Vimanas

Do anyone know something about "brilliant jet-propelled flying machines" mentioned in the sacred hindu books?. They supposedly throw rays and atomic bombs.

[garys_2k]

No, I don't know much about them, but I'll wager that they do NOT mention "jet propelled" or "atomic" bombs. "Rays," maybe, but not likely as we know them. Did they include discussions on conservation of momentum and the internal operations of mass-energy conversion weapons? Do they discuss "rays" as part of the electromagnetic spectrum or, maybe, subatomic particles?

I suspect that some old writings have been reinterpreted to fit modern technology. I wonder what someone a hundred years ago would've thought of it, or, by extension, why should it be assumed that we are now at the perfect point in technological development to properly understand those writings? Most likely is that they were written in either a deliberately obscure way that seemed "Godlike" at the time, or in a way that made perfect sense to them.

Yeah. We were discusing about a page in spanish, that was presented as proof of ancient planes and lasers and nukes.
My first question was if it was a reliable translation fron sanskrit, and then they choked.In fact it was a interpretation of an english tranlstation of a translation...well, you get the picture.

[Goshawk]

Disclaimer: I don't speak Sanskrit, and I'm not a Hindu scholar, and I'm not that familiar with the Ramayana.

The words that the woowoo websites translate as "the flying spaceship Puspaka" are translated on the non-woowoo websites as either "aerial vehicle" or "flying palace" or "aerial car" or "divine chariot". None of them seem to think it might be a rocketship or spaceship.

http://www.divyajivan.org/ramanavami/nam_ramayana.htm

Quote:

pushhpakayaanaarohana ram

O Rama, Thou who did’st ascend the aerial vehicle (Puspaka, for returning to Ayodhya)!

http://free.freespeech.org/india100/vramayana.htm

Quote:

At last, traveling in the flying palace Puspaka, which Vibhisana had given him, Rama returns to Ayodhya where, the period of his exile now over, his long-delayed coronation is performed."

http://home.att.net/~s-prasad/prcm.htm

Quote:

I unceasingly extol Sri Rama, the praiseworthy lord of Sita, the chief of Raghu's line - rich in splendour, clad in yellow robes, lotus-eyed, ever-propitious, holding a bow and arrow in His hands, mounted on an aerial car named Puspaka and accompanied by a host of vanaras and waited upon by His brother Lakshmana."

http://ignca.nic.in/ks_41025.htm

Quote:

It is interesting to note that both Ravana and Kubera, the two sons of the sage Visrava, and both of whom are known as Vaisravana, are associated with the celebrated divine chariot known as Puspaka, as per the Kiskindhya-Kanda of the Ramayana.

I think it's important to remember that flying chariots are not unique to the Ramayana--a flying flaming chariot takes the Prophet Elijah up to heaven in the Old Testament. So I think that "flying car" or "chariot" makes the most sense, although "flying palace" makes sense, too, especially since there's a flying palace in some versions of Aladdin. But I think it's kind of a stretch to turn this description of a flying palace into an interstellar alien spaceship.
http://www.atlantisquest.com/Pushpaka.html

But if you're a woowoo, obviously it's much more fun to translate it as "spaceship".



Fixed typo and added link.

I think far more pondersome is the ancient...Aztec, I think, drawings and stories and instructions and such of what seems to apparently be a machine with a man inside of that is controlling it.

Then again, it doesn't really seem all that "out there" that people who's key source of entertainment consisted of story telling managed to come up with the idea of machines.

[Soapy Sam]

I think it was Mayan. It's a long time since I read von Daniken.

I believe his interpretation has been ridiculed by Mayan scholars, but I'm sorry to say I cannot recall where I read this.

[Checkmite]

Archaeology...my bag.

The artifact in question is the sarcophagus lid of one Lord Pacal at Pelenque. He was Mayan.



Von Daniken asserted that the inscription depicts an astronaut in a spaceship, his limbs operating various inergonomically placed controls.



Actually, it depicts the Mayan leader at the moment of his death, falling into the jaws of an underworld monster (much as the sun does each day) - which, in the Mayan fashion, implies that (like the sun) Pacal will rise again. Above him is the sky, and growing out of his chest is the World Tree, a very important part of Mayan theology. This sarcophagus was discovered in the Temple of Inscriptions, which Pacal had built during his rule at Palenque.

Typical of Von Daniken's inconsistency, you'll notice that although all other drawings and carvings Von Daniken calls astronauts are called such because of their "obvious space suits and helmets", in this picture Pacal isn't wearing anything special - in fact, he's dressed exactly the way he was really buried, lavishly decorated with jade, but elsewise bearing a lot of flesh - hardly appropriate for an astronaut. His body is also sticking out of the alleged "rocket".

