You middle-class dirtbag!

[Jon_in_london]

One thing really confuses me.

Since when did it become a Crime-Against-Political-Correctness (CRAPCO) to be middle-class?

Obviously, its been a CRAPO to be both white and male for some time time now, but to be middle class? Why is it OK to be working class or even an upper-class inbred toff but not OK to be a hardworking, taxpaying middle-classser?

As an example, recently someone (having solved all the other problems in the world including hunger, cancer and war), complained that school coursework was unfair because it favoured middle-class pupils who might be able to get help from their parents. I assume this means that working class parents are too busy reading The Sun and drinking Tenants Extra to help their kids? And what about the toff parents? Are they too busy hunting foxes and shooting whats left of our wildlife? Or are they just too inbred?

Any advice in this regard would be appreciated.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
One thing really confuses me.

Since when did it become a Crime-Against-Political-Correctness (CRAPCO) to be middle-class?

Obviously, its been a CRAPO to be both white and male for some time time now, but to be middle class? Why is it OK to be working class or even an upper-class inbred toff but not OK to be a hardworking, taxpaying middle-classser?

As an example, recently someone (having solved all the other problems in the world including hunger, cancer and war), complained that school coursework was unfair because it favoured middle-class pupils who might be able to get help from their parents. I assume this means that working class parents are too busy reading The Sun and drinking Tenants Extra to help their kids? And what about the toff parents? Are they too busy hunting foxes and shooting whats left of our wildlife? Or are they just too inbred?

Any advice in this regard would be appreciated.

I assume the point was made in the context of coursework forming a higher proportion of the final grade than previously? If so I think I heard a discussion on it recently (on radio 5?).

My understanding is that the point of giving kids a grade is to measure their performance/ability. Therefore a system that allows the grade to be influenced by factors other than the kids performance/ability does not necessarily achieve its aims.

"Middle class" seemed to be used as shorthand for "parents who take an active interest in their kids education" more than anything else.

The other factor discussed was the number of websites offering downloadable essays or essay writing services. I did a google on a history related topic recently and about the first 25 results were from sites offering to write an essay on the topic for me as opposed to those containing information on the subject.

The argument was essentially that the coursework system did not produce a meaningful evaluation of the kids ability in the subject, as opposed to the ability of their parents or the kids ability to download information. On that basis it was suggested it should be scrapped and an old fashioned end of year exam based system put back. As a bit of an old fogie, I agreed with that.

[BillyTK]

That's so bourgeois of you not to know this, jon!

It became open season on the middle classes when New Labour decided they should carry the tax burden of the country, but in the pc realm, being middle-class has always been that extra qualifier for stigmatising white males. And why not? It's certainly taken the heat off of blacks, dogs and irish.

Generally working class parents tend to be less supportive of their offsprings' academic endeavours for a wide range of reasons, ranging from their perceived inadequacies from their own schooling, through to occupational demands such as shift working, through to a self-defeating kind of inverse snobbery because they don't want their kids to do well academically (this list is neither exclusive nor extensive). These reasons have been known for decades, as well as other stuff about class differences in language (see Basil Bernstein's stuff on elaborated and restricted codes, for instance).

As for toffs, I suspect a genetic element, but as toffs have as little to do with their kids as possible and pack them off to boarding school asap anyway, it's not really the same problem as it is for working class kids. Also toff kids spend all their time "bunking off" to go underage drinking with their toff pals, and having "ganja" parties in their mansions whilst mater and pater are out of the country on a six month tour of the world. As research shows, working class kids don't "bunk off" to go underage drinking and dope smoking, as they much prefer joyriding, unprotected sex and smoking crack cocaine.

[The Don]

Ah yes, the old level playing field fallacy.

Everybody will be free to reach their full potential so long as we have a level playing field. In order to do this we have to lower the playing field to the lowest common denominator - this is significantly below the water table and so everyone is just sloshing around in the mire.

