[Merged] Huckabee going down? / Huckabee & Clemmons

Alferd_Packer · 30th November 2009, 12:59 PM

Apparently Mike Huckabee commuted the sentence of the suspect in the Washington Police shooting.

Countdown to CTs calling it an Obama plot, 5. . . 4. . . 3. .

headscratcher4 · 30th November 2009, 01:16 PM

I remember the fondness of the GOP for Willie Horton...it will be interesting to see how the story line plays on that side of the aisle for a change.

carlitos · 30th November 2009, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

I remember the fondness of the GOP for Willie Horton...it will be interesting to see how the story line plays on that side of the aisle for a change.

He leads the polls in Iowa, but I'm pretty sure that this will kill any primary hopes. Which (IMHO as a likely GOP primary voter) is a good thing, and likely the only good thing to come from this horrible mess.

dudalb · 30th November 2009, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

He leads the polls in Iowa, but I'm pretty sure that this will kill any primary hopes. Which (IMHO as a likely GOP primary voter) is a good thing, and likely the only good thing to come from this horrible mess.

I would'nt bet on that. Huckabee will play the "I was just trying to do the Will of Jeebus" card,and it will go over big with the Born Again Voters.

Alferd_Packer · 30th November 2009, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I would'nt bet on that. Huckabee will play the "I was just trying to do the Will of Jeebus" card,and it will go over big with the Born Again Voters.

Even Born Again Voters hate cop killers.

grandthefttoaster · 30th November 2009, 06:49 PM

The same thing happened to Mike Huckabee before the last election, when it was pointed out that Huckabee had paroled Wayne DuMond.

Infoexcavator · 1st December 2009, 03:03 AM

Michelle Malkin will not be seen on FoxNews anymore, she commented that Huckabee whitewashed and O'Reilly made softwall questions. Her blog has a lot of info attacking the Huckster http://michellemalkin.com/

cwalner · 1st December 2009, 06:39 AM

Ok, am I missing something here.

The story I heard about this on the radio seemed to indicate that the parole was done at least several years ago, and the suspect lived a relatively crime-free life for most of that time until recently.

While I am no huge fan of Huckabee, I don't really see how this is related to him.

Yes, I know how politics work and that any opponents he his in either primaries or general elections will try to use this, but this seems a bit of stretch to me just to score political points.

Drudgewire · 1st December 2009, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by cwalner

Ok, am I missing something here.

The story I heard about this on the radio seemed to indicate that the parole was done at least several years ago, and the suspect lived a relatively crime-free life for most of that time until recently.

Incorrect. The sentence was commuted in 2000 and he was back in jail a year later. This is from the Arkansas Leader in 2004:

Quote:

Jegley cites numerous examples of Huckabee's freeing felons who go on committing more crimes and wind up back in prison.

Maurice Clemmons received a 35-year sentence in the early 1990s for armed robbery and theft. His sentence was commuted in May 2000, and he was let out three months later.

The following March, Clemmons committed two armed robberies and other crimes and was sentenced to 10 years. You'd think they'd keep him locked up after that, but no: He was paroled last March and is now wanted for aggravated robbery.

How he was out on the street goes way beyond Huckabee, but the fact the guy would've been in jail for the rest of his life without him pretty much dooms his political future, and for good reason.

cwalner · 1st December 2009, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

Incorrect. The sentence was commuted in 2000 and he was back in jail a year later. This is from the Arkansas Leader in 2004:

How he was out on the street goes way beyond Huckabee, but the fact the guy would've been in jail for the rest of his life without him pretty much dooms his political future, and for good reason.

Thanks, though I am dissapointed. I expected better from NPR. While some may mark this as liberal bias, I don't see how that is the case, since Huckabee is conservative. It just seems they didn't check thier facts well enough.

MattusMaximus · 1st December 2009, 09:49 AM

Wow, it looks as if the shootings in Seattle by Maurice Clemmons could be Mike Huckabee's political undoing...

Conservatives hammer Mike Huckabee over shooting

Quote:

The conservative blogosphere unleashed a torrent of criticism against Mike Huckabee Monday after a man whose sentence he commuted as Arkansas governor was suspected of gunning down four police officers in Washington state over the weekend.

Maurice Clemmons, whom Huckabee granted clemency to nine years ago, remained at large after local police in Lakewood, Wash. mistakenly thought they had him trapped in a house early Monday. Clemmons is reported to have shot the officers as they were sitting at a table in a local coffee shop.

While many details of the murders were still unclear Monday, leading online conservative voices were quick to pass judgment on Huckabee, whose 2008 presidential campaign was forced to respond to accusations that he was too lenient with violent criminals during his years as governor. ...

