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kittynh · 2nd January 2004, 08:10 PM

you can even find proof of the paranormal on ebay...
though if the monster is real, isnt it just another animal

the odd part is that this doesn't seem to be a joke card...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6&category=915

WildCat · 2nd January 2004, 10:10 PM

That card is the Scottish version of the jackalope.
The pic looks like an iguana foot.

CFLarsen · 2nd January 2004, 11:15 PM

Nessie has now only three feet??

(Incidentally, the foot indicates a land-living animal, not an aquatic one.....)

Maledict · 3rd January 2004, 12:22 AM

My first impression was that it was an amalgamation of a lump of tree bark, an acorn, and several animal talons (Which is what it probably is most likely).

SteveGrenard · 3rd January 2004, 02:08 AM

Its not an iguana foot. It is a crocodilian foot but it is impossible to say which species. If it is really as large as they say it is from an Australian Saltwater Crocodile (Australian "saltie") which is the world's largest croc.

Its size could be judged by the relationship between the diameter of the lower bit of leg attached and the foot itself.

It compares in that respect with the leg showing in the following photo.

Its a front foot also which is not as webbed as the rear feett. Crocodilians have extensive webbing (for swimming) in rear feet but much less in front feet. The webbing, what's present, cannot be seen in this photo and this is often the case. The front webbing can be seen only with the foot widely spread out or
by closer examination.

Take a look at this record buster:

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herp...ocs/!cpor5.htm

SteveGrenard · 3rd January 2004, 09:00 AM

An expert on salties looked at the photo and he says the articulation of the toes, # of toes and the flap of tissue indicates that it is a back foot.

Although webbing on back feet is prominent, it is not visible in this photo and can be seen only when the toes are spread apart.

"There are only four toes, and the articulation is wrong for a front foot. Also, the enlarged "mercurial" scales on the trailing edge of the foot are only found
on back feet. Might be a saltie, but if so it's only a small one (1.5 metres, roughly) judging from the relative size and shape of the claws"

Another croc expert said it could also be the foot of a Nile Crocodile.

Anyway, so much for loch ness monster feet.

kittynh · 3rd January 2004, 03:18 PM

so Loch Ness has crocodiles....wow....

Soapy Sam · 3rd January 2004, 03:47 PM

Aye! We throw them to the penguins!

SteveGrenard · 3rd January 2004, 05:22 PM

This is obviously also a a foot and part of the lower leg that was ripped off or came off a taxidermied crocodile specimen.

Abdul Alhazred · 3rd January 2004, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kittynh
you can even find proof of the paranormal on ebay...
though if the monster is real, isnt it just another animal

the odd part is that this doesn't seem to be a joke card...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6&category=915

OK. Now what about the Lake Champlain Monster? What is Democrat front runner Howard Dean's position on the allleged monster in his home state?

I won't know how to vote until he says something.

lilac · 3rd January 2004, 08:15 PM

Oh my God- it's a scary, scaly fake! The lake monster picture isn't that believable either.

SteveGrenard · 3rd January 2004, 08:34 PM

There is nothing fake about the leg except that it is not from any Loch Ness Monster, its from a existing , well now dead, crocodilian. Here's a follow-up I got by e-mail from a crocodilian biologist as we have been discussing it elsewhere:

"The pic is obviously the left hind foot of a crocodile (Crocodylus). Probably a captive deformed animal from the looks of the overgrown, abnormal scales forming the typical crocodilian crest along the posterior margin of the hind foot. It has four toes, as do crocodilian hind feet. The elongated overgrown toe nails are probably from being kept in a small confined area in a captive situation where there was no opportunity for the animal the wear its toenails down - probably a smooth surfaced (fiberglass, glass, sheetmetal?) tank, tub, or pool. Can't tell how big the foot is or how old it is.

"Save your money folks. There are a billion of these feet floating around as alligator keychains, compliments of alligator and caiman tourist curios. "PB

Ed · 4th January 2004, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

OK. Now what about the Lake Champlain Monster? What is Democrat front runner Howard Dean's position on the allleged monster in his home state?

I won't know how to vote until he says something.

They resemble each other. Could it be .....?

