Is more accessible knowledge going to dumg down the military?

rocketdodger · 8th December 2009, 01:23 AM

I went off on one of those youtube trances and watched a whole bunch of videos of firefights and the like in recent Iraq history.

I personally would never want to put myself in such a position. Or even in a position that could possibly lead to such a position.

Thinking about this, I wonder if the accessible knowledge about how horrible war really is will slowly result in less and less sane individuals joining the military.

I mean, the more we are able to share in a soldier's experience, the less anyone will want to fill a soldier's shoes.

Thoughts? Might this eventually be a problem for the military?

patchbunny · 8th December 2009, 06:46 PM

Terrible time and place for a typo.

I doubt it. There's always going to be a portion of society who are gung-ho and feel they are invincible, and aren't going to pay any attention to the videos that are out there, as "it can't happen to them".

Puppycow · 8th December 2009, 09:10 PM

If the idea of being in a war or a shootout wasn't inherently attractive to young men, I don't think we'd have so many first-person shooters or action movies. While some might see those videos and recoil, others might be attracted by them.

gnome · 8th December 2009, 10:06 PM

It doesn't just happen to us, though, it happens to the world, over time.

Broader knowledge of the horrors of war may make people of more and more nations reluctant to engage in it. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Survival instinct will trump squeamishness though--so we needn't worry about not finding enough troops to defend us if we're attacked.

Darth Rotor · 9th December 2009, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

It doesn't just happen to us, though, it happens to the world, over time.

Broader knowledge of the horrors of war may make people of more and more nations reluctant to engage in it. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Survival instinct will trump squeamishness though--so we needn't worry about not finding enough troops to defend us if we're attacked.

The Italians of WW II might disagree with you on that.

(Granted, I blame the officer corps, as never were so many good men so badly led ...)

DR

ponderingturtle · 9th December 2009, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

It doesn't just happen to us, though, it happens to the world, over time.

Broader knowledge of the horrors of war may make people of more and more nations reluctant to engage in it. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Survival instinct will trump squeamishness though--so we needn't worry about not finding enough troops to defend us if we're attacked.

The thing is that you are making the assumption of an all volunteer military. Also it is not generally the case that those making the decisions to go to war are the ones doing the fighting.

Rogue1stclass · 9th December 2009, 09:13 AM

I don't think it's been exactly a well kept secret that war sucks and people get horribly maimed and die.

The Red Badge of Courage was published in 1895. Since then, there have been any number of depictions of the horrors of combat, both real and fictional. And yet people sign up anyway.

It's just one of those things.

Ladewig · 13th December 2009, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by rocketdodger

I went off on one of those youtube trances and watched a whole bunch of videos of firefights and the like in recent Iraq history.

I personally would never want to put myself in such a position. Or even in a position that could possibly lead to such a position.

Thinking about this, I wonder if the accessible knowledge about how horrible war really is will slowly result in less and less sane individuals joining the military.

I mean, the more we are able to share in a soldier's experience, the less anyone will want to fill a soldier's shoes.

Thoughts? Might this eventually be a problem for the military?

You have made a mistake in your reasoning. You conclude that if you would never want to engage in an activity then anyone who does voluntarily engage in that activity is dumb.

People join the military for a variety of reasons despite knowing that they will face mortal danger.
- Some join because they want to defend this country against its enemies.
- Some join in order to help capture BinLaden.
- Some join because their relatives served and have convinced them that such service is invaluable as a preparation for life.
- Some join because they want to challenge themselves and see if they have what it takes to perform under the most stressful conditions possible.

Just because the value systems of these people is different from yours does not make them dumb.

Alt+F4 · 13th December 2009, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by rocketdodger

Thinking about this, I wonder if the accessible knowledge about how horrible war really is will slowly result in less and less sane individuals joining the military.

Doubtful since the vast majority of folks who join the military never see combat.

Newtons Bit · 13th December 2009, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

You have made a mistake in your reasoning. You conclude that if you would never want to engage in an activity then anyone who does voluntarily engage in that activity is dumb.