I wonder if this brings Palin, someone who would compete for a lot of the social conservatives who like Huckabee, one step closer to the 2012 GOP nod?

Policenaut · 1st December 2009, 10:00 AM

I still doubt Palin will run but this is definitely bad for Huckabee. We'll see whenever they do another type of straw poll if he still wins like he has the last few. If he loses I think it will be for this reason alone. I don't see anyone else on the R side doing anything that would make them more popular (well maybe Palin with the book) so logically they would only beat Huckabee if this incident tarnished his name.

Brainster · 1st December 2009, 10:37 AM

Huck had said just before this erupted that he probably wasn't going to run in 2012, that he was having too much fun doing his show.

Cynic · 1st December 2009, 10:48 AM

I'm not a big fan of Huckabee (because of his social views) but I'd hate to see a politician go down in flames because a calculated risk went bad. But I'm not all that well-versed about how bad a mistake this might have been.

Lurker · 1st December 2009, 11:14 AM

I don't think it reflects negatively on a governor if he commutes a sentence and the ex-con goes out and commits another crime. Mistakes like this will happen. In Huckabee's situation, I think he will have no chance of winning a Republican primary at this point. Republicans pride themselves on being tough on crime and the fact that Huckabee pardoned or commuted more sentences than all of his predecessors will be a debate point for his Republican adversaries.

No, his Presidential aspirations have just gone up in smoke. By the way, he was on O'Reilly last night doing damage control and pointing at everyone else but himself.

Tmy · 1st December 2009, 04:45 PM

Anyone remember the "Willey Horton" adds by the GOP??? What goes around comes around.

Brainster · 1st December 2009, 05:24 PM

Let me point out as well that Huckabee's taking the flak mostly from conservatives on this; the first one that Politico notes is Michelle Malkin. It is often claimed that the theocons have taken over the GOP, and yet Huckabee got almost no support from the major conservative bloggers in 2008. Indeed, they were actively hostile to his candidacy, even though he was the evangelical candidate in the race.

mortimer · 1st December 2009, 05:43 PM

It should also be noted that Huckabee commuted his sentence to something like 47 years after Clemmons had served around 16 years. The Arkansas parole board still had to approve his release, which they did with a 5-0 vote. Washington State also allowed him out on a $15,000 bail, knowing his past convictions. There is plenty of blame to be spread about here.

Darth Rotor · 1st December 2009, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Tmy

Anyone remember the "Willey Horton" adds by the GOP??? What goes around comes around.

Aye. Huckabee's Horton just killed four white cops. I realize I may be jumping the gun here, but it is my opinion that this attack was racially motivated.

I accept that I may be wrong.

DR

Cynic · 1st December 2009, 06:17 PM

Or perhaps there is no blame at all to go around. The system is designed with certain assumptions in mind -- that (usually) rehabilitation is possible, that mitigating circumstances should be taken into account, that sometimes sentences are poorly selected, etc. Failures are expected, and as we skeptics know, when something is expected, we shouldn't automatically consider it miraculous when it happens.

I'll admit a little shadenfreude when bad things befall politicians I don't like, but I consider myself to be principled and would never hold this against Huckabee. That his own party is, is, well, perhaps evidence of something else. ;-)

As for Washington... maybe. I've never quite understood the bail thing. It seems like someone should either be held in jail or they shouldn't. Bail just seems like a money-making scheme, one that simultaneously punishes people just because they're poor and gives the rich a privelidge they haven't earned.

Puppycow · 1st December 2009, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

Huck had said just before this erupted that he probably wasn't going to run in 2012, that he was having too much fun doing his show.

I don't believe that. I believe that it's just too early for any candidate to throw their hat in the ring yet, so they downplay it and suggest that they are not really interested. Standard stuff. Especially if it's not a categorical denial, which this wasn't.

ETA: IIRC Huckabee recently won the Values Voters straw poll.

mortimer · 1st December 2009, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Cynic

Or perhaps there is no blame at all to go around. The system is designed with certain assumptions in mind -- that (usually) rehabilitation is possible, that mitigating circumstances should be taken into account, that sometimes sentences are poorly selected, etc. Failures are expected, and as we skeptics know, when something is expected, we shouldn't automatically consider it miraculous when it happens.

I'll admit a little shadenfreude when bad things befall politicians I don't like, but I consider myself to be principled and would never hold this against Huckabee. That his own party is, is, well, perhaps evidence of something else. ;-)

As for Washington... maybe. I've never quite understood the bail thing. It seems like someone should either be held in jail or they shouldn't. Bail just seems like a money-making scheme, one that simultaneously punishes people just because they're poor and gives the rich a privelidge they haven't earned.

