Hitler was a Christian!

boyntonstu · 15th January 2010, 05:36 AM

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

Hitler was a self proclaimed Christian.

Many, many other Christians accepted his words.

HansMustermann · 15th January 2010, 05:45 AM

Hitler also might have qualified as a Jew under his own racial rules. And there's probably a reason why he excluded himself explicitly from his own racial laws

Thunder · 15th January 2010, 05:47 AM

Hitler was 1/4 Jewish. By this standard, he could have come to Israel under the Law of Return, and become an Israeli citizen.

Nevermind the fact that possibly 100,000 1/4, 1/2 Jews, and Germans married to Jews, served in the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe during WW2.

One of the main generals of the Luftwaffe was a half-Jew.

A half-Jew appeared on a Nazi propaganda poster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischlinge

Doubt · 15th January 2010, 06:16 AM

We have had long threads on this before. Suffice to say, that Hitlers belief system was rather flexible. Public statements by the liars that ran Nazi Germany should not be considered as concrete proof of what they believed. Evidence for pagan, christian and atheist ideas can be found for various Nazi leaders.

boyntonstu · 15th January 2010, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Doubt

We have had long threads on this before. Suffice to say, that Hitlers belief system was rather flexible. Public statements by the liars that ran Nazi Germany should not be considered as concrete proof of what they believed. Evidence for pagan, christian and atheist ideas can be found for various Nazi leaders.

Hitler is the leader (Fuhrer) we are discussing.

Thunder · 15th January 2010, 06:53 AM

For a Christian audience, Hitler was a Christian.

For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic.

For an atheist audience, Hitler was an atheist.

For a scientific audience, Hitler was a Darwanist.

Hitler simply said whatever would make the audience of the day..happy and willing.

HansMustermann · 15th January 2010, 07:32 AM

And at any rate, it's the same guy who was proclaiming his love of real socialism to the workers (including in the name of the party), while at the same time making deals with the industrialists to give them more power over the workers after he gets to power.

But if we're talking about religious beliefs, generally the thing they seemed to push the most were pre-christian germanic pagan symbols and ideologies, mixed with all sorts of occult woo. The whole idealized master race BS glorified the ancient germanic tribes and virtues.

Especially Himmler and his SS actually wanted to replace Christianity with a "völkisch" (national/racial) paganism based on pre-christian Germanic paganism, and had mystical rituals based on it.

E.g., the twelve-armed "Black Sun" symbol seems to have been very important to him/them, and was included in patterns and mosaics. E.g., in the floor of the Obergruppenführersaal in the Wewelsburg castle, when it was being redesigned into a school for SS officers.

He was by far not the only one, and AFAIK Hitler himself took part in some ceremonies and/or used such symbols and symbolism.

It's hardly the kind of behaviour that you could associate with a straight face with a rabidly devout Christian. If Hitler's hatred of Jews were simply because of his being a devout Christian, then he shouldn't have been more fond of neo-pagans either. But in fact he was.

AvalonXQ · 15th January 2010, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

For a Christian audience, Hitler was a Christian.

For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic.

For an atheist audience, Hitler was an atheist.

For a scientific audience, Hitler was a Darwanist.

Hitler simply said whatever would make the audience of the day..happy and willing.

Obama learned well.

Hux · 15th January 2010, 07:38 AM

Has Obama ever suggested he was not religious?

Thunder · 15th January 2010, 07:40 AM

from Obama....to Hitler. nice guys.

Ladewig · 15th January 2010, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by boyntonstu

Hitler was a self proclaimed Christian.

Many, many other Christians accepted his words.

Did you have some sort of point in starting this thread? I'll wait patiently for an answer because you seem to have gotten yourself suspended for three days.

Ladewig · 15th January 2010, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic.

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Obama learned well.

Obama has referred to himself as a Catholic, an atheist, and a Darwinist?! I'm going to need a citations.

Doubt · 15th January 2010, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by boyntonstu

Hitler is the leader (Fuhrer) we are discussing.

context matters. Hitler's friends and underlings ideas help provide that context.

TSR · 15th January 2010, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

Hitler was 1/4 Jewish. By this standard, he could have come to Israel under the Law of Return, and become an Israeli citizen.

