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Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 04:32 AM

Hey, isn't that the same thing as saying dead-end?

And so what about death, the "greatest" of unknowns? Don't you people know you're doing it all for nothing, because when you die there's nothing to be realized? Does that make any sense? Seems like a big waste to me.

And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? You know, to learn our lessons? Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits?

Indeed, death is the greatest illusion of all, if in fact it were merely "physical" ...

And to think, God has one up on all of us!

Q-Source · 5th January 2004, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
[b]Hey, isn't that the same thing as saying dead-end?

No

Quote:

And so what about death, the "greatest" of unknowns? Don't you people know you're doing it all for nothing, because when you die there's nothing to be realized?

It is your own interpretation. I don't think that I am "doing it all for nothing". The rewards for my actions are here and now, not in dead or in life after death. Those rewards keep me doing things in order to get more satisfaction.

Quote:

Does that make any sense?

Yes

Quote:

Seems like a big waste to me.

I can understand why.

Quote:

And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? You know, to learn our lessons? Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits?

There are benefits here and now, that's why people who know that death is inevitable still enjoy doing things and enjoy searching for the truth.

sparklecat · 5th January 2004, 05:01 AM

Just for the sake of argument...

What's the point of talking about us being here as a waste, unless you presuppose some sort of ultimate purpose for us? Life may seem a waste to us, but I doubt the universe cares.

El Greco · 5th January 2004, 05:04 AM

Here we go again

UndercoverElephant · 5th January 2004, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Q-Source

Those rewards keep me doing things in order to get more satisfaction.

More satisfaction?

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 5th January 2004, 05:07 AM

Iacchus, why don't you propose the most grand and glorious after-death scenario that you can possibly imagine. Then tell us what the point of it is.

~~ Paul

Q-Source · 5th January 2004, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JustGeoff

More satisfaction?

Yes, more. Is that a bad thing or what?

UndercoverElephant · 5th January 2004, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Q-Source

Yes, more. Is that a bad thing or what?

It is not a bad thing. But satisfaction is only ever temporary.

Keziah Mason · 5th January 2004, 05:48 AM

I'd like to see some evidence instead of all those "what-if"s and other wishful thinking which completely fails to impress.

Suezoled · 5th January 2004, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Hey, isn't that the same thing as saying dead-end?

And so what about death, the "greatest" of unknowns? Don't you people know you're doing it all for nothing, because when you die there's nothing to be realized? Does that make any sense? Seems like a big waste to me.
(snipped)

Indeed, death is the greatest illusion of all, if in fact it were merely "physical" ...

And to think, God has one up on all of us!

Iacchus once again is:
1.) assuming this life is a waste
2.) There's better stuff on the other side of the septic tank
3.) is working on faith there's life after death and using it as "fact"
4.) assuming there is a god

Actually, the greatest of unknowns, I think, (and Kitten would agree with me), is how much could we get for selling El Greco into slavery?

Some Friggin Guy · 5th January 2004, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Suezoled

Iacchus once again is:
1.) assuming this life is a waste
2.) There's better stuff on the other side of the septic tank
3.) is working on faith there's life after death and using it as "fact"
4.) assuming there is a god

Actually, the greatest of unknowns, I think, (and Kitten would agree with me), is how much could we get for selling El Greco into slavery?

If I remeber my bible correctly, and adjusting for about 2500 years of inflation (using about a middle of the road age argument, since they didn't really trade slaves in Eden.)

I'd say you could get roughly 1400 oxen, 750 camels or a trio 15 year old virgins.

Now that's just a rough estimate.

Ipecac · 5th January 2004, 07:36 AM

This is the kind of argument believers drag out convinced that it will stop us poor, unthinking non-believers in our tracks. A tear will roll down our face, we'll realize the futility of a life without Jebus and we'll be at church the very next Sunday.

Like all creatures, human beings have a survival instinct. We want to survive and we want to be comfortable doing so. Our work in life is geared towards this end. What other choice do we have, really? Just give up and die? We wouldn't have survived as a species without the drive to survive, whatever our eventual individual end.

Upchurch · 5th January 2004, 07:38 AM

To continue Q's line-by-line answering:

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school?

I don't. How do you know our being here isn't purely for the entertainment value to space aliens? There are plenty of other hypothetical possibilities we could name that are just as likely.

Quote:

You know, to learn our lessons?

Maybe, but the lesson goals are not clearly defined if similar learning experiences can lead two people to learning two different things. One person may witness the birth of a child and conclude its a miracle from God, while another person concludes that it is procreation of the species and a common, simple occurance.

(note: "simple" does not mean "easy")

Quote:

Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate?

Which is, of course, assuming that our being here is meant to be education and not meant for some other purpose, if any purpose at all.

Quote:

Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits?

No, but the situation is not necessarily analogous to our very existance. At least, you have not shown it to be.

Quote:

Indeed, death is the greatest illusion of all, if in fact it were merely "physical" ...

Another "if". If wishes were horses, beggers would ride.

Quote:

And to think, God has one up on all of us!

Where'd God come into it?

Upchurch · 5th January 2004, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits?