Well put.

Sporanox · 1st December 2009, 06:40 PM

Honestly, I don't think Huck shares much culpability here. His delayed assumption of his responsibility in the matter, though, doesn't reflect well on him.

leftysergeant · 1st December 2009, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Cynic

I'm not a big fan of Huckabee (because of his social views) but I'd hate to see a politician go down in flames because a calculated risk went bad. But I'm not all that well-versed about how bad a mistake this might have been.

It wasn't a calculated error. He let the cons con him with the old "I found Jesus" BS.

The last thing this country needs is a religious whackadoodle who lets his religious prejudiices over-ride the mundane laws and whatever he has that passes for common sense.

Buh-bye, Huckleberries. Sucks to have known ya.

Whiplash · 1st December 2009, 06:58 PM

You just can't help yourself, can you Lefty?

tyr_13 · 1st December 2009, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sporanox

Honestly, I don't think Huck shares much culpability here. His delayed assumption of his responsibility in the matter, though, doesn't reflect well on him.

I don't think it's going to ultimately matter if he is or is not culpable to most voters. All that matters is that a spotlight has been shown on his past policy of letting his religious beliefs drive a very, very poor governmental choices. To people who share his religious beliefs that's a plus, unless they don't believe that religious beliefs should drive governmental choices. To almost every single other person it's a huge negative.

Just thinking · 1st December 2009, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by mortimer

It should also be noted that Huckabee commuted his sentence to something like 47 years after Clemmons had served around 16 years. The Arkansas parole board still had to approve his release, which they did with a 5-0 vote. Washington State also allowed him out on a $15,000 bail, knowing his past convictions. There is plenty of blame to be spread about here.

Unfortunately the facts matter very little to too many. When Clemons was given clemency by Huckabee it was actually for very sound reasons, and I doubt anyone on this forum would have done otherwise. He was a teenager in jail for over 11 years on a burglary/robbery charge (without a weapon) serving a 108 year sentence. Seem a tad excessive? --- no other person in Arkansas who committed a similar crime was serving 1/10th that amount. That is why Huckabee granted clemency ... he did not pardon him, he did not parole him (that's done by the parole board). He also was not responsible for the two idiot judges that let him go on $15,000 bail after child rape charges.

It's all too easy to sit back and say NOW that it would have been better to not grant clemency ... and Huckabee has admitted full responsibility for that action. (Just what have those two judges had to say? ... that's right, nothing!). It also would have been better to kill Hitler as a child ... but would anyone have ever thought that way at the time? And as for the "finding Jesus" nonsense ... virtually everyone in prison finds Jesus, so I'm very skeptical that that was the selling reason in this case.

Snide · 1st December 2009, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by Cynic

Or perhaps there is no blame at all to go around. The system is designed with certain assumptions in mind -- that (usually) rehabilitation is possible, that mitigating circumstances should be taken into account, that sometimes sentences are poorly selected, etc. Failures are expected, and as we skeptics know, when something is expected, we shouldn't automatically consider it miraculous when it happens.

Agreed. The only way to ensure we get as many criminals as possible is to lock up all of the suspects. (And even that wouldn't work 100% of the time.) The only way to ensure criminals don't repeat is capital punishment for all convicts, no questions. I don't want to live in a society that does either, and as long as our society does not do either, we are guaranteed that some guilty will avoid punishment, and some convicts will repeat. This is a necessary result of living in a society I think we all want in one shape or another.

This is why I hated the anti-Dukakis (lack of) thinking then, and I hate the anti-Huckabee sentiment now. Shameful.

MattusMaximus · 1st December 2009, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Snide

This is why I hated the anti-Dukakis (lack of) thinking then, and I hate the anti-Huckabee sentiment now. Shameful.

What I find interesting is the hypocrisy on display from a variety of political fronts regarding these developments. But then... it's politics, which is synonymous with hypocrisy

psychictv · 1st December 2009, 08:46 PM

I didn't read the whole thing so apologies if it's already been mentioned, but can I just say... WORST THREAD TITLE MENTAL IMAGE EVER.

Lurker · 2nd December 2009, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by mortimer

It should also be noted that Huckabee commuted his sentence to something like 47 years after Clemmons had served around 16 years. The Arkansas parole board still had to approve his release, which they did with a 5-0 vote. Washington State also allowed him out on a $15,000 bail, knowing his past convictions. There is plenty of blame to be spread about here.

Minor quibble, the bail was $150,000 but a bondsman took $15k and put up the rest, or so I heard.

Tricky · 2nd December 2009, 05:55 AM

Merging similar threads from Politics and Conspiracy Theories.

