Judaism is more believable than Christianity

Thunder · 25th December 2009, 04:08 PM

sure, I was raised Jewish..which makes me kinda biased.

but still, I firmly believe that Judaism is more believable then Christianity.

you don't have to believe in Adam, Eve, Noah, even Abraham, to be a Jew. You don't have to believe that Moses received the Ten Commandments, to be a Jew. You can just believe that he was a bright man who was "inspired" by God, and wrote down the commandments.

in fact, much of the Jewish faith does not have to revolve around firm faith in miraculous events, you can just believe its all "divine inspiration".

now, Christianity is different. can you really consider Mary to be significant..if you do not believe she was REALLY a virgin? not really. cause then Joseph or some other dude, is the actual father..and NOT God.

secondly, can you simply see Jesus as divinely inspired...and not the ACTUAL son of God? not really. Jesus being God's literal son..is all of it. you can't really be a Christian while denying this.

and thirdly, Christ's resurrection. can you believe that this didn't actually occur..and imagine it was just some sort of hallucination? nope. if Jesus did NOT rise from the dead, then his whole existence, is meaningless.

see, Christianity is ALL about Jesus....as the SON of God, born of a VIRGIN Mary, died for the sins of ALL mankind, and ROSE from the dead.

deny any of this, and the whole thing comes tumbling down, like a Jenga game.

Merry Christmas.

Sledge · 25th December 2009, 04:40 PM

Yeah, Judasim is far more believable, if you ignore that whole "believing in God" thing.

I Ratant · 25th December 2009, 04:51 PM

Balancing all the religions against common sense, the scales never begin to move no matter how many religions you pile on that side of the scale.

Cavemonster · 25th December 2009, 05:00 PM

Maybe formally,

In practice, there are plenty of Christians who value the metaphor and don't necessarily need to believe in the literal supernatural events, and plenty of Jews who hold to a strict literal interpretation of things like the parting of the red sea and other supernatural wonders.

Redtail · 25th December 2009, 06:26 PM

Sigh... So sad. Every year at this time Jews compare their dradles and pencils to their friend's Hot Wheel tracks and Transformers, then they lash out...

Skeptic Ginger · 25th December 2009, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

sure, I was raised Jewish..which makes me kinda biased.

but still, I firmly believe that Judaism is more believable then Christianity.

you don't have to believe in Adam, Eve, Noah, even Abraham, to be a Jew. You don't have to believe that Moses received the Ten Commandments, to be a Jew. You can just believe that he was a bright man who was "inspired" by God, and wrote down the commandments.

in fact, much of the Jewish faith does not have to revolve around firm faith in miraculous events, you can just believe its all "divine inspiration".

now, Christianity is different. can you really consider Mary to be significant..if you do not believe she was REALLY a virgin? not really. cause then Joseph or some other dude, is the actual father..and NOT God.

secondly, can you simply see Jesus as divinely inspired...and not the ACTUAL son of God? not really. Jesus being God's literal son..is all of it. you can't really be a Christian while denying this.

and thirdly, Christ's resurrection. can you believe that this didn't actually occur..and imagine it was just some sort of hallucination? nope. if Jesus did NOT rise from the dead, then his whole existence, is meaningless.

see, Christianity is ALL about Jesus....as the SON of God, born of a VIRGIN Mary, died for the sins of ALL mankind, and ROSE from the dead.

deny any of this, and the whole thing comes tumbling down, like a Jenga game.

Merry Christmas.

You don't have to believe in anything to be a Jew. And that makes it better than Christianity?

Forgive me but, I see no difference in Jewish god beliefs and Christian god beliefs.

Thunder · 25th December 2009, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Redtail

Sigh... So sad. Every year at this time Jews compare their dradles and pencils to their friend's Hot Wheel tracks and Transformers, then they lash out...

lololol!!!

we get 8 crazy nights damn it!!!

Ausmerican · 25th December 2009, 10:04 PM

Kinda like saying Spider-Man is more believable than Superman though isn't it?

P.S: I was going to say Batman instead of Spider-Man but he was way too high on the believability scale compared to the subject(s) at hand.

Limbo · 25th December 2009, 10:40 PM

parky76, what's your opinion of Kabbalah? And of Christian Kabbalah?

HansMustermann · 25th December 2009, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

sure, I was raised Jewish..which makes me kinda biased.

but still, I firmly believe that Judaism is more believable then Christianity.

you don't have to believe in Adam, Eve, Noah, even Abraham, to be a Jew. You don't have to believe that Moses received the Ten Commandments, to be a Jew. You can just believe that he was a bright man who was "inspired" by God, and wrote down the commandments.

in fact, much of the Jewish faith does not have to revolve around firm faith in miraculous events, you can just believe its all "divine inspiration".

now, Christianity is different. can you really consider Mary to be significant..if you do not believe she was REALLY a virgin? not really. cause then Joseph or some other dude, is the actual father..and NOT God.

secondly, can you simply see Jesus as divinely inspired...and not the ACTUAL son of God? not really. Jesus being God's literal son..is all of it. you can't really be a Christian while denying this.

and thirdly, Christ's resurrection. can you believe that this didn't actually occur..and imagine it was just some sort of hallucination? nope. if Jesus did NOT rise from the dead, then his whole existence, is meaningless.

see, Christianity is ALL about Jesus....as the SON of God, born of a VIRGIN Mary, died for the sins of ALL mankind, and ROSE from the dead.

deny any of this, and the whole thing comes tumbling down, like a Jenga game.