I've thought a bit more on this question and I realized that I never really answered it.

The reason humanity as a whole endevors to learn new things and to improve ourselves in general is for the benefit of our children. The survival and betterment of our species is any parent's ultimate goal.

There is no necessity in a "vocation" in the "next life" for us to learn in this one.

Nyarlathotep · 5th January 2004, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Hey, isn't that the same thing as saying dead-end?

Maybe, but if so, so what. If there is no life after death (and I have no reason to suppose that there is) it is a fairly apt analogy.

Quote:

And so what about death, the "greatest" of unknowns? Don't you people know you're doing it all for nothing, because when you die there's nothing to be realized? Does that make any sense? Seems like a big waste to me.

No it's not a waste. I don't have to believe in a next life in order to try to achieve whatever measure of happiness I can in the here and now. I don't feel that some higher purpose or an afterlife is necessary in order to enjoy my time on this Earth. In fact, I look at it this way: My time on this Earth is the only time that I KNOW that I have, spending any of it pursuing an afterlife that seems unlikely to me to even exist does not contribute to making that limited time better for myself or my children. Therefore it is a waste of a resource (time) that I can never get back.

Quote:

And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? You know, to learn our lessons? Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits?

Indeed, death is the greatest illusion of all, if in fact it were merely "physical" ...

And to think, God has one up on all of us!

I don't know that it isn't a lot like school. I don't know that it is like school either. I see no reason to think that it is, though, so I see no reason to treat it as such. You're whole question assumes the existence of a God, and that's a BIG assumption

scribble · 5th January 2004, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? You know, to learn our lessons? Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits?

Man, if God really wanted me to know the ins and outs of Unix programming: a) He could have found a better way than making me work for these asshats... b) I'm going to be sorely disappointed with the network in Heaven. They should at least be one step ahead of us.

But hey, it's good to know God uses Unix.

jj · 5th January 2004, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Hey, isn't that the same thing as saying dead-end?

Do you really think your attempts at clever word play are going to convince anyone?

And so what about death, the "greatest" of unknowns?

Proof by assertion. Death is death. You stop. There's nothing more to know. The chemical processes abend and you're gone. No poof, nothing more, you just stop existing.

Don't you people know you're doing it all for nothing, because when you die there's nothing to be realized?

Your claim here is unsupported, and is based on suborned induction, as well as on several fallacies included inyour "because" clause. Please remove the fallacies, use induction properly, and then attempt to discuss this in a rational manner.

Does that make any sense? Seems like a big waste to me.

The big sky-daddy sends honest, ethical, life-conserving souls to aeternal torture because they didn't believe in him/her/it. Seems like a big waste to me.

Aside from pointing out your fallacious reasoning via using it on your own superstitions, you're projecting your own (biased by your superstitious background) values on everyone else.

You don't get to do that unless Ashcroft and Cheyney manage to achieve their Krystalnacht against unbelievers in this country, you know, the one that Fox News has been calling for?

And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? You know, to learn our lessons?

How do you know it is? Occams razor slices your ideas right out, here, unless you can show affirmative evidence, which you haven't.

Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education,

For our REAL education, so we can live comfortably and constructively during our limited lifetime. Life, after all, is much more valuable to the atheist who does not believe in the myth of life after death, because THIS LIFE IS ALL THERE IS.

when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate?

Illicit reasoning.

Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits?

Please show some basis for your anthropmorphic assumptions. Until you can, we must needs assume that we're not in "school" during life, we're just a part of nature, and when we're dead, we're dead. Obviously there are benefits IN LIFE for education in ethics, morals, technology, etc. That's all there is, and that's what education is good for, FOR MAKING THIS SHORT LIFE WORTH SOMETHING MORE THAN A HELP TO THE ENTROPY DEATH OF THE UNIVERSE. There is no other meaning. Give it up.

Indeed, death is the greatest illusion of all, if in fact it were merely "physical" ...

Death is purely physical. There is no illusion. When you die, you stop working, and you stop thinking, being concious, etc. Until you can show some hard, testable, verifiable evidence otherwise, that's all anyone at all is bound to reasonably accept.

And to think, God has one up on all of us!

How? She must not exist, she's never done anything that I can verify, test, or falsify.

Do you have anything to say, really, or are you just spouting your personal delusions at us again?

jj · 5th January 2004, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JustGeoff

More satisfaction?

Well, yes. It's available now on LP, CD, and undoubtedly via pirated MP3 as well.

I wonder how many royalties it still pulls in?

Personally Iach* here reminds me more of "19th Nervious Breakdown" than "Satisfaction", though.

jj · 5th January 2004, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Suezoled

Iacchus once again is:
1.) assuming this life is a waste

Tragic, since that's all there is. I hope he doens't succumb to depression!

2.) There's better stuff on the other side of the septic tank

No, no, no! The grass is always greener over the septic tank!

3.) is working on faith there's life after death and using it as "fact"

S/he/it's been circular since day one.

4.) assuming there is a god

You mean "blatantly asserting that as absolute, incontrovertable fact". It goes beyond his/her/its personal assumptions, I think.

