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Titanic Explorer · 9th January 2010, 04:40 PM

How are religions different from cults?

In my mind, if you spend your life blindly obeying the rules of some religious text, worship and live in fear of a God, and hate groups of people (and yourself) because members of your church tell you to- that seems very cult-like to me....

In my book religions ARE cults....

Is there really a difference?

Fundamentalist Christians dismiss Scientology as a cult (and I agree with that assessment)- but I think fundamentalist Chrisianity is also a cult...

Is it a case where only the unpopular religions are cults?

Cainkane1 · 9th January 2010, 04:55 PM

There is no difference except in the size of the religion itself. All religion great and small is absurd.

Pope130 · 9th January 2010, 05:23 PM

Religions have tax exempt status, cults don't.

Hux · 9th January 2010, 05:26 PM

They're still a bunch of cults.

learner · 9th January 2010, 05:27 PM

A cult is what you call the competition.

GT/CS · 9th January 2010, 06:37 PM

I'll be darned, there is no difference.

- followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices

- followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader

- a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false; "it was a satanic cult"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

False religion????

drkitten · 9th January 2010, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer

How are religions different from cults?

In my mind, if you spend your life blindly obeying the rules of some religious text, worship and live in fear of a God, and hate groups of people (and yourself) because members of your church tell you to- that seems very cult-like to me....

In my book religions ARE cults....

Is there really a difference?

Yes, there is really a difference, at least among the professionals who study the subject. All cults are religions, but not all religions are cults.

Titanic Explorer · 9th January 2010, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

Yes, there is really a difference, at least among the professionals who study the subject. All cults are religions, but not all religions are cults.

Thanks for the link....Going by that list, most (if not all) fundamentalist and evengelical Chrisitan sects are indeed cults

quadraginta · 9th January 2010, 08:45 PM

I think the difference is very much like the traditional distinction between someone who is "nutty" and someone who is "eccentric", mostly how wealthy or influential they or their family and friends are.

Tricky · 9th January 2010, 08:54 PM

Generally speaking, cults have a living charismatic leader who commands blind obedience and single-minded focus on the dogma. There have been cults within religions to be sure, like the Branch Davidians, who were nominally Christians.

Scientology might be a cult at it's uppermost reaches, but for many (most?) it is just an interesting thing to dabble in. If you only dabble, you're not in the cult.

Titanic Explorer · 9th January 2010, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Tricky

Generally speaking, cults have a living charismatic leader who commands blind obedience and single-minded focus on the dogma. There have been cults within religions to be sure, like the Branch Davidians, who were nominally Christians.

Scientology might be a cult at it's uppermost reaches, but for many (most?) it is just an interesting thing to dabble in. If you only dabble, you're not in the cult.

Is Protestant Pat Robertson a cult leader? His followers obey him...

How about in my former religion; Catholicism- The Pope is "charismatic leader who commands blind obedience and single-minded focus on the dogma."
Is the Catholic religion a cult?

Given that much of the middle east is a Muslim theocracy, and there is a demand for total and blind obedience, I'd wager to say most if not all sects of Islam are cults...

Titanic Explorer · 9th January 2010, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

I think the difference is very much like the traditional distinction between someone who is "nutty" and someone who is "eccentric", mostly how wealthy or influential they or their family and friends are.

But all religions are nutty....

quadraginta · 9th January 2010, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer

But all religions are nutty....

Yes. I see you understand.

drkitten · 9th January 2010, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer

Is Protestant Pat Robertson a cult leader? His followers obey him...

Do they? How so?

When the cult theorist talk about "obeying the cult leader," they're typically talking about much more personal and detailed obedience than simply "don't eat beans" or "tithe." We're talking about "you, wash my car -- you, mow my lawn, and you two, I need my garage painted."

Robertson doesn't exercise this level of control over his followers.

Quote:

How about in my former religion; Catholicism- The Pope is "charismatic leader who commands blind obedience and single-minded focus on the dogma."
Is the Catholic religion a cult?

No. First of all, Benny isn't that charismatic. Second, if you've ever spoken to a Jesuit, you'll see that there's no such thing as "blind obedience."

Quote:

Given that much of the middle east is a Muslim theocracy, and there is a demand for total and blind obedience, I'd wager to say most if not all sects of Islam are cults...

And you'd be wrong. I think you're misunderstanding the nature of "obedience."

drkitten · 9th January 2010, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer

Thanks for the link....Going by that list, most (if not all) fundamentalist and evengelical Chrisitan sects are indeed cults

Er, no.

