Continuation - The PG Film - Bob Heironimus and Patty

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

That gold/swindler guy story is interesting, but let's not forget that Patterson drew Patty before filming the PGF. And since he copied the design from a person who isn't a bigfoot researcher, the "Since he researched them, he'd know what one looks like" argument doesn't work. I think that would hold up pretty damn well in court...

[Óðinn]

Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster

That gold/swindler guy story is interesting, but let's not forget that Patterson drew Patty before filming the PGF. And since he copied the design from a person who isn't a bigfoot researcher, the "Since he researched them, he'd know what one looks like" argument doesn't work. I think that would hold up pretty damn well in court...

How come Roger didn't copy the Roe bigfoot's scrawny butt? And why would he think a big padded butt was a good idea? Did Roger have a big booty fetish?

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by Óðinn

And why would he think a big padded butt was a good idea?

To fill out the suit.

[kitakaze]

I like Óðinn. I think he is a swell guy. On top of that, we share the same city. Óðinn just stepped in it at the BFF. He said the JREF's Spektator is a hoaxer and literally put his mouth where his mouth is...

Originally Posted by Me @ BFF

Originally Posted by Gigantofootecus @ BFF

If ANYONE can rotate a static hand and produce this effect then I'll eat a bug. The "Doll's hand" example was a fraud. The poster bent the dolls fingers and he went suspiciously silent when I called him on it. Try to re-create it and see for yourself. Otherwise, that example is worse than useless.

Whoa! Spektator hoaxed us? I highly doubt that. He is an excellent skeptical researcher on a variety of topics. I find it very hard to believe. I can't link but you should go have a look at post # 1928 of the PGF 3 thread. WHat makes you sure he lied to us?

Originally Posted by Me @ BFF

Originally Posted by Gigantofootecus

I guess we can discuss this because the doll hand animation was posted here. I have nothing against Spektator and I don't think he thought it was a big deal. The hand animation was strictly for Sweaty, IMO. But the animation itself is dead simple. Take a pic, rotate the hand, take another pic. I spent a fair bit of time trying to reproduce the animation and failed miserably. I mean how many orientations could I have missed?

I'll still eat a bug if someone else reproduces the doll hand animation just like Spektator's. Plus I'll apologize to Spektator. I don't really care if Patty's finger bends. All I want are experiments I can verify and trust.

I am totally taking you up on this! :realhappy: I know Spektator and he's no liar. My brother owns a toy store. I will go to his shop, get a doll, and we'll do this live and direct. Do I get to choose the bug? We'll take a trip to the Victoria Bug Zoo and shoot it for youtube. Wait, that won't work. They won't let you eat any of the attractions. Pet store! OK, if I reproduce the doll hand shots, you eat a cricket. I've eaten crickets in Japan. You could do worse. What do you say, man? WOOOO! This is gonna be fun. :

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...c=29264&st=957

I PM'ed this to Spektator.

[tube]

I ate a cricket on my 30th birthday. It was remarkably tasteless, though slightly crunchy. The Enigma used to eat them every night on stage. No biggie.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by tube

I ate a cricket on my 30th birthday. It was remarkably tasteless, though slightly crunchy. The Enigma used to eat them every night on stage. No biggie.

I was eating them from a bag with beer. They were fried and dipped in a semi-sweet sauce. Kind of like caramel corn. Not bad at all. The BFF BH thread has been abruptly closed again. It may have been due to me taking up Óðinn/Gigantofootecus on the bug eating thing. I think they didn't realize the he and I get along quite well and thought it might be an attack of some kind. Or it could be something else all together. I have no idea. Oh well.

ETA: I was just informed by PM that the closing had nothing to do with me.

[tube]

Fried! I'm talking about live insects...

[wolftrax]

Carpenter ants are yummy as well.

[kitakaze]

Eating crickets for credits.

Best quote from video: "That one came back up."

[Spektator]

Hmm...I don't recall being "called out," but then there are periods when I'm busy and don't always check JREF.