Actually, the greatest of unknowns, I think, (and Kitten would agree with me), is how much could we get for selling El Greco into slavery?

Ok, ok, first Geoff got me to bite my tongue, and now you. It's you guys fault it's so sore! It's all your fault!

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Q-Source

It is your own interpretation. I don't think that I am "doing it all for nothing". The rewards for my actions are here and now, not in dead or in life after death. Those rewards keep me doing things in order to get more satisfaction.

There are benefits here and now, that's why people who know that death is inevitable still enjoy doing things and enjoy searching for the truth.

Actually I think most people feel this way, provided they have something useful to do. Which, is kind of why I'm asking it. You know, how can it begin so abruptly and then end so abruptly? It kind of leads you to ask if there weren't something more to it than this? In fact I think a lot of people have considered this at one time or another.

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sparklecat
Just for the sake of argument...

What's the point of talking about us being here as a waste, unless you presuppose some sort of ultimate purpose for us? Life may seem a waste to us, but I doubt the universe cares.

Do human beings human care? Then so does the universe. Unless of course you're willing to say that human beings aren't a part of it.

Upchurch · 5th January 2004, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Unless of course you're willing to say that human beings aren't a part of it.

I'm willing to say that human beings are a very small, very unimportant portion of the universe. Further, I'd say that the vast majority of the universe probably doesn't care about us humans, assuming that rest of it even has the capacity to care in the first place.

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Iacchus, why don't you propose the most grand and glorious after-death scenario that you can possibly imagine. Then tell us what the point of it is.

~~ Paul

But I would just be imagining things now wouldn't I? Besides, that would be telling.

Soapy Sam · 5th January 2004, 03:47 PM

Gods, I hope there's nothing after death. Can you imagine another ten gazillion boring Sunday afternoons? And that's just for starters.

I did'nt exist for the first 15 billion years of this particular quantum flutter and I won't exist for the rest of it. The 48 I have existed for have been largely fun, but frankly, various bits already hurt in the mornings, while others have dropped clean off. I have reservations about the next couple of decades: I would hate to think there's no "off" switch.

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keziah Mason
I'd like to see some evidence instead of all those "what-if"s and other wishful thinking which completely fails to impress.

It's just your basic philosophical question, designed to get people to think, ya think?

T'ai Chi · 5th January 2004, 03:59 PM

Someone said:
(bold mine)

"Proof by assertion. ..., nothing more, ..."

Proof by assertion.

"Life, after all, is much more valuable to the atheist who does not believe in the myth of life after death, because THIS LIFE IS ALL THERE IS."

Proof by assertion.

Do you have any scientific studies to back up your claim that "life is much more valuable to the atheist" nad "this life is all there is"? If they don't know, neither do you.

Don't delay- please post your peer-reviewed scientific studies in your very next reply, that is, if it wasn't just your opinion.

Dancing David · 5th January 2004, 04:04 PM

It is a thought that has been trod down many a time, nothing new to it. Why worry about life after death, we are alive, when we are dead we will be dead.

If it is a phase transition then there won't be the transmission of information. Does water vapor remember ice?

Being is.

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Upchurch
I'm willing to say that human beings are a very small, very unimportant portion of the universe. Further, I'd say that the vast majority of the universe probably doesn't care about us humans, assuming that rest of it even has the capacity to care in the first place.

Then why should we care about what can only be construed as an infinitesimal little glitch that occurs in universal terms (i.e., time and space), between our birth and our death? Why take yourself so seriously then?

If the universe doesn't care, then why are we here "reasoning" about it?

Nyarlathotep · 5th January 2004, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Then why should we care about what can only be construed as an infinitesimal little glitch that occurs in universal terms (i.e., time and space), between our birth and our death? Why take yourself so seriously then?

If the universe doesn't care, then why are we here "reasoning" about it?

Why do we need to be of massive import to the entire universe in order to be important to ourselves and each other? Why does that have to be true to be curious about things?

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Suezoled

Iacchus once again is:
1.) assuming this life is a waste
2.) There's better stuff on the other side of the septic tank
3.) is working on faith there's life after death and using it as "fact"
4.) assuming there is a god

No, I'm just questioning why I'm here?

Quote:

Actually, the greatest of unknowns, I think, (and Kitten would agree with me), is how much could we get for selling El Greco into slavery?

T'ai Chi · 5th January 2004, 04:12 PM

Iacchus,

I love the types of questions that you raised in your opening post.

I see death equally as necessary as life, for without life, there is no death, and vice-versa. Therefore, I see death as just another (albeit a very important) transformation, a continuing of the process that is experience.

I just have to say that it is important as anything in our "waking" life (just like before birth), but that I don't know what happens with any certainty. I'm looking forward to one (a natural one, after about 85 or so years).

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ipecac
This is the kind of argument believers drag out convinced that it will stop us poor, unthinking non-believers in our tracks. A tear will roll down our face, we'll realize the futility of a life without Jebus and we'll be at church the very next Sunday.