You've obviously never experienced a REAL cult. Unfortunately, I have. The amount of control a typical evangelical sect has over its members is nowhere near cult-like.

A relative of mine was involved in an actual cult for a while. Every meal she consumed unless she was specifically excused was under the supervision of one of the cult leaders; passing the salt in the wrong direction was a sin and would draw punishment. She was required to turn over her paycheck to the cult, and they gave her a "living allowance" out of it.

Titanic Explorer · 9th January 2010, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

Er, no.

You've obviously never experienced a REAL cult. Unfortunately, I have. The amount of control a typical evangelical sect has over its members is nowhere near cult-like.

A relative of mine was involved in an actual cult for a while. Every meal she consumed unless she was specifically excused was under the supervision of one of the cult leaders; passing the salt in the wrong direction was a sin and would draw punishment. She was required to turn over her paycheck to the cult, and they gave her a "living allowance" out of it.

I have no doubt some cults are more oppressive than others...

My grandmother was a devout catholic, and lived in terror of going to Hell- She went to confession evey sunday, never missed church, and blindly obeyed the teachings of her religion. She lived to be 77, but her life was , in my opinion, ruined by her religion- she had no joy- she had only fear of eternal damnation.
How was her Christian Catholic religion not a cult?

My oldest brother is Lutheran, and I had the misfortune of hearing the sermon at his church- the preacher spewed hatred for gays, liberals, immigrants Jews, catholics, etc....When my brother got home, he mindlessly repeated the hateful talking points of his preacher.
My brother's personality has totally changed since he joined this church- he preaches only bigotry...

Are you going to tell me my brothers Lutheran religion not a cult?

drkitten · 9th January 2010, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer

I have no doubt some cults are more oppressive than others...

Half right. The mark of a cult is the oppression and mandatory personal obedience to the cult leader.

Quote:

My grandmother was a devout catholic, and lived in terror of going to Hell- She went to confession evey sunday, never missed church, and blindly obeyed the teachings of her religion. She lived to be 77, but her life was , in my opinion, ruined by her religion- she had no joy- she had only fear of eternal damnation.
How was her Christian Catholic religion not a cult?

No one was making her obey. No one was, for example, feeding her a low-protein diet so that she couldn't think clearly. No one was forcing her, under threat of actual physical punishment, to go to church.

And that's what makes the Catholic Church not a cult. Because even if Benny says "do this," you don't have to do this. There's no actual coercion applied.

Quote:

Are you going to tell me my brothers Lutheran religion not a cult?

I am, yes. Has anyone forcibly put him on a low-protein diet?

Francine · 9th January 2010, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by learner

A cult is what you call the competition.

I love this answer.

Originally Posted by quadraginta

I think the difference is very much like the traditional distinction between someone who is "nutty" and someone who is "eccentric", mostly how wealthy or influential they or their family and friends are.

This is also a great answer.

Originally Posted by Tricky

Generally speaking, cults have a living charismatic leader who commands blind obedience and single-minded focus on the dogma. There have been cults within religions to be sure, like the Branch Davidians, who were nominally Christians.

Scientology might be a cult at it's uppermost reaches, but for many (most?) it is just an interesting thing to dabble in. If you only dabble, you're not in the cult.

This may be true. But going by this, wouldn't Christianity have been considered a cult when people were listening to what Christ was teaching? A lot of people thought he was crazy and basically a rebel who wanted to go off and "brainwash people with his own whacky belief system". He came from a Jewish community, and dealt with the Romans who believed in many different gods. There were also Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims in the world. But not Christianity-not until Christ came along.

Throughout time, people could not admit that they were Christian or they would be killed themselves.

At what point did Christianity change from being what today we would define as a cult to one of the biggest religions in the world?

If the answer to that is based on numbers of followers, then I suppose any cult has the potential of becoming a religion over time.

Titanic Explorer · 9th January 2010, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

Half right. The mark of a cult is the oppression and mandatory personal obedience to the cult leader.

No one was making her obey. No one was, for example, feeding her a low-protein diet so that she couldn't think clearly. No one was forcing her, under threat of actual physical punishment, to go to church.

And that's what makes the Catholic Church not a cult. Because even if Benny says "do this," you don't have to do this. There's no actual coercion applied.

I am, yes. Has anyone forcibly put him on a low-protein diet?