Posted By:Tricky

ponderingturtle · 2nd December 2009, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Aye. Huckabee's Horton just killed four white cops. I realize I may be jumping the gun here, but it is my opinion that this attack was racially motivated.

I accept that I may be wrong.

DR

Why think that they were attacked because they were white and not because they were cops?

Lurker · 2nd December 2009, 06:29 AM

OK, I listened to a little Hannity on the radio yesterday and he was interviewing Huckabee. They portrayed the whole event as if Maurice Clemmons had only two events on his record; robbery (unarmed) and breaking & entering/theft.

Today I checked Wiki to get the actual history and lo and behold it is pretty apparent that Huckabee and Hannity were lying their arses off. That pissed me off! Here is what information Huckabee should have known by the time he granted clemency:

Quote:

1. Clemmons was arrested when he was a junior at Hall High School for carrying a .25-caliber pistol on school property. He claimed to be carrying the gun because he was "beaten by dopers", and said he had "something for them" if they attacked him again.

2. In 1989, a 17-year-old Clemmons and two other accomplices robbed a woman at midnight in the parking lot of a Little Rock hotel bar. Clemmons pretended to have a gun in his pocket and threatened to shoot her if she did not give him her purse. When she responded, "Well, why don't you just shoot?", Clemmons punched her in the head and ran off with the purse, which contained $16 and a credit card.

3. Clemmons was accused multiple times of displaying violence during court appearances. On one occassion, Clemmons dismantled a metal door stop and hid it in his sock to use as a weapon also reportedly hidden a piece of metal in his sock to use as a weapon. It was discovered and confiscated by a court bailiff. One another instance, Clemmons took a lock from his holding cell and threw it at a bailiff, but missed and accidentally hit his mother instead.

4. Clemmons was once accused of reaching for a guard's pistol while being transported to court. During one trial, he was shackled in leg irons and seated next to a uniformed officer because the presiding judge ordered extra security, claiming Clemmons had threatened him.

5. By 1990, Clemmons was sentenced to 108 years in prison for eight felony charges from his teenage years in Arkansas. The total prison term stemmed from multiple sentences, some of which were concurrent to others and some were consecutive.

6. The largest sentencing came in 1990, when he was given a 60-year prison term for breaking into an Arkansas state trooper's home and stealing about $6,700-worth of items, including a gun.

Huckabee granted him clemency shortening his term from 108 years to 47 years, 5 months and 19 days which just happened to make him elgible for parole that day! Today Huckabee acts as if he just made an unreasonable sentence more reasonable yet it is clearly obvious by his commutation to a very specific length that allowed Clemmons to immediately apply for parole that Huckabee fully intended Clemmons to go free on parole ASAP.

This lying pisses me off as Huckabee certainly knows he is lying and Hannity was supporting the lie. Of course no callers were taken that had the real information.

All that being said, I agree with Huckabee shortening the sentence. I am not outraged by that so much. I am outraged by how he is now trying to spin this to absolve himself of any blame whatsoever instead trying to blame the parole board. Grr!

MattusMaximus · 2nd December 2009, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by psychictv

I didn't read the whole thing so apologies if it's already been mentioned, but can I just say... WORST THREAD TITLE MENTAL IMAGE EVER.

Ewwwwwww...

WildCat · 2nd December 2009, 08:22 AM

I posted this in another thread, but it's also appropriate here:

Originally Posted by WildCat

And this illustrates quite well how "seriously" Huckabee treated his clemency decisions. This is his actual response to Prosecutor Robert Herzfeld's objection to one of his pardons:

4 cops now dead? LOL!

Cynic · 2nd December 2009, 08:35 AM

The typo makes me question its authenticity.

WildCat · 2nd December 2009, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Cynic

The typo makes me question its authenticity.

It's sourced (names names), and the article is from 2004 so it's untainted by either the current incident or the 2008 run for President. It's also a local tri-county Arkansas newspaper, not some political blog.

I see typos all the time in the Chicago Tribune, spell checkers don't catch words spelled correctly but used wrongly. In this instance dropping the "r" from "your" to make "you" instead.

I see no reason to doubt its authenticity.

Cynic · 2nd December 2009, 08:49 AM

You probably right.

Brainster · 2nd December 2009, 09:05 AM

Wow, Wildcat, that letter is disgusting.