Like all creatures, human beings have a survival instinct. We want to survive and we want to be comfortable doing so. Our work in life is geared towards this end. What other choice do we have, really? Just give up and die? We wouldn't have survived as a species without the drive to survive, whatever our eventual individual end.

Ever stop to think that the only thing that makes sense out of anything is consciousness? Perhaps our brains and bodies are merely receptacles, linked to this thing called Universal Consciousness?

Think about it. How else could we ever possibly agree that 1 + 1 = 2? If in fact there weren't somehing inherently universal -- i.e., through consciousness -- about it?

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Iacchus,

I love the types of questions that you raised in your opening post.

I see death equally as necessary as life, for without life, there is no death, and vice-versa. Therefore, I see death as just another (albeit a very important) transformation, a continuing of the process that is experience.

I just have to say that it is important as anything in our "waking" life (just like before birth), but that I don't know what happens with any certainty. I'm looking forward to one (a natural one, after about 85 or so years).

Yes, but what do grubs now -- except perhaps to prepare for when the time comes -- about being a butterfly?

neutrino_cannon · 5th January 2004, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Yes, but do grubs now -- except perhaps to prepare for when the time comes -- about being a butterfly?

The knowlege presently availible of the nervous system of a larval insect would compeel me to state that they really don't know about anything in advance to the sort of extent that we do.

That and the analogy is irrelevant.

We know about our deaths well in advance, a grup (grubs turn into flies BTW) has no conception, in all likliness, of it's impending transformation. Furthermore, metamorphosis in necessarily a change that is observable to other grubs, and if they were but bright enough to know what was going on to their comrade they would know the process is of transitory nature, with life thereafter.

In death we have no such ability. When I look at a dying creature I just injected piping-hot lead into, I can be quite sure that it is not turning into a bloody moth. Further reassurance of this position comes when I rip out the innards, and see that all processes are ceased, save bleeding all over me.

And so what if there is an afterlife. There's no way to test anything about it, or even be sure that it exists. We might as well worship the invisable pink unicorn, being that the evidence for either entity is the same. Focus on worldly problems I say. (see sigline)

And if I ever find this "god" guy, then he had better hope that his omnipotence is still working, cause if it isn't he's gonna go back to heavan with an ear in his mouth for all the sh*t he's pulled down here.

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Upchurch
I've thought a bit more on this question and I realized that I never really answered it.

The reason humanity as a whole endevors to learn new things and to improve ourselves in general is for the benefit of our children. The survival and betterment of our species is any parent's ultimate goal.

There is no necessity in a "vocation" in the "next life" for us to learn in this one.

You're getting closer to the analogy I see. And let's just assume for a moment that there were a Creator whom, some of us may address as Father. Don't you think He'd have a similar concern about the welfare of His children as well?

neutrino_cannon · 5th January 2004, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
You're getting closer to the analogy I see. And let's just assume for a moment that there were a Creator whom, some of us may address as Father. Don't you think He'd have a similar concern about the welfare of His children as well?

Clearly, only some of us are children if what you say is true.

Otherwise he's a very abusive father.

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

No it's not a waste. I don't have to believe in a next life in order to try to achieve whatever measure of happiness I can in the here and now. I don't feel that some higher purpose or an afterlife is necessary in order to enjoy my time on this Earth. In fact, I look at it this way: My time on this Earth is the only time that I KNOW that I have, spending any of it pursuing an afterlife that seems unlikely to me to even exist does not contribute to making that limited time better for myself or my children. Therefore it is a waste of a resource (time) that I can never get back.

Then you agree, it does seem like a big waste (of time) to have it end.

Quote:

I don't know that it isn't a lot like school. I don't know that it is like school either. I see no reason to think that it is, though, so I see no reason to treat it as such. You're whole question assumes the existence of a God, and that's a BIG assumption

And yet there's nothing about the experience of living that doesn't teach us anything, right?

neutrino_cannon · 5th January 2004, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Then you agree, it does seem like a big waste (of time) to have it end.

And yet there's nothing about the experience of living that doesn't teach us anything, right?

So what if it ends, it isn't wasted. All things are transitory, and eternal life would be unbearable after a point, see the imortal's paradox.

It may not be perfect as it is now, but there's no reason to wish it is different. It's of equal (non)use to posit on all the unverifyable and ulikely alternate possibilities.

Iacchus · 5th January 2004, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scribble

Man, if God really wanted me to know the ins and outs of Unix programming: a) He could have found a better way than making me work for these asshats... b) I'm going to be sorely disappointed with the network in Heaven. They should at least be one step ahead of us.

But hey, it's good to know God uses Unix.

Something tells me you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Ralph · 5th January 2004, 06:00 PM

Stop worrying about the meaning of life. You'll enjoy it more.

Non existence---then x # years of life---then non-existence again.
I'd like more than the allotted 70-80 years ........but it's better than nothing.

I see people (quite a few of them on the Rap.Ready board in fact)
who are so focused on some real or imagined future event--they are missing out on what life has to offer.

Make the most of whatever time you have & stop worrying about it's "meaning"...................