My grandmother was brainwashed by her religion (which is the effect of all religion), and attended church because she had been told she would otherwise burn in Hell. THAT is a cult.

My brother was brainswahsed by his Lutheran church to hate anyone who was different, and to alter his thoughts and behaviors in accordance to what his church demanded.
In my book, he belongs to a cult...

It just seems to me that all religious are based on lies, control, fear and fiction.

MattusMaximus · 9th January 2010, 10:44 PM

The difference between a cult and an established religion?

About 100 years or so.

Just ask the Mormons

ETA: Having made my little joke, I'd have to say that I agree with a lot of drkitten's responses in this thread. While a lot of what modern evangelical Christianity preaches kind of creeps me out, I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to seriously label it cultish. There are, of course, some exceptions - for example, David Koresh and his little bunch of nuts.

Dragoonster · 10th January 2010, 03:51 AM

I've always thought the thing that distinguished a cult is that their leaders sought personal or financial power/wealth as the primary reason for either starting or maintaining their flocks' beliefs; even if they themselves believed in their crap. Such types wouldn't spread their word out of a true desire to improve humanity or individuals, but to improve their own position.

I guess all religions have some individuals in power like this though, and some cults have people who honestly think their way is right and want to help people. So, a mix depending on intentions of those in power. All their beliefs and requirements seem quite nuts so I don't think distinguishing which is a cult and which a religion by pointing to "more nuts" and "less nuts" (or "more silly forced requirements" and "less silly forced requirements") is accurate.

Eyeron · 10th January 2010, 03:53 AM

You can leave a religion. You can't leave a cult.

Earthborn · 10th January 2010, 04:45 AM

According to ReligiousTolerance.org:

Quote:

However, the term has since been assigned at least eight new and very different meanings. The original meaning of "cult" remains positive; more recent definitions are neutral, negative, or extremely negative:

(snip)

We have seen "cult" used to refer to Evangelical denominations, the Roman Catholic Church, Unification Church, Church of Scientology, United Church of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Wiccans, other Neopagans and many other faith groups. The term is essentially meaningless.

porch · 10th January 2010, 04:57 AM

Scientology is a general belief system. The Church of Scientology is a cult. The Freezoners are not cult-like, from what I've seen.

porch · 10th January 2010, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by Earthborn

According to ReligiousTolerance.org:

The broader the definition of cult we allow, the less useful it is, that's for sure true. Most serious work I've seen on cults refrains from labeling a group either/or (even though I'm guilty of just that thing in my previous post - but I'm just a hobbyist so it's ok). Groups are evaluated against a checklist of cult-like criteria, and there is no official tipping point at which an organization goes from not-cult to cult.

quadraginta · 10th January 2010, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by porch

The broader the definition of cult we allow, the less useful it is, that's for sure true. Most serious work I've seen on cults refrains from labeling a group either/or (even though I'm guilty of just that thing in my previous post - but I'm just a hobbyist so it's ok). Groups are evaluated against a checklist of cult-like criteria, and there is no official tipping point at which an organization goes from not-cult to cult.

If they do an IPO they have definitely graduated from "cult" status. Maybe we can work backward from that?

porch · 10th January 2010, 05:41 AM

What's an IPO?

quadraginta · 10th January 2010, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by porch

What's an IPO?

Initial Public Offering. When their stocks go for sale on the Exchange.

Dancing David · 10th January 2010, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer

How are religions different from cults?

In my mind, if you spend your life blindly obeying the rules of some religious text, worship and live in fear of a God, and hate groups of people (and yourself) because members of your church tell you to- that seems very cult-like to me....

In my book religions ARE cults....

Is there really a difference?

Fundamentalist Christians dismiss Scientology as a cult (and I agree with that assessment)- but I think fundamentalist Chrisianity is also a cult...

Is it a case where only the unpopular religions are cults?

Your cult, my religion.

drkitten · 10th January 2010, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

The difference between a cult and an established religion?

About 100 years or so.

Just ask the Mormons

Joking aside, that's actually fairly true. One of the key aspects of a cult is the focus on absolute obedience and personal service to the (living) founder of the cult. Most cults do not survive the death of their founder; those that do usually end up formalizing the founder's beliefs into some form of fixed dogma instead of the immediate and personal demands.

There's a huge difference that happens when someone new takes over and tries to run "the group" the way "the founder would have liked" instead of "the way I like."