Kerberos · 4th January 2004, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
There is nothing fake about the leg except that it is not from any Loch Ness Monster, its from a existing , well now dead, crocodilian. Here's a follow-up I got by e-mail from a crocodilian biologist as we have been discussing it elsewhere:

"The pic is obviously the left hind foot of a crocodile (Crocodylus). Probably a captive deformed animal from the looks of the overgrown, abnormal scales forming the typical crocodilian crest along the posterior margin of the hind foot. It has four toes, as do crocodilian hind feet. The elongated overgrown toe nails are probably from being kept in a small confined area in a captive situation where there was no opportunity for the animal the wear its toenails down - probably a smooth surfaced (fiberglass, glass, sheetmetal?) tank, tub, or pool. Can't tell how big the foot is or how old it is.

"Save your money folks. There are a billion of these feet floating around as alligator keychains, compliments of alligator and caiman tourist curios. "PB

This is highly irregular - you're the one who's supposed to defend these claims and we'll debunk them! you're invading our territory

SteveGrenard · 4th January 2004, 06:57 AM

One can't defend the claims of any large, unknown aquatic reptile such as a pleiosaur surviving in Loch Ness, Lake Champlain or anywhere else unless or until we have the specimen in captivity. Photos and sightings to date can be explained away by natural means or fakery such as this taxidermied crocodile curio.

When I see it, all of it, captured dead or alive, then I'll believe it. This was the case with the giant/colossal squid, with the coelacanth and other animals previously reported but unverified by science.

For the latest scoop on giant squid see:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2910849.stm

News on coelacanth finds:

New York Times September 24, 1998

Second Home of Fish From Dinosaur Age Is Found

By MALCOLM W. BROWNE

The coelacanth, a very rare fish with a pedigree older
than the dinosaurs, has delighted biologists by turning up in Indonesia.
Two of these ugly but fascinating fish have been discovered nearly 6,000
miles from the coast of southern Africa, the only place in the world where
coelacanths had hitherto been found

See rest of story on: http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199809/0438.html.

kittynh · 4th January 2004, 08:57 AM

It's one thing to find an unknown animal or fish in the vast ocean, or a deepest rainforest. But, Loch Ness has more eyes on it looking for a monster than any place else on earth. As for Champy, the locals don't buy it. One supposed film of Champy was nothing but frolicking otters. another hump photo was a well known rock that has been sitting there for quite awhile.

Abdul Alhazred · 4th January 2004, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kittynh
It's one thing to find an unknown animal or fish in the vast ocean, or a deepest rainforest. But, Loch Ness has more eyes on it looking for a monster than any place else on earth. As for Champy, the locals don't buy it. One supposed film of Champy was nothing but frolicking otters. another hump photo was a well known rock that has been sitting there for quite awhile.

I don't know how the Loch Ness thing got started, and I'd be surprised if many living there "buy it", except for the tourist industry.

I do know that Champy was invented by the Vermont tourist industry.

BTW, Burlington is worth visiting anyway, as is the Shelbourne Museum. And Lake Champlain is truly impressive as is any lake big enough to have a far shore over the horizon.

Shining big sea water. And good fishing.

SteveGrenard · 4th January 2004, 09:14 AM

I don't think being in the depths of the ocean is the only reason new species are not discovered. Coelacanths were brought up first by fisherman near the coast of So Africa at not that great a depth. If I recall some or maybe just one washed ashore dead. The colossal squid, however, does inhabit the abyss.
And there is some famous footage of a Univ of Florida biologist standing on a beach with a dead giant squid nearby that washed ashore.

Although new bugs and other insects are discovered all the time, we have had some recent notable larger species discovered including two new species of deer in Viet Nam, a new species of pheasant, 100 new species of frogs in Sri Lanka and two new Amazonian primates recently as well. The VietNam string of disocveries which are far from over just yet is described at: http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~vern/species.html

I agree that with so many eyes watching Loch Ness and so many intensive expeditions to find or record Nessie, it should have shown up long before now and this puts a lot of doubt on its existence.

Ed · 4th January 2004, 09:30 AM

I love the concept of big hidden things in the deep.

I have often wondered why, for example, Charcarodon Megalodon would not still be thriving. Or those cool Pleiseasaurs.

I guess I am just a Woo at heart.

CFLarsen · 4th January 2004, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
I agree that with so many eyes watching Loch Ness and so many intensive expeditions to find or record Nessie, it should have shown up long before now and this puts a lot of doubt on its existence.

