Bible Contradictions, Hypocrisy, and Deprogramming

corplinx · 26th February 2003, 12:00 PM

I think the reluctance of Xians to accept errors or contradictions in the Bible is a simple case of ignorance and breaking one of their own commandments (idolatry). Simply put, for lack of a golden calf many Xians have substituted a book.

My mother believed the bible was the infallible word of God but slowly I have tried to corrupt her.

"Mom, don't you know the Bible was assembled by people with their own agenda, they left some great books out"

For some reason, Xians also have a warped definition of "inspiration". When they read "about the inspired word of god" they imagine God possessing someone and telling them the words to write or taking control of their hand. If someone wants to see what Biblical inspiration is, I usually tell them to read the Song of Songs. "Is her hair really a bunch of horses? No. Its poetic device. Its inspired writing, not the result of godly possession".

Mostly it comes down to plain hypocrisy though. Xians cling to their Bibles as if those pages are the verbatim word of God and not an assembled collection. If Paul knew that people would take his advice to budding churches as the literal word of god, he probably would have left some major disclaimers in the beginnings of his letters. "Warning: these are just my thoughts, I could be wrong, I am sure in 2000 years you will have come up with new insights and rules for running a church".

I always hate to talk about the Bible with family members because even people close to you have knee jerk reactions. I find the best remedy is to start out talking about how the bible was assembled. You also have to be careful to mention that their faith should not depend on a leatherbound volume of printed pages. I find that insight alone helps people away from "Bible Idolatry".

It also helps if you don't challenge their belief in deity while trying to get them to think outside the box about the Bible. Be respectful, nice, and cordial. Hopefully you can shine some light into the darkness of ignorance.

Akots · 26th February 2003, 12:37 PM

It's extremely, extremely disturbing to me that i never outrightly made the connection of Christians worshipping the book over God... it seems quite obvious now that you've said it like that.

As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love. Always best to wedge your argument in, in a way that doesn't insult them, or something they love.

26th February 2003, 12:43 PM

----
As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love.
----

The same thing is true when debating skeptics.

Akots · 26th February 2003, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
----
As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love.
----

The same thing is true when debating skeptics.

An astute observation, but I do not refer to any particular group of people when mentioning the habit of closing ears against undesired information.

However, a critical thinker by defenition would be eager to dispel his own wrong information and facts, and would not hesitate to admit s/he was wrong. Otherwise, he is not a critical thinker. Though one can think critically about religion, but have very uncritical thoguhts about politics related to his/her native country, or his/her own race of people. Everyone has a blind spot.

Franko · 26th February 2003, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Akots:
An astute observation, but I do not refer to any particular group of people when mentioning the habit of closing ears against undesired information.

However, a critical thinker by defenition would be eager to dispel his own wrong information and facts, and would not hesitate to admit s/he was wrong. Otherwise, he is not a critical thinker.

So what’s your evidence for “free willy” A-Theist?

Quote:

Though one can think critically about religion, but have very uncritical thoguhts about politics related to his/her native country, or his/her own race of people. Everyone has a blind spot.

Why is it that A-Theists claim to be Skeptics, yet they are so utterly unable to be Skeptical of the Religion of A-Theism??

That’s not a real Skeptic … that’s called a Hypocrite!

Tricky · 26th February 2003, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Akots
It's extremely, extremely disturbing to me that i never outrightly made the connection of Christians worshipping the book over God... it seems quite obvious now that you've said it like that.

As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love. Always best to wedge your argument in, in a way that doesn't insult them, or something they love.

This overlaps a thread in the banter section about respect for others' beliefs. My feeling is that you have to show respect for the person and keep your feelings about their beliefs under wraps until you know that you have mutual personal respect. Of course, if they show no respect for you as a person, then the gloves are off.

corplinx · 26th February 2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Akots
It's extremely, extremely disturbing to me that i never outrightly made the connection of Christians worshipping the book over God... it seems quite obvious now that you've said it like that.

