Syrian immam: Islam commands us to protect Judaism

Thunder · 19th January 2010, 05:34 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1143660.html

is this an indication of a thaw in Syrian-Israeli relations?

sign of things to come?

or will this man be shot in the head in 5 days by Hezbollah.

kerikiwi · 19th January 2010, 09:40 PM

Well, that will really piss off the people who want to present Islam as an unmitigated evil.

Slayhamlet · 19th January 2010, 10:07 PM

This is pretty much a mainstream Islamic position. I don't see what's so special about it.

Skeptic · 19th January 2010, 10:07 PM

The problem with Islam is not that it is unmitigated evil, but that the bad guys call the shot -- mostly against other Muslims. As Parky notes, "Hizbullah kills this guy in a week" is, alas, a very realistic possiblity.

Check MEMRI's web site, which reports what the Arab media is broadcasting. On any give day, you will find that 50% of the reports are of the let's-butcher-the-Jews sort... but that the other 50% are about wanting reform in the Arab and Muslim world. Unfortunately we know who calls the shots.

yairhol · 19th January 2010, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Syrian immam: Islam commands us to protect Judaism

Only not those Jews who live in Israel.

gumboot · 20th January 2010, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1143660.html

is this an indication of a thaw in Syrian-Israeli relations?

sign of things to come?

or will this man be shot in the head in 5 days by Hezbollah.

I doubt it. Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has been quite progressive for a very long time, and hasn't been harmed yet. He has a track record of speaking out against Fundamentalism, Honor Killings, and even called on Jews of Syrian descent to return to Syria, promising them they would get back the property and synagogues they abandoned.

Of course while this is great, Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has no real legal authority in Syria, and Syrian government media such as the daily Tishrin routinely publish images and articles that demonise Jews (and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes and Pigs) and make comparison between Jews and Nazis, also suggesting that Jews and Nazis collaborated in order to exaggerate the nature of the Holocaust.

r0ast_p0tat0es · 20th January 2010, 03:10 AM

Quote:

"If the Prophet Mohammed had asked me to deem Christians or Jews heretics, I would have deemed Mohammed himself a heretic," Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun, the Mufti of Syria, was quoted as telling a delegation of American academics visiting Damascus.

Hassoun, the leader of Syria's majority Sunni Muslim community, also told the delegates that Islam was a religion of peace, adding: "If Mohammed had commanded us to kill people, I would have told him he was not a prophet."

Holy crap, that's brave.

This was a "delegation of Americans", mind you. It's not like he was addressing his congregation.

Skeptic · 20th January 2010, 03:15 AM

I keep thinking that "Radical Islam" is a misnomer. The so-called "Radicals" are actually reactionaries -- wanting to move Islam as a whole back to the 8th century. It is people like this Imam who are the real radical Muslims.

funk de fino · 20th January 2010, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

I keep thinking that "Radical Islam" is a misnomer. The so-called "Radicals" are actually reactionaries -- wanting to move Islam as a whole back to the 8th century. It is people like this Imam who are the real radical Muslims.

Agree with your first point, disagree with your second.

kerikiwi · 20th January 2010, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by yairhol

Only not those Jews who live in Israel.

Nope, he didn't say that.

Skeptic · 20th January 2010, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by funk de fino

Agree with your first point, disagree with your second.

I mean here "radical" in a positive sense -- this is the sort of radical change Islam does need.

bigjelmapro · 24th January 2010, 07:16 AM

Quote:

"Was Moses of Middle Eastern or European descent? Was Jesus a Protestant or a Catholic? Was Mohammed Shi'ite or Sunni?"

Apparently he's trying to pull a quick one on us Westerner dhimmis.

As his address to the EU last year, I don't see this as much of anything besides a boatload of useless rhetoric. Not much different than the rhetoric heard in politics.

Any concrete solutions to provide? I haven't seen, heard or read any from this guy.

They are definitely different than the hate spewed from the Hamas HQ in Damascus, or Hezbollah in Lebanon, but as to its use is beyond me...

Dragoonster · 24th January 2010, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

The problem with Islam is not that it is unmitigated evil, but that the bad guys call the shot -- mostly against other Muslims. As Parky notes, "Hizbullah kills this guy in a week" is, alas, a very realistic possiblity.

Is it? Can you give examples of Hezbollah killing other progressive Imams? Or any radical Islamists doing that? I haven't heard of this but may be very ignorant.