(Mainstream) Mormonism ceased to be a cult more or less when someone else was forced to ask themselves "what would Brigham Young do" and to try to carry out his wishes instead of making it up as they go along. Christianity ceased to be a cult when people stopped making up major bits of doctrine based on personal revelation. Depending upon how you look at this, this could be the Council of Nicea, or it could be as early as Paul's death.

Of course, there are certainly Christian cults where someone does try to completely rewrite the Bible based on their own whim. But Lutheranism isn't one of them, and neither is Catholicism. And you can confirm that neither of these are cults by the widespread variety in practices and the existence of "cafeteria Catholicism" and its Lutheran equivalent. If the Pope were truly a cult leader, there would be no controversy about the ordination of women -- and certainly no twice-a-year C&E Catholics.

drkitten · 10th January 2010, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer

My grandmother was brainwashed by her religion (which is the effect of all religion), and attended church because she had been told she would otherwise burn in Hell. THAT is a cult.

No, it isn't.

Quote:

My brother was brainswahsed by his Lutheran church to hate anyone who was different, and to alter his thoughts and behaviors in accordance to what his church demanded.
In my book, he belongs to a cult...

Then your book is wrong.

Quote:

It just seems to me that all religious are based on lies, control, fear and fiction.

Which is exactly why "being based on lies and fiction" is not one of the characteristics of a cult. Because if you water the word "cult" down to encompass every religious group, it ceases to be useful as a term to describe actual cults. It simply means "religious group that I dislike."

Just because Catholicism isn't a cult doesn't mean you have to like, admire, or respect it.

Hux · 10th January 2010, 07:35 AM

Any religious body that preaches exclusion is, to my mind, a cult.

jadey · 10th January 2010, 08:17 AM

Though I often refer to religions as cults, I'd have to agree with drkitten. We already have a word for religion.

joobz · 10th January 2010, 08:33 AM

Difference between cult and religion?
The percentage of intact testicles.

seriously though, tricky and drkitten gave the best answers.

Wolfman · 10th January 2010, 08:51 AM

Obviously, the answer to this question is one that is going to differ depending on one's definitions. If one defines "cult" in the same way as one defines "religion", then obviously your answer is going to be "yes".

I define them differently.

I differentiate cults as being groups that actively use brainwashing techniques in order to maintain control over their followers. Sleep deprivation, love-bombing, or other such things. Most "religions" do not do this...they may demand obedience, they may have charismatic leaders, but in the end people choose to follow them. They may be deceived, deluded, tricked, manipulated, beguiled, etc....but they aren't literally brainwashed. And here, when I use the term "brainwashed", I mean specifically manipulating a person's mental state not just so that they do/believe what you say, but that they are reduced to a state where they are literally incapable of thinking for themselves.

I've dealt with people from religions. And I've dealt with people from cults. And there are very, very significant differences between the two. And very, very significant differences between how the leaders of each control their followers.

For example, Catholics aren't stuffed away in 3-5 day 'retreats' where they are denied sleep and bombarded with information until their minds literally shut down. Pat Robertson's followers aren't squirreled away in communes where they are not allowed to be exposed to anything other than their leader's teachings.

Yeah, there are sub-sets of some religions that may use such methods...but if you think that the two are the same, you really don't understand them very well.

Titanic Explorer · 10th January 2010, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Hux

Any religious body that preaches exclusion is, to my mind, a cult.

I agree....

Thunder · 10th January 2010, 11:46 AM

certainly, many religions are like cults. but some more than others, and some streams of each religion, more then others.

I think Methodists and Presbyterians are much less cult like than Southern baptists and 7th Day Adventists.

just as Conservative Jews are extremally less cult like than Hasidim...or even mainstream Orthodox Jews.

Titanic Explorer · 10th January 2010, 12:59 PM

Perhaps the more over zealous religious branches are cults...like the group of Christians in the American south that handle rattlesnakes and allow trhemselves to be bitten- as they think the serpent is Satan incarnate, and the venom is 'evil'-so they try and use their faith to heal themselves.....

Perhaps the less oppressive religious branches are not technically cults- but they seem quite detached from reality...

EventHorizon · 10th January 2010, 01:05 PM

Cults have free Kool Aid. And sometimes cake.

KingMerv00 · 10th January 2010, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Pope130

Religions have tax exempt status, cults don't.

That's technically not true. There are atheist churches that get tax exempt status.