I got one word for you, Steve: Psychics.

Ed · 4th January 2004, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen

I got one word for you, Steve: Psychics.

Two words "paranormal research"

Abdul Alhazred · 4th January 2004, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
I love the concept of big hidden things in the deep.

The Loch Ness monster and Champy are phoney-baloney, but my erstwhile roommate is not.

Currently devouring the souls of soccer moms in the outer Boroughs of New York City.

Kerberos · 4th January 2004, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
One can't defend the claims of any large, unknown aquatic reptile such as a pleiosaur surviving in Loch Ness, Lake Champlain or anywhere else unless or until we have the specimen in captivity. Photos and sightings to date can be explained away by natural means or fakery such as this taxidermied crocodile curio.

When I see it, all of it, captured dead or alive, then I'll believe it. This was the case with the giant/colossal squid, with the coelacanth and other animals previously reported but unverified by science.

Very well you leave me no choice

\exiting skeptic mode\

How can you disregard all the evidence for the existence of the Loch Ness Monster?!?!?

So many reliable people have seen it for so many years, do you really think they're ALL lying????

You''ve yourself quoted an expert for saying that the foot has "overgrown, abnormal scales" so it's clearly NOT a normal crocodille. Nessi is probably a crocodille that has grown to abnormal size and achieved immortality, due to the UFO radiation that hits the lake!!!!

http://www.lochness.co.uk/livecam/

Take that your close minded pseudo-skeptic

GreyPilgrim · 7th March 2006, 05:53 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4779248.stm

GreyPilgrim · 7th March 2006, 05:54 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4651679.stm

Rolfe · 7th March 2006, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

I don't know how the Loch Ness thing got started, and I'd be surprised if many living there "buy it", except for the tourist industry.

By pure coincidence I was half-listening to the radio last night and heard the statement that the Nessie idea is thought to have been begun by a circus owner (someone wellknown, he was named) who was performing in the area, and watched one of his elephants having a swim/wallow in the loch.

Rolfe.

Oops, sorry, I should read to the end of a thread before replying, I guess....

walthrup48 · 7th March 2006, 06:47 AM

This story's also covered in today's Daily Mail (page 15) and The Sun (pages 32 & 33).

Azrael 5 · 7th March 2006, 07:05 AM

Sounds highly plausible.The Sun's graphic is quite convincing.Thoughts?

egslim · 7th March 2006, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by GreyPilgrim

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4651679.stm

Beautiful!

I may start an insurance company specialising in insurances against damage through paranormal means - what annual rate do you suppose I could charge for insuring against voodoo curses?

Bronze Dog · 7th March 2006, 07:49 AM

Looks like eBay's pulled it.

richardm · 7th March 2006, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

Sounds highly plausible.The Sun's graphic is quite convincing.Thoughts?

Well... there has been supposedly a monster in Loch Ness for many hundreds of years so a 1930s elephant wouldn't cut it.

For me the most significant nail in Jumbo's coffin is the "Surgeon's Photo" - one of the most famous and the one which started off the modern hoo-ha. It was (as far as I'm aware) the first to depict the long neck that's now being portrayed as a trunk. Prior to that the monster was described as a huge lumbering thing, often on the land, not infrequently described as being like a horse (a reference to an each uisge, perhaps?). But that photo was - according to the deathbed confession of the photographer - a hoax of clay and a toy submarine. So where does that leave Nellie now?

richardm · 7th March 2006, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by richardm

So where does that leave Nellie now?

And more importantly, where does that leave the hoteliers now that the new season is approaching? In the news, that's where!

Rolfe · 7th March 2006, 09:43 AM

There's no reason why a bit of invention inspired by a bathing elephant couldn't have built on the earlier each uisge stories.

Rolfe.

richardm · 7th March 2006, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

There's no reason why a bit of invention inspired by a bathing elephant couldn't have built on the earlier each uisge stories.

That's true, but the claimed aim of the hoax was to produce something resembling a sea serpent, which one might expect to look rather like the picture. I don't think elephants need to be invoked but, well, who knows?

Dr Adequate · 7th March 2006, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by richardm

Well... there has been supposedly a monster in Loch Ness for many hundreds of years so a 1930s elephant wouldn't cut it.