GreNME · 24th January 2010, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

I doubt it. Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has been quite progressive for a very long time, and hasn't been harmed yet. He has a track record of speaking out against Fundamentalism, Honor Killings, and even called on Jews of Syrian descent to return to Syria, promising them they would get back the property and synagogues they abandoned.

Of course while this is great, Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has no real legal authority in Syria, and Syrian government media such as the daily Tishrin routinely publish images and articles that demonise Jews (and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes and Pigs) and make comparison between Jews and Nazis, also suggesting that Jews and Nazis collaborated in order to exaggerate the nature of the Holocaust.

What you're describing here is a political fight taking place in nations like Syria (and Jordan and Egypt and Lebanon) between the more progressive factions and the more violent, reactionary ones. Yes, the assessment at this time is that the reactionary and violent ones currently have the upper hand due to volume and using the Israel/Palestine issue to cash in political capital. What this does, though, is change the face of the problems regarding "radical Islam" to being one less about religion and more about politics and diplomatic achievements (of which there has been few successes over the last 50-60 years), and it underscores why the Israel/Palestine conflict is a pretty big deal in terms of establishing a Mid-East the rest of the world can deal diplomatically with.

-----

Originally Posted by r0ast_p0tat0es

Holy crap, that's brave.

This was a "delegation of Americans", mind you. It's not like he was addressing his congregation.

You're under the wrong impression if you believe that imams have "congregations" like a preacher or priest do. An imam is basically a religious scholar, not a preacher. That's why there are so many imams that seem to fancy making all sorts of statements publicly, and much of the media seems to mistakenly identify these guys as having more significance overall than they really have (much like fatwas).

bigjelmapro · 24th January 2010, 10:56 PM

GreNME, this guy holds the position of grand Mufti, not your run in the mill imam status. There's usually 1 grand Mufti per country, so his position does hold significance. His congregation at this point, whom he does hold measurable influence over, is all of the Syrian Sunni population, if not beyond these borders depending on how he's view in the Islamic uhmmah overall.

GreNME · 25th January 2010, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

GreNME, this guy holds the position of grand Mufti, not your run in the mill imam status. There's usually 1 grand Mufti per country, so his position does hold significance. His congregation at this point, whom he does hold measurable influence over, is all of the Syrian Sunni population, if not beyond these borders depending on how he's view in the Islamic uhmmah overall.

You're inflating his importance. A Mufti is essentially something between the (ecumenical) scholarly status of a cardinal and the influential status of a laureate. This isn't to mean that what he has to say isn't important, but that the habit of many people either over-selling or under-selling the importance of these guys gets more obvious every time these discussions come up.

Dragoonster · 25th January 2010, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

You're inflating his importance. A Mufti is essentially something between the (ecumenical) scholarly status of a cardinal and the influential status of a laureate. This isn't to mean that what he has to say isn't important, but that the habit of many people either over-selling or under-selling the importance of these guys gets more obvious every time these discussions come up.

Part of the importance is in American perception of the importance, considering a lot of the Arab world has been affected as much (or at least heavily) by the external force of the US as their internal forces. And considering the large-scale ignorance behind some US perceptions. If an Iranian imam said something that revolutionized Iranian society, that would be great for Iran. If one said something that revolutionized American perception of Iran/arabs/US foreign policy, even if through American misinterpretation of his statement or level of importance in Iran, that might be even better for Iran or the entire region.

GreNME · 25th January 2010, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Dragoonster

Part of the importance is in American perception of the importance, considering a lot of the Arab world has been affected as much (or at least heavily) by the external force of the US as their internal forces. And considering the large-scale ignorance behind some US perceptions. If an Iranian imam said something that revolutionized Iranian society, that would be great for Iran. If one said something that revolutionized American perception of Iran/arabs/US foreign policy, even if through American misinterpretation of his statement or level of importance in Iran, that might be even better for Iran or the entire region.

That's a good point. It also is unfortunate that more information about the growing Green Movement isn't getting attention outside of Iran, considering there are many outspoken members of that movement who have far more actual political capital and social influence than Hassoun.

Undesired Walrus · 25th January 2010, 02:12 PM

Why rely on what religion tells you? Is the Immam saying that if Islam commanded Muslims to destroy Judaism they should?

bigjelmapro · 26th January 2010, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

You're inflating his importance. A Mufti is essentially something between the (ecumenical) scholarly status of a cardinal and the influential status of a laureate. This isn't to mean that what he has to say isn't important, but that the habit of many people either over-selling or under-selling the importance of these guys gets more obvious every time these discussions come up.