5th January 2004, 04:32 AM	#1
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Dead is the End? Hey, isn't that the same thing as saying dead-end? And so what about death, the "greatest" of unknowns? Don't you people know you're doing it all for nothing, because when you die there's nothing to be realized? Does that make any sense? Seems like a big waste to me. And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? You know, to learn our lessons? Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits? Indeed, death is the greatest illusion of all, if in fact it were merely "physical" ... And to think, God has one up on all of us!

5th January 2004, 04:57 AM	#2
Q-Source Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,268	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus [b]Hey, isn't that the same thing as saying dead-end? No Quote: And so what about death, the "greatest" of unknowns? Don't you people know you're doing it all for nothing, because when you die there's nothing to be realized? It is your own interpretation. I don't think that I am "doing it all for nothing". The rewards for my actions are here and now, not in dead or in life after death. Those rewards keep me doing things in order to get more satisfaction. Quote: Does that make any sense? Yes Quote: Seems like a big waste to me. I can understand why. Quote: And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? You know, to learn our lessons? Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits? There are benefits here and now, that's why people who know that death is inevitable still enjoy doing things and enjoy searching for the truth.
Q-Source Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,268

5th January 2004, 05:04 AM	#4
El Greco Summer worshipper Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Παρά θιν'αλός Posts: 14,425	Here we go again
	__________________ "Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht "Let it go and come to bed already, El Greco" - MoeFaux

5th January 2004, 05:07 AM	#5
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 9,060	Quote: Originally posted by Q-Source Those rewards keep me doing things in order to get more satisfaction. More satisfaction?
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about."

5th January 2004, 05:07 AM	#6
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,631	Iacchus, why don't you propose the most grand and glorious after-death scenario that you can possibly imagine. Then tell us what the point of it is. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

5th January 2004, 05:01 AM	#3
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Just for the sake of argument... What's the point of talking about us being here as a waste, unless you presuppose some sort of ultimate purpose for us? Life may seem a waste to us, but I doubt the universe cares.

5th January 2004, 05:11 AM	#7
Q-Source Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,268	Quote: Originally posted by JustGeoff More satisfaction? Yes, more. Is that a bad thing or what?
Q-Source Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,268

5th January 2004, 05:29 AM	#8
UndercoverElephant Pachyderm of a Thousand Faces Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 9,060	Quote: Originally posted by Q-Source Yes, more. Is that a bad thing or what? It is not a bad thing. But satisfaction is only ever temporary.
	__________________ "I am real!" said Alice, and began to cry. "You won't make yourself a bit realler by crying," Tweedledee remarked: "there's nothing to cry about."

5th January 2004, 05:48 AM	#9
Keziah Mason Thinker Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 190	I'd like to see some evidence instead of all those "what-if"s and other wishful thinking which completely fails to impress.
Keziah Mason Thinker Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 190

5th January 2004, 06:17 AM	#10
Suezoled Mentally Interesting Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 4,588	Re: Dead is the End? Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Hey, isn't that the same thing as saying dead-end? And so what about death, the "greatest" of unknowns? Don't you people know you're doing it all for nothing, because when you die there's nothing to be realized? Does that make any sense? Seems like a big waste to me. (snipped) Indeed, death is the greatest illusion of all, if in fact it were merely "physical" ... And to think, God has one up on all of us! Iacchus once again is: 1.) assuming this life is a waste 2.) There's better stuff on the other side of the septic tank 3.) is working on faith there's life after death and using it as "fact" 4.) assuming there is a god Actually, the greatest of unknowns, I think, (and Kitten would agree with me), is how much could we get for selling El Greco into slavery?
	__________________ "We must always fear the wicked. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men." -priest guy from Boondock Saints "And we'll no longer memorize or rhyme/Too far along in our crime/ Stepping over what now towers to the sky/ With no connection" -Shins

5th January 2004, 06:26 AM	#11
Some Friggin Guy Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 860	Re: Re: Dead is the End? Quote: Originally posted by Suezoled Iacchus once again is: 1.) assuming this life is a waste 2.) There's better stuff on the other side of the septic tank 3.) is working on faith there's life after death and using it as "fact" 4.) assuming there is a god Actually, the greatest of unknowns, I think, (and Kitten would agree with me), is how much could we get for selling El Greco into slavery? If I remeber my bible correctly, and adjusting for about 2500 years of inflation (using about a middle of the road age argument, since they didn't really trade slaves in Eden.) I'd say you could get roughly 1400 oxen, 750 camels or a trio 15 year old virgins. Now that's just a rough estimate.
Some Friggin Guy Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 860	__________________ You think, therefore I am. "There is no hope for humanity. Reason is dead and we dance on the corpse. Tra la la la la! " - c4ts "What is the meaning of life? Monkey!" - c4ts

5th January 2004, 07:36 AM	#12
Ipecac Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,852	This is the kind of argument believers drag out convinced that it will stop us poor, unthinking non-believers in our tracks. A tear will roll down our face, we'll realize the futility of a life without Jebus and we'll be at church the very next Sunday. Like all creatures, human beings have a survival instinct. We want to survive and we want to be comfortable doing so. Our work in life is geared towards this end. What other choice do we have, really? Just give up and die? We wouldn't have survived as a species without the drive to survive, whatever our eventual individual end.
Ipecac Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,852