It's much easier to complain about middle class parents being too involved (b.t.w. I know a few middle class members who don't help their kids with their homework, some because they cannot be bothered, some because they are simply not knowledgeable enough (what used to be called thick)) than attempting in engage the vast majority of parents who seem not to give a ***** about their kinds. For goodness sakes, you had the little b@$t@rds, the least you can do is look after them.

It all goes back to that peculiarly British thing, the good old fashioned class system - supported by the toffs. Whilst the working class are safely subjugated and the upper class are noble, the middle class are commiting the ultimate sin, attempting to encroach on upper class ground.

In a society where the only prestige worth having is achieved though an accident of birth, it is seen as somehow vulgar to wish to better oneself through hard work. We're quite happy with accidents of birth or sheer dumb luck (because we can't beat ourselves up about our lack of achievement) but hte last thing we want to see is someone we consider less able that ourselves succeeding by doing something we're well able to do (i.e. working hard).

There is no immediate end in sight for this kind of attitude because it permiates through the whole of society. Nick Faldo was viewed suspiciously because he was very rather than incredibly talented and worked hard on his golf game as a result he won. The Germans were lambasted because the DARED to practise taking penalty kicks (how typical of Johnny Foreigner). People in the media are proud of their stupidity.


Oh, toffs don't have to help their kids becuase they are away at private school and aer doing "prep". Any working class parent who helps their kids is immediately classified as middle class aspirational and tarred with the middle class brush.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Don
Ah yes, the old level playing field fallacy.

Everybody will be free to reach their full potential so long as we have a level playing field. In order to do this we have to lower the playing field to the lowest common denominator - this is significantly below the water table and so everyone is just sloshing around in the mire.

It's much easier to complain about middle class parents being too involved (b.t.w. I know a few middle class members who don't help their kids with their homework, some because they cannot be bothered, some because they are simply not knowledgeable enough (what used to be called thick)) than attempting in engage the vast majority of parents who seem not to give a ***** about their kinds. For goodness sakes, you had the little b@$t@rds, the least you can do is look after them.

It all goes back to that peculiarly British thing, the good old fashioned class system - supported by the toffs. Whilst the working class are safely subjugated and the upper class are noble, the middle class are commiting the ultimate sin, attempting to encroach on upper class ground.

In a society where the only prestige worth having is achieved though an accident of birth, it is seen as somehow vulgar to wish to better oneself through hard work. We're quite happy with accidents of birth or sheer dumb luck (because we can't beat ourselves up about our lack of achievement) but hte last thing we want to see is someone we consider less able that ourselves succeeding by doing something we're well able to do (i.e. working hard).

There is no immediate end in sight for this kind of attitude because it permiates through the whole of society. Nick Faldo was viewed suspiciously because he was very rather than incredibly talented and worked hard on his golf game as a result he won. The Germans were lambasted because the DARED to practise taking penalty kicks (how typical of Johnny Foreigner). People in the media are proud of their stupidity.


Oh, toffs don't have to help their kids becuase they are away at private school and aer doing "prep". Any working class parent who helps their kids is immediately classified as middle class aspirational and tarred with the middle class brush.

Good rant!

Couldn't you argue however that a system which allows your grades to be dependent on the abilities of your parents (like say giving the kid credit towards their final grade because their parent wrote the coursework essay for them) is in fact perpetuating the "accident of birth" attitude (same kid born to different parents gets different grade based on ability of parents) whereas one based on the kids own work (ie an end of year exam) is a better illustration of a system designed to reward hard work?

[Darat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet


Good rant!

Couldn't you argue however that a system which allows your grades to be dependent on the abilities of your parents (like say giving the kid credit towards their final grade because their parent wrote the coursework essay for them) is in fact perpetuating the "accident of birth" attitude (same kid born to different parents gets different grade based on ability of parents) whereas one based on the kids own work (ie an end of year exam) is a better illustration of a system designed to reward hard work?