Grand mufti has one per country. A vanilla mufti is a bit different. One cannot achieve the level of Grant Mufti without the support of the brunt of the Islamic uhmmah within that specific country. Within in these countries their influence would be great within the religious community.

Who are you referring to 'many people' here? Us Westerners/dhimmis or those that actually follow the teachings/statements/fatwas of Grand Muftis? If its the prior, I don't see how that's even relevant. We don't even understand or know the fatwas or overall teachings these Grand Muftis present other than the statements they make in English in public Western places.

Thunder · 26th January 2010, 06:55 AM

I don't think the Jews or the Muslims have a great track record when it comes to protecting each other. Muslims have destroyed many synagogues and Jews have destroyed many mosques.

This is why I pray that a big earthquake swallows all of Palestine.

GreNME · 26th January 2010, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

Grand mufti has one per country. A vanilla mufti is a bit different. One cannot achieve the level of Grant Mufti without the support of the brunt of the Islamic uhmmah within that specific country. Within in these countries their influence would be great within the religious community.

Who are you referring to 'many people' here? Us Westerners/dhimmis or those that actually follow the teachings/statements/fatwas of Grand Muftis? If its the prior, I don't see how that's even relevant. We don't even understand or know the fatwas or overall teachings these Grand Muftis present other than the statements they make in English in public Western places.

I know what you're talking about, but I'm saying that these guys don't have the actual influence-- whether political or doctrinal/ecumenical-- that what you describe implies. They don't hold a public trust or have decrees which affect doctrinal behavior. Nine out of ten times when one of these muftis (or imams or ayatollahs or whatever) says something on an issue like this, the average, everyday Muslim is going to shrug and go about their daily lives and be no more or less pious for doing so. This is why you have such a breadth of different types of statements from scholars of all sorts on issues ranging from international politics to local news.

If it helps, compare it to how much actual influence a statement from the local diocese beginning with the spokesman saying "I believe..." would be to the Catholic faith. The structure isn't the same, but the level of import pretty much is.

cwalner · 26th January 2010, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

... and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes ...

So, evolution is a myth? Are you a closet creationist?

[yeah, out of context, but I could not resist]

Thunder · 26th January 2010, 12:13 PM

Actually.....Jews, apes, and pigs...do have a common ancestor.

so in some way, that quote is correct.

bigjelmapro · 29th January 2010, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

I don't think the Jews or the Muslims have a great track record when it comes to protecting each other. Muslims have destroyed many synagogues and Jews have destroyed many mosques.

Moral equivalence. The latter bit is unfounded, but not surprising in your attempts to equate two different religions and their history to justify your ridiculous assertions.

Quote:

This is why I pray that a big earthquake swallows all of Palestine.

Out of sight, out of mind. However, your obsessive behavior regarding this region would make it extremely difficult to do so on your part..

bigjelmapro · 29th January 2010, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

Actually.....Jews, apes, and pigs...do have a common ancestor.

so in some way, that quote is correct.

There's a Quranic verse regarding this allegation of equating Jews to apes and pigs. It has to do with those not observing the sabbath and has little to do with evolution, which to my knowledge, didn't exist at the period of the writing of the Quran.

Whiplash · 29th January 2010, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

Actually.....Jews, apes, and pigs...do have a common ancestor.

so in some way, that quote is correct.

Why am I reminded of the scene in Inglourious Basterds where Col.Landa is describing how to "think like a Jew" based on their shared heritage with rats.

GreNME · 29th January 2010, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

There's a Quranic verse regarding this allegation of equating Jews to apes and pigs. It has to do with those not observing the sabbath and has little to do with evolution, which to my knowledge, didn't exist at the period of the writing of the Quran.

Cite the verse. I have a Koran right here, so I can verify it for you in Arabic and English. Be sure to check the verses before and after the ones you cite as well.

bigjelmapro · 30th January 2010, 12:42 AM

Who doesn't have a Quran? Got the Sales edition myself. Plenty of online editions as well, ie: http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

There's plenty of articles regarding this story of transformation of Jews to apes/pigs if they break the sabbath online. Here's one that combines the brunt of those verses:

Allah's special little apes and pigs

Does this reply have to do with me somehow stating that this is a farce and is not a common interpretation amongst those Muslim preachers who choose to apply these verses to the Jewish population?