.
Ummmm. No.

Even if one accepts the "quarter Jewish" story, it supposedly came from the paternal side and no one in between was an observant Jew.

So, by the Nuremberg laws, he was part Jewish, by Jewish law he could not have exercised rights under the Law of Return in the absence of conversion.
.

Elizabeth I · 15th January 2010, 10:54 AM

Yawn. This is news to whom?

garethdjb · 15th January 2010, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

Hitler was 1/4 Jewish.

Is this the Alois Hitler's father was a Jew theory? That Alois' mother Maria Schickelgruber worked for a Jew named Leopold Frankenburger in Graz and he was the real father of Alois?

Jews had been expelled from Graz centuries before Alois' birth and weren't allowed to return until some time after his birth. There is, understandably therefore, no record of anyone named Frankenburger living in Graz at that time. Alois' father was almost certainly one of the Hiedler brothers, of whom Georg married Maria when Alois was 5.

Thunder · 15th January 2010, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by TSR

.
So, by the Nuremberg laws, he was part Jewish, by Jewish law he could not have exercised rights under the Law of Return in the absence of conversion.
.

You obviously don't know the Law of Return. Anyone who has one single Jewish grandparent, male or female, may come to Israel and become a citizen, under the Law of Return.

Marquis de Carabas · 15th January 2010, 11:30 AM

Jesus Christ was a Jew!

TSR · 15th January 2010, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

You obviously don't know the Law of Return. Anyone who has one single Jewish grandparent, male or female, may come to Israel and become a citizen, under the Law of Return.

.
It appears that the Law was amended in 1970 to allow for "Jewish ancestry," so you are correct there. Of course, this assumes the story to be correct, and that Hitler survived to the age of 81.
.

headscratcher4 · 15th January 2010, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by garethdjb

Is this the Alois Hitler's father was a Jew theory? That Alois' mother Maria Schickelgruber worked for a Jew named Leopold Frankenburger in Graz and he was the real father of Alois?

Jews had been expelled from Graz centuries before Alois' birth and weren't allowed to return until some time after his birth. There is, understandably therefore, no record of anyone named Frankenburger living in Graz at that time. Alois' father was almost certainly one of the Hiedler brothers, of whom Georg married Maria when Alois was 5.

The bigger problem for Hitler from the Ayran perfection standpoint is that his family was rife with in-breading and more than a little insanity. Cousins married cousins (Alois and Paula were first cousins, I think). Hitler himself was particularly attracted to his half neice.

As to the bigger point...as has been pointed out, there was a rather long discussion of this. Hitler's religious belief were, at best, fluid. Most likely he was only a diest in the largest sense of the word --that he believed the "hand of fate" (god) put him on earth to lead the german people.

He certainly wasn't a practicing Christian by any stretch of the imagination.

So, what is your point? Stalin, too, was broght up by a religious mother and attended a religious high school...your not suggesting that Stalin was orthodox?

I'm just not sure what your point is? Is it that Hitler -- and Nazism -- were christian movements?

What do we glean from your understanding that Hitler was a Christian -- about Hitler? About other Christians?

Marduk · 15th January 2010, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

Jesus Christ was a Jew!

prove it

Marquis de Carabas · 15th January 2010, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Marduk

prove it

You want to see his circumcised wang?

The Fallen Serpent · 15th January 2010, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by TSR

.
It appears that the Law was amended in 1970 to allow for "Jewish ancestry," so you are correct there. Of course, this assumes the story to be correct, and that Hitler survived to the age of 81.
.

The Law of Return was passed in 1950. Regardless of the time frame we are required that Hitler survived past his death for this hypothetical.

Darth Rotor · 15th January 2010, 11:58 AM

Jim Jones was also a Christian. So too was David Koresh.

Being Christian is no proof against being a fool, or dangerous.

Too bad.

TSR · 15th January 2010, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent

The Law of Return was passed in 1950. Regardless of the time frame we are required that Hitler survived past his death for this hypothetical.

.
But originally only included those who were Jewish by Jewish law -- those whose mothers were Jewish or converts. In 1970, it was amended to include those of "Jewish ancestry" and also included spouses of qualified Jews.
.