Merry Christmas.

You haven't talked to many Christians, Parky?

You know that, for example, the followers of Pelagius considered themselves Christians too? They considered Jesus to be more or less just a good role-model, and that you can get saved even without him. And Adam just set a bad example in that view, but otherwise they had no Original Sin.

Even about Jesus and Mary, pre-Nicean doctrines included:

- Psilanthropism, i.e., the view that Jesus was merely a perfectly normal human, who was an agent of God, but merely human nevertheless

- Docetism, i.e., the view that Jesus's physical body was just an illusion, that he was an incorporeal spirit, and basically that he didn't die on the cross in the first place. That was an illusion too. And I figure that neatly denies the virgin birth too, since, really all that was born was an illusion. (This was a long lived heresy too, surviving at least into the 13'th century.)

And then were the Gnostics. Ooer. Now those could get creative with the reading of the bible. E.g., the Ophites saw the Serpent in Genesis as an agent of the true God, and Yahweh as basically the adversary who was trying to keep humans from achieving their true potential.

And again those too considered themselves Christians. Valentinus even was a disciple of Theudas, which in turn was a disciple of Paul of Tarsus. Far from considering himself the proponent of a new religion, Valentinus was very convinced that he got Christianity right and everyone else got it wrong.

That's how diverse "Christianity" was before Constantine standardized it.

But I'm not bringing that up just as a historical oddity, but really my impression is that most self-professed Christians today are really followers of some self-brewed version Pelagianism, Arianism, Nestorianism, etc, going all the way to essentially Deism, but still consider themselves Christians.

But, generally, what makes you think that Judaism is unique in that aspect? There are enough people of any religion who take it as just a divine metaphor, to various degrees. Or not even that. See Deism again.

Hux · 26th December 2009, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

Maybe formally,

In practice, there are plenty of Christians who value the metaphor and don't necessarily need to believe in the literal supernatural events, and plenty of Jews who hold to a strict literal interpretation of things like the parting of the red sea and other supernatural wonders.

Forgive me for asking but don't you have to believe in the literal and actual resurrection of Jesus to be able to call yourself a Christian?

JJM 777 · 26th December 2009, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

but still, I firmly believe that Judaism is more believable then Christianity.

- It is much easier to find people who believe that Jesus was born 2000 years ago than people who believe that the first human on earth was created 5770 years ago.

Originally Posted by parky76

see, Christianity is ALL about Jesus....as the SON of God, born of a VIRGIN Mary, died for the sins of ALL mankind, and ROSE from the dead.

Obviously you have never heard of unitarian Christianity (or Jehovah's Witnesses), who believe that there is only one God (the same as in Old Testament), Jesus was created by that God, Jesus is not that God, Jesus prays to that God, and in everything obeys the will of that God.

Trinitarian theology (three = one) is nowhere defined in the Bible, with any clarity anyway. It was clearly defined (and declared as the only orthodox form of Christian faith) a few hundred years AD.

HansMustermann · 26th December 2009, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Forgive me for asking but don't you have to believe in the literal and actual resurrection of Jesus to be able to call yourself a Christian?

Obviously at least one of the major pre-Nicaea christology school of thought called themselves Christians without believing that Jesus even existed in a proper human body, nor that the crucifixion was anything more than, basically, a good show. The idea would be later absorbed into other gnostic and heretic sects, e.g., the Cathars. Who didn't think they were anything else than Christians either.

Dancing David · 26th December 2009, 05:14 AM

Um , Parky, there are many xians who do not meet your defintions. Not that I support their beliefs mind you.

Dancing David · 26th December 2009, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Forgive me for asking but don't you have to believe in the literal and actual resurrection of Jesus to be able to call yourself a Christian?

No, that is a doctrine. Not a universal, now it is a commonly held beleif but again there are xians who do not hold with the literal resurrection.

It is part of the original 'jesus people' movement that many believed that jesus was just a human, not the son of god anymore that 'we are all the children of god'. I find it ironic that most jesus people went on to become born again.

Thunder · 26th December 2009, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

- It is much easier to find people who believe that Jesus was born 2000 years ago than people who believe that the first human on earth was created 5770 years ago.

i bet i could find 100 Rabbis who would say that you don't have to take such things literally in order to be a Jew....and even a good Jew.

could you find 100 priests who would tell you it is not necessary to believe that Jesus was the literal Son of God, and they he literally rose from the dead, in order to be a good Christian?

i doubt it.

Thunder · 26th December 2009, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

parky76, what's your opinion of Kabbalah? And of Christian Kabbalah?

don't know enough about it to have a genuine opinion.

Merko · 26th December 2009, 06:48 AM

Since it makes no sense to call yourself a Christian without believing in Christ to be a God, and since every major Christian sect refers to itself as monotheist, I do agree that Judaism is slightly more believable than Christianity.

On the other hand, I think Zoroastrism (Mazdaism) is slightly more believable than Judaism. They have a reasonable solution to theodicy. According to Mazdaism, although Ahura Mazda is the only God and the most powerful one, who will eventually realize his ultimate goal, he is not immediately all powerful and it will take some time before he defeats the evil Ahriman.