For the record: the doll's my daughter's toy, and it has very rigid plastic fingers. I doubt if they could be bent without breaking. Anyway, in response to what at the time was Sweaty's obsessive mantra, "If the fingers bend, you must pretend," I took the doll, rested it on a towel rack in our bathroom with the arm almost straight down, took a photo, rotated the whole doll body slightly and moved the arm, and took the second photo. I doubt if it took more than a minute or two. In between, I didn't bend the fingers. The doll's hand is cupped, and by turning the body and raising the arm slightly, the cupping shows up somewhat more.

By the way, I didn't do this to "prove" that the moving fingers in the PGF film were an illusion--just that there might be an alternate explanation for the slight flexing that meant no one had to pretend anything. My daughter would have been really upset with me if I'd broken her doll's fingers, by the way!

I don't require anyone to eat a bug....

Edited to add: Would forks show that nothing was bent?
http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...416352&thumb=1
http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...416352&thumb=1

[Skeptical Greg]

I'm stunned that:

1. Giganto/Óðinn couldn't duplicate the finger flex illusion
2. coudn't see how it was accomplished

Eat a bug ? Not much confidence in your assertion that Spektator is a liar ..

How about $100 ?

If you lose, you donate to JREF and make an announcement at BFF, including an apology to Spektator..

If you win, I donate to the charity of your choice ..

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by Óðinn

How come Roger didn't copy the Roe bigfoot's scrawny butt? And why would he think a big padded butt was a good idea? ..............

Because that was how the butt was made on that particular suit ... ( ? )

[jhunter1163]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Because that was how the butt was made on that particular suit ... ( ? )

http://www.gatzstuff.com/MISC/buttcomp.gif

Looks more like ( ! ) to me.

[tube]

Originally Posted by Spektator

I don't require anyone to eat a bug....

No, I think eating insects is eminently suited with the general temperament associated with conversations about Bigfoot.

If I can't reproduce the "Lower Level Leg Lift" on demand, I'LL SMASH MY FINGER WITH A CAN OF CANNED FOOD!!!

Seriously though, Spektator, it's no fun to be falsely accused of being a liar. I was, on this very forum, regarding another ridiculously simply assertion, namely that Seattle Pottery Supply sells volcanic ash.

http://orgoneresearch.com/2009/10/19...-volcanic-ash/

Chronic lying and false accusation is a way of life in Bigfootery, and the Internet just makes it that much easier. It really speaks volumes about people's logic who claim in effect; "I can't reproduce the effect you are showing therefore you must be a LIAR."

[parnassus]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

ETA: I was just informed by PM that the closing had nothing to do with me.

so what was it? me?

[RayG]

Originally Posted by tube

If I can't reproduce the "Lower Level Leg Lift" on demand, I'LL SMASH MY FINGER WITH A CAN OF CANNED FOOD!!!

My wife thought I was crazy the first time I did that with a can.

RayG

[SweatyYeti]

spektator wrote:

Quote:

by turning the body and raising the arm slightly,

Since your 'doll hand illusion' required 2 changes in positioning, it doesn't even qualify as a potential explanation for Patty's bending fingers...since Patty's arm doesn't even appear to move at all....let alone in two different ways.


But...it was a nice try, anyway.

[kitakaze]

It's a good thing for Sweaty that Spek was only offering one possible explanation. Personally, I'm just fine with Bob's hand making the glove move.

Originally Posted by William Parcher

This thread needs the Bobby Patty Strut...

Now, I had a question that Sweaty is not going to want to touch with a 10ft pole...

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Let's just focus on the part that deals with Duane and Harvey Anderson. We know patterson was a stone-face liar. So who was lying - Roger Patterson, Greg Long, or Harvey and Duane Anderson?

[Vortigern99]

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti

Since your 'doll hand illusion' required 2 changes in positioning, it doesn't even qualify as a potential explanation for Patty's bending fingers...since Patty's arm doesn't even appear to move at all ....let alone in two different ways.

The figure itself is moving. Spektator's moving the camera and doll-arm approximates 1) the change in position relative to the camera and 2) the change in shadow and light resulting from this movement.

[Aepervius]

Originally Posted by Spektator

(SNIP)
Edited to add: Would forks show that nothing was bent?
http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...416352&thumb=1
http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...416352&thumb=1

I can't open the picture it says it is a 1*1 pixel gif when I click on the link.

[Spektator]

Originally Posted by Aepervius

I can't open the picture it says it is a 1*1 pixel gif when I click on the link.