[Checkmite]

I'm sorry...discussing Mayan sarcophagus covers is hardly on topic. Allow me to work back to the topic by placing this item in context with the discussion.

Anytime we "learn" a new ancient language, and are able to finally read its texts, we often discover that many of our suppositions about that race were incorrect - such was the case with the Maya, who were thought to be a gentle race ruled by a benevolent priestly-class, until our eventual translation of their lyrics revealed them to be warlike and militaristic, with nearly every wall caption bragging about the bloody victories of ruthless kings.

Of the ancient Indians, contrarily, we know comparatively little - and the translation of religiously themed texts has added nearly nothing to our understanding of the peoples' daily lives. When we find and translate articles like the Ramayana, and the Mahab'harata, we find stories of great wars fought with and amongst the gods, but the only mention we have of the common man is in the edicts of the gods, explaining how things should be. But we know we simply can't draw conclusions based exclusively on religious writings - it would be like trying to figure out what life in the United States was like by reading the Bible. This lack of knowledge allows room for people like Von Daniken to offer their typically off-the-wall speculations, without fear of being called off-the-wall because nobody else knows any better anyway.

The Von Danikens of the world are themselves an item of interest. Knowing practically nothing about any given civilization, these people come in, look at typical wall carvings and inscriptions, and draw fanciful conclusions based on nothing but fanciful personal interpretation. Von Daniken's assessment of Pacal's sarcophagus cover is a typical example. When he says "it must be a rocket", what he's really saying is that he has no idea just what the hell it is. Had he been familiar with the Sun Cycles, the World Tree, and related Mayan concepts, he wouldn't have reached the same conclusions. And since the average Joe knows as little about Mayan theology as Von Daniken, they can hardly argue against him.

***

The "advanced technology" of the ancient Indians is inferred by some through interpretation of their translated Sanskrit writings, particularly the Ramayana, and the Mahab'harata, which (as previously mentioned) describe great battles between gods and men with special powers. All manner of magical weapons are used - basically starting off with small missiles and arrows, and moving up to bigger and more powerful missiles and arrows. Some of the weapons are spectacular in their scope and power, "shaking the supports of the earth" and filling "all directions with smoke".

Finally the gods get really pissed, and the use of divine power that would fill the sky "with the radiance of a thousand suns at once", and would destroy all the universe, is threatened. "I am become Shiva (death)," the god warns, "destroyer of worlds." Physicist Robert Oppenheimer was allegedly reminded of this quote upon witnessing the first atomic blast. Taken out of context, the relevant excerpt appears to refer to a physical weapon, which - thanks to Oppenheimer's comparison - must be an atomic weapon of some sort, many assert. This led to the scouring of these ancient texts for references that could readily be compared to modern technology.

The initiator of this "movement" is Charles Berlitz, a linguist who chases the paranormal in his spare time. Berlitz has found and expounded references in the Sanskrit text - such as "magical flying chariots and palaces" (your Vimanas) - typical mythological story-filler - and explained that such references cannot be interpreted as anything other than descriptions of airplanes, tactical missiles, and other technological wonders. That no evidence in the form of scrap metal or charred pieces of airplanes exists to substantiate such assertions means no nevermind to Berlitz - who seems to have developed Daniken's penchant for interpretation without fact.

Until we find more evidence which helps us determine better the daily life of ancient India, we will have to put up with the Berlitzes and Von Danikens. But on its face, written descriptions that could possibly refer to flying machines are nothing approaching evidence.

[gmol]

Great post,
I have actually been looking for the exact reference to the stories where Vedic mythology's weapons and magic are elaborated on..

I heared there were invisible caps etc.
I would be a lot of fun to compare to what we see in other genres of fantasy literature...

If you have any (references that is) please pass them on...

The Pushpaka Vimana mentioned in the Ramayana is originally the 'evil' Ravana's chariot which is supposed to be capable of flying through the air.

Around the mid-twentieth century Hindu fundamentailist nationalist forces began to cunduct 'serious studies' of the truths in ancient texts...after all vedic texts on mathematics were found to be quite reliable.

Anecdotes abound about some scholar/'scientist' or other from some obscure university who happened to come across some ancient text later (conveniently) lost or misplaced which gave detailed descriptions on how to build a working model. There was even one story that a working model was built. The ending is the same,all proof was wiped out in some disaster.

Von Dainiken and his ilk fuelled this deceit and spread it to the west where stories of the magical mystical east with vast ghidden secrets were already making the rounds.

In truth? The pushpaka Vimana may have been metaphorical. Meaning a really fast and magnificent chariot. As is Ravana's ten heads and hundred arms. The real Ravana of history was quite a talented multifaceted king. A great statesman, musician, scholar, poet, artist etc....a renaissance man of sorts.