People join the military for a variety of reasons despite knowing that they will face mortal danger.
- Some join because they want to defend this country against its enemies.
- Some join in order to help capture BinLaden.
- Some join because their relatives served and have convinced them that such service is invaluable as a preparation for life.
- Some join because they want to challenge themselves and see if they have what it takes to perform under the most stressful conditions possible.

Just because the value systems of these people is different from yours does not make them dumb.

Don't forget that joining the military is one of the few ways "out" of bad lives that many impoverished have. The idea of a GI Bill waiting for them after they do their tour is motivation to many.

Ladewig · 13th December 2009, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Doubtful since the vast majority of folks who join the military never see combat.

They may never see combat in the conventional sense (people shooting at each other) but many non-combat specialists will be exposed to mortar fire, IEDs and the occasional suicide bomber.

Ladewig · 13th December 2009, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Don't forget that joining the military is one of the few ways "out" of bad lives that many impoverished have. The idea of a GI Bill waiting for them after they do their tour is motivation to many.

Yes. I did not mean for my list to be exhaustive.

Bikewer · 13th December 2009, 07:59 AM

NPR has been doing capsule biographies of KIA servicemen for some time. They usually include interviews with survivors who comment on why the individual joined.

Frequently, you hear comments like "He just wanted to make a difference". Or, "after 9/11, he just wanted to serve his country."

I don't think you can discount the often powerful emotional pull of the military in wartime.

There's a scene in the latest version the The War Of The Worlds where Tom Cruise's character tries to physically restrain his son from joining the fight against the invaders.
Pretty potent....

I watch those YouTube videos too, and what I find disturbing is the comments that get posted. Of course, we have to realize that many (I hope) are being posted by 13-year-old boys.....

Horatius · 13th December 2009, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Yes. I did not mean for my list to be exhaustive.

Indeed. You also forgot "There will always be people who like to break things and kill people".

bigred · 14th December 2009, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

They may never see combat in the conventional sense (people shooting at each other) but many non-combat specialists will be exposed to mortar fire, IEDs and the occasional suicide bomber.

Sorry, wrong again (well depending on what's meant by "many" that is). The vast majority of people in the military - even in this day and age - will be exposed to no such thing. I am amazed at how the stereotypes of the military and those who join (and why they join) persist. eg a LOT of people join because it's a steady job, they learn a trade, the fantastic benefits, etc etc. 6 weeks of vacation a year aint shabby either. It's not all flag-waving bravado, to say the least.

JoeyDonuts · 14th December 2009, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by patchbunny

There's always going to be a portion of society who are gung-ho and feel they are invincible, and aren't going to pay any attention to the videos that are out there, as "it can't happen to them".

NPR just did an interesting piece on a unit in Afghanistan. They interviewed them on how much their attitudes on combat had changed in the months they were on station.

The romantic notion of glorious video-game like combat disappears forever when you're pinned down for the first time, see your buddy you've known since MEPS vaporized by an IED, or take a 7.62 round yourself.

It's replaced with something akin to the world-weary yet astute cynicism you see in career firefighters and policemen. And even then, cops and firefighters don't normally deal with open combat on a daily basis like these guys do.

Ladewig · 14th December 2009, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by bigred

Sorry, wrong again (well depending on what's meant by "many" that is). The vast majority of people in the military - even in this day and age - will be exposed to no such thing. I am amazed at how the stereotypes of the military and those who join (and why they join) persist. eg a LOT of people join because it's a steady job, they learn a trade, the fantastic benefits, etc etc. 6 weeks of vacation a year aint shabby either. It's not all flag-waving bravado, to say the least.

I didn't say vast majority, simple majority, a large percentage, or even a measurable percentage. I simply said many. You and I can agree that depending on the definition of many, I am correct. Your accusation that I am wrong is misdirected.

As for my being "wrong again," I am unsure what you mean. I gave a short list of possible reasons why people join the military despite the chance of being in a life-threatening situation. I even stated that my list was not meant to be exhaustive. In what way was my list wrong.

.

8th December 2009, 01:23 AM	#1
rocketdodger Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hyperion Posts: 6,669	Is more accessible knowledge going to dumg down the military? I went off on one of those youtube trances and watched a whole bunch of videos of firefights and the like in recent Iraq history. I personally would never want to put myself in such a position. Or even in a position that could possibly lead to such a position. Thinking about this, I wonder if the accessible knowledge about how horrible war really is will slowly result in less and less sane individuals joining the military. I mean, the more we are able to share in a soldier's experience, the less anyone will want to fill a soldier's shoes. Thoughts? Might this eventually be a problem for the military?