And no absolutist rebuttals please.

mikeyx · 30th January 2010, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

I doubt it. Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has been quite progressive for a very long time, and hasn't been harmed yet. He has a track record of speaking out against Fundamentalism, Honor Killings, and even called on Jews of Syrian descent to return to Syria, promising them they would get back the property and synagogues they abandoned.

Of course while this is great, Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has no real legal authority in Syria, and Syrian government media such as the daily Tishrin routinely publish images and articles that demonise Jews (and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes and Pigs) and make comparison between Jews and Nazis, also suggesting that Jews and Nazis collaborated in order to exaggerate the nature of the Holocaust.

so like theres a diversity there as much as christianity, go figure...

kerikiwi · 30th January 2010, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

... evolution, which to my knowledge, didn't exist at the period of the writing of the Quran.

It didn't?

bigjelmapro · 31st January 2010, 07:48 AM

Theory of evolution that is, unless Mohammed had a crystal ball and also claimed that Darwin was a true Muslim, as he did with Moses, Jesus and Alexander the Great to name a few.

GreNME · 1st February 2010, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

Who doesn't have a Quran? Got the Sales edition myself. Plenty of online editions as well, ie: http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

There's plenty of articles regarding this story of transformation of Jews to apes/pigs if they break the sabbath online. Here's one that combines the brunt of those verses:

Allah's special little apes and pigs

Does this reply have to do with me somehow stating that this is a farce and is not a common interpretation amongst those Muslim preachers who choose to apply these verses to the Jewish population?

And no absolutist rebuttals please.

Ah, so you take the Christian-promoted interpretation (sans the open Christianity, of course) and expect that to be taken seriously? Read the passages mentioned in that article, and in every case you'll see that what's being explained is a punishment being carried out on "sinners" (regardless of what you or I consider sinful, obviously). This is (contextually) not much different than in the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament, where Jesus takes demons out of a possessed guy and puts them into a herd of swine. That's not only the more common interpretation, it's also what the vast majority of Muslims on the planet tend to believe. Taking radical militants who've injected politics into their interpretations and using that as if it were somehow the baseline on Muslim theology not only displays a staggering level of ignorance but also an overwhelming arrogance that making up your own interpretation and only accepting those that coincide with your preconceived notions seems like a rational analysis.

MikeMangum · 1st February 2010, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

Yes, the assessment at this time is that the reactionary and violent ones currently have the upper hand due to volume and using the Israel/Palestine issue to cash in political capital. What this does, though, is change the face of the problems regarding "radical Islam" to being one less about religion and more about politics...

The problem with that assessment is that Islam is religion AND politics. There is no seperating the two in Islam. The Caliph is both the head of state and the high priest, with complete secular and religious authority. That's why it is possible for a nation to have the Quran as it's constitution.

GreNME · 1st February 2010, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by MikeMangum

The problem with that assessment is that Islam is religion AND politics. There is no seperating the two in Islam. The Caliph is both the head of state and the high priest, with complete secular and religious authority. That's why it is possible for a nation to have the Quran as it's constitution.

That is certainly a problem with the assessment I'm criticizing, but not with my own. I don't know if you realize it, but the US Supreme Court has both Moses and Muhammad represented on it's courthouse as influential lawmakers.

The problem is that this fake interpretation about what Islam supposedly thinks of Jews and Christians takes a foreign concept and constructs its own model based on Western concepts and assumes that this is how Muslims think. It makes as much sense as accepting pre-Rosetta Stone interpretations of Egyptian hieroglyphs as factual translation-- it's just plain incorrect and creates a caricature.

19th January 2010, 05:34 PM	#1
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Syrian immam: Islam commands us to protect Judaism http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1143660.html is this an indication of a thaw in Syrian-Israeli relations? sign of things to come? or will this man be shot in the head in 5 days by Hezbollah.