The Fallen Serpent · 15th January 2010, 12:31 PM

My point was that him surviving to 1950 was no more ludicrous than him surviving until 1970. I would have been mischling under the Nuremburg Laws, even though those laws ceased to exist decades before I was born. It just seemed odd to add that it required Hitler to survive till 81 for this hypothetical to be true, as if surviving to 81 was some how a big impediment when his time of death is a bigger impediment for any time frame. It may be beyond the average lifespan for people of his generation but it is not an unreasonable possibility.

Eyeron · 15th January 2010, 12:40 PM

This argument is really no different than the argument of "Stalin was an atheist so all atheist are scum" crap.

justcharlie09 · 15th January 2010, 12:53 PM

Wow, a whole Godwin thread! Impressive.

The Fallen Serpent · 15th January 2010, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Eyeron

This argument is really no different than the argument of "Stalin was an atheist so all atheist are scum" crap.

In essence, yes. From what I have read the best I could place for Hitler was some form of Deism, possibly with god being more a force than a sentient entity. Even if he were Christian it is not a great idictment of the faith. Even horrible people can agree with a great idea.

Many many Christians did accept his words. So what? Many many Christians did not. Foolishness and bigotry knows no boundaries, not religion, not creed, not ethnicity.

As for the comment about Obama, Hitler was not the only great public speaker in history, nor even recent history. Beyond that, I have to also express incredulity at the idea that Obama is hinting at atheism or catholicism in his speaches to atheists or catholics. As for being a Darwinist (seriously, people generally do not follow Darwin. Evolutionary theory has moved on from his observations, much of which he had no idea about) being a "Darwinist" and being a Christian are not mutually exclusive. I admit I tend to not watch political speeches, so please link me to speeches that banish my doubts.

headscratcher4 · 15th January 2010, 01:01 PM

BTW:

Hitler was a vegitarian.

'nuf said.

Mister Agenda · 15th January 2010, 01:02 PM

I suppose this is ammunition for when some theist trots out Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot as examples of what happens when atheists are in charge, and not actually intended as a smear against Christians. I trust.

Mister Agenda · 15th January 2010, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

For a Christian audience, Hitler was a Christian.

For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic.

For an atheist audience, Hitler was an atheist.

For a scientific audience, Hitler was a Darwanist.

Hitler simply said whatever would make the audience of the day..happy and willing.

Hm, the first two make sense, since Catholics are usually classified as Christians and Hitler was a Catholic. On the third, the only quote I can find Hitler making about atheism is bragging about having stamped out the atheist movement.

Did Hitler really believe in the theory of evolution, or claim to? I seem to remember the Nazis burned Darwin's books in Berlin, and the idea of selective breeding only requires a very slight familiarity with animal husbandry, so the Origin of Species isn't exactly critical information when coming up with eugenics schemes. I'm not saying he didn't agree with Darwin, I'm just asking for evidence that at some point when it was convenient, he claimed to.

Regardless of Hitler's religous and scientific views, the vast majority of the people who elected him and fought for him were Christians. They didn't do this because they were Christians but because they were people ripe for manipulation by the next jingoistic nationalist who came along. All it shows is that communists and muslims don't have the bad guy market sewn up.

dudalb · 15th January 2010, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by justcharlie09

Wow, a whole Godwin thread! Impressive.

Wrong. A Godwin is when Hitler and/or Nazis are dragged into a conversation or a comparasion with The Nazis is made for no good reason .
A discussion in which Hitler and the Nazis are the main and inteded topic is not a Godwin.

MaGZ · 15th January 2010, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

Hitler was 1/4 Jewish. By this standard, he could have come to Israel under the Law of Return, and become an Israeli citizen.

Nevermind the fact that possibly 100,000 1/4, 1/2 Jews, and Germans married to Jews, served in the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe during WW2.

One of the main generals of the Luftwaffe was a half-Jew.

A half-Jew appeared on a Nazi propaganda poster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischlinge

If Hitler was a Jew and if you believe the Holocaust was real then the death of the six million was self-inflicted.

dudalb · 15th January 2010, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by garethdjb

Is this the Alois Hitler's father was a Jew theory? That Alois' mother Maria Schickelgruber worked for a Jew named Leopold Frankenburger in Graz and he was the real father of Alois?