But then I would find almost any polytheistic religion more believable than the monotheisms.

HansMustermann · 26th December 2009, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

i bet i could find 100 Rabbis who would say that you don't have to take such things literally in order to be a Jew....and even a good Jew.

could you find 100 priests who would tell you it is not necessary to believe that Jesus was the literal Son of God, and they he literally rose from the dead, in order to be a good Christian?

i doubt it.

1. It seems to me like you're equivocating between being Jew by descent and by religion.

2. In the same sense (i.e., equivocation too, pretty much) you can even be an atheist Catholic, because once you got baptized, there's no way to stop being counted as a Catholic by the church. (The state's census might have a different opinion, but that's secular authorities for ya.) Dunno what they put in that baptism water, but no detergent gets it off you

3. I see your 100 priests/rabbis and raise two popes. (Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.)

Seriously, the current "anonymous christian" doctrine is just that: you can be a Christian, even a good Christian, without even knowing it or even having heard of Jesus. It's the official Vatican doctrine, too. I'm not kidding.

In fact, you can think you're a devout follower of Judaism, or a devout Tibetan Buddhist monk, but count as Christian enough for that doctrine, if you're a really nice person.

See, the traditional view before Vatican 2.0 was that you won't be saved unless you believe in Jesus and pray real hard. Since, you know, you can only be saved through Jesus. Which meant that a lot of otherwise good people would go to hell, just by virtue of being the wrong religion or sect.

The Anonymous Christian doctrine was formulated in the 20'th century more or less to solve this problem. It says that basically you can have the grace of Jesus and do His work, without even knowing it, so you're going to heaven anyway.

And, oh, your non-Christian holy books get their good parts from Jesus too, even though you might not know it

So there you go, straight from the Vatican itself: you _can_ be a good Christian and saved, without actually believing that Jesus even existed.

ETA: just in case it wasn't already clear: you can even actively _deny_ Christianity or the Christ, and still be an anonymous Christian. Roll that around in your head

I Ratant · 26th December 2009, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

i bet i could find 100 Rabbis ...

.
Stop right there!
2 rabbis, -3- opinions!
Everyone knows that!

Thunder · 26th December 2009, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Seriously, the current "anonymous christian" doctrine is just that: you can be a Christian, even a good Christian, without even knowing it or even having heard of Jesus. It's the official Vatican doctrine, too. I'm not kidding.

The Anonymous Christian doctrine was formulated in the 20'th century more or less to solve this problem. It says that basically you can have the grace of Jesus and do His work, without even knowing it, so you're going to heaven anyway.

ah, you can be a Christian without even knowing the name Jesus. fascinating.

too bad the New Testament says otherwise.

Hux · 26th December 2009, 10:24 AM

How could you really be a good Christian without knowledge of Jesus? This sounds like a special pleading to encompass everyone whether they want it or not.

As I understand it you must accept Jesus as your personal saviour or you will go to a very hot place. How can you do so if you have no knowledge of Him?

tsig · 26th December 2009, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

ah, you can be a Christian without even knowing the name Jesus. fascinating.

too bad the New Testament says otherwise.

Never mention the Bible to a Catholic. They have the Pope trump card, he's an infallible conduit to god's mind.

tsig · 26th December 2009, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

How could you really be a good Christian without knowledge of Jesus? This sounds like a special pleading to encompass everyone whether they want it or not.

As I understand it you must accept Jesus as your personal saviour or you will go to a very hot place. How can you do so if you have no knowledge of Him?

The doctrine is called "invincible ignorance".

"The term "invincible ignorance" has its roots in Catholic theology, opposite of the term vincible ignorance, where it is used to refer to the state of persons (such as pagans and infants) who are ignorant of the Christian message because they have not yet had an opportunity to hear it. The earliest use of the term seems to have been by Pope Pius IX in Quanto Conficiamur (1863), although discussion of the concept can be found as far back as Origen. When and how the term was taken by logicians to refer to the state of persons who pigheadedly refuse to attend to evidence remains unclear, but one of its first uses was in the book Fallacy: The Counterfeit of Argument by W. Ward Fearnside and William B. Holther"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

HansMustermann · 26th December 2009, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

ah, you can be a Christian without even knowing the name Jesus. fascinating.

too bad the New Testament says otherwise.

Nope, the New Testament taken literally says that you can only be saved through Jesus, and that only Christians will be saved. The anonymous Christian doctrine neatly side-steps both. Apparently you _are_ guided by and saved through Jesus, even though you might think you're following the Tanakh or Noble 8-Fold Path or the Quran, and you're an anonymous Christian so that condition is fulfilled too.

You really have to hand it to these guys, they know their NT and its loopholes

HansMustermann · 26th December 2009, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Hux

How could you really be a good Christian without knowledge of Jesus? This sounds like a special pleading to encompass everyone whether they want it or not.

As I understand it you must accept Jesus as your personal saviour or you will go to a very hot place. How can you do so if you have no knowledge of Him?