Note the blatant hypocrisy. Fundamentalist protestants outright reject Greek Orthodoxy and Catholicism because of icons, statues, rosaries, crucifixes, and other objects they feel borderline or are blatant idolatry. However, sitting up on the mantle in their homes is a large, leatherbound, gold lined, tabbed Bible that they revere as the literal word of God. They believe the Bible is their "sword" according to a misinterpretation. It is not merely a book at all.

You see a commercial for a religious TV show and there is a man waving the Bible saying it has all the answers and extolling the virtues of the "good book".

Questioninggeller · 26th February 2003, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
----
As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love.
----

The same thing is true when debating skeptics.

True. Very true. No one is immune.

Tricky · 26th February 2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
----
As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love.
----

The same thing is true when debating skeptics.

I think it should also be noted that a when Person 2 does not agree with the arguments of Person 1, then Person 1 is likely to claim that Person 2 has "closed their ears". Usually this takes the form of calling the other person "closed-minded", and in some sense it is true. A skeptic is closed-minded about accepting things with only faith, and a believer is closed-minded about the need or nature of evidence. I do not see a ready solution to this problem.

LW · 27th February 2003, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
I usually tell them to read the Song of Songs. "Is her hair really a bunch of horses?

Goats.

27th February 2003, 02:35 PM

I think it should also be noted that a when Person 2 does not agree with the arguments of Person 1, then Person 1 is likely to claim that Person 2 has "closed their ears". Usually this takes the form of calling the other person "closed-minded", and in some sense it is true. A skeptic is closed-minded about accepting things with only faith, and a believer is closed-minded about the need or nature of evidence. I do not see a ready solution to this problem.

Hey Tricky,

I read an article just today that says this is primarily a problem of Western thinking. The author cited a study of 500 Chinese and 500 Americans. The results showed that the Americans were significantly more likely to re-affirm the validity of their position after hearing an opposing argument, whereas the Chinese were more likely to move to the middle ground after hearing an opposing argument.

The author cites as a primarly difference the notion that Westerns cling to the idea of "absolute proof," whereas the Chinese culture is more apt to find truth in contradiction and paradox.

Anyway, my point is that is most likely a Western phenomenon.

Flick

Akots · 27th February 2003, 02:39 PM

Eastern religions, especially oriental or islamic ones, are very old, while north america itself is only, what... a few hundred years old?

We westerners are probably just so enamored with our new toys that we don't want them taken away from us.

Aoidoi · 27th February 2003, 02:42 PM

I've also note that as a culture the Chinese are more willing to agree with you verbally and then do something else entirely. They are conditioned towards moderating their opinions in certain areas like politics since the re-education camps can be a bit uncomfortable.

I can't really speak to the study mentioned knowing so little about it, but I suspect people are people most everywhere, and only the details change. Being polite and being open-minded are quite different but can look similar.

27th February 2003, 02:42 PM

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkele...826/truth.html

That's the link to the article Tricky...

Flick

Skeptical Greg · 27th February 2003, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stamenflicker

The author cites as a primarly difference the notion that Westerns cling to the idea of "absolute proof," whereas the Chinese culture is more apt to find truth in contradiction and paradox.

Hey!! That explains Whodini..
( unless I'm wrong in my observation that he seems to lean towards some type of Eastern philosophy )

27th February 2003, 04:16 PM

----
The results showed that the Americans were significantly more likely to re-affirm the validity of their position after hearing an opposing argument,...

Westerns cling to the idea of "absolute proof,"...
----

Hey!! That explains Diogenes..