5th January 2004, 07:38 AM	#13
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Re: Dead is the End? To continue Q's line-by-line answering: Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? I don't. How do you know our being here isn't purely for the entertainment value to space aliens? There are plenty of other hypothetical possibilities we could name that are just as likely. Quote: You know, to learn our lessons? Maybe, but the lesson goals are not clearly defined if similar learning experiences can lead two people to learning two different things. One person may witness the birth of a child and conclude its a miracle from God, while another person concludes that it is procreation of the species and a common, simple occurance. (note: "simple" does not mean "easy") Quote: Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Which is, of course, assuming that our being here is meant to be education and not meant for some other purpose, if any purpose at all. Quote: Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits? No, but the situation is not necessarily analogous to our very existance. At least, you have not shown it to be. Quote: Indeed, death is the greatest illusion of all, if in fact it were merely "physical" ... Another "if". If wishes were horses, beggers would ride. Quote: And to think, God has one up on all of us! Where'd God come into it?

5th January 2004, 09:26 AM	#14
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Re: Dead is the End? Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits? I've thought a bit more on this question and I realized that I never really answered it. The reason humanity as a whole endevors to learn new things and to improve ourselves in general is for the benefit of our children. The survival and betterment of our species is any parent's ultimate goal. There is no necessity in a "vocation" in the "next life" for us to learn in this one.

5th January 2004, 10:25 AM	#15
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Re: Dead is the End? Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Hey, isn't that the same thing as saying dead-end? Maybe, but if so, so what. If there is no life after death (and I have no reason to suppose that there is) it is a fairly apt analogy. Quote: And so what about death, the "greatest" of unknowns? Don't you people know you're doing it all for nothing, because when you die there's nothing to be realized? Does that make any sense? Seems like a big waste to me. No it's not a waste. I don't have to believe in a next life in order to try to achieve whatever measure of happiness I can in the here and now. I don't feel that some higher purpose or an afterlife is necessary in order to enjoy my time on this Earth. In fact, I look at it this way: My time on this Earth is the only time that I KNOW that I have, spending any of it pursuing an afterlife that seems unlikely to me to even exist does not contribute to making that limited time better for myself or my children. Therefore it is a waste of a resource (time) that I can never get back. Quote: And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? You know, to learn our lessons? Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits? Indeed, death is the greatest illusion of all, if in fact it were merely "physical" ... And to think, God has one up on all of us! I don't know that it isn't a lot like school. I don't know that it is like school either. I see no reason to think that it is, though, so I see no reason to treat it as such. You're whole question assumes the existence of a God, and that's a BIG assumption
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

5th January 2004, 11:34 AM	#16
scribble Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,696	Re: Dead is the End? Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? You know, to learn our lessons? Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits? Man, if God really wanted me to know the ins and outs of Unix programming: a) He could have found a better way than making me work for these asshats... b) I'm going to be sorely disappointed with the network in Heaven. They should at least be one step ahead of us. But hey, it's good to know God uses Unix.
scribble Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,696	__________________ "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson "I was thinking about painting my house, but I was worried about how well the latex paint we bought would bond to the existing siding. So I got on the Interweb and searched for latex bondage."

5th January 2004, 12:38 PM	#17
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,715	Re: Dead is the End? Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Hey, isn't that the same thing as saying dead-end? Do you really think your attempts at clever word play are going to convince anyone? And so what about death, the "greatest" of unknowns? Proof by assertion. Death is death. You stop. There's nothing more to know. The chemical processes abend and you're gone. No poof, nothing more, you just stop existing. Don't you people know you're doing it all for nothing, because when you die there's nothing to be realized? Your claim here is unsupported, and is based on suborned induction, as well as on several fallacies included inyour "because" clause. Please remove the fallacies, use induction properly, and then attempt to discuss this in a rational manner. Does that make any sense? Seems like a big waste to me. The big sky-daddy sends honest, ethical, life-conserving souls to aeternal torture because they didn't believe in him/her/it. Seems like a big waste to me. Aside from pointing out your fallacious reasoning via using it on your own superstitions, you're projecting your own (biased by your superstitious background) values on everyone else. You don't get to do that unless Ashcroft and Cheyney manage to achieve their Krystalnacht against unbelievers in this country, you know, the one that Fox News has been calling for? And how do you know our being here isn't a lot like going to school? You know, to learn our lessons? How do you know it is? Occams razor slices your ideas right out, here, unless you can show affirmative evidence, which you haven't. Or esle why the huge expenditure in our education, For our REAL education, so we can live comfortably and constructively during our limited lifetime. Life, after all, is much more valuable to the atheist who does not believe in the myth of life after death, because THIS LIFE IS ALL THERE IS. when there's no vocation to enter after we graduate? Illicit reasoning. Would you send your kids to school if you knew there were no benefits? Please show some basis for your anthropmorphic assumptions. Until you can, we must needs assume that we're not in "school" during life, we're just a part of nature, and when we're dead, we're dead. Obviously there are benefits IN LIFE for education in ethics, morals, technology, etc. That's all there is, and that's what education is good for, FOR MAKING THIS SHORT LIFE WORTH SOMETHING MORE THAN A HELP TO THE ENTROPY DEATH OF THE UNIVERSE. There is no other meaning. Give it up. Indeed, death is the greatest illusion of all, if in fact it were merely "physical" ... Death is purely physical. There is no illusion. When you die, you stop working, and you stop thinking, being concious, etc. Until you can show some hard, testable, verifiable evidence otherwise, that's all anyone at all is bound to reasonably accept. And to think, God has one up on all of us! How? She must not exist, she's never done anything that I can verify, test, or falsify. Do you have anything to say, really, or are you just spouting your personal delusions at us again?
	__________________ The Power to Quit