You nailed it pefectly well. The "Anonymous Christian" doctrine _is_ encompassing everyone, whether they want it or not. Really, if you follow your conscience and do good stuff, tag, you're it. And Randi is probably a good Christian too. And the Dalai Lama. Everyone, really

dafydd · 26th December 2009, 12:31 PM

They are both equally unbelievable

John Jones · 26th December 2009, 12:50 PM

And there's the parable of the Good Samaritan

Thunder · 26th December 2009, 01:06 PM

well, Judaism does have a way towards "salvation" for non-Jews. its called the Noahide Laws. basically, as long as you guys follow the following rules, you all is cool:

seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3]

Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse.
Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)

jimtron · 26th December 2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

You can just believe that he was a bright man who was "inspired" by God, and wrote down the commandments.

"just"? This requires two leaps of faith, one of which (belief in god) is a huge one. Besides, Christians could say something similar: "you don't have to believe everything in the Bible, just that Jesus is god and died for our sins."

HansMustermann · 26th December 2009, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

well, Judaism does have a way towards "salvation" for non-Jews. its called the Noahide Laws. basically, as long as you guys follow the following rules, you all is cool:

seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3]

Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse.
Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)

Sounds like you guys are really getting shafted. I mean, I can eat pork, keep my tool uncut, eat mixed grain, wear mixed fiber, etc, and it's all good. But if you got born of a Jewish mother, then you really have to jump through loops to get the same result... hmm, do you figure out that God is an antisemite?

Thunder · 26th December 2009, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Sounds like you guys are really getting shafted. I mean, I can eat pork, keep my tool uncut, eat mixed grain, wear mixed fiber, etc, and it's all good. But if you got born of a Jewish mother, then you really have to jump through loops to get the same result... hmm, do you figure out that God is an antisemite?

Our God..is a kind God. He made life much easier for you guys.

Enjoy it and count your blessings you were not born a Jew. God would expect a lot more from you, if you had been.

By the way, HOW MANY other religions actually set up rules for others to follow?

this is why Judaism is an ok faith. not withstanding the whole Israel/Palestine issue, we really are pretty good to non-believers.

I Ratant · 26th December 2009, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

....

By the way, HOW MANY other religions actually set up rules for others to follow?
...
.

.
All of them that offer salvation.. if you accept it, and death if you don't.

HansMustermann · 26th December 2009, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

Our God..is a kind God. He made life much easier for you guys.

Enjoy it and count your blessings you were not born a Jew. God would expect a lot more from you, if you had been.

By the way, HOW MANY other religions actually set up rules for others to follow?

this is why Judaism is an ok faith. not withstanding the whole Israel/Palestine issue, we really are pretty good to non-believers.

Actually, AFAIK all non-abrahamic religions ever were very inclusive.

E.g., if you didn't break the same 42 rules the Egyptians got, you could stand tall in front of Osiris and proclaim your innocence like any Egyptians, and earn the same afterlife. Historically actually a lot of wealthy people moved to Egypt in their old age just to be mummified and buried Egyptian style, although almost certainly most didn't fully convert to any flavour of it.

E.g., Buddhism does not discriminate against non-Buddhists, and much less based on ethnicity. You can at least theoretically earn your Nirvana on your own, like the AHB did.

E.g., Shintoism does not discriminate against non-Shinto, nor against non-japanese. Your spirit is just as good as any other spirit.

E.g., Asatro never discriminated against foreigners or heathens. If you die bravely in battle, or otherwise in a way that shows no fear in face of death, you're as good as any Norse lad or lass to be one of Odin's Einherjar.

Etc.

Dubbi · 26th December 2009, 02:54 PM

Parky,

If you consider yiddishkeyt to be simply the first testament and Christianity to be a collection of the first and second testament, then yes - our shtick is more believable since we only make a subset of Christianity's claims. But then if you add the Kabbalah and the portions of the Talmud that aren't simply arguments dealing with things such as business ethics etc, then it's hard to tell; especially if you add on chassidic beliefs.

Thunder · 26th December 2009, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dubbi

Parky,

If you consider yiddishkeyt to be simply the first testament and Christianity to be a collection of the first and second testament

Yiddishkeit? who the hell mentioned that?

Maia · 26th December 2009, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Hux

Forgive me for asking but don't you have to believe in the literal and actual resurrection of Jesus to be able to call yourself a Christian?

No, not at all. Let's not forget John Shelby Spong!

Who doesn't believe that, or

Quote:

"you don't have to believe everything in the Bible, just that Jesus is god and died for our sins."

this

Quote:

Apparently you _are_ guided by and saved through Jesus, even though you might think you're following the Tanakh or Noble 8-Fold Path or the Quran

or that, but absolutely does call himself a Christian.

JoeTheJuggler · 26th December 2009, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Obviously at least one of the major pre-Nicaea christology school of thought called themselves Christians without believing that Jesus even existed in a proper human body, nor that the crucifixion was anything more than, basically, a good show. The idea would be later absorbed into other gnostic and heretic sects, e.g., the Cathars. Who didn't think they were anything else than Christians either.

I think there are even flavors of modern Christianity that don't have the same kind of Christological beliefs as mainstream Christianity.

There are non-trinitarians (Newton was one of these--also, I think Unitarians), and at least the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in a physical resurrection. (I think it's that they don't believe Jesus ever had a real physical body, so the resurrection was in spirit only--or something like that.)

HansMustermann · 26th December 2009, 04:54 PM

So docetism survived into the 21'st century after all? Well, what can I say... I'm impressed.