Sorry! I'll see if I can try again.



I'd think the easiest way to test this is go out and get a doll and a camera and try for yourself. Probably a doll with cupped hands would work the best--maybe a china doll?

I'm not sure, but I think that any two discontinuous photos of a subject, if lined up and animated (a skill I don't have) would show some illusionary movement. That's the principle of moving-picture film, anyway. I've seen footage of Randi illustrating a similar illusion to show how Uri Geller convinces people that a pre-bent piece of silverware is still bending, by a slow turn of the handle so the bend becomes gradually more apparent.

[Skeptical Greg]

It's really rather simple after the fact .
We had gone round and round, here and at BFF about rubber gorilla hands, and how they could be made to flex without sophisticated prosthetics, then Eureka !
Spektator laid " Finger Flex Ken "on us and it was a kick in the nuts to all " Disney couldn't have done it for less than a million bucks " aficionados world-wide...

That was a great moment in PGF debunking ...

It's insane how PGF'ers go through all these gyrations to find a finger bending here, or a a toe flexing there, when Patty grabbing a rock or a stick and brandishing it, would have tilted the scales at least slightly the other way ..

[SweatyYeti]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

That was a great moment in PGF debunking ...

It's insane how PGF'ers go through all these gyrations to find a finger bending here,

Quote:

or a a toe flexing there..

....a calf muscle bulging here...






....hair standing-up over here......







Here are a couple of frames from the gif, alternated....showing the change in the degree of dark shading in the neck hair...(despite the bright sunlight shining directly down on the back/neck)...






Like Greg says.....it's just insane.

[The Shrike]

A question for Kitakaze - or anyone else who's done some digging into the people and places linked to PGF lore:

From a "follow the money" perspective, is there any one other than Bob H. who should be on a short list of potential Patty mimes?

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by The Shrike

A question for Kitakaze - or anyone else who's done some digging into the people and places linked to PGF lore:

From a "follow the money" perspective, is there any one other than Bob H. who should be on a short list of potential Patty mimes?

From the money angle? Well, Jerry Merritt had a an interest, financially...

Originally Posted by Me @ BFF

In the file that Vilma Radford kept the original contract, she also kept the receipt for a check for $200 that George Radford had lent to Jerry Merritt one week before Patterson came to Vilma for money. A note on the receipt states, "Contingent on 10% share of Big Foot contract." It was signed by Merritt.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...t&#entry594043

However, there really is no reason to think that Jerry was in the suit. You could really choose any of these guys...

[Correa Neto]

Hey, if its about making someone eat bugs science, I can replicate Spektator's results and post them tomorrow!
Way too easy...

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by Correa Neto

Hey, if its about making someone eat bugs science, I can replicate Spektator's results and post them tomorrow!
Way too easy...

For the sake of doing something gross for a laugh science, I offered to join Óðinn in the bug eating, but I really should have thought of this before; there's no way Óðinn would be up for doing a youtube vid involving a silly bet related to Bigfoot stuff. He simply would not want that kind of attention.

I think if 100% Spek is shown not to have hoaxed us, a gentlemanly apology is in order, but Óðinn, buddy, you don't have to get all Timon and Pumbaa with me.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti;5917249Here are a couple of frames from the gif, [I

alternated[/i]....showing the change in the degree of dark shading in the neck hair...(despite the bright sunlight shining directly down on the back/neck)...

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ckHairAG12.gif

You made me dust off Picard...

Quote:

Like Greg says.....it's just insane.

Sweaty calling something insane makes me all...



Sweaty, I bet a can make you turtle. Joyce and her husband and Joyce's alleged Bigfoot sighting vs Harvey and Duane Anderson and their alleged hoaxer Patterson sighting - let's rumble.

I lay heavy odds you will make a run for the border.

[William Parcher]

Quote:

You know who would be the perfect host/moderator?

LOL. Scott Herriott. He's one of the first on my list of "folks who pretend to believe in Bigfoot". He has so much fun acting like he and cry-eyes buddy filmed a Bigfoot in a mountain nest. Rock on, Scott.

The joke is on the true believer. Everybody laughs thinking there are a few people out there who really believe. Hello. Wake up. LOL!