Well ... supposedly.

Are you thinking of St Columba?

Loch Ness Monster^SW

Azrael 5 · 7th March 2006, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Well ... supposedly.

Are you thinking of St Columba?

Loch Ness Monster^SW

So 1933 then! It's an elephant,case closed!
There was a riudiculous comment on the radio today,I think Talksport,that you could fit the world's population into Loch Ness!

Sport fans,not renowed for impartial thought!!

geni · 7th March 2006, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

There's no reason why a bit of invention inspired by a bathing elephant couldn't have built on the earlier each uisge stories.

Rolfe.

Problem is that if you missjudge the distance a Roe Deer would look even more monster like.

Rolfe · 8th March 2006, 02:30 AM

I know what you mean about distance. I was cycling on a canal towpath one afternoon when I looked across the canal and saw what I first thought was an enormous black cat, almost puma-sized, in the field on the other side. However, when I looked for a few moments longer I could see that it was actually a very ordinary black cat, probably about 5kg. The point was that it was walking across a featureless grass field, with no immediate scaling references, and my brain had at first interpreted it as much bigger than it was. Only on longer observation, taking note of such scaling references as there were, was the true size apparent. If all I'd ever got was the initial glimpse, I'd have been declaring there was a puma loose in Hebden Bridge!

Rolfe.

Shaun from Scotland · 8th March 2006, 04:44 AM

There is no hoax. Nessie is real. Come to sunny Scotland. Spend money. All major credit cards accepted.

Nucular · 8th March 2006, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Well ... supposedly.

Are you thinking of St Columba?

Loch Ness Monster^SW

Good article, but ironically a more thorough sceptical account of Columba's alleged sighting is given at gospelcom.net (confusingly).

Just have a quick read of Adomnán's Vita Columbae, wherein the tale was originally recounted (see Book II, Chapter XXVIII), to get a feel for the trustworthiness of these tales of Columba's life. Can you find any that might just be partly true?

Clue: the work is divided into three books: Of his Prophetic Revelations; On his Miraculous Powers; and Of the Visions of Angels.

2nd January 2004, 08:10 PM	#1
kittynh The Hupsu Detective auctioneer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: If I told the aliens could find me, and you know they read this forum Posts: 22,726	loch ness monster....here's proof you can even find proof of the paranormal on ebay... though if the monster is real, isnt it just another animal the odd part is that this doesn't seem to be a joke card... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6&category=915
	__________________ WWW.BADALIEN.ORG - not all the buttons work yet, and the science content is coming...but it's ALIVE!

2nd January 2004, 11:15 PM	#3
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Nessie has now only three feet?? (Incidentally, the foot indicates a land-living animal, not an aquatic one.....)
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

3rd January 2004, 12:22 AM	#4
Maledict Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: City of Dis Posts: 520	My first impression was that it was an amalgamation of a lump of tree bark, an acorn, and several animal talons (Which is what it probably is most likely).
	__________________ Formerly known as "RabbiSatan" "Never regret thy fall from grace, O' spirit of Icarian flight, for the greatest tragedy of them all to face, is to never feel the burning bright" \| Ca.org Sketchbook \| Live Stream \| Website \|

3rd January 2004, 03:18 PM	#7
kittynh The Hupsu Detective auctioneer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: If I told the aliens could find me, and you know they read this forum Posts: 22,726	so Loch Ness has crocodiles....wow....
	__________________ WWW.BADALIEN.ORG - not all the buttons work yet, and the science content is coming...but it's ALIVE!

3rd January 2004, 03:47 PM	#8
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,907	Aye! We throw them to the penguins!
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,907

2nd January 2004, 10:10 PM	#2
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,457	That card is the Scottish version of the jackalope. The pic looks like an iguana foot.