Thunder · 26th December 2009, 06:00 PM

there are many...many..many streams of Christianity. From Coptic and Orthodox...to Presbyterian and AME.

But none of them..none...will officially have as their view..that one can be a good Christian without believing that Jesus IS the literal Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, died for the sins of mankind, and Rose from the grave.

sorry charlie.

however, Conservative and Reform Judaism, are indeed liberal (and fluid) regarding one's beliefs of the Torah being the literal word of God, and especially the Talmud being the literal law of God.

25th December 2009, 04:08 PM	#1
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Judaism is more believable than Christianity sure, I was raised Jewish..which makes me kinda biased. but still, I firmly believe that Judaism is more believable then Christianity. you don't have to believe in Adam, Eve, Noah, even Abraham, to be a Jew. You don't have to believe that Moses received the Ten Commandments, to be a Jew. You can just believe that he was a bright man who was "inspired" by God, and wrote down the commandments. in fact, much of the Jewish faith does not have to revolve around firm faith in miraculous events, you can just believe its all "divine inspiration". now, Christianity is different. can you really consider Mary to be significant..if you do not believe she was REALLY a virgin? not really. cause then Joseph or some other dude, is the actual father..and NOT God. secondly, can you simply see Jesus as divinely inspired...and not the ACTUAL son of God? not really. Jesus being God's literal son..is all of it. you can't really be a Christian while denying this. and thirdly, Christ's resurrection. can you believe that this didn't actually occur..and imagine it was just some sort of hallucination? nope. if Jesus did NOT rise from the dead, then his whole existence, is meaningless. see, Christianity is ALL about Jesus....as the SON of God, born of a VIRGIN Mary, died for the sins of ALL mankind, and ROSE from the dead. deny any of this, and the whole thing comes tumbling down, like a Jenga game. Merry Christmas.

25th December 2009, 04:40 PM	#2
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Yeah, Judasim is far more believable, if you ignore that whole "believing in God" thing.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

25th December 2009, 05:00 PM	#4
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	Maybe formally, In practice, there are plenty of Christians who value the metaphor and don't necessarily need to believe in the literal supernatural events, and plenty of Jews who hold to a strict literal interpretation of things like the parting of the red sea and other supernatural wonders.
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

25th December 2009, 06:26 PM	#5
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Sigh... So sad. Every year at this time Jews compare their dradles and pencils to their friend's Hot Wheel tracks and Transformers, then they lash out...
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

25th December 2009, 07:23 PM	#6
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,518	Originally Posted by parky76 sure, I was raised Jewish..which makes me kinda biased. but still, I firmly believe that Judaism is more believable then Christianity. you don't have to believe in Adam, Eve, Noah, even Abraham, to be a Jew. You don't have to believe that Moses received the Ten Commandments, to be a Jew. You can just believe that he was a bright man who was "inspired" by God, and wrote down the commandments. in fact, much of the Jewish faith does not have to revolve around firm faith in miraculous events, you can just believe its all "divine inspiration". now, Christianity is different. can you really consider Mary to be significant..if you do not believe she was REALLY a virgin? not really. cause then Joseph or some other dude, is the actual father..and NOT God. secondly, can you simply see Jesus as divinely inspired...and not the ACTUAL son of God? not really. Jesus being God's literal son..is all of it. you can't really be a Christian while denying this. and thirdly, Christ's resurrection. can you believe that this didn't actually occur..and imagine it was just some sort of hallucination? nope. if Jesus did NOT rise from the dead, then his whole existence, is meaningless. see, Christianity is ALL about Jesus....as the SON of God, born of a VIRGIN Mary, died for the sins of ALL mankind, and ROSE from the dead. deny any of this, and the whole thing comes tumbling down, like a Jenga game. Merry Christmas. You don't have to believe in anything to be a Jew. And that makes it better than Christianity? Forgive me but, I see no difference in Jewish god beliefs and Christian god beliefs.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

25th December 2009, 04:51 PM	#3
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Balancing all the religions against common sense, the scales never begin to move no matter how many religions you pile on that side of the scale.

25th December 2009, 07:26 PM	#7
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Redtail Sigh... So sad. Every year at this time Jews compare their dradles and pencils to their friend's Hot Wheel tracks and Transformers, then they lash out... lololol!!! we get 8 crazy nights damn it!!!

25th December 2009, 10:04 PM	#8
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,381	Kinda like saying Spider-Man is more believable than Superman though isn't it? P.S: I was going to say Batman instead of Spider-Man but he was way too high on the believability scale compared to the subject(s) at hand.
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,381	__________________ Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing. Henry David Thoreau

25th December 2009, 10:40 PM	#9
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	parky76, what's your opinion of Kabbalah? And of Christian Kabbalah?
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