[wolftrax]

Who would pretend to believe in bigfoot?

[William Parcher]

Originally Posted by wolftrax

Who would pretend to believe in bigfoot?

Oh... somebody who likes to have fun. Immerse themselves in the subculture of Bigfooters. Play the game with others who are also playing the game. The game of saying "I believe in Bigfoot" and everything that then goes, or could go, with it.

We could back up and ask a fundamental question. We both know that there are great numbers of Bigfoot hoaxers - from hoaxing material things to telling a fabricated encounter story. These are people who would say "I saw a Bigfoot" or "I found evidence of Bigfoot". They would, by default, go on to say that Bigfoot exists and that they believe in Bigfoot. This must be true because a person cannot say "I saw a Bigfoot but Bigfoot does not exist." So the initial question is - do Bigfoot hoaxers pretend to believe? Does it improve the hoax and the folktale to pretend to believe in Bigfoot?

We know almost nothing about Bigfoot hoaxers even though we suggest that they predominate Bigfootery (even outnumbering the innocently mistaken). We don't know if these hoaxers are skeptics or "denialists". My opinion is that most Bigfoot hoaxers do not truly think that Bigfoot exists at all. I would go on to say that I think a significant number of believers (who hoax nothing of consequence) are simply pretending to believe. They do this because it is their ticket to Bigfootery. It's how you get into the club. You join the club because it's fun, not because Bigfoot exists, or even probably exists. It doesn't exist - but it doesn't matter either. Just go for it.

[wolftrax]

Now wait a minute, Scott welcomes disbelief in the film, as well as skepticism. He doesn't expect anybody to accept it as evidence. He has been one of the most skeptical people of most, if not all, of the "evidence" of sasquatch long before you started even posting here at JREF. He's one of the rare people who have applied that skepticism with believers and more times than not has faced the usual attempts at ostracism that goes along with that, and yet his sense of humor and level headedness has risen above that.

So he's not fitting into what you have described here.

[parnassus]

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti

....a calf muscle bulging here...

Thanks for posting these. I will leave the fingers issues to others.

The heel of this long "foot" strikes first, then the rest of the boot section comes down quickly, leaving the flexible rubber "toe" section trailing behind in the air briefly, then flapping down like a fly swatter. The flapping toes are confirmation of Bob H.'s impression of the toes extending past the "boot" part of the the lower part of the suit. The effect of this long toe section is are not unlike the familiar effect of swim "fins" on the gait of a human, and can be seen in the funny movements of the feet and knees which are seen in the "skeleton walk" animation. Perhaps someone could post this.

Of course this gif also confirms that the subject exhibits heel strike, falsifying Meldrum's foolish contention that the subject is not a heel striker. I think that it was a considerable accomplishment for Bob H. to not stumble during this walk. Meldrum also tries to pass off the flapping of the distal "foot" as active muscle-generated dorsiflexion which he would attribute to the infamous "mid tarsal break." These "feet", were they real, would be better suited to an amphibian than to a giant hairy biped. To suggest that these "feet" would be desirable products of evolution is just stupid. Yes, Dr. Meldrum, I'm lookin at you.

This is a smoking gun, demonstrating that the feet of the subject are not natural appendages. They are huge flapping fakes.

Thanks, Swet.
more, on the 'muscle', later.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by William Parcher

LOL. Scott Herriott. He's one of the first on my list of "folks who pretend to believe in Bigfoot". He has so much fun acting like he and cry-eyes buddy filmed a Bigfoot in a mountain nest. Rock on, Scott.

The joke is on the true believer. Everybody laughs thinking there are a few people out there who really believe. Hello. Wake up. LOL!

Somewhere around here is Scott talking about the video. I'm undermotivated to go and find it right now. He was very forthright about it and made clear that he was more caught up in the other guy's emotional meltdown. Scott is into talking about Bigfoot, just as you and I are, yet he is simply more open, or simply open, if you will, to the possibility Bigfoot being a real animal. I'm glad he's around. I think he's one of the best people Bigfootery has.

Scott aside, I had a really interesting conversation with Phil Morris a few nights back. He thought it was loopy to think that Patterson ever actually believed in Bigfoot. I made the case that he most certainly did believe in Bigfoot, and all the hoaxing he did was to further the cause to look for the creature.