9th January 2010, 04:40 PM	#1
Titanic Explorer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Boston Posts: 1,285	How are religions different from cults? How are religions different from cults? In my mind, if you spend your life blindly obeying the rules of some religious text, worship and live in fear of a God, and hate groups of people (and yourself) because members of your church tell you to- that seems very cult-like to me.... In my book religions ARE cults.... Is there really a difference? Fundamentalist Christians dismiss Scientology as a cult (and I agree with that assessment)- but I think fundamentalist Chrisianity is also a cult... Is it a case where only the unpopular religions are cults?
	Last edited by Titanic Explorer; 9th January 2010 at 04:41 PM.

9th January 2010, 04:55 PM	#2
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,239	There is no difference except in the size of the religion itself. All religion great and small is absurd.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

9th January 2010, 05:26 PM	#4
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	They're still a bunch of cults.
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	__________________ *...people of faith who are that intelligent they've only managed to fool themselves* - MARDUK

9th January 2010, 05:27 PM	#5
learner Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2008 Location: dorset england Posts: 1,594	A cult is what you call the competition.
	__________________ "I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous" - My Mate Dave " How do you expect me to use my initiative if you wont tell me what to do?" - Dave again

9th January 2010, 06:37 PM	#6
GT/CS Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,630	I'll be darned, there is no difference. - followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices - followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader - a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false; "it was a satanic cult" wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn False religion????
GT/CS Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,630	__________________ SweatyYeti or Bill Munns would be my vote for looking at this - BFSleuth @ BFF I've got plenty of common sense! I just choose to ignore it. - Calvin; October 15, 1986

9th January 2010, 05:23 PM	#3
Pope130 Muse Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 972	Religions have tax exempt status, cults don't.

9th January 2010, 06:40 PM	#7
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer How are religions different from cults? In my mind, if you spend your life blindly obeying the rules of some religious text, worship and live in fear of a God, and hate groups of people (and yourself) because members of your church tell you to- that seems very cult-like to me.... In my book religions ARE cults.... Is there really a difference? Yes, there is really a difference, at least among the professionals who study the subject. All cults are religions, but not all religions are cults.

9th January 2010, 08:32 PM	#8
Titanic Explorer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Boston Posts: 1,285	Originally Posted by drkitten Yes, there is really a difference, at least among the professionals who study the subject. All cults are religions, but not all religions are cults. Thanks for the link....Going by that list, most (if not all) fundamentalist and evengelical Chrisitan sects are indeed cults

9th January 2010, 08:45 PM	#9
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 7,964	I think the difference is very much like the traditional distinction between someone who is "nutty" and someone who is "eccentric", mostly how wealthy or influential they or their family and friends are.
	__________________ "It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."

9th January 2010, 08:54 PM	#10
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,406	Generally speaking, cults have a living charismatic leader who commands blind obedience and single-minded focus on the dogma. There have been cults within religions to be sure, like the Branch Davidians, who were nominally Christians. Scientology might be a cult at it's uppermost reaches, but for many (most?) it is just an interesting thing to dabble in. If you only dabble, you're not in the cult.

9th January 2010, 09:06 PM	#11
Titanic Explorer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Boston Posts: 1,285	Originally Posted by Tricky Generally speaking, cults have a living charismatic leader who commands blind obedience and single-minded focus on the dogma. There have been cults within religions to be sure, like the Branch Davidians, who were nominally Christians. Scientology might be a cult at it's uppermost reaches, but for many (most?) it is just an interesting thing to dabble in. If you only dabble, you're not in the cult. Is Protestant Pat Robertson a cult leader? His followers obey him... How about in my former religion; Catholicism- The Pope is "charismatic leader who commands blind obedience and single-minded focus on the dogma." Is the Catholic religion a cult? Given that much of the middle east is a Muslim theocracy, and there is a demand for total and blind obedience, I'd wager to say most if not all sects of Islam are cults...
	Last edited by Titanic Explorer; 9th January 2010 at 09:08 PM.

9th January 2010, 09:09 PM	#12
Titanic Explorer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Boston Posts: 1,285	Originally Posted by quadraginta I think the difference is very much like the traditional distinction between someone who is "nutty" and someone who is "eccentric", mostly how wealthy or influential they or their family and friends are. But all religions are nutty....

9th January 2010, 09:12 PM	#13
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 7,964	Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer But all religions are nutty.... Yes. I see you understand.
	__________________ "It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."