25th December 2009, 11:35 PM	#10
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,829	Originally Posted by parky76 sure, I was raised Jewish..which makes me kinda biased. but still, I firmly believe that Judaism is more believable then Christianity. you don't have to believe in Adam, Eve, Noah, even Abraham, to be a Jew. You don't have to believe that Moses received the Ten Commandments, to be a Jew. You can just believe that he was a bright man who was "inspired" by God, and wrote down the commandments. in fact, much of the Jewish faith does not have to revolve around firm faith in miraculous events, you can just believe its all "divine inspiration". now, Christianity is different. can you really consider Mary to be significant..if you do not believe she was REALLY a virgin? not really. cause then Joseph or some other dude, is the actual father..and NOT God. secondly, can you simply see Jesus as divinely inspired...and not the ACTUAL son of God? not really. Jesus being God's literal son..is all of it. you can't really be a Christian while denying this. and thirdly, Christ's resurrection. can you believe that this didn't actually occur..and imagine it was just some sort of hallucination? nope. if Jesus did NOT rise from the dead, then his whole existence, is meaningless. see, Christianity is ALL about Jesus....as the SON of God, born of a VIRGIN Mary, died for the sins of ALL mankind, and ROSE from the dead. deny any of this, and the whole thing comes tumbling down, like a Jenga game. Merry Christmas. You haven't talked to many Christians, Parky? You know that, for example, the followers of Pelagius considered themselves Christians too? They considered Jesus to be more or less just a good role-model, and that you can get saved even without him. And Adam just set a bad example in that view, but otherwise they had no Original Sin. Even about Jesus and Mary, pre-Nicean doctrines included: - Psilanthropism, i.e., the view that Jesus was merely a perfectly normal human, who was an agent of God, but merely human nevertheless - Docetism, i.e., the view that Jesus's physical body was just an illusion, that he was an incorporeal spirit, and basically that he didn't die on the cross in the first place. That was an illusion too. And I figure that neatly denies the virgin birth too, since, really all that was born was an illusion. (This was a long lived heresy too, surviving at least into the 13'th century.) And then were the Gnostics. Ooer. Now those could get creative with the reading of the bible. E.g., the Ophites saw the Serpent in Genesis as an agent of the true God, and Yahweh as basically the adversary who was trying to keep humans from achieving their true potential. And again those too considered themselves Christians. Valentinus even was a disciple of Theudas, which in turn was a disciple of Paul of Tarsus. Far from considering himself the proponent of a new religion, Valentinus was very convinced that he got Christianity right and everyone else got it wrong. That's how diverse "Christianity" was before Constantine standardized it. But I'm not bringing that up just as a historical oddity, but really my impression is that most self-professed Christians today are really followers of some self-brewed version Pelagianism, Arianism, Nestorianism, etc, going all the way to essentially Deism, but still consider themselves Christians. But, generally, what makes you think that Judaism is unique in that aspect? There are enough people of any religion who take it as just a divine metaphor, to various degrees. Or not even that. See Deism again.

26th December 2009, 03:14 AM	#11
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	Originally Posted by Cavemonster Maybe formally, In practice, there are plenty of Christians who value the metaphor and don't necessarily need to believe in the literal supernatural events, and plenty of Jews who hold to a strict literal interpretation of things like the parting of the red sea and other supernatural wonders. Forgive me for asking but don't you have to believe in the literal and actual resurrection of Jesus to be able to call yourself a Christian?
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	__________________ *...people of faith who are that intelligent they've only managed to fool themselves* - MARDUK

26th December 2009, 03:15 AM	#12
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by parky76 but still, I firmly believe that Judaism is more believable then Christianity. - It is much easier to find people who believe that Jesus was born 2000 years ago than people who believe that the first human on earth was created 5770 years ago. Originally Posted by parky76 see, Christianity is ALL about Jesus....as the SON of God, born of a VIRGIN Mary, died for the sins of ALL mankind, and ROSE from the dead. Obviously you have never heard of unitarian Christianity (or Jehovah's Witnesses), who believe that there is only one God (the same as in Old Testament), Jesus was created by that God, Jesus is not that God, Jesus prays to that God, and in everything obeys the will of that God. Trinitarian theology (three = one) is nowhere defined in the Bible, with any clarity anyway. It was clearly defined (and declared as the only orthodox form of Christian faith) a few hundred years AD.

26th December 2009, 04:39 AM	#13
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,829	Originally Posted by Hux Forgive me for asking but don't you have to believe in the literal and actual resurrection of Jesus to be able to call yourself a Christian? Obviously at least one of the major pre-Nicaea christology school of thought called themselves Christians without believing that Jesus even existed in a proper human body, nor that the crucifixion was anything more than, basically, a good show. The idea would be later absorbed into other gnostic and heretic sects, e.g., the Cathars. Who didn't think they were anything else than Christians either.

26th December 2009, 05:14 AM	#14
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,702	Um , Parky, there are many xians who do not meet your defintions. Not that I support their beliefs mind you.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

26th December 2009, 05:18 AM	#15
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,702	Originally Posted by Hux Forgive me for asking but don't you have to believe in the literal and actual resurrection of Jesus to be able to call yourself a Christian? No, that is a doctrine. Not a universal, now it is a commonly held beleif but again there are xians who do not hold with the literal resurrection. It is part of the original 'jesus people' movement that many believed that jesus was just a human, not the son of god anymore that 'we are all the children of god'. I find it ironic that most jesus people went on to become born again.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

26th December 2009, 06:27 AM	#16
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by JJM 777 - It is much easier to find people who believe that Jesus was born 2000 years ago than people who believe that the first human on earth was created 5770 years ago. i bet i could find 100 Rabbis who would say that you don't have to take such things literally in order to be a Jew....and even a good Jew. could you find 100 priests who would tell you it is not necessary to believe that Jesus was the literal Son of God, and they he literally rose from the dead, in order to be a good Christian? i doubt it.