30th November 2009, 12:59 PM	#1
Alferd_Packer Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7,212	Huckabee going down? / Huckabee & Clemmons Apparently Mike Huckabee commuted the sentence of the suspect in the Washington Police shooting. Countdown to CTs calling it an Obama plot, 5. . . 4. . . 3. .
	__________________ No laws of physics were broken in the writing of this post

30th November 2009, 01:16 PM	#2
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	I remember the fondness of the GOP for Willie Horton...it will be interesting to see how the story line plays on that side of the aisle for a change.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

30th November 2009, 06:41 PM	#5
Alferd_Packer Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7,212	Originally Posted by dudalb I would'nt bet on that. Huckabee will play the "I was just trying to do the Will of Jeebus" card,and it will go over big with the Born Again Voters. Even Born Again Voters hate cop killers.
	__________________ No laws of physics were broken in the writing of this post

30th November 2009, 06:49 PM	#6
grandthefttoaster Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 184	The same thing happened to Mike Huckabee before the last election, when it was pointed out that Huckabee had paroled Wayne DuMond.
grandthefttoaster Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 184	__________________ Alex Jones gets down with his bad self - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ3d8OzNW9c Last edited by grandthefttoaster; 30th November 2009 at 06:50 PM.

1st December 2009, 06:39 AM	#8
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,700	Ok, am I missing something here. The story I heard about this on the radio seemed to indicate that the parole was done at least several years ago, and the suspect lived a relatively crime-free life for most of that time until recently. While I am no huge fan of Huckabee, I don't really see how this is related to him. Yes, I know how politics work and that any opponents he his in either primaries or general elections will try to use this, but this seems a bit of stretch to me just to score political points.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

30th November 2009, 01:20 PM	#3
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11,515	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 I remember the fondness of the GOP for Willie Horton...it will be interesting to see how the story line plays on that side of the aisle for a change. He leads the polls in Iowa, but I'm pretty sure that this will kill any primary hopes. Which (IMHO as a likely GOP primary voter) is a good thing, and likely the only good thing to come from this horrible mess.

30th November 2009, 03:39 PM	#4
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,814	Originally Posted by carlitos He leads the polls in Iowa, but I'm pretty sure that this will kill any primary hopes. Which (IMHO as a likely GOP primary voter) is a good thing, and likely the only good thing to come from this horrible mess. I would'nt bet on that. Huckabee will play the "I was just trying to do the Will of Jeebus" card,and it will go over big with the Born Again Voters.

1st December 2009, 03:03 AM	#7
Infoexcavator Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 474	Michelle Malkin will not be seen on FoxNews anymore, she commented that Huckabee whitewashed and O'Reilly made softwall questions. Her blog has a lot of info attacking the Huckster http://michellemalkin.com/

1st December 2009, 06:55 AM	#9
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Originally Posted by cwalner Ok, am I missing something here. The story I heard about this on the radio seemed to indicate that the parole was done at least several years ago, and the suspect lived a relatively crime-free life for most of that time until recently. Incorrect. The sentence was commuted in 2000 and he was back in jail a year later. This is from the Arkansas Leader in 2004: Quote: Jegley cites numerous examples of Huckabee's freeing felons who go on committing more crimes and wind up back in prison. Maurice Clemmons received a 35-year sentence in the early 1990s for armed robbery and theft. His sentence was commuted in May 2000, and he was let out three months later. The following March, Clemmons committed two armed robberies and other crimes and was sentenced to 10 years. You'd think they'd keep him locked up after that, but no: He was paroled last March and is now wanted for aggravated robbery. How he was out on the street goes way beyond Huckabee, but the fact the guy would've been in jail for the rest of his life without him pretty much dooms his political future, and for good reason.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet Last edited by Drudgewire; 1st December 2009 at 06:58 AM.

1st December 2009, 08:25 AM	#10
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,700	Originally Posted by Drudgewire Incorrect. The sentence was commuted in 2000 and he was back in jail a year later. This is from the Arkansas Leader in 2004: How he was out on the street goes way beyond Huckabee, but the fact the guy would've been in jail for the rest of his life without him pretty much dooms his political future, and for good reason. Thanks, though I am dissapointed. I expected better from NPR. While some may mark this as liberal bias, I don't see how that is the case, since Huckabee is conservative. It just seems they didn't check thier facts well enough.
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1st December 2009, 09:49 AM	#11
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,175	Huckabee going down? Wow, it looks as if the shootings in Seattle by Maurice Clemmons could be Mike Huckabee's political undoing... Conservatives hammer Mike Huckabee over shooting Quote: The conservative blogosphere unleashed a torrent of criticism against Mike Huckabee Monday after a man whose sentence he commuted as Arkansas governor was suspected of gunning down four police officers in Washington state over the weekend. Maurice Clemmons, whom Huckabee granted clemency to nine years ago, remained at large after local police in Lakewood, Wash. mistakenly thought they had him trapped in a house early Monday. Clemmons is reported to have shot the officers as they were sitting at a table in a local coffee shop. While many details of the murders were still unclear Monday, leading online conservative voices were quick to pass judgment on Huckabee, whose 2008 presidential campaign was forced to respond to accusations that he was too lenient with violent criminals during his years as governor. ... I wonder if this brings Palin, someone who would compete for a lot of the social conservatives who like Huckabee, one step closer to the 2012 GOP nod?
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1st December 2009, 10:00 AM	#12
Policenaut Infidel Defiler Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Shadow Moses Island Posts: 2,193	I still doubt Palin will run but this is definitely bad for Huckabee. We'll see whenever they do another type of straw poll if he still wins like he has the last few. If he loses I think it will be for this reason alone. I don't see anyone else on the R side doing anything that would make them more popular (well maybe Palin with the book) so logically they would only beat Huckabee if this incident tarnished his name.