But almost the same can be said for exams; if a parent spends time just coaching the kid to the exclusion of everything else I'm sure the kid will get a better grade, at least in a limited number of subjects.

I think the issue here is the assumption that it will only be "middle class" kids that benefit from this. Why is the assumption made that "working class" parents can't or wont provide the same level of support for their children?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat


But almost the same can be said for exams; if a parent spends time just coaching the kid to the exclusion of everything else I'm sure the kid will get a better grade, at least in a limited number of subjects.

I think the issue here is the assumption that it will only be "middle class" kids that benefit from this. Why is the assumption made that "working class" parents can't or wont provide the same level of support for their children?

I don't think it is the same at all. One measures the ability of the child and one the ability of the parent/website providing the essay. Coaching may well enable the kid to get a better grade, but surely that is down to the work the kid has done (even if forced to do so by their parents). In the circumstances where the kid has more ability in a certain subject I have no problem with them getting a better grade, whether that ability is because their parents have coached them for 12 hours every day or because they have a natural flair for the subject. The problem referred to with the current system is that the coursework is not done by the kid after coaching, but is in fact done by the parent, so that the kid gets a higher grade.

For the exam system to suffer the same weakness, there would need to be the possibility of the parent completing the exam instead of the child.

As mentioned, middle class is lazy shorthand for "parents who take an active interest in their kids education". Nothing more.

[BillyTK]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
As mentioned, middle class is lazy shorthand for "parents who take an active interest in their kids education". Nothing more.

Although you could argue that to some extent it's a defining characteristic of being a middle class parent. Another characteristic is having the resources (such as time, money or parent's confidence in their own educational abilities) to devote to their children's education. Which, of course, is not to say that no working class parents take an interest in or involve themselves with their children's education.

Possibly diverging here, but one of the things that riles me is the way that the education system has become increasingly obsessed with academic achievement at the expense of vocational skills; imo, being a good plumber or carpenter is just as valid an achievement as completing a degree and in fact, considering the current government's obsession with increasing participation in higher education, the former is probably of more value to society than the latter.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyTK

Although you could argue that to some extent it's a defining characteristic of being a middle class parent. Another characteristic is having the resources (such as time, money or parent's confidence in their own educational abilities) to devote to their children's education.

Not sure about these - what if both parents are, say, junior doctors working 80 hours a week for the NHS. They are unlikely to have a lot of time or money to spend on the kids, but would normally be considered middle class.

[The Don]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet


Not sure about these - what if both parents are, say, junior doctors working 80 hours a week for the NHS. They are unlikely to have a lot of time or money to spend on the kids, but would normally be considered middle class.

They'd be:

- too tired to copulate
- on incompatible shifts

They'd never get to breed

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Don


They'd be:

- too tired to copulate
- on incompatible shifts

They'd never get to breed

Yeah, but they're doctors so she can just nip in for some IVF on her teabreak.

[Jon_in_london]

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyTK
Possibly diverging here, but one of the things that riles me is the way that the education system has become increasingly obsessed with academic achievement at the expense of vocational skills; imo, being a good plumber or carpenter is just as valid an achievement as completing a degree and in fact, considering the current government's obsession with increasing participation in higher education, the former is probably of more value to society than the latter.

Possibly of more value to the plumber too. Graduates get paid peanuts. People know they can hire graduates and pay them squiddly-diddly because they know they are desperate for anything.

The abolishing of the polytechnics and converting them into uiversities has been a monumental cock-up.

[Tmy]

I think by "middle class" they implied "educated" parents. Parents who have the educational backgroud to assist their kids with homework and such.

I can sort of relate to what they are saying. My parents were immigrants and english was their 2nd language. They were far from lazy people who had no interest in my education. They both worked (my dad had 2 jobs for as long as I can remember) and they stressed the importance of good grades. (heaven help me if I came home with bad grades) BUT they really didnt have the educational background to help me with my homework. I'd say by 4th-5th grade my homework was outside their ability. Really, what are a couple of blue collar working immigrants going to know about the Tea Pot Dome scandle???