3rd January 2004, 02:08 AM	#5
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	Its not an iguana foot. It is a crocodilian foot but it is impossible to say which species. If it is really as large as they say it is from an Australian Saltwater Crocodile (Australian "saltie") which is the world's largest croc. Its size could be judged by the relationship between the diameter of the lower bit of leg attached and the foot itself. It compares in that respect with the leg showing in the following photo. Its a front foot also which is not as webbed as the rear feett. Crocodilians have extensive webbing (for swimming) in rear feet but much less in front feet. The webbing, what's present, cannot be seen in this photo and this is often the case. The front webbing can be seen only with the foot widely spread out or by closer examination. Take a look at this record buster: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herp...ocs/!cpor5.htm

3rd January 2004, 09:00 AM	#6
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	An expert on salties looked at the photo and he says the articulation of the toes, # of toes and the flap of tissue indicates that it is a back foot. Although webbing on back feet is prominent, it is not visible in this photo and can be seen only when the toes are spread apart. "There are only four toes, and the articulation is wrong for a front foot. Also, the enlarged "mercurial" scales on the trailing edge of the foot are only found on back feet. Might be a saltie, but if so it's only a small one (1.5 metres, roughly) judging from the relative size and shape of the claws" Another croc expert said it could also be the foot of a Nile Crocodile. Anyway, so much for loch ness monster feet.

3rd January 2004, 05:22 PM	#9
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	This is obviously also a a foot and part of the lower leg that was ripped off or came off a taxidermied crocodile specimen.

3rd January 2004, 05:46 PM	#10
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 5,508	Re: loch ness monster....here's proof Quote: Originally posted by kittynh you can even find proof of the paranormal on ebay... though if the monster is real, isnt it just another animal the odd part is that this doesn't seem to be a joke card... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6&category=915 OK. Now what about the Lake Champlain Monster? What is Democrat front runner Howard Dean's position on the allleged monster in his home state? I won't know how to vote until he says something.
	__________________ The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.

3rd January 2004, 08:15 PM	#11
lilac New Blood Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 11	Oh my God- it's a scary, scaly fake! The lake monster picture isn't that believable either.
lilac New Blood Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 11

3rd January 2004, 08:34 PM	#12
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	There is nothing fake about the leg except that it is not from any Loch Ness Monster, its from a existing , well now dead, crocodilian. Here's a follow-up I got by e-mail from a crocodilian biologist as we have been discussing it elsewhere: "The pic is obviously the left hind foot of a crocodile (Crocodylus). Probably a captive deformed animal from the looks of the overgrown, abnormal scales forming the typical crocodilian crest along the posterior margin of the hind foot. It has four toes, as do crocodilian hind feet. The elongated overgrown toe nails are probably from being kept in a small confined area in a captive situation where there was no opportunity for the animal the wear its toenails down - probably a smooth surfaced (fiberglass, glass, sheetmetal?) tank, tub, or pool. Can't tell how big the foot is or how old it is. "Save your money folks. There are a billion of these feet floating around as alligator keychains, compliments of alligator and caiman tourist curios. "PB

4th January 2004, 06:16 AM	#13
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	Re: Re: loch ness monster....here's proof Quote: Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred OK. Now what about the Lake Champlain Monster? What is Democrat front runner Howard Dean's position on the allleged monster in his home state? I won't know how to vote until he says something. They resemble each other. Could it be .....?
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

4th January 2004, 06:28 AM	#14
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by SteveGrenard There is nothing fake about the leg except that it is not from any Loch Ness Monster, its from a existing , well now dead, crocodilian. Here's a follow-up I got by e-mail from a crocodilian biologist as we have been discussing it elsewhere: "The pic is obviously the left hind foot of a crocodile (Crocodylus). Probably a captive deformed animal from the looks of the overgrown, abnormal scales forming the typical crocodilian crest along the posterior margin of the hind foot. It has four toes, as do crocodilian hind feet. The elongated overgrown toe nails are probably from being kept in a small confined area in a captive situation where there was no opportunity for the animal the wear its toenails down - probably a smooth surfaced (fiberglass, glass, sheetmetal?) tank, tub, or pool. Can't tell how big the foot is or how old it is. "Save your money folks. There are a billion of these feet floating around as alligator keychains, compliments of alligator and caiman tourist curios. "PB This is highly irregular - you're the one who's supposed to defend these claims and we'll debunk them! you're invading our territory
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