1st December 2009, 10:37 AM	#13
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 10,427	Huck had said just before this erupted that he probably wasn't going to run in 2012, that he was having too much fun doing his show.
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1st December 2009, 10:48 AM	#14
Cynic Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,331	I'm not a big fan of Huckabee (because of his social views) but I'd hate to see a politician go down in flames because a calculated risk went bad. But I'm not all that well-versed about how bad a mistake this might have been.
	__________________ The slackjaw gaze of true profanity feels more like surrender than defeat -- if culture is the curse of the thinking class. -- Neil Peart

1st December 2009, 11:14 AM	#15
Lurker Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,187	I don't think it reflects negatively on a governor if he commutes a sentence and the ex-con goes out and commits another crime. Mistakes like this will happen. In Huckabee's situation, I think he will have no chance of winning a Republican primary at this point. Republicans pride themselves on being tough on crime and the fact that Huckabee pardoned or commuted more sentences than all of his predecessors will be a debate point for his Republican adversaries. No, his Presidential aspirations have just gone up in smoke. By the way, he was on O'Reilly last night doing damage control and pointing at everyone else but himself.
Lurker Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,187

1st December 2009, 04:45 PM	#16
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Anyone remember the "Willey Horton" adds by the GOP??? What goes around comes around.
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

1st December 2009, 05:24 PM	#17
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 10,427	Let me point out as well that Huckabee's taking the flak mostly from conservatives on this; the first one that Politico notes is Michelle Malkin. It is often claimed that the theocons have taken over the GOP, and yet Huckabee got almost no support from the major conservative bloggers in 2008. Indeed, they were actively hostile to his candidacy, even though he was the evangelical candidate in the race.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

1st December 2009, 05:43 PM	#18
mortimer NWO Janitor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 3,476	It should also be noted that Huckabee commuted his sentence to something like 47 years after Clemmons had served around 16 years. The Arkansas parole board still had to approve his release, which they did with a 5-0 vote. Washington State also allowed him out on a $15,000 bail, knowing his past convictions. There is plenty of blame to be spread about here.
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1st December 2009, 06:14 PM	#19
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,257	Originally Posted by Tmy Anyone remember the "Willey Horton" adds by the GOP??? What goes around comes around. Aye. Huckabee's Horton just killed four white cops. I realize I may be jumping the gun here, but it is my opinion that this attack was racially motivated. I accept that I may be wrong. DR
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1st December 2009, 06:17 PM	#20
Cynic Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,331	Or perhaps there is no blame at all to go around. The system is designed with certain assumptions in mind -- that (usually) rehabilitation is possible, that mitigating circumstances should be taken into account, that sometimes sentences are poorly selected, etc. Failures are expected, and as we skeptics know, when something is expected, we shouldn't automatically consider it miraculous when it happens. I'll admit a little shadenfreude when bad things befall politicians I don't like, but I consider myself to be principled and would never hold this against Huckabee. That his own party is, is, well, perhaps evidence of something else. ;-) As for Washington... maybe. I've never quite understood the bail thing. It seems like someone should either be held in jail or they shouldn't. Bail just seems like a money-making scheme, one that simultaneously punishes people just because they're poor and gives the rich a privelidge they haven't earned.
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1st December 2009, 06:18 PM	#21
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,756	Originally Posted by Brainster Huck had said just before this erupted that he probably wasn't going to run in 2012, that he was having too much fun doing his show. I don't believe that. I believe that it's just too early for any candidate to throw their hat in the ring yet, so they downplay it and suggest that they are not really interested. Standard stuff. Especially if it's not a categorical denial, which this wasn't. ETA: IIRC Huckabee recently won the Values Voters straw poll.
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1st December 2009, 06:25 PM	#22
mortimer NWO Janitor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 3,476	Originally Posted by Cynic Or perhaps there is no blame at all to go around. The system is designed with certain assumptions in mind -- that (usually) rehabilitation is possible, that mitigating circumstances should be taken into account, that sometimes sentences are poorly selected, etc. Failures are expected, and as we skeptics know, when something is expected, we shouldn't automatically consider it miraculous when it happens. I'll admit a little shadenfreude when bad things befall politicians I don't like, but I consider myself to be principled and would never hold this against Huckabee. That his own party is, is, well, perhaps evidence of something else. ;-) As for Washington... maybe. I've never quite understood the bail thing. It seems like someone should either be held in jail or they shouldn't. Bail just seems like a money-making scheme, one that simultaneously punishes people just because they're poor and gives the rich a privelidge they haven't earned. Well put.
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1st December 2009, 06:40 PM	#23
Sporanox Muse Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: in the black Posts: 899	Honestly, I don't think Huck shares much culpability here. His delayed assumption of his responsibility in the matter, though, doesn't reflect well on him.
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1st December 2009, 06:54 PM	#24
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Originally Posted by Cynic I'm not a big fan of Huckabee (because of his social views) but I'd hate to see a politician go down in flames because a calculated risk went bad. But I'm not all that well-versed about how bad a mistake this might have been. It wasn't a calculated error. He let the cons con him with the old "I found Jesus" BS. The last thing this country needs is a religious whackadoodle who lets his religious prejudiices over-ride the mundane laws and whatever he has that passes for common sense. Buh-bye, Huckleberries. Sucks to have known ya.