I'm interested to know what you think. Yes, I did change the subject. But we can talk about Scott in the "Anybody seen one?" thread if you like.

[parnassus]

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti

...bulging calf muscle...

Again, this makes no anatomic or physiologic sense if this were really the muscle of a biped. The gastrocnemius muscle, which is located here in primates, is relaxed at foot strike, not contracting. It contracts in the push-off stage of walking. Again, this is a smoking gun, signifying that this not actual contracting muscle.

This "bulge", from other views seems to have been sewn on or glued on to the fabric in the calf area. There are a number of bulges in various places which appear and disappear as the subject moves. Most of these result from the fact that the suit is not made of four-way stretch fabric, just as Bill Munns says. So when the subject moves, the suit bulges in various places. Bill, and or Meldrum, however, on the seeing the inevitable bulges which result from walking in something that is kind of like hip waders, say they are muscles, hernias, or, most bizarre, "flab." Munns then goes on to say that costume "flab" hadn't been invented yet, so therefore we are not looking at a suit. Bizarre.

Thanks for posting this Sweti, I hadn't seen it before. The more images you post, the more smoking guns.

[Vortigern99]

It's good to have someone with detailed bio-medical knowledge of human anatomy commenting on these images and questions. My understanding of human musculature includes their attachment points and placement on the body, but not the exact moments of contraction during movement. Your observations in this regard are much appreciated, Parnassus.

[rockinkt]

Originally Posted by parnassus

Again, I think you persist in hyperbole and putting words in my mouth. That is neither good debate nor is it particularly honest. You may be in law enforcement, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of your testimony is not given credence, if you conduct yourself in court in this same way.
Evidence and unequivocal proof are clearly not the same thing.
You are entitled to your opinion about the statements made by witnesses, but I can't agree with your conclusion.

One more try.
You are using forty year old recollections and non-tested statements of select people as if it somehow makes it a fact that Patterson was hoaxing Bigfoot around Yakima.
It is true that there is a lot of suppositions and insinuations - but there is no direct evidence that (edit) places Patterson making a print or dressing himself (or anyone else) in costume to fool people.

Do I believe that he hoaxed and was the reason for the sightings around Yakima? You bet. Does that make it a fact? Nope. Does it prove a pattern? You bet. But there is no way that anybody could get that evidence into a court of law.

Regarding your indignant purse swinging about twisting your words around - I was just being sarcastic at your bold statement about judges and juries regarding the evidence brought forward by Long about Patterson.

Like my post on the Rules of Evidence pointed out - the use of such evidence is the exception and must only be allowed under very specific conditions. The chances of you or anyone else getting such evidence into court in the US or Canada is pretty well zero.

I am getting weird vibes off you Parnassus. Somehow the ghost of LT seems to rear up its head when I read some of your posts...

[rockinkt]

Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster

That gold/swindler guy story is interesting, but let's not forget that Patterson drew Patty before filming the PGF. And since he copied the design from a person who isn't a bigfoot researcher, the "Since he researched them, he'd know what one looks like" argument doesn't work. I think that would hold up pretty damn well in court...

Rules of Evidence. Read them. Experience them. Understand them.

Perhaps a lecture on what Circumstantial Evidence actually is (like I had to do for Roger Knights on the BFF) rather than what is erroneously thought by the vast majority of people is in order.
Hint: It ain't links in a chain...

[rockinkt]

Actually - this crap about evidence and proof is all a tempest in a teapot on this board and I should stop trying to help people understand the finer points.

Patterson was a crook and liar and a hoaxer. That is my opinion and that of the people I seem to be at odds with in this thread - which is a little weird.

My reasoning was that I was just trying to help with what I knew would be the arguments bought up in relation Kitakaze's posts on the BFF and within bigfootery in general.
Some people got that - others didn't.

I would be happy to discuss the minutiae of investigation and evidence and law with those who still have a bone to pick - but let's take it to PM.

[kitakaze]

I've started my first thread at the BFF...

Bob vs Bob Internet Radio Show - Let's make it happen!

Will it happen? Can it happen? And if so, will it be a Rumble in the Valley? A Bungle in the Jnugle? Hold on to your butts, and let's ride this crazy horse into town.