4th January 2004, 06:57 AM	#15
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	One can't defend the claims of any large, unknown aquatic reptile such as a pleiosaur surviving in Loch Ness, Lake Champlain or anywhere else unless or until we have the specimen in captivity. Photos and sightings to date can be explained away by natural means or fakery such as this taxidermied crocodile curio. When I see it, all of it, captured dead or alive, then I'll believe it. This was the case with the giant/colossal squid, with the coelacanth and other animals previously reported but unverified by science. For the latest scoop on giant squid see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2910849.stm News on coelacanth finds: New York Times September 24, 1998 Second Home of Fish From Dinosaur Age Is Found By MALCOLM W. BROWNE The coelacanth, a very rare fish with a pedigree older than the dinosaurs, has delighted biologists by turning up in Indonesia. Two of these ugly but fascinating fish have been discovered nearly 6,000 miles from the coast of southern Africa, the only place in the world where coelacanths had hitherto been found See rest of story on: http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199809/0438.html.

4th January 2004, 08:57 AM	#16
kittynh The Hupsu Detective auctioneer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: If I told the aliens could find me, and you know they read this forum Posts: 22,726	It's one thing to find an unknown animal or fish in the vast ocean, or a deepest rainforest. But, Loch Ness has more eyes on it looking for a monster than any place else on earth. As for Champy, the locals don't buy it. One supposed film of Champy was nothing but frolicking otters. another hump photo was a well known rock that has been sitting there for quite awhile.
	__________________ WWW.BADALIEN.ORG - not all the buttons work yet, and the science content is coming...but it's ALIVE!

4th January 2004, 09:10 AM	#17
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 5,508	Quote: Originally posted by kittynh It's one thing to find an unknown animal or fish in the vast ocean, or a deepest rainforest. But, Loch Ness has more eyes on it looking for a monster than any place else on earth. As for Champy, the locals don't buy it. One supposed film of Champy was nothing but frolicking otters. another hump photo was a well known rock that has been sitting there for quite awhile. I don't know how the Loch Ness thing got started, and I'd be surprised if many living there "buy it", except for the tourist industry. I do know that Champy was invented by the Vermont tourist industry. BTW, Burlington is worth visiting anyway, as is the Shelbourne Museum. And Lake Champlain is truly impressive as is any lake big enough to have a far shore over the horizon. Shining big sea water. And good fishing.
	__________________ The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.

4th January 2004, 09:14 AM	#18
SteveGrenard Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wherever the airline sends my luggage Posts: 5,528	I don't think being in the depths of the ocean is the only reason new species are not discovered. Coelacanths were brought up first by fisherman near the coast of So Africa at not that great a depth. If I recall some or maybe just one washed ashore dead. The colossal squid, however, does inhabit the abyss. And there is some famous footage of a Univ of Florida biologist standing on a beach with a dead giant squid nearby that washed ashore. Although new bugs and other insects are discovered all the time, we have had some recent notable larger species discovered including two new species of deer in Viet Nam, a new species of pheasant, 100 new species of frogs in Sri Lanka and two new Amazonian primates recently as well. The VietNam string of disocveries which are far from over just yet is described at: http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~vern/species.html I agree that with so many eyes watching Loch Ness and so many intensive expeditions to find or record Nessie, it should have shown up long before now and this puts a lot of doubt on its existence.

4th January 2004, 09:30 AM	#19
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	I love the concept of big hidden things in the deep. I have often wondered why, for example, Charcarodon Megalodon would not still be thriving. Or those cool Pleiseasaurs. I guess I am just a Woo at heart.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

4th January 2004, 09:36 AM	#20
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by SteveGrenard I agree that with so many eyes watching Loch Ness and so many intensive expeditions to find or record Nessie, it should have shown up long before now and this puts a lot of doubt on its existence. I got one word for you, Steve: Psychics.
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4th January 2004, 10:07 AM	#21
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen I got one word for you, Steve: Psychics. Two words "paranormal research"
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

4th January 2004, 10:12 AM	#22
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 5,508	Quote: Originally posted by Ed I love the concept of big hidden things in the deep. The Loch Ness monster and Champy are phoney-baloney, but my erstwhile roommate is not. Currently devouring the souls of soccer moms in the outer Boroughs of New York City.
	__________________ The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.