1st December 2009, 06:58 PM	#25
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 5,389	You just can't help yourself, can you Lefty?
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1st December 2009, 07:27 PM	#26
tyr_13 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Falconer, NY Posts: 9,658	Originally Posted by Sporanox Honestly, I don't think Huck shares much culpability here. His delayed assumption of his responsibility in the matter, though, doesn't reflect well on him. I don't think it's going to ultimately matter if he is or is not culpable to most voters. All that matters is that a spotlight has been shown on his past policy of letting his religious beliefs drive a very, very poor governmental choices. To people who share his religious beliefs that's a plus, unless they don't believe that religious beliefs should drive governmental choices. To almost every single other person it's a huge negative.
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1st December 2009, 07:57 PM	#27
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	Originally Posted by mortimer It should also be noted that Huckabee commuted his sentence to something like 47 years after Clemmons had served around 16 years. The Arkansas parole board still had to approve his release, which they did with a 5-0 vote. Washington State also allowed him out on a $15,000 bail, knowing his past convictions. There is plenty of blame to be spread about here. Unfortunately the facts matter very little to too many. When Clemons was given clemency by Huckabee it was actually for very sound reasons, and I doubt anyone on this forum would have done otherwise. He was a teenager in jail for over 11 years on a burglary/robbery charge (without a weapon) serving a 108 year sentence. Seem a tad excessive? --- no other person in Arkansas who committed a similar crime was serving 1/10th that amount. That is why Huckabee granted clemency ... he did not pardon him, he did not parole him (that's done by the parole board). He also was not responsible for the two idiot judges that let him go on $15,000 bail after child rape charges. It's all too easy to sit back and say NOW that it would have been better to not grant clemency ... and Huckabee has admitted full responsibility for that action. (Just what have those two judges had to say? ... that's right, nothing!). It also would have been better to kill Hitler as a child ... but would anyone have ever thought that way at the time? And as for the "finding Jesus" nonsense ... virtually everyone in prison finds Jesus, so I'm very skeptical that that was the selling reason in this case.
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1st December 2009, 08:05 PM	#28
Snide Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Twin Cities Posts: 3,187	Originally Posted by Cynic Or perhaps there is no blame at all to go around. The system is designed with certain assumptions in mind -- that (usually) rehabilitation is possible, that mitigating circumstances should be taken into account, that sometimes sentences are poorly selected, etc. Failures are expected, and as we skeptics know, when something is expected, we shouldn't automatically consider it miraculous when it happens. Agreed. The only way to ensure we get as many criminals as possible is to lock up all of the suspects. (And even that wouldn't work 100% of the time.) The only way to ensure criminals don't repeat is capital punishment for all convicts, no questions. I don't want to live in a society that does either, and as long as our society does not do either, we are guaranteed that some guilty will avoid punishment, and some convicts will repeat. This is a necessary result of living in a society I think we all want in one shape or another. This is why I hated the anti-Dukakis (lack of) thinking then, and I hate the anti-Huckabee sentiment now. Shameful.