26th December 2009, 06:29 AM	#17
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Limbo parky76, what's your opinion of Kabbalah? And of Christian Kabbalah? don't know enough about it to have a genuine opinion.

26th December 2009, 06:48 AM	#18
Merko Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,901	Since it makes no sense to call yourself a Christian without believing in Christ to be a God, and since every major Christian sect refers to itself as monotheist, I do agree that Judaism is slightly more believable than Christianity. On the other hand, I think Zoroastrism (Mazdaism) is slightly more believable than Judaism. They have a reasonable solution to theodicy. According to Mazdaism, although Ahura Mazda is the only God and the most powerful one, who will eventually realize his ultimate goal, he is not immediately all powerful and it will take some time before he defeats the evil Ahriman. But then I would find almost any polytheistic religion more believable than the monotheisms.
Merko Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,901

26th December 2009, 08:10 AM	#19
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,829	Originally Posted by parky76 i bet i could find 100 Rabbis who would say that you don't have to take such things literally in order to be a Jew....and even a good Jew. could you find 100 priests who would tell you it is not necessary to believe that Jesus was the literal Son of God, and they he literally rose from the dead, in order to be a good Christian? i doubt it. 1. It seems to me like you're equivocating between being Jew by descent and by religion. 2. In the same sense (i.e., equivocation too, pretty much) you can even be an atheist Catholic, because once you got baptized, there's no way to stop being counted as a Catholic by the church. (The state's census might have a different opinion, but that's secular authorities for ya.) Dunno what they put in that baptism water, but no detergent gets it off you 3. I see your 100 priests/rabbis and raise two popes. (Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.) Seriously, the current "anonymous christian" doctrine is just that: you can be a Christian, even a good Christian, without even knowing it or even having heard of Jesus. It's the official Vatican doctrine, too. I'm not kidding. In fact, you can think you're a devout follower of Judaism, or a devout Tibetan Buddhist monk, but count as Christian enough for that doctrine, if you're a really nice person. See, the traditional view before Vatican 2.0 was that you won't be saved unless you believe in Jesus and pray real hard. Since, you know, you can only be saved through Jesus. Which meant that a lot of otherwise good people would go to hell, just by virtue of being the wrong religion or sect. The Anonymous Christian doctrine was formulated in the 20'th century more or less to solve this problem. It says that basically you can have the grace of Jesus and do His work, without even knowing it, so you're going to heaven anyway. And, oh, your non-Christian holy books get their good parts from Jesus too, even though you might not know it So there you go, straight from the Vatican itself: you _can_ be a good Christian and saved, without actually believing that Jesus even existed. ETA: just in case it wasn't already clear: you can even actively _deny_ Christianity or the Christ, and still be an anonymous Christian. Roll that around in your head
	Last edited by HansMustermann; 26th December 2009 at 08:21 AM.

26th December 2009, 09:16 AM	#20
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by parky76 i bet i could find 100 Rabbis ... . Stop right there! 2 rabbis, -3- opinions! Everyone knows that!

26th December 2009, 09:44 AM	#21
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Seriously, the current "anonymous christian" doctrine is just that: you can be a Christian, even a good Christian, without even knowing it or even having heard of Jesus. It's the official Vatican doctrine, too. I'm not kidding. The Anonymous Christian doctrine was formulated in the 20'th century more or less to solve this problem. It says that basically you can have the grace of Jesus and do His work, without even knowing it, so you're going to heaven anyway. ah, you can be a Christian without even knowing the name Jesus. fascinating. too bad the New Testament says otherwise.

26th December 2009, 10:24 AM	#22
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	How could you really be a good Christian without knowledge of Jesus? This sounds like a special pleading to encompass everyone whether they want it or not. As I understand it you must accept Jesus as your personal saviour or you will go to a very hot place. How can you do so if you have no knowledge of Him?
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	__________________ *...people of faith who are that intelligent they've only managed to fool themselves* - MARDUK

26th December 2009, 10:47 AM	#23
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,697	Originally Posted by parky76 ah, you can be a Christian without even knowing the name Jesus. fascinating. too bad the New Testament says otherwise. Never mention the Bible to a Catholic. They have the Pope trump card, he's an infallible conduit to god's mind.

26th December 2009, 10:54 AM	#24
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,697	Originally Posted by Hux How could you really be a good Christian without knowledge of Jesus? This sounds like a special pleading to encompass everyone whether they want it or not. As I understand it you must accept Jesus as your personal saviour or you will go to a very hot place. How can you do so if you have no knowledge of Him? The doctrine is called "invincible ignorance". "The term "invincible ignorance" has its roots in Catholic theology, opposite of the term vincible ignorance, where it is used to refer to the state of persons (such as pagans and infants) who are ignorant of the Christian message because they have not yet had an opportunity to hear it. The earliest use of the term seems to have been by Pope Pius IX in Quanto Conficiamur (1863), although discussion of the concept can be found as far back as Origen. When and how the term was taken by logicians to refer to the state of persons who pigheadedly refuse to attend to evidence remains unclear, but one of its first uses was in the book Fallacy: The Counterfeit of Argument by W. Ward Fearnside and William B. Holther" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