19th January 2010, 11:33 PM	#5
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Quote: Syrian immam: Islam commands us to protect Judaism Only not those Jews who live in Israel.
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

20th January 2010, 01:39 AM	#6
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,110	Originally Posted by parky76 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1143660.html is this an indication of a thaw in Syrian-Israeli relations? sign of things to come? or will this man be shot in the head in 5 days by Hezbollah. I doubt it. Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has been quite progressive for a very long time, and hasn't been harmed yet. He has a track record of speaking out against Fundamentalism, Honor Killings, and even called on Jews of Syrian descent to return to Syria, promising them they would get back the property and synagogues they abandoned. Of course while this is great, Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has no real legal authority in Syria, and Syrian government media such as the daily Tishrin routinely publish images and articles that demonise Jews (and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes and Pigs) and make comparison between Jews and Nazis, also suggesting that Jews and Nazis collaborated in order to exaggerate the nature of the Holocaust.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

20th January 2010, 09:18 AM	#9
funk de fino Dreaming of unicorns Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alba Posts: 10,789	Originally Posted by Skeptic I keep thinking that "Radical Islam" is a misnomer. The so-called "Radicals" are actually reactionaries -- wanting to move Islam as a whole back to the 8th century. It is people like this Imam who are the real radical Muslims. Agree with your first point, disagree with your second.
	__________________ Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. Christopher 7 - There is no need to contact them for conformation. That is just a denial tactic

24th January 2010, 07:16 AM	#12
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Quote: "Was Moses of Middle Eastern or European descent? Was Jesus a Protestant or a Catholic? Was Mohammed Shi'ite or Sunni?" Apparently he's trying to pull a quick one on us Westerner dhimmis. As his address to the EU last year, I don't see this as much of anything besides a boatload of useless rhetoric. Not much different than the rhetoric heard in politics. Any concrete solutions to provide? I haven't seen, heard or read any from this guy. They are definitely different than the hate spewed from the Hamas HQ in Damascus, or Hezbollah in Lebanon, but as to its use is beyond me...
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

19th January 2010, 09:40 PM	#2
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,844	Well, that will really piss off the people who want to present Islam as an unmitigated evil.

19th January 2010, 10:07 PM	#3
Slayhamlet Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,427	This is pretty much a mainstream Islamic position. I don't see what's so special about it.

19th January 2010, 10:07 PM	#4
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	The problem with Islam is not that it is unmitigated evil, but that the bad guys call the shot -- mostly against other Muslims. As Parky notes, "Hizbullah kills this guy in a week" is, alas, a very realistic possiblity. Check MEMRI's web site, which reports what the Arab media is broadcasting. On any give day, you will find that 50% of the reports are of the let's-butcher-the-Jews sort... but that the other 50% are about wanting reform in the Arab and Muslim world. Unfortunately we know who calls the shots.

20th January 2010, 03:10 AM	#7
r0ast_p0tat0es Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 190	Quote: "If the Prophet Mohammed had asked me to deem Christians or Jews heretics, I would have deemed Mohammed himself a heretic," Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun, the Mufti of Syria, was quoted as telling a delegation of American academics visiting Damascus. Hassoun, the leader of Syria's majority Sunni Muslim community, also told the delegates that Islam was a religion of peace, adding: "If Mohammed had commanded us to kill people, I would have told him he was not a prophet." Holy crap, that's brave. This was a "delegation of Americans", mind you. It's not like he was addressing his congregation.

20th January 2010, 03:15 AM	#8
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	I keep thinking that "Radical Islam" is a misnomer. The so-called "Radicals" are actually reactionaries -- wanting to move Islam as a whole back to the 8th century. It is people like this Imam who are the real radical Muslims.

20th January 2010, 09:22 AM	#10
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,844	Originally Posted by yairhol Only not those Jews who live in Israel. Nope, he didn't say that.

20th January 2010, 01:01 PM	#11
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by funk de fino Agree with your first point, disagree with your second. I mean here "radical" in a positive sense -- this is the sort of radical change Islam does need.

24th January 2010, 07:40 AM	#13
Dragoonster Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,583	Originally Posted by Skeptic The problem with Islam is not that it is unmitigated evil, but that the bad guys call the shot -- mostly against other Muslims. As Parky notes, "Hizbullah kills this guy in a week" is, alas, a very realistic possiblity. Is it? Can you give examples of Hezbollah killing other progressive Imams? Or any radical Islamists doing that? I haven't heard of this but may be very ignorant.