8th December 2009, 06:46 PM	#2
patchbunny Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Location: Right about... here. Posts: 1,553	Terrible time and place for a typo. I doubt it. There's always going to be a portion of society who are gung-ho and feel they are invincible, and aren't going to pay any attention to the videos that are out there, as "it can't happen to them".
	__________________ "So, they laugh at my boner, will they? I'll show them! I'll show them how many boners the Joker can make!" -- The Joker, Batman #66

8th December 2009, 09:10 PM	#3
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,786	If the idea of being in a war or a shootout wasn't inherently attractive to young men, I don't think we'd have so many first-person shooters or action movies. While some might see those videos and recoil, others might be attracted by them.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

8th December 2009, 10:06 PM	#4
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,872	It doesn't just happen to us, though, it happens to the world, over time. Broader knowledge of the horrors of war may make people of more and more nations reluctant to engage in it. I don't see that as a bad thing. Survival instinct will trump squeamishness though--so we needn't worry about not finding enough troops to defend us if we're attacked.
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,872	__________________

9th December 2009, 07:23 AM	#5
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,265	Originally Posted by gnome It doesn't just happen to us, though, it happens to the world, over time. Broader knowledge of the horrors of war may make people of more and more nations reluctant to engage in it. I don't see that as a bad thing. Survival instinct will trump squeamishness though--so we needn't worry about not finding enough troops to defend us if we're attacked. The Italians of WW II might disagree with you on that. (Granted, I blame the officer corps, as never were so many good men so badly led ...) DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

9th December 2009, 08:11 AM	#6
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,432	Originally Posted by gnome It doesn't just happen to us, though, it happens to the world, over time. Broader knowledge of the horrors of war may make people of more and more nations reluctant to engage in it. I don't see that as a bad thing. Survival instinct will trump squeamishness though--so we needn't worry about not finding enough troops to defend us if we're attacked. The thing is that you are making the assumption of an all volunteer military. Also it is not generally the case that those making the decisions to go to war are the ones doing the fighting.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

9th December 2009, 09:13 AM	#7
Rogue1stclass Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 842	I don't think it's been exactly a well kept secret that war sucks and people get horribly maimed and die. The Red Badge of Courage was published in 1895. Since then, there have been any number of depictions of the horrors of combat, both real and fictional. And yet people sign up anyway. It's just one of those things.
Rogue1stclass Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 842

13th December 2009, 07:26 AM	#8
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by rocketdodger I went off on one of those youtube trances and watched a whole bunch of videos of firefights and the like in recent Iraq history. I personally would never want to put myself in such a position. Or even in a position that could possibly lead to such a position. Thinking about this, I wonder if the accessible knowledge about how horrible war really is will slowly result in less and less sane individuals joining the military. I mean, the more we are able to share in a soldier's experience, the less anyone will want to fill a soldier's shoes. Thoughts? Might this eventually be a problem for the military? You have made a mistake in your reasoning. You conclude that if you would never want to engage in an activity then anyone who does voluntarily engage in that activity is dumb. People join the military for a variety of reasons despite knowing that they will face mortal danger. - Some join because they want to defend this country against its enemies. - Some join in order to help capture BinLaden. - Some join because their relatives served and have convinced them that such service is invaluable as a preparation for life. - Some join because they want to challenge themselves and see if they have what it takes to perform under the most stressful conditions possible. Just because the value systems of these people is different from yours does not make them dumb.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

13th December 2009, 07:29 AM	#9
Alt+F4 diabolical globalist Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Department of Abandoned Places Posts: 9,780	Originally Posted by rocketdodger Thinking about this, I wonder if the accessible knowledge about how horrible war really is will slowly result in less and less sane individuals joining the military. Doubtful since the vast majority of folks who join the military never see combat.
	__________________ "My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky

13th December 2009, 07:36 AM	#10
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,899	Originally Posted by Ladewig You have made a mistake in your reasoning. You conclude that if you would never want to engage in an activity then anyone who does voluntarily engage in that activity is dumb. People join the military for a variety of reasons despite knowing that they will face mortal danger. - Some join because they want to defend this country against its enemies. - Some join in order to help capture BinLaden. - Some join because their relatives served and have convinced them that such service is invaluable as a preparation for life. - Some join because they want to challenge themselves and see if they have what it takes to perform under the most stressful conditions possible. Just because the value systems of these people is different from yours does not make them dumb. Don't forget that joining the military is one of the few ways "out" of bad lives that many impoverished have. The idea of a GI Bill waiting for them after they do their tour is motivation to many.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,899	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

13th December 2009, 07:50 AM	#11
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by Alt+F4 Doubtful since the vast majority of folks who join the military never see combat. They may never see combat in the conventional sense (people shooting at each other) but many non-combat specialists will be exposed to mortar fire, IEDs and the occasional suicide bomber.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

13th December 2009, 07:51 AM	#12
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Don't forget that joining the military is one of the few ways "out" of bad lives that many impoverished have. The idea of a GI Bill waiting for them after they do their tour is motivation to many. Yes. I did not mean for my list to be exhaustive.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

13th December 2009, 07:59 AM	#13
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,532	NPR has been doing capsule biographies of KIA servicemen for some time. They usually include interviews with survivors who comment on why the individual joined. Frequently, you hear comments like "He just wanted to make a difference". Or, "after 9/11, he just wanted to serve his country." I don't think you can discount the often powerful emotional pull of the military in wartime. There's a scene in the latest version the The War Of The Worlds where Tom Cruise's character tries to physically restrain his son from joining the fight against the invaders. Pretty potent.... I watch those YouTube videos too, and what I find disturbing is the comments that get posted. Of course, we have to realize that many (I hope) are being posted by 13-year-old boys.....

13th December 2009, 02:12 PM	#14
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by Ladewig Yes. I did not mean for my list to be exhaustive. Indeed. You also forgot "There will always be people who like to break things and kill people".
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

14th December 2009, 09:06 PM	#15
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by Ladewig They may never see combat in the conventional sense (people shooting at each other) but many non-combat specialists will be exposed to mortar fire, IEDs and the occasional suicide bomber. Sorry, wrong again (well depending on what's meant by "many" that is). The vast majority of people in the military - even in this day and age - will be exposed to no such thing. I am amazed at how the stereotypes of the military and those who join (and why they join) persist. eg a LOT of people join because it's a steady job, they learn a trade, the fantastic benefits, etc etc. 6 weeks of vacation a year aint shabby either. It's not all flag-waving bravado, to say the least.

14th December 2009, 09:15 PM	#16
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	Originally Posted by patchbunny There's always going to be a portion of society who are gung-ho and feel they are invincible, and aren't going to pay any attention to the videos that are out there, as "it can't happen to them". NPR just did an interesting piece on a unit in Afghanistan. They interviewed them on how much their attitudes on combat had changed in the months they were on station. The romantic notion of glorious video-game like combat disappears forever when you're pinned down for the first time, see your buddy you've known since MEPS vaporized by an IED, or take a 7.62 round yourself. It's replaced with something akin to the world-weary yet astute cynicism you see in career firefighters and policemen. And even then, cops and firefighters don't normally deal with open combat on a daily basis like these guys do.
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14th December 2009, 09:32 PM	#17
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by bigred Sorry, wrong again (well depending on what's meant by "many" that is). The vast majority of people in the military - even in this day and age - will be exposed to no such thing. I am amazed at how the stereotypes of the military and those who join (and why they join) persist. eg a LOT of people join because it's a steady job, they learn a trade, the fantastic benefits, etc etc. 6 weeks of vacation a year aint shabby either. It's not all flag-waving bravado, to say the least. I didn't say vast majority, simple majority, a large percentage, or even a measurable percentage. I simply said many. You and I can agree that depending on the definition of many, I am correct. Your accusation that I am wrong is misdirected. As for my being "wrong again," I am unsure what you mean. I gave a short list of possible reasons why people join the military despite the chance of being in a life-threatening situation. I even stated that my list was not meant to be exhaustive. In what way was my list wrong. .
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.