9th January 2010, 09:19 PM	#14
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer Is Protestant Pat Robertson a cult leader? His followers obey him... Do they? How so? When the cult theorist talk about "obeying the cult leader," they're typically talking about much more personal and detailed obedience than simply "don't eat beans" or "tithe." We're talking about "you, wash my car -- you, mow my lawn, and you two, I need my garage painted." Robertson doesn't exercise this level of control over his followers. Quote: How about in my former religion; Catholicism- The Pope is "charismatic leader who commands blind obedience and single-minded focus on the dogma." Is the Catholic religion a cult? No. First of all, Benny isn't that charismatic. Second, if you've ever spoken to a Jesuit, you'll see that there's no such thing as "blind obedience." Quote: Given that much of the middle east is a Muslim theocracy, and there is a demand for total and blind obedience, I'd wager to say most if not all sects of Islam are cults... And you'd be wrong. I think you're misunderstanding the nature of "obedience."

9th January 2010, 09:24 PM	#15
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer Thanks for the link....Going by that list, most (if not all) fundamentalist and evengelical Chrisitan sects are indeed cults Er, no. You've obviously never experienced a REAL cult. Unfortunately, I have. The amount of control a typical evangelical sect has over its members is nowhere near cult-like. A relative of mine was involved in an actual cult for a while. Every meal she consumed unless she was specifically excused was under the supervision of one of the cult leaders; passing the salt in the wrong direction was a sin and would draw punishment. She was required to turn over her paycheck to the cult, and they gave her a "living allowance" out of it.

9th January 2010, 09:34 PM	#16
Titanic Explorer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Boston Posts: 1,285	Originally Posted by drkitten Er, no. You've obviously never experienced a REAL cult. Unfortunately, I have. The amount of control a typical evangelical sect has over its members is nowhere near cult-like. A relative of mine was involved in an actual cult for a while. Every meal she consumed unless she was specifically excused was under the supervision of one of the cult leaders; passing the salt in the wrong direction was a sin and would draw punishment. She was required to turn over her paycheck to the cult, and they gave her a "living allowance" out of it. I have no doubt some cults are more oppressive than others... My grandmother was a devout catholic, and lived in terror of going to Hell- She went to confession evey sunday, never missed church, and blindly obeyed the teachings of her religion. She lived to be 77, but her life was , in my opinion, ruined by her religion- she had no joy- she had only fear of eternal damnation. How was her Christian Catholic religion not a cult? My oldest brother is Lutheran, and I had the misfortune of hearing the sermon at his church- the preacher spewed hatred for gays, liberals, immigrants Jews, catholics, etc....When my brother got home, he mindlessly repeated the hateful talking points of his preacher. My brother's personality has totally changed since he joined this church- he preaches only bigotry... Are you going to tell me my brothers Lutheran religion not a cult?

9th January 2010, 09:45 PM	#17
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer I have no doubt some cults are more oppressive than others... Half right. The mark of a cult is the oppression and mandatory personal obedience to the cult leader. Quote: My grandmother was a devout catholic, and lived in terror of going to Hell- She went to confession evey sunday, never missed church, and blindly obeyed the teachings of her religion. She lived to be 77, but her life was , in my opinion, ruined by her religion- she had no joy- she had only fear of eternal damnation. How was her Christian Catholic religion not a cult? No one was making her obey. No one was, for example, feeding her a low-protein diet so that she couldn't think clearly. No one was forcing her, under threat of actual physical punishment, to go to church. And that's what makes the Catholic Church not a cult. Because even if Benny says "do this," you don't have to do this. There's no actual coercion applied. Quote: Are you going to tell me my brothers Lutheran religion not a cult? I am, yes. Has anyone forcibly put him on a low-protein diet?

9th January 2010, 10:37 PM	#18
Francine Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: The Other Side Posts: 68	Originally Posted by learner A cult is what you call the competition. I love this answer. Originally Posted by quadraginta I think the difference is very much like the traditional distinction between someone who is "nutty" and someone who is "eccentric", mostly how wealthy or influential they or their family and friends are. This is also a great answer. Originally Posted by Tricky Generally speaking, cults have a living charismatic leader who commands blind obedience and single-minded focus on the dogma. There have been cults within religions to be sure, like the Branch Davidians, who were nominally Christians. Scientology might be a cult at it's uppermost reaches, but for many (most?) it is just an interesting thing to dabble in. If you only dabble, you're not in the cult. This may be true. But going by this, wouldn't Christianity have been considered a cult when people were listening to what Christ was teaching? A lot of people thought he was crazy and basically a rebel who wanted to go off and "brainwash people with his own whacky belief system". He came from a Jewish community, and dealt with the Romans who believed in many different gods. There were also Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims in the world. But not Christianity-not until Christ came along. Throughout time, people could not admit that they were Christian or they would be killed themselves. At what point did Christianity change from being what today we would define as a cult to one of the biggest religions in the world? If the answer to that is based on numbers of followers, then I suppose any cult has the potential of becoming a religion over time.