26th February 2003, 12:00 PM	#1
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Bible Contradictions, Hypocrisy, and Deprogramming I think the reluctance of Xians to accept errors or contradictions in the Bible is a simple case of ignorance and breaking one of their own commandments (idolatry). Simply put, for lack of a golden calf many Xians have substituted a book. My mother believed the bible was the infallible word of God but slowly I have tried to corrupt her. "Mom, don't you know the Bible was assembled by people with their own agenda, they left some great books out" For some reason, Xians also have a warped definition of "inspiration". When they read "about the inspired word of god" they imagine God possessing someone and telling them the words to write or taking control of their hand. If someone wants to see what Biblical inspiration is, I usually tell them to read the Song of Songs. "Is her hair really a bunch of horses? No. Its poetic device. Its inspired writing, not the result of godly possession". Mostly it comes down to plain hypocrisy though. Xians cling to their Bibles as if those pages are the verbatim word of God and not an assembled collection. If Paul knew that people would take his advice to budding churches as the literal word of god, he probably would have left some major disclaimers in the beginnings of his letters. "Warning: these are just my thoughts, I could be wrong, I am sure in 2000 years you will have come up with new insights and rules for running a church". I always hate to talk about the Bible with family members because even people close to you have knee jerk reactions. I find the best remedy is to start out talking about how the bible was assembled. You also have to be careful to mention that their faith should not depend on a leatherbound volume of printed pages. I find that insight alone helps people away from "Bible Idolatry". It also helps if you don't challenge their belief in deity while trying to get them to think outside the box about the Bible. Be respectful, nice, and cordial. Hopefully you can shine some light into the darkness of ignorance.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

26th February 2003, 12:37 PM	#2
Akots Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 494	It's extremely, extremely disturbing to me that i never outrightly made the connection of Christians worshipping the book over God... it seems quite obvious now that you've said it like that. As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love. Always best to wedge your argument in, in a way that doesn't insult them, or something they love.
Akots Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 494	__________________ I can't drink POSSIBLE beers! I need ACTUAL beers! Damn you, quantum mechanics!

26th February 2003, 12:43 PM	#3
Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Bible Contradictions, Hypocrisy, and Deprogramming ---- As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love. ---- The same thing is true when debating skeptics.
Guest Posts: n/a

26th February 2003, 12:49 PM	#4
Akots Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 494	Re: Re: Bible Contradictions, Hypocrisy, and Deprogramming Quote: Originally posted by Whodini ---- As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love. ---- The same thing is true when debating skeptics. An astute observation, but I do not refer to any particular group of people when mentioning the habit of closing ears against undesired information. However, a critical thinker by defenition would be eager to dispel his own wrong information and facts, and would not hesitate to admit s/he was wrong. Otherwise, he is not a critical thinker. Though one can think critically about religion, but have very uncritical thoguhts about politics related to his/her native country, or his/her own race of people. Everyone has a blind spot.
Akots Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 494	__________________ I can't drink POSSIBLE beers! I need ACTUAL beers! Damn you, quantum mechanics!

26th February 2003, 12:55 PM	#5
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: Akots: An astute observation, but I do not refer to any particular group of people when mentioning the habit of closing ears against undesired information. However, a critical thinker by defenition would be eager to dispel his own wrong information and facts, and would not hesitate to admit s/he was wrong. Otherwise, he is not a critical thinker. So what’s your evidence for “free willy” A-Theist? Quote: Though one can think critically about religion, but have very uncritical thoguhts about politics related to his/her native country, or his/her own race of people. Everyone has a blind spot. Why is it that A-Theists claim to be Skeptics, yet they are so utterly unable to be Skeptical of the Religion of A-Theism?? That’s not a real Skeptic … that’s called a Hypocrite!
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

26th February 2003, 12:59 PM	#6
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,373	Quote: Originally posted by Akots It's extremely, extremely disturbing to me that i never outrightly made the connection of Christians worshipping the book over God... it seems quite obvious now that you've said it like that. As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love. Always best to wedge your argument in, in a way that doesn't insult them, or something they love. This overlaps a thread in the banter section about respect for others' beliefs. My feeling is that you have to show respect for the person and keep your feelings about their beliefs under wraps until you know that you have mutual personal respect. Of course, if they show no respect for you as a person, then the gloves are off.

26th February 2003, 02:21 PM	#7
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Quote: Originally posted by Akots It's extremely, extremely disturbing to me that i never outrightly made the connection of Christians worshipping the book over God... it seems quite obvious now that you've said it like that. Note the blatant hypocrisy. Fundamentalist protestants outright reject Greek Orthodoxy and Catholicism because of icons, statues, rosaries, crucifixes, and other objects they feel borderline or are blatant idolatry. However, sitting up on the mantle in their homes is a large, leatherbound, gold lined, tabbed Bible that they revere as the literal word of God. They believe the Bible is their "sword" according to a misinterpretation. It is not merely a book at all. You see a commercial for a religious TV show and there is a man waving the Bible saying it has all the answers and extolling the virtues of the "good book".
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

26th February 2003, 07:39 PM	#8
Questioninggeller Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,030	Re: Re: Bible Contradictions, Hypocrisy, and Deprogramming Quote: Originally posted by Whodini ---- As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love. ---- The same thing is true when debating skeptics. True. Very true. No one is immune.