5th January 2004, 12:41 PM	#18
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,715	Quote: Originally posted by JustGeoff More satisfaction? Well, yes. It's available now on LP, CD, and undoubtedly via pirated MP3 as well. I wonder how many royalties it still pulls in? Personally Iach* here reminds me more of "19th Nervious Breakdown" than "Satisfaction", though.
	__________________ The Power to Quit

5th January 2004, 12:45 PM	#19
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,715	Re: Re: Dead is the End? Quote: Originally posted by Suezoled Iacchus once again is: 1.) assuming this life is a waste Tragic, since that's all there is. I hope he doens't succumb to depression! 2.) There's better stuff on the other side of the septic tank No, no, no! The grass is always greener over the septic tank! 3.) is working on faith there's life after death and using it as "fact" S/he/it's been circular since day one. 4.) assuming there is a god You mean "blatantly asserting that as absolute, incontrovertable fact". It goes beyond his/her/its personal assumptions, I think. Actually, the greatest of unknowns, I think, (and Kitten would agree with me), is how much could we get for selling El Greco into slavery? Ok, ok, first Geoff got me to bite my tongue, and now you. It's you guys fault it's so sore! It's all your fault!
	__________________ The Power to Quit

5th January 2004, 03:11 PM	#20
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Q-Source It is your own interpretation. I don't think that I am "doing it all for nothing". The rewards for my actions are here and now, not in dead or in life after death. Those rewards keep me doing things in order to get more satisfaction. There are benefits here and now, that's why people who know that death is inevitable still enjoy doing things and enjoy searching for the truth. Actually I think most people feel this way, provided they have something useful to do. Which, is kind of why I'm asking it. You know, how can it begin so abruptly and then end so abruptly? It kind of leads you to ask if there weren't something more to it than this? In fact I think a lot of people have considered this at one time or another.

5th January 2004, 03:14 PM	#21
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by sparklecat Just for the sake of argument... What's the point of talking about us being here as a waste, unless you presuppose some sort of ultimate purpose for us? Life may seem a waste to us, but I doubt the universe cares. Do human beings human care? Then so does the universe. Unless of course you're willing to say that human beings aren't a part of it.

5th January 2004, 03:24 PM	#22
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Unless of course you're willing to say that human beings aren't a part of it. I'm willing to say that human beings are a very small, very unimportant portion of the universe. Further, I'd say that the vast majority of the universe probably doesn't care about us humans, assuming that rest of it even has the capacity to care in the first place.

5th January 2004, 03:27 PM	#23
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Iacchus, why don't you propose the most grand and glorious after-death scenario that you can possibly imagine. Then tell us what the point of it is. ~~ Paul But I would just be imagining things now wouldn't I? Besides, that would be telling.

5th January 2004, 03:47 PM	#24
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,907	Gods, I hope there's nothing after death. Can you imagine another ten gazillion boring Sunday afternoons? And that's just for starters. I did'nt exist for the first 15 billion years of this particular quantum flutter and I won't exist for the rest of it. The 48 I have existed for have been largely fun, but frankly, various bits already hurt in the mornings, while others have dropped clean off. I have reservations about the next couple of decades: I would hate to think there's no "off" switch.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,907

5th January 2004, 03:48 PM	#25
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Keziah Mason I'd like to see some evidence instead of all those "what-if"s and other wishful thinking which completely fails to impress. It's just your basic philosophical question, designed to get people to think, ya think?

5th January 2004, 03:59 PM	#26
T'ai Chi Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 11,235	Re: Re: Dead is the End? Someone said: (bold mine) "Proof by assertion. ..., nothing more, ..." Proof by assertion. "Life, after all, is much more valuable to the atheist who does not believe in the myth of life after death, because THIS LIFE IS ALL THERE IS." Proof by assertion. Do you have any scientific studies to back up your claim that "life is much more valuable to the atheist" nad "this life is all there is"? If they don't know, neither do you. Don't delay- please post your peer-reviewed scientific studies in your very next reply, that is, if it wasn't just your opinion.
	__________________ http://www.statisticool.com

5th January 2004, 04:04 PM	#27
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,919	It is a thought that has been trod down many a time, nothing new to it. Why worry about life after death, we are alive, when we are dead we will be dead. If it is a phase transition then there won't be the transmission of information. Does water vapor remember ice? Being is.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

5th January 2004, 04:05 PM	#28
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Upchurch I'm willing to say that human beings are a very small, very unimportant portion of the universe. Further, I'd say that the vast majority of the universe probably doesn't care about us humans, assuming that rest of it even has the capacity to care in the first place. Then why should we care about what can only be construed as an infinitesimal little glitch that occurs in universal terms (i.e., time and space), between our birth and our death? Why take yourself so seriously then? If the universe doesn't care, then why are we here "reasoning" about it?