4th January 2004, 10:39 PM	#23
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by SteveGrenard One can't defend the claims of any large, unknown aquatic reptile such as a pleiosaur surviving in Loch Ness, Lake Champlain or anywhere else unless or until we have the specimen in captivity. Photos and sightings to date can be explained away by natural means or fakery such as this taxidermied crocodile curio. When I see it, all of it, captured dead or alive, then I'll believe it. This was the case with the giant/colossal squid, with the coelacanth and other animals previously reported but unverified by science. Very well you leave me no choice \exiting skeptic mode\ How can you disregard all the evidence for the existence of the Loch Ness Monster?!?!? So many reliable people have seen it for so many years, do you really think they're ALL lying???? You''ve yourself quoted an expert for saying that the foot has "overgrown, abnormal scales" so it's clearly NOT a normal crocodille. Nessi is probably a crocodille that has grown to abnormal size and achieved immortality, due to the UFO radiation that hits the lake!!!! http://www.lochness.co.uk/livecam/ Take that your close minded pseudo-skeptic
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

7th March 2006, 05:53 AM	#24
GreyPilgrim Thinker Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 172	Nessie wears trunks!!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4779248.stm
GreyPilgrim Thinker Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 172	__________________ "Television, the drug of the nation. Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation" - Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy

7th March 2006, 05:54 AM	#25
GreyPilgrim Thinker Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 172	and just following the link from there... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4651679.stm
GreyPilgrim Thinker Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 172	__________________ "Television, the drug of the nation. Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation" - Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy

7th March 2006, 06:07 AM	#26
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,406	Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred I don't know how the Loch Ness thing got started, and I'd be surprised if many living there "buy it", except for the tourist industry. By pure coincidence I was half-listening to the radio last night and heard the statement that the Nessie idea is thought to have been begun by a circus owner (someone wellknown, he was named) who was performing in the area, and watched one of his elephants having a swim/wallow in the loch. Rolfe. Oops, sorry, I should read to the end of a thread before replying, I guess....
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. Last edited by Rolfe; 7th March 2006 at 06:09 AM.

7th March 2006, 06:47 AM	#27
walthrup48 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,079	This story's also covered in today's Daily Mail (page 15) and The Sun (pages 32 & 33).

7th March 2006, 07:05 AM	#28
Azrael 5 Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 5,042	Sounds highly plausible.The Sun's graphic is quite convincing.Thoughts?
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

7th March 2006, 07:07 AM	#29
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,856	Originally Posted by GreyPilgrim http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4651679.stm Beautiful! I may start an insurance company specialising in insurances against damage through paranormal means - what annual rate do you suppose I could charge for insuring against voodoo curses?
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,856

7th March 2006, 07:49 AM	#30
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Homebrew D&D Campaign Setting Posts: 5,007	Looks like eBay's pulled it.
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7th March 2006, 09:08 AM	#31
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Originally Posted by Azrael 5 Sounds highly plausible.The Sun's graphic is quite convincing.Thoughts? Well... there has been supposedly a monster in Loch Ness for many hundreds of years so a 1930s elephant wouldn't cut it. For me the most significant nail in Jumbo's coffin is the "Surgeon's Photo" - one of the most famous and the one which started off the modern hoo-ha. It was (as far as I'm aware) the first to depict the long neck that's now being portrayed as a trunk. Prior to that the monster was described as a huge lumbering thing, often on the land, not infrequently described as being like a horse (a reference to an each uisge, perhaps?). But that photo was - according to the deathbed confession of the photographer - a hoax of clay and a toy submarine. So where does that leave Nellie now?
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

7th March 2006, 09:15 AM	#32
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Originally Posted by richardm So where does that leave Nellie now? And more importantly, where does that leave the hoteliers now that the new season is approaching? In the news, that's where!
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

7th March 2006, 09:43 AM	#33
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,406	There's no reason why a bit of invention inspired by a bathing elephant couldn't have built on the earlier each uisge stories. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

7th March 2006, 10:07 AM	#34
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Originally Posted by Rolfe There's no reason why a bit of invention inspired by a bathing elephant couldn't have built on the earlier each uisge stories. That's true, but the claimed aim of the hoax was to produce something resembling a sea serpent, which one might expect to look rather like the picture. I don't think elephants need to be invoked but, well, who knows?
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

7th March 2006, 10:45 AM	#35
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Originally Posted by richardm Well... there has been supposedly a monster in Loch Ness for many hundreds of years so a 1930s elephant wouldn't cut it. Well ... supposedly. Are you thinking of St Columba? Loch Ness Monster^SW