26th February 2003, 07:58 PM	#9
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,373	Re: Re: Bible Contradictions, Hypocrisy, and Deprogramming Quote: Originally posted by Whodini ---- As for debunking, people will always close their ears if they think you are attacking them, or something they love. ---- The same thing is true when debating skeptics. I think it should also be noted that a when Person 2 does not agree with the arguments of Person 1, then Person 1 is likely to claim that Person 2 has "closed their ears". Usually this takes the form of calling the other person "closed-minded", and in some sense it is true. A skeptic is closed-minded about accepting things with only faith, and a believer is closed-minded about the need or nature of evidence. I do not see a ready solution to this problem.

27th February 2003, 05:05 AM	#10
LW Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 60°N 25°E Posts: 2,800	Re: Bible Contradictions, Hypocrisy, and Deprogramming Quote: Originally posted by corplinx *I usually tell them to read the Song of Songs. "Is her hair really a bunch of horses?* Goats.

27th February 2003, 02:35 PM	#11
stamenflicker Guest Posts: n/a	I think it should also be noted that a when Person 2 does not agree with the arguments of Person 1, then Person 1 is likely to claim that Person 2 has "closed their ears". Usually this takes the form of calling the other person "closed-minded", and in some sense it is true. A skeptic is closed-minded about accepting things with only faith, and a believer is closed-minded about the need or nature of evidence. I do not see a ready solution to this problem. Hey Tricky, I read an article just today that says this is primarily a problem of Western thinking. The author cited a study of 500 Chinese and 500 Americans. The results showed that the Americans were significantly more likely to re-affirm the validity of their position after hearing an opposing argument, whereas the Chinese were more likely to move to the middle ground after hearing an opposing argument. The author cites as a primarly difference the notion that Westerns cling to the idea of "absolute proof," whereas the Chinese culture is more apt to find truth in contradiction and paradox. Anyway, my point is that is most likely a Western phenomenon. Flick
stamenflicker Guest Posts: n/a

27th February 2003, 02:39 PM	#12
Akots Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 494	Eastern religions, especially oriental or islamic ones, are very old, while north america itself is only, what... a few hundred years old? We westerners are probably just so enamored with our new toys that we don't want them taken away from us.
Akots Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 494	__________________ I can't drink POSSIBLE beers! I need ACTUAL beers! Damn you, quantum mechanics!

27th February 2003, 02:42 PM	#13
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,418	I've also note that as a culture the Chinese are more willing to agree with you verbally and then do something else entirely. They are conditioned towards moderating their opinions in certain areas like politics since the re-education camps can be a bit uncomfortable. I can't really speak to the study mentioned knowing so little about it, but I suspect people are people most everywhere, and only the details change. Being polite and being open-minded are quite different but can look similar.
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,418	__________________ "The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they can level mountains, and nobody doubts them." - Joseph Campbell We cannot defend freedom abroad by abandoning it at home. —Edward R. Murrow

27th February 2003, 02:49 PM	#15
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,874	Quote: Originally posted by stamenflicker The author cites as a primarly difference the notion that Westerns cling to the idea of "absolute proof," whereas the Chinese culture is more apt to find truth in contradiction and paradox. Hey!! That explains Whodini.. ( unless I'm wrong in my observation that he seems to lean towards some type of Eastern philosophy )
	__________________ " Somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross, and a giant bunny hiding eggs,there seems to be a gap in information. " Stan - Southpark Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

27th February 2003, 04:16 PM	#16
Guest Posts: n/a	---- The results showed that the Americans were significantly more likely to re-affirm the validity of their position after hearing an opposing argument,... Westerns cling to the idea of "absolute proof,"... ---- Hey!! That explains Diogenes..
Guest Posts: n/a