independence with group independence a bit. If the "Scottish people" wish to have independence, that isn't the business of those who are not "the Scottish people". Individuals are only so much important as the groups they belong to at this sense. If you want to claim that this decision affects everyone in the union and therefore it's every individual's business, then I completely agree.

I understand your point and that's pretty much why I do support independence if the vote goes that way (even if I don't want it to happen).

[mbp]

Originally Posted by funk de fino

Are you having a laugh?

No, I'm asking a question. I take it your answer is "no", but I'd have liked to see something a bit more detailed than that.

Couldn't an independent Scotland - which isn't in NATO and which (presumably, unless they decide to spend heavily on defence) has a much smaller military with which to defend a rather large area - be seen as a security risk from an English perspective?

I'm not suggesting you'd end up with a new iron curtain or anything that restricts the ability of people to move back and forth in peacetime.
But wouldn't there have to be some preparation for the possibility that at some point in the future a Napoleon IV is going to invade Northumberland by landing an army in Scotland?

I guess I don't understand why an independent Scotland wouldn't want to be in NATO.

[Undesired Walrus]

I believe Salmond has declared that the hypothetical Independent Scotland would keep its army conjoined with England, Wales and NI. Infact, Salmond has also decalred that the Queen would remain head of State and the pound as currency. So presumably he believes there are some things good about the Union and things Scotland can't manage alone. Some would call him a slight hypocrite, but of course I couldn't possibly comment.