Jews had been expelled from Graz centuries before Alois' birth and weren't allowed to return until some time after his birth. There is, understandably therefore, no record of anyone named Frankenburger living in Graz at that time. Alois' father was almost certainly one of the Hiedler brothers, of whom Georg married Maria when Alois was 5.

The evidence that Hitler had a Jewish Grandparent is very sketchy at best.
I know the Irony of it is enormously appealling, but still, the Hitler was 1/4 Jewish story has got to be rejected as unproven and unlikely.

Wowbagger · 15th January 2010, 01:26 PM

Hitler was an art student!

Ladewig · 15th January 2010, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

If Hitler was a Jew and if you believe the Holocaust was real then the death of the six million was self-inflicted.

And if frogs had wings and ate birds, they would be cannibals.

MaGZ · 15th January 2010, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent

In essence, yes. From what I have read the best I could place for Hitler was some form of Deism, possibly with god being more a force than a sentient entity. Even if he were Christian it is not a great idictment of the faith. Even horrible people can agree with a great idea.

Many many Christians did accept his words. So what? Many many Christians did not. Foolishness and bigotry knows no boundaries, not religion, not creed, not ethnicity.

I think you are close. Hitler referred to a Creator and to God. Jesus rarely was mentioned unless he was referenced to attacking the Jews in the Temple.

jiggeryqua · 15th January 2010, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Wrong. A Godwin is when Hitler and/or Nazis are dragged into a conversation or a comparasion with The Nazis is made for no good reason .
A discussion in which Hitler and the Nazis are the main and inteded topic is not a Godwin.

Surely the main and intended topic is christian-bashing by association with the nazis? Somebody who isn't sozzled might care to come up with a God-win joke.

MaGZ · 15th January 2010, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

The evidence that Hitler had a Jewish Grandparent is very sketchy at best.
I know the Irony of it is enormously appealling, but still, the Hitler was 1/4 Jewish story has got to be rejected as unproven and unlikely.

It would not suprise me that the person who came up with the Hitler was Jewish story was Jewish himself.

15th January 2010, 05:36 AM	#1
boyntonstu Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 916	Hitler was a Christian! "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942) http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm Hitler was a self proclaimed Christian. Many, many other Christians accepted his words.

15th January 2010, 05:47 AM	#3
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Hitler was 1/4 Jewish. By this standard, he could have come to Israel under the Law of Return, and become an Israeli citizen. Nevermind the fact that possibly 100,000 1/4, 1/2 Jews, and Germans married to Jews, served in the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe during WW2. One of the main generals of the Luftwaffe was a half-Jew. A half-Jew appeared on a Nazi propaganda poster. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischlinge
	Last edited by Thunder; 15th January 2010 at 05:56 AM.

15th January 2010, 06:16 AM	#4
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,443	We have had long threads on this before. Suffice to say, that Hitlers belief system was rather flexible. Public statements by the liars that ran Nazi Germany should not be considered as concrete proof of what they believed. Evidence for pagan, christian and atheist ideas can be found for various Nazi leaders.
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,443	__________________ Doubt world tour locations: Mostly home for now. No international travel scheduled other than the Galapagos trip in March. Disclaimer: Not a high energy scientist!

15th January 2010, 07:33 AM	#8
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by parky76 For a Christian audience, Hitler was a Christian. For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic. For an atheist audience, Hitler was an atheist. For a scientific audience, Hitler was a Darwanist. Hitler simply said whatever would make the audience of the day..happy and willing. Obama learned well.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

15th January 2010, 07:38 AM	#9
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	Has Obama ever suggested he was not religious?
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,080	__________________ *...people of faith who are that intelligent they've only managed to fool themselves* - MARDUK

15th January 2010, 05:45 AM	#2
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,804	Hitler also might have qualified as a Jew under his own racial rules. And there's probably a reason why he excluded himself explicitly from his own racial laws

15th January 2010, 06:50 AM	#5
boyntonstu Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 916	Originally Posted by Doubt We have had long threads on this before. Suffice to say, that Hitlers belief system was rather flexible. Public statements by the liars that ran Nazi Germany should not be considered as concrete proof of what they believed. Evidence for pagan, christian and atheist ideas can be found for various Nazi leaders. Hitler is the leader (Fuhrer) we are discussing.