26th December 2009, 12:23 PM	#25
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,829	Originally Posted by parky76 ah, you can be a Christian without even knowing the name Jesus. fascinating. too bad the New Testament says otherwise. Nope, the New Testament taken literally says that you can only be saved through Jesus, and that only Christians will be saved. The anonymous Christian doctrine neatly side-steps both. Apparently you _are_ guided by and saved through Jesus, even though you might think you're following the Tanakh or Noble 8-Fold Path or the Quran, and you're an anonymous Christian so that condition is fulfilled too. You really have to hand it to these guys, they know their NT and its loopholes

26th December 2009, 12:25 PM	#26
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,829	Originally Posted by Hux How could you really be a good Christian without knowledge of Jesus? This sounds like a special pleading to encompass everyone whether they want it or not. As I understand it you must accept Jesus as your personal saviour or you will go to a very hot place. How can you do so if you have no knowledge of Him? You nailed it pefectly well. The "Anonymous Christian" doctrine _is_ encompassing everyone, whether they want it or not. Really, if you follow your conscience and do good stuff, tag, you're it. And Randi is probably a good Christian too. And the Dalai Lama. Everyone, really
	Last edited by HansMustermann; 26th December 2009 at 12:31 PM.

26th December 2009, 12:31 PM	#27
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,444	They are both equally unbelievable

26th December 2009, 12:50 PM	#28
John Jones Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3,707	And there's the parable of the Good Samaritan
John Jones Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3,707

26th December 2009, 01:06 PM	#29
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	well, Judaism does have a way towards "salvation" for non-Jews. its called the Noahide Laws. basically, as long as you guys follow the following rules, you all is cool: seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3] Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6) Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4) Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)

26th December 2009, 01:36 PM	#30
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,965	Quote: You can just believe that he was a bright man who was "inspired" by God, and wrote down the commandments. "just"? This requires two leaps of faith, one of which (belief in god) is a huge one. Besides, Christians could say something similar: "you don't have to believe everything in the Bible, just that Jesus is god and died for our sins."
	__________________

26th December 2009, 01:56 PM	#31
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,829	Originally Posted by parky76 well, Judaism does have a way towards "salvation" for non-Jews. its called the Noahide Laws. basically, as long as you guys follow the following rules, you all is cool: seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3] Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6) Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4) Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts) Sounds like you guys are really getting shafted. I mean, I can eat pork, keep my tool uncut, eat mixed grain, wear mixed fiber, etc, and it's all good. But if you got born of a Jewish mother, then you really have to jump through loops to get the same result... hmm, do you figure out that God is an antisemite?

26th December 2009, 02:02 PM	#32
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Sounds like you guys are really getting shafted. I mean, I can eat pork, keep my tool uncut, eat mixed grain, wear mixed fiber, etc, and it's all good. But if you got born of a Jewish mother, then you really have to jump through loops to get the same result... hmm, do you figure out that God is an antisemite? Our God..is a kind God. He made life much easier for you guys. Enjoy it and count your blessings you were not born a Jew. God would expect a lot more from you, if you had been. By the way, HOW MANY other religions actually set up rules for others to follow? this is why Judaism is an ok faith. not withstanding the whole Israel/Palestine issue, we really are pretty good to non-believers.
	Last edited by Thunder; 26th December 2009 at 02:03 PM.

26th December 2009, 02:39 PM	#33
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by parky76 .... By the way, HOW MANY other religions actually set up rules for others to follow? ... . . All of them that offer salvation.. if you accept it, and death if you don't.

26th December 2009, 02:51 PM	#34
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,829	Originally Posted by parky76 Our God..is a kind God. He made life much easier for you guys. Enjoy it and count your blessings you were not born a Jew. God would expect a lot more from you, if you had been. By the way, HOW MANY other religions actually set up rules for others to follow? this is why Judaism is an ok faith. not withstanding the whole Israel/Palestine issue, we really are pretty good to non-believers. Actually, AFAIK all non-abrahamic religions ever were very inclusive. E.g., if you didn't break the same 42 rules the Egyptians got, you could stand tall in front of Osiris and proclaim your innocence like any Egyptians, and earn the same afterlife. Historically actually a lot of wealthy people moved to Egypt in their old age just to be mummified and buried Egyptian style, although almost certainly most didn't fully convert to any flavour of it. E.g., Buddhism does not discriminate against non-Buddhists, and much less based on ethnicity. You can at least theoretically earn your Nirvana on your own, like the AHB did. E.g., Shintoism does not discriminate against non-Shinto, nor against non-japanese. Your spirit is just as good as any other spirit. E.g., Asatro never discriminated against foreigners or heathens. If you die bravely in battle, or otherwise in a way that shows no fear in face of death, you're as good as any Norse lad or lass to be one of Odin's Einherjar. Etc.

26th December 2009, 02:54 PM	#35
Dubbi Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 153	Parky, If you consider yiddishkeyt to be simply the first testament and Christianity to be a collection of the first and second testament, then yes - our shtick is more believable since we only make a subset of Christianity's claims. But then if you add the Kabbalah and the portions of the Talmud that aren't simply arguments dealing with things such as business ethics etc, then it's hard to tell; especially if you add on chassidic beliefs.
Dubbi Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 153