5th January 2004, 04:10 PM	#29
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Then why should we care about what can only be construed as an infinitesimal little glitch that occurs in universal terms (i.e., time and space), between our birth and our death? Why take yourself so seriously then? If the universe doesn't care, then why are we here "reasoning" about it? Why do we need to be of massive import to the entire universe in order to be important to ourselves and each other? Why does that have to be true to be curious about things?
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

5th January 2004, 04:10 PM	#30
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Suezoled Iacchus once again is: 1.) assuming this life is a waste 2.) There's better stuff on the other side of the septic tank 3.) is working on faith there's life after death and using it as "fact" 4.) assuming there is a god No, I'm just questioning why I'm here? Quote: Actually, the greatest of unknowns, I think, (and Kitten would agree with me), is how much could we get for selling El Greco into slavery?

5th January 2004, 04:12 PM	#31
T'ai Chi Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 11,235	Re: Dead is the End? Iacchus, I love the types of questions that you raised in your opening post. I see death equally as necessary as life, for without life, there is no death, and vice-versa. Therefore, I see death as just another (albeit a very important) transformation, a continuing of the process that is experience. I just have to say that it is important as anything in our "waking" life (just like before birth), but that I don't know what happens with any certainty. I'm looking forward to one (a natural one, after about 85 or so years).
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5th January 2004, 04:27 PM	#32
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Ipecac This is the kind of argument believers drag out convinced that it will stop us poor, unthinking non-believers in our tracks. A tear will roll down our face, we'll realize the futility of a life without Jebus and we'll be at church the very next Sunday. Like all creatures, human beings have a survival instinct. We want to survive and we want to be comfortable doing so. Our work in life is geared towards this end. What other choice do we have, really? Just give up and die? We wouldn't have survived as a species without the drive to survive, whatever our eventual individual end. Ever stop to think that the only thing that makes sense out of anything is consciousness? Perhaps our brains and bodies are merely receptacles, linked to this thing called Universal Consciousness? Think about it. How else could we ever possibly agree that 1 + 1 = 2? If in fact there weren't somehing inherently universal -- i.e., through consciousness -- about it?

5th January 2004, 04:31 PM	#33
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by T'ai Chi Iacchus, I love the types of questions that you raised in your opening post. I see death equally as necessary as life, for without life, there is no death, and vice-versa. Therefore, I see death as just another (albeit a very important) transformation, a continuing of the process that is experience. I just have to say that it is important as anything in our "waking" life (just like before birth), but that I don't know what happens with any certainty. I'm looking forward to one (a natural one, after about 85 or so years). Yes, but what do grubs now -- except perhaps to prepare for when the time comes -- about being a butterfly?

5th January 2004, 04:58 PM	#34
neutrino_cannon Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seventh circle of limbo Posts: 2,575	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Yes, but do grubs now -- except perhaps to prepare for when the time comes -- about being a butterfly? The knowlege presently availible of the nervous system of a larval insect would compeel me to state that they really don't know about anything in advance to the sort of extent that we do. That and the analogy is irrelevant. We know about our deaths well in advance, a grup (grubs turn into flies BTW) has no conception, in all likliness, of it's impending transformation. Furthermore, metamorphosis in necessarily a change that is observable to other grubs, and if they were but bright enough to know what was going on to their comrade they would know the process is of transitory nature, with life thereafter. In death we have no such ability. When I look at a dying creature I just injected piping-hot lead into, I can be quite sure that it is not turning into a bloody moth. Further reassurance of this position comes when I rip out the innards, and see that all processes are ceased, save bleeding all over me. And so what if there is an afterlife. There's no way to test anything about it, or even be sure that it exists. We might as well worship the invisable pink unicorn, being that the evidence for either entity is the same. Focus on worldly problems I say. (see sigline) And if I ever find this "god" guy, then he had better hope that his omnipotence is still working, cause if it isn't he's gonna go back to heavan with an ear in his mouth for all the sh*t he's pulled down here.
	__________________ "Man would have been too happy, if, limiting himself to the visible objects which interested him, he had employed, to perfect his real sciences, his laws, his morals, his education, one half-the efforts he has put into his researches on the Divinity" -Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Necessity of Atheism

5th January 2004, 05:13 PM	#35
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Upchurch I've thought a bit more on this question and I realized that I never really answered it. The reason humanity as a whole endevors to learn new things and to improve ourselves in general is for the benefit of our children. The survival and betterment of our species is any parent's ultimate goal. There is no necessity in a "vocation" in the "next life" for us to learn in this one. You're getting closer to the analogy I see. And let's just assume for a moment that there were a Creator whom, some of us may address as Father. Don't you think He'd have a similar concern about the welfare of His children as well?