15th January 2010, 06:53 AM	#6
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	For a Christian audience, Hitler was a Christian. For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic. For an atheist audience, Hitler was an atheist. For a scientific audience, Hitler was a Darwanist. Hitler simply said whatever would make the audience of the day..happy and willing.

15th January 2010, 07:32 AM	#7
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,804	And at any rate, it's the same guy who was proclaiming his love of real socialism to the workers (including in the name of the party), while at the same time making deals with the industrialists to give them more power over the workers after he gets to power. But if we're talking about religious beliefs, generally the thing they seemed to push the most were pre-christian germanic pagan symbols and ideologies, mixed with all sorts of occult woo. The whole idealized master race BS glorified the ancient germanic tribes and virtues. Especially Himmler and his SS actually wanted to replace Christianity with a "völkisch" (national/racial) paganism based on pre-christian Germanic paganism, and had mystical rituals based on it. E.g., the twelve-armed "Black Sun" symbol seems to have been very important to him/them, and was included in patterns and mosaics. E.g., in the floor of the Obergruppenführersaal in the Wewelsburg castle, when it was being redesigned into a school for SS officers. He was by far not the only one, and AFAIK Hitler himself took part in some ceremonies and/or used such symbols and symbolism. It's hardly the kind of behaviour that you could associate with a straight face with a rabidly devout Christian. If Hitler's hatred of Jews were simply because of his being a devout Christian, then he shouldn't have been more fond of neo-pagans either. But in fact he was.

15th January 2010, 07:40 AM	#10
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	from Obama....to Hitler. nice guys.

15th January 2010, 07:42 AM	#11
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,786	Originally Posted by boyntonstu Hitler was a self proclaimed Christian. Many, many other Christians accepted his words. Did you have some sort of point in starting this thread? I'll wait patiently for an answer because you seem to have gotten yourself suspended for three days.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

15th January 2010, 07:44 AM	#12
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,786	Originally Posted by parky76 For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic. Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Obama learned well. Obama has referred to himself as a Catholic, an atheist, and a Darwinist?! I'm going to need a citations.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

15th January 2010, 07:48 AM	#13
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,443	Originally Posted by boyntonstu Hitler is the leader (Fuhrer) we are discussing. context matters. Hitler's friends and underlings ideas help provide that context.
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,443	__________________ Doubt world tour locations: Mostly home for now. No international travel scheduled other than the Galapagos trip in March. Disclaimer: Not a high energy scientist!

15th January 2010, 10:51 AM	#14
TSR Do you know what this notorious criminal did? Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4,788	Originally Posted by parky76 Hitler was 1/4 Jewish. By this standard, he could have come to Israel under the Law of Return, and become an Israeli citizen. . Ummmm. No. Even if one accepts the "quarter Jewish" story, it supposedly came from the paternal side and no one in between was an observant Jew. So, by the Nuremberg laws, he was part Jewish, by Jewish law he could not have exercised rights under the Law of Return in the absence of conversion. .
	__________________ My apologies once again for not being allowed to use the obvious shorthand term for a person who knowingly posts untruths. Apparently someone finds that term uncivil, demonstrated and deserved as it is. . "My family is not my weakness, Max. It's my strength." Vince Faraday aka The Cape

15th January 2010, 10:54 AM	#15
Elizabeth I Olympic Equestrian Wannabe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Defending the Alamo Posts: 9,255	Yawn. This is news to whom?
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15th January 2010, 11:14 AM	#16
garethdjb Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 639	Originally Posted by parky76 Hitler was 1/4 Jewish. Is this the Alois Hitler's father was a Jew theory? That Alois' mother Maria Schickelgruber worked for a Jew named Leopold Frankenburger in Graz and he was the real father of Alois? Jews had been expelled from Graz centuries before Alois' birth and weren't allowed to return until some time after his birth. There is, understandably therefore, no record of anyone named Frankenburger living in Graz at that time. Alois' father was almost certainly one of the Hiedler brothers, of whom Georg married Maria when Alois was 5.
garethdjb Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 639

15th January 2010, 11:29 AM	#17
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by TSR . So, by the Nuremberg laws, he was part Jewish, by Jewish law he could not have exercised rights under the Law of Return in the absence of conversion. . You obviously don't know the Law of Return. Anyone who has one single Jewish grandparent, male or female, may come to Israel and become a citizen, under the Law of Return.