Its not that they are bad parents, far from it. But from no real fault of their own they didnt have those skills to assist me in my work.

We all know how parents can overly "help" with their kids work. We an all remeber they science fair when some kids had crazy projects that you know their dad put together

[The Don]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet


Couldn't you argue however that a system which allows your grades to be dependent on the abilities of your parents (like say giving the kid credit towards their final grade because their parent wrote the coursework essay for them) is in fact perpetuating the "accident of birth" attitude (same kid born to different parents gets different grade based on ability of parents) whereas one based on the kids own work (ie an end of year exam) is a better illustration of a system designed to reward hard work?

It rather depends. A system based on exams works rather well for someone like myself (bone idle but able to commit large volumes of data to short term memory). I can do naff all for most of the year and in a flurry of revision can perform well in exams (at least that 's the way it was when I last took an exam back in the middle ages).

Interstingly this type of system favours risk takers which is why boys proprtionally score better onder this system.

A course work based system rewards those people who can deliver in the long term and favours the orgainised but risk averse.

Working in isolation is (in my experience) quite rare. In "real" life a lot of activity is long-term and co-operative. A course work based system probably prepares people better for this. It probably also helps with long term information retention.

I suppose a combination of the two gives the best indications.

[The Don]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Possibly of more value to the plumber too. Graduates get paid peanuts. People know they can hire graduates and pay them squiddly-diddly because they know they are desperate for anything.

The abolishing of the polytechnics and converting them into uiversities has been a monumental cock-up.

Exactly, 46% of school leavers go on to futher education.

This smacks of cargo cultism. "Graduates on average earn x% more than non-graduates, if we were all garduates we'd all earn x% more" seems to be the mantra.

Of course the truth is that smart/hard-working/lucky people (who are probably proprtionally over represented in the graduate population) earn x% more than the rest.

The world can probably do without media studues graduates who achieve ordinary degrees from relatively undemanding universities. We can always use good plumbers.

[BillyTK]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
I think by "middle class" they implied "educated" parents. Parents who have the educational backgroud to assist their kids with homework and such.

No, they mean the middle class. Ah, the vagaries of the British class system... we could spend ages defining this one, but The Don summarises it pretty well:

Quote:

It all goes back to that peculiarly British thing, the good old fashioned class system - supported by the toffs. Whilst the working class are safely subjugated and the upper class are noble, the middle class are commiting the ultimate sin, attempting to encroach on upper class ground.

Anyway, whilst education is a defining characteristic in class (for instance, anyone who's got a degree is de facto middle class), it's not an exclusive characteristic. The whole middle class/working class definition could be argued to be misnomic, in that anyone who works for a boss is working class. However, another defining, albeit not exclusive characteristic of the middle class is aspiration; that your children will be more (materially) successful than you.

Disclaimer: Middle class children can end up in the gutter too.

[Tmy]

In Mass we have a strong system of public vocational high schools. So kids who dont want to go to college can graduate with a valuable skill. Ive noticed that other states dont have similar programs. Too bad cause I think its very successful.

[Jon_in_london]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Don

This smacks of cargo cultism. "Graduates on average earn x% more than non-graduates, if we were all garduates we'd all earn x% more" seems to be the mantra.

Yes, and thats whats making the title 'graduate' worthless. Back when maybe 5% went to uni then a graduate was someone special. Nowadays its like 'ho-hum so you have a degree? so does the rest of the council housing estate'

I also believ there should be severe pruning of degree subjects so that you can get a degree is rubbish like 'media studies' anymore.

Universities to be bastions of academic excellence.

Polys to give vocational training.

Neither should be degree-mills.

[The Don]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

I also believe there should be severe pruning of degree subjects so that you can get a degree is rubbish like 'media studies' anymore.

Fees to the rescue ?

If British Industry could be educated to offer bursaries to students to study courses of value to that industry students could leave Uni. debt free.