1st December 2009, 08:23 PM	#29
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,175	Originally Posted by Snide This is why I hated the anti-Dukakis (lack of) thinking then, and I hate the anti-Huckabee sentiment now. Shameful. What I find interesting is the hypocrisy on display from a variety of political fronts regarding these developments. But then... it's politics, which is synonymous with hypocrisy
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1st December 2009, 08:46 PM	#30
psychictv Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 535	I didn't read the whole thing so apologies if it's already been mentioned, but can I just say... WORST THREAD TITLE MENTAL IMAGE EVER.
psychictv Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 535

2nd December 2009, 05:55 AM	#31
Lurker Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,187	Originally Posted by mortimer It should also be noted that Huckabee commuted his sentence to something like 47 years after Clemmons had served around 16 years. The Arkansas parole board still had to approve his release, which they did with a 5-0 vote. Washington State also allowed him out on a $15,000 bail, knowing his past convictions. There is plenty of blame to be spread about here. Minor quibble, the bail was $150,000 but a bondsman took $15k and put up the rest, or so I heard.
Lurker Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,187

2nd December 2009, 06:06 AM	#33
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,424	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Aye. Huckabee's Horton just killed four white cops. I realize I may be jumping the gun here, but it is my opinion that this attack was racially motivated. I accept that I may be wrong. DR Why think that they were attacked because they were white and not because they were cops?
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2nd December 2009, 06:29 AM	#34
Lurker Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,187	OK, I listened to a little Hannity on the radio yesterday and he was interviewing Huckabee. They portrayed the whole event as if Maurice Clemmons had only two events on his record; robbery (unarmed) and breaking & entering/theft. Today I checked Wiki to get the actual history and lo and behold it is pretty apparent that Huckabee and Hannity were lying their arses off. That pissed me off! Here is what information Huckabee should have known by the time he granted clemency: Quote: 1. Clemmons was arrested when he was a junior at Hall High School for carrying a .25-caliber pistol on school property. He claimed to be carrying the gun because he was "beaten by dopers", and said he had "something for them" if they attacked him again. 2. In 1989, a 17-year-old Clemmons and two other accomplices robbed a woman at midnight in the parking lot of a Little Rock hotel bar. Clemmons pretended to have a gun in his pocket and threatened to shoot her if she did not give him her purse. When she responded, "Well, why don't you just shoot?", Clemmons punched her in the head and ran off with the purse, which contained $16 and a credit card. 3. Clemmons was accused multiple times of displaying violence during court appearances. On one occassion, Clemmons dismantled a metal door stop and hid it in his sock to use as a weapon also reportedly hidden a piece of metal in his sock to use as a weapon. It was discovered and confiscated by a court bailiff. One another instance, Clemmons took a lock from his holding cell and threw it at a bailiff, but missed and accidentally hit his mother instead. 4. Clemmons was once accused of reaching for a guard's pistol while being transported to court. During one trial, he was shackled in leg irons and seated next to a uniformed officer because the presiding judge ordered extra security, claiming Clemmons had threatened him. 5. By 1990, Clemmons was sentenced to 108 years in prison for eight felony charges from his teenage years in Arkansas. The total prison term stemmed from multiple sentences, some of which were concurrent to others and some were consecutive. 6. The largest sentencing came in 1990, when he was given a 60-year prison term for breaking into an Arkansas state trooper's home and stealing about $6,700-worth of items, including a gun. Huckabee granted him clemency shortening his term from 108 years to 47 years, 5 months and 19 days which just happened to make him elgible for parole that day! Today Huckabee acts as if he just made an unreasonable sentence more reasonable yet it is clearly obvious by his commutation to a very specific length that allowed Clemmons to immediately apply for parole that Huckabee fully intended Clemmons to go free on parole ASAP. This lying pisses me off as Huckabee certainly knows he is lying and Hannity was supporting the lie. Of course no callers were taken that had the real information. All that being said, I agree with Huckabee shortening the sentence. I am not outraged by that so much. I am outraged by how he is now trying to spin this to absolve himself of any blame whatsoever instead trying to blame the parole board. Grr!
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2nd December 2009, 07:19 AM	#35
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,175	Originally Posted by psychictv I didn't read the whole thing so apologies if it's already been mentioned, but can I just say... WORST THREAD TITLE MENTAL IMAGE EVER. Ewwwwwww...
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2nd December 2009, 08:22 AM	#36
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,031	I posted this in another thread, but it's also appropriate here: Originally Posted by WildCat And this illustrates quite well how "seriously" Huckabee treated his clemency decisions. This is his actual response to Prosecutor Robert Herzfeld's objection to one of his pardons: 4 cops now dead? LOL!