15th January 2010, 11:30 AM	#18
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Jesus Christ was a Jew!
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

15th January 2010, 11:35 AM	#19
TSR Do you know what this notorious criminal did? Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4,788	Originally Posted by parky76 You obviously don't know the Law of Return. Anyone who has one single Jewish grandparent, male or female, may come to Israel and become a citizen, under the Law of Return. . It appears that the Law was amended in 1970 to allow for "Jewish ancestry," so you are correct there. Of course, this assumes the story to be correct, and that Hitler survived to the age of 81. .
	__________________ My apologies once again for not being allowed to use the obvious shorthand term for a person who knowingly posts untruths. Apparently someone finds that term uncivil, demonstrated and deserved as it is. . "My family is not my weakness, Max. It's my strength." Vince Faraday aka The Cape

15th January 2010, 11:39 AM	#20
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Originally Posted by garethdjb Is this the Alois Hitler's father was a Jew theory? That Alois' mother Maria Schickelgruber worked for a Jew named Leopold Frankenburger in Graz and he was the real father of Alois? Jews had been expelled from Graz centuries before Alois' birth and weren't allowed to return until some time after his birth. There is, understandably therefore, no record of anyone named Frankenburger living in Graz at that time. Alois' father was almost certainly one of the Hiedler brothers, of whom Georg married Maria when Alois was 5. The bigger problem for Hitler from the Ayran perfection standpoint is that his family was rife with in-breading and more than a little insanity. Cousins married cousins (Alois and Paula were first cousins, I think). Hitler himself was particularly attracted to his half neice. As to the bigger point...as has been pointed out, there was a rather long discussion of this. Hitler's religious belief were, at best, fluid. Most likely he was only a diest in the largest sense of the word --that he believed the "hand of fate" (god) put him on earth to lead the german people. He certainly wasn't a practicing Christian by any stretch of the imagination. So, what is your point? Stalin, too, was broght up by a religious mother and attended a religious high school...your not suggesting that Stalin was orthodox? I'm just not sure what your point is? Is it that Hitler -- and Nazism -- were christian movements? What do we glean from your understanding that Hitler was a Christian -- about Hitler? About other Christians?
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

15th January 2010, 11:39 AM	#21
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas Jesus Christ was a Jew! prove it

15th January 2010, 11:41 AM	#22
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Originally Posted by Marduk prove it You want to see his circumcised wang?
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

15th January 2010, 11:44 AM	#23
The Fallen Serpent Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Not Oregon, Texas Posts: 1,922	Originally Posted by TSR . It appears that the Law was amended in 1970 to allow for "Jewish ancestry," so you are correct there. Of course, this assumes the story to be correct, and that Hitler survived to the age of 81. . The Law of Return was passed in 1950. Regardless of the time frame we are required that Hitler survived past his death for this hypothetical.

15th January 2010, 11:58 AM	#24
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,225	Jim Jones was also a Christian. So too was David Koresh. Being Christian is no proof against being a fool, or dangerous. Too bad.
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

15th January 2010, 12:11 PM	#25
TSR Do you know what this notorious criminal did? Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4,788	Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent The Law of Return was passed in 1950. Regardless of the time frame we are required that Hitler survived past his death for this hypothetical. . But originally only included those who were Jewish by Jewish law -- those whose mothers were Jewish or converts. In 1970, it was amended to include those of "Jewish ancestry" and also included spouses of qualified Jews. .
	__________________ My apologies once again for not being allowed to use the obvious shorthand term for a person who knowingly posts untruths. Apparently someone finds that term uncivil, demonstrated and deserved as it is. . "My family is not my weakness, Max. It's my strength." Vince Faraday aka The Cape

15th January 2010, 12:31 PM	#26
The Fallen Serpent Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Not Oregon, Texas Posts: 1,922	My point was that him surviving to 1950 was no more ludicrous than him surviving until 1970. I would have been mischling under the Nuremburg Laws, even though those laws ceased to exist decades before I was born. It just seemed odd to add that it required Hitler to survive till 81 for this hypothetical to be true, as if surviving to 81 was some how a big impediment when his time of death is a bigger impediment for any time frame. It may be beyond the average lifespan for people of his generation but it is not an unreasonable possibility.