This may drive demand in the right direction

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Yes, and thats whats making the title 'graduate' worthless. Back when maybe 5% went to uni then a graduate was someone special. Nowadays its like 'ho-hum so you have a degree? so does the rest of the council housing estate'

Got to agree with you here, Jon. And I'd also extend that worry to the current situation with A-Levels and GCSEs - some subjects are perilously close to achieving 100% pass rates. It doesn't matter whether it's because kids are brighter and working harder or because the exams are easier - it's still a devaluation if everybody has one.

At the same time, the UK is suffering a chronic shortage of plumbers. Really.

Bring back apprenticeships, that's what I say.

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Don


Fees to the rescue ?

If British Industry could be educated to offer bursaries to students to study courses of value to that industry students could leave Uni. debt free.

This may drive demand in the right direction

Ach, fees are just a secret mechanism for reintroducing grants without scaring off converted Tories. Don't worry about them.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Don


It rather depends. A system based on exams works rather well for someone like myself (bone idle but able to commit large volumes of data to short term memory). I can do naff all for most of the year and in a flurry of revision can perform well in exams (at least that 's the way it was when I last took an exam back in the middle ages).

Interstingly this type of system favours risk takers which is why boys proprtionally score better onder this system.

A course work based system rewards those people who can deliver in the long term and favours the orgainised but risk averse.

Working in isolation is (in my experience) quite rare. In "real" life a lot of activity is long-term and co-operative. A course work based system probably prepares people better for this. It probably also helps with long term information retention.

I suppose a combination of the two gives the best indications.

There are certainly some good arguments that a coursework based system gives a "fairer" picture rather than an exam snapshot. The problem is how to operate such a system yet avoid the risk of plagiarism (website essays), substitution (parents writing essays) and inconsistency.

Course work only prepares people better for real life if they actually do the work themselves. This is far more difficult to achieve than it is to check that people sit the exams themselves.

This report highlights some of the problems of consistently grading coursework:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education...er/1647523.stm

And this one refers to a teacher told to write essays on behalf of students by her head teacher so the school received more funds:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ts/1980220.stm

To me the benefit of an exam is that everyone sits the same paper, which is then marked on a set scale across the country which tries to minimise the subjectivity of grading. The markers are independent and have no knowledge of whose paper they are marking, nor any incentive based on the results.

Contrast that with coursework, which is marked by the class teacher in full knowledge of whose work it is. The class teacher has an obvious bias to report high results and the school has similar pressures. Factor in the plagiarism and passing off risks and I think the system is fundamentally flawed.

[Giz]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet


Contrast that with coursework, which is marked by the class teacher in full knowledge of whose work it is. The class teacher has an obvious bias to report high results and the school has similar pressures. Factor in the plagiarism and passing off risks and I think the system is fundamentally flawed.

The obvious conclusion would be that if continuous assessment must be used then it should be done in controlled conditions (such as in class). Otherwise it has to be abandoned (unfortunate but what else an you do?).

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Giz



The obvious conclusion would be that if continuous assessment must be used then it should be done in controlled conditions (such as in class). Otherwise it has to be abandoned (unfortunate but what else an you do?).

Which is just an exam by another name is it not?

[Giz]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet


Which is just an exam by another name is it not?

But spead over several sessions, reference matireals available, a more relaxed environment. It should still benefit the dedicated plodders who are disadvanteged by exams.

[Matabiri]

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyTK
Possibly diverging here, but one of the things that riles me is the way that the education system has become increasingly obsessed with academic achievement at the expense of vocational skills; imo, being a good plumber or carpenter is just as valid an achievement as completing a degree and in fact, considering the current government's obsession with increasing participation in higher education, the former is probably of more value to society than the latter.

Plumbers are worth considerably more to society, judging by what a good one can earn...

[Matabiri]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Don


They'd be:

- too tired to copulate
- on incompatible shifts

They'd never get to breed

Medical couples procreate through the use of very convincing notes stuck to the fridge.