9th January 2010, 10:41 PM	#19
Titanic Explorer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Boston Posts: 1,285	Originally Posted by drkitten Half right. The mark of a cult is the oppression and mandatory personal obedience to the cult leader. No one was making her obey. No one was, for example, feeding her a low-protein diet so that she couldn't think clearly. No one was forcing her, under threat of actual physical punishment, to go to church. And that's what makes the Catholic Church not a cult. Because even if Benny says "do this," you don't have to do this. There's no actual coercion applied. I am, yes. Has anyone forcibly put him on a low-protein diet? My grandmother was brainwashed by her religion (which is the effect of all religion), and attended church because she had been told she would otherwise burn in Hell. THAT is a cult. My brother was brainswahsed by his Lutheran church to hate anyone who was different, and to alter his thoughts and behaviors in accordance to what his church demanded. In my book, he belongs to a cult... It just seems to me that all religious are based on lies, control, fear and fiction.
	Last edited by Titanic Explorer; 9th January 2010 at 11:32 PM.

9th January 2010, 10:44 PM	#20
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,204	The difference between a cult and an established religion? About 100 years or so. Just ask the Mormons ETA: Having made my little joke, I'd have to say that I agree with a lot of drkitten's responses in this thread. While a lot of what modern evangelical Christianity preaches kind of creeps me out, I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to seriously label it cultish. There are, of course, some exceptions - for example, David Koresh and his little bunch of nuts.
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10th January 2010, 03:51 AM	#21
Dragoonster Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,583	I've always thought the thing that distinguished a cult is that their leaders sought personal or financial power/wealth as the primary reason for either starting or maintaining their flocks' beliefs; even if they themselves believed in their crap. Such types wouldn't spread their word out of a true desire to improve humanity or individuals, but to improve their own position. I guess all religions have some individuals in power like this though, and some cults have people who honestly think their way is right and want to help people. So, a mix depending on intentions of those in power. All their beliefs and requirements seem quite nuts so I don't think distinguishing which is a cult and which a religion by pointing to "more nuts" and "less nuts" (or "more silly forced requirements" and "less silly forced requirements") is accurate.

10th January 2010, 03:53 AM	#22
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774	You can leave a religion. You can't leave a cult.
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774

10th January 2010, 04:45 AM	#23
Earthborn Terrestrial Intelligence Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Terra Firma Posts: 5,676	According to ReligiousTolerance.org: Quote: However, the term has since been assigned at least eight new and very different meanings. The original meaning of "cult" remains positive; more recent definitions are neutral, negative, or extremely negative: (snip) We have seen "cult" used to refer to Evangelical denominations, the Roman Catholic Church, Unification Church, Church of Scientology, United Church of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Wiccans, other Neopagans and many other faith groups. The term is essentially meaningless.
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10th January 2010, 04:57 AM	#24
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 521	Scientology is a general belief system. The Church of Scientology is a cult. The Freezoners are not cult-like, from what I've seen.
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 521

10th January 2010, 05:13 AM	#25
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 521	Originally Posted by Earthborn According to ReligiousTolerance.org: The broader the definition of cult we allow, the less useful it is, that's for sure true. Most serious work I've seen on cults refrains from labeling a group either/or (even though I'm guilty of just that thing in my previous post - but I'm just a hobbyist so it's ok). Groups are evaluated against a checklist of cult-like criteria, and there is no official tipping point at which an organization goes from not-cult to cult.
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 521

10th January 2010, 05:34 AM	#26
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 7,964	Originally Posted by porch The broader the definition of cult we allow, the less useful it is, that's for sure true. Most serious work I've seen on cults refrains from labeling a group either/or (even though I'm guilty of just that thing in my previous post - but I'm just a hobbyist so it's ok). Groups are evaluated against a checklist of cult-like criteria, and there is no official tipping point at which an organization goes from not-cult to cult. If they do an IPO they have definitely graduated from "cult" status. Maybe we can work backward from that?
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10th January 2010, 05:41 AM	#27
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 521	What's an IPO?
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 521

10th January 2010, 05:53 AM	#28
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 7,964	Originally Posted by porch What's an IPO? Initial Public Offering. When their stocks go for sale on the Exchange.
	__________________ "It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."