15th January 2010, 12:40 PM	#27
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774	This argument is really no different than the argument of "Stalin was an atheist so all atheist are scum" crap.
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774

15th January 2010, 12:53 PM	#28
justcharlie09 Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 436	Wow, a whole Godwin thread! Impressive.

15th January 2010, 12:56 PM	#29
The Fallen Serpent Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Not Oregon, Texas Posts: 1,922	Originally Posted by Eyeron This argument is really no different than the argument of "Stalin was an atheist so all atheist are scum" crap. In essence, yes. From what I have read the best I could place for Hitler was some form of Deism, possibly with god being more a force than a sentient entity. Even if he were Christian it is not a great idictment of the faith. Even horrible people can agree with a great idea. Many many Christians did accept his words. So what? Many many Christians did not. Foolishness and bigotry knows no boundaries, not religion, not creed, not ethnicity. As for the comment about Obama, Hitler was not the only great public speaker in history, nor even recent history. Beyond that, I have to also express incredulity at the idea that Obama is hinting at atheism or catholicism in his speaches to atheists or catholics. As for being a Darwinist (seriously, people generally do not follow Darwin. Evolutionary theory has moved on from his observations, much of which he had no idea about) being a "Darwinist" and being a Christian are not mutually exclusive. I admit I tend to not watch political speeches, so please link me to speeches that banish my doubts.

15th January 2010, 01:01 PM	#30
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	BTW: Hitler was a vegitarian. 'nuf said.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

15th January 2010, 01:02 PM	#31
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,619	I suppose this is ammunition for when some theist trots out Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot as examples of what happens when atheists are in charge, and not actually intended as a smear against Christians. I trust.

15th January 2010, 01:10 PM	#32
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,619	Originally Posted by parky76 For a Christian audience, Hitler was a Christian. For a Catholic audience, Hitler was a Catholic. For an atheist audience, Hitler was an atheist. For a scientific audience, Hitler was a Darwanist. Hitler simply said whatever would make the audience of the day..happy and willing. Hm, the first two make sense, since Catholics are usually classified as Christians and Hitler was a Catholic. On the third, the only quote I can find Hitler making about atheism is bragging about having stamped out the atheist movement. Did Hitler really believe in the theory of evolution, or claim to? I seem to remember the Nazis burned Darwin's books in Berlin, and the idea of selective breeding only requires a very slight familiarity with animal husbandry, so the Origin of Species isn't exactly critical information when coming up with eugenics schemes. I'm not saying he didn't agree with Darwin, I'm just asking for evidence that at some point when it was convenient, he claimed to. Regardless of Hitler's religous and scientific views, the vast majority of the people who elected him and fought for him were Christians. They didn't do this because they were Christians but because they were people ripe for manipulation by the next jingoistic nationalist who came along. All it shows is that communists and muslims don't have the bad guy market sewn up.

15th January 2010, 01:14 PM	#33
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	Originally Posted by justcharlie09 Wow, a whole Godwin thread! Impressive. Wrong. A Godwin is when Hitler and/or Nazis are dragged into a conversation or a comparasion with The Nazis is made for no good reason . A discussion in which Hitler and the Nazis are the main and inteded topic is not a Godwin.

15th January 2010, 01:16 PM	#34
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319	Originally Posted by parky76 Hitler was 1/4 Jewish. By this standard, he could have come to Israel under the Law of Return, and become an Israeli citizen. Nevermind the fact that possibly 100,000 1/4, 1/2 Jews, and Germans married to Jews, served in the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe during WW2. One of the main generals of the Luftwaffe was a half-Jew. A half-Jew appeared on a Nazi propaganda poster. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischlinge If Hitler was a Jew and if you believe the Holocaust was real then the death of the six million was self-inflicted.
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319

15th January 2010, 01:26 PM	#36
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 13,504	Hitler was an art student!
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!