I'd guess it's because the middle classes haven't found an effective way of fighting back yet. The working class can say, "We're poor! Don't pick on us!" and the rich can afford decent accountants or live abroad.

If it's a CRAPCO to be middle-class, an awful lot of PCAs (PC arse'oles) must hate themselves. Or not thought it through properly...

[phildonnia]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

...
Any advice in this regard would be appreciated.

My advice, for what it's worth:
If you find yourself accused of "CRAPCO", just ignore it. The different layers of social sediment have been talking trash for millenia, probably egged on by whatever political rivals happen to be fighting for power at that moment.

At least it's not actually a crime (yet).

[BillyTK]

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri


Plumbers are worth considerably more to society, judging by what a good one can earn...

W-e-e-e-l-l, becoming a plumber is worth more to society because there's not enough of 'em, but the scarcity of plumbers is a bad thing to society (and specifically to my wallet) because they can charge so damn much!

Quote:

If it's a CRAPCO to be middle-class, an awful lot of PCAs (PC arse'oles) must hate themselves. Or not thought it through properly...

Or figured out what's wrong with being middle class and adapted accordingly...

[Matabiri]

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyTK
Or figured out what's wrong with being middle class and adapted accordingly...

"I am not middle-class!"
"Yes you are."
"Prove it!"
"Umm..."

"Middle-class:
Definition:
[n] _the social class between the lower and upper classes
[adj] _occupying a socioeconomic position intermediate between those of the lower classes and the wealthy"
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/middle-class

You're right. Seems a perfectly simple thing to not be to me...

"Don't categorise me!"

[NullPointerException]

PC and accepting/kindness are a propogation of the media not the society intended to make the nice believe that their efforts are appreciated. Most people are evil and in the state of nature would pause no longer than the time it takes to reload between shooting your daughter and the rest of your kin. Men are only interested in sex, women are only interested in aesthetics, and the rich all suck and produce nothing, takin advantage of the fact that controlling wealth allows them to avoid generating any more of their own.

[BillyTK]

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri


"I am not middle-class!"
"Yes you are."
"Prove it!"
"Umm..."

"Middle-class:
Definition:
[n] _the social class between the lower and upper classes
[adj] _occupying a socioeconomic position intermediate between those of the lower classes and the wealthy"
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/middle-class

You're right. Seems a perfectly simple thing to not be to me...

"Don't categorise me!"

And according to hyperdictionary, lower class is:

Quote:

1. [n] the social class lowest in the social hierarchy
2. [adj] occupying the lowest socioeconomic position in a society

and therefore wins the award for stating the bleedin' obvious.

[Shane Costello]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london:
I also believ there should be severe pruning of degree subjects so that you can get a degree is rubbish like 'media studies' anymore.

Hee hee, this reminds of when our neighbour's mother came to visit a few years ago. During the course of a family getogether she inquired of one of her in-laws whether she had any children. An affirmative answer was accompanied with an additional remark about how well one of the daughters was progressing "in college".

"That's nice, and what is she studying?"

"Leisure" was the reply.

My neighbour's mother was an older lady unacquainted with the proliferation and scope of present day degree courses (her own daughters had all become teachers and nurses). Her in-law's visible pride in her daughter's improbable course of study had her in fits!

[Rat]

Last time I looked up 'middle class' (and I'm too lazy to pick up the dictionary in front of me), it meant something along the lines of 'professional people and their immediate families'. Professional here meaning doctors, lawyers, etc.

I'm traditionally middle class (I was brought up that way), but I chose not to go to university. Downwardly-mobile is my somewhat cumbersome middle name.

Cheers,
Rat.

[phildonnia]

I had learned in high-school that "Lower-class" meant slaves and serfs, "upper-class" meant nobility, and "middle-class" was everyone else. By these definitions, 99.9% of UKians could probably be described as "middle-class".

[Rat]

Quote:

middle class the social group between the upper and working classes, including professional and business workers and their families

Cheers,
Rat.