10th January 2010, 05:55 AM	#29
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,931	Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer How are religions different from cults? In my mind, if you spend your life blindly obeying the rules of some religious text, worship and live in fear of a God, and hate groups of people (and yourself) because members of your church tell you to- that seems very cult-like to me.... In my book religions ARE cults.... Is there really a difference? Fundamentalist Christians dismiss Scientology as a cult (and I agree with that assessment)- but I think fundamentalist Chrisianity is also a cult... Is it a case where only the unpopular religions are cults? Your cult, my religion.
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10th January 2010, 06:47 AM	#30
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus The difference between a cult and an established religion? About 100 years or so. Just ask the Mormons Joking aside, that's actually fairly true. One of the key aspects of a cult is the focus on absolute obedience and personal service to the (living) founder of the cult. Most cults do not survive the death of their founder; those that do usually end up formalizing the founder's beliefs into some form of fixed dogma instead of the immediate and personal demands. There's a huge difference that happens when someone new takes over and tries to run "the group" the way "the founder would have liked" instead of "the way I like." (Mainstream) Mormonism ceased to be a cult more or less when someone else was forced to ask themselves "what would Brigham Young do" and to try to carry out his wishes instead of making it up as they go along. Christianity ceased to be a cult when people stopped making up major bits of doctrine based on personal revelation. Depending upon how you look at this, this could be the Council of Nicea, or it could be as early as Paul's death. Of course, there are certainly Christian cults where someone does try to completely rewrite the Bible based on their own whim. But Lutheranism isn't one of them, and neither is Catholicism. And you can confirm that neither of these are cults by the widespread variety in practices and the existence of "cafeteria Catholicism" and its Lutheran equivalent. If the Pope were truly a cult leader, there would be no controversy about the ordination of women -- and certainly no twice-a-year C&E Catholics.

10th January 2010, 06:51 AM	#31
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Titanic Explorer My grandmother was brainwashed by her religion (which is the effect of all religion), and attended church because she had been told she would otherwise burn in Hell. THAT is a cult. No, it isn't. Quote: My brother was brainswahsed by his Lutheran church to hate anyone who was different, and to alter his thoughts and behaviors in accordance to what his church demanded. In my book, he belongs to a cult... Then your book is wrong. Quote: It just seems to me that all religious are based on lies, control, fear and fiction. Which is exactly why "being based on lies and fiction" is not one of the characteristics of a cult. Because if you water the word "cult" down to encompass every religious group, it ceases to be useful as a term to describe actual cults. It simply means "religious group that I dislike." Just because Catholicism isn't a cult doesn't mean you have to like, admire, or respect it.

10th January 2010, 07:35 AM	#32
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	Any religious body that preaches exclusion is, to my mind, a cult.
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10th January 2010, 08:17 AM	#33
jadey Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Merry Land Posts: 2,378	Though I often refer to religions as cults, I'd have to agree with drkitten. We already have a word for religion.

10th January 2010, 08:33 AM	#34
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,588	Difference between cult and religion? The percentage of intact testicles. seriously though, tricky and drkitten gave the best answers.
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10th January 2010, 08:51 AM	#35
Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dongguan, China Posts: 11,853	Obviously, the answer to this question is one that is going to differ depending on one's definitions. If one defines "cult" in the same way as one defines "religion", then obviously your answer is going to be "yes". I define them differently. I differentiate cults as being groups that actively use brainwashing techniques in order to maintain control over their followers. Sleep deprivation, love-bombing, or other such things. Most "religions" do not do this...they may demand obedience, they may have charismatic leaders, but in the end people choose to follow them. They may be deceived, deluded, tricked, manipulated, beguiled, etc....but they aren't literally brainwashed. And here, when I use the term "brainwashed", I mean specifically manipulating a person's mental state not just so that they do/believe what you say, but that they are reduced to a state where they are literally incapable of thinking for themselves. I've dealt with people from religions. And I've dealt with people from cults. And there are very, very significant differences between the two. And very, very significant differences between how the leaders of each control their followers. For example, Catholics aren't stuffed away in 3-5 day 'retreats' where they are denied sleep and bombarded with information until their minds literally shut down. Pat Robertson's followers aren't squirreled away in communes where they are not allowed to be exposed to anything other than their leader's teachings. Yeah, there are sub-sets of some religions that may use such methods...but if you think that the two are the same, you really don't understand them very well.
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