24th January 2010, 11:09 AM	#14
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by gumboot I doubt it. Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has been quite progressive for a very long time, and hasn't been harmed yet. He has a track record of speaking out against Fundamentalism, Honor Killings, and even called on Jews of Syrian descent to return to Syria, promising them they would get back the property and synagogues they abandoned. Of course while this is great, Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has no real legal authority in Syria, and Syrian government media such as the daily Tishrin routinely publish images and articles that demonise Jews (and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes and Pigs) and make comparison between Jews and Nazis, also suggesting that Jews and Nazis collaborated in order to exaggerate the nature of the Holocaust. What you're describing here is a political fight taking place in nations like Syria (and Jordan and Egypt and Lebanon) between the more progressive factions and the more violent, reactionary ones. Yes, the assessment at this time is that the reactionary and violent ones currently have the upper hand due to volume and using the Israel/Palestine issue to cash in political capital. What this does, though, is change the face of the problems regarding "radical Islam" to being one less about religion and more about politics and diplomatic achievements (of which there has been few successes over the last 50-60 years), and it underscores why the Israel/Palestine conflict is a pretty big deal in terms of establishing a Mid-East the rest of the world can deal diplomatically with. ----- Originally Posted by r0ast_p0tat0es Holy crap, that's brave. This was a "delegation of Americans", mind you. It's not like he was addressing his congregation. You're under the wrong impression if you believe that imams have "congregations" like a preacher or priest do. An imam is basically a religious scholar, not a preacher. That's why there are so many imams that seem to fancy making all sorts of statements publicly, and much of the media seems to mistakenly identify these guys as having more significance overall than they really have (much like fatwas).
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

24th January 2010, 10:56 PM	#15
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	GreNME, this guy holds the position of grand Mufti, not your run in the mill imam status. There's usually 1 grand Mufti per country, so his position does hold significance. His congregation at this point, whom he does hold measurable influence over, is all of the Syrian Sunni population, if not beyond these borders depending on how he's view in the Islamic uhmmah overall.
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

25th January 2010, 08:35 AM	#16
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro GreNME, this guy holds the position of grand Mufti, not your run in the mill imam status. There's usually 1 grand Mufti per country, so his position does hold significance. His congregation at this point, whom he does hold measurable influence over, is all of the Syrian Sunni population, if not beyond these borders depending on how he's view in the Islamic uhmmah overall. You're inflating his importance. A Mufti is essentially something between the (ecumenical) scholarly status of a cardinal and the influential status of a laureate. This isn't to mean that what he has to say isn't important, but that the habit of many people either over-selling or under-selling the importance of these guys gets more obvious every time these discussions come up.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

25th January 2010, 11:37 AM	#17
Dragoonster Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,583	Originally Posted by GreNME You're inflating his importance. A Mufti is essentially something between the (ecumenical) scholarly status of a cardinal and the influential status of a laureate. This isn't to mean that what he has to say isn't important, but that the habit of many people either over-selling or under-selling the importance of these guys gets more obvious every time these discussions come up. Part of the importance is in American perception of the importance, considering a lot of the Arab world has been affected as much (or at least heavily) by the external force of the US as their internal forces. And considering the large-scale ignorance behind some US perceptions. If an Iranian imam said something that revolutionized Iranian society, that would be great for Iran. If one said something that revolutionized American perception of Iran/arabs/US foreign policy, even if through American misinterpretation of his statement or level of importance in Iran, that might be even better for Iran or the entire region.

25th January 2010, 02:05 PM	#18
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by Dragoonster Part of the importance is in American perception of the importance, considering a lot of the Arab world has been affected as much (or at least heavily) by the external force of the US as their internal forces. And considering the large-scale ignorance behind some US perceptions. If an Iranian imam said something that revolutionized Iranian society, that would be great for Iran. If one said something that revolutionized American perception of Iran/arabs/US foreign policy, even if through American misinterpretation of his statement or level of importance in Iran, that might be even better for Iran or the entire region. That's a good point. It also is unfortunate that more information about the growing Green Movement isn't getting attention outside of Iran, considering there are many outspoken members of that movement who have far more actual political capital and social influence than Hassoun.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

25th January 2010, 02:12 PM	#19
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,884	Why rely on what religion tells you? Is the Immam saying that if Islam commanded Muslims to destroy Judaism they should?
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

26th January 2010, 06:49 AM	#20
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Originally Posted by GreNME You're inflating his importance. A Mufti is essentially something between the (ecumenical) scholarly status of a cardinal and the influential status of a laureate. This isn't to mean that what he has to say isn't important, but that the habit of many people either over-selling or under-selling the importance of these guys gets more obvious every time these discussions come up. Grand mufti has one per country. A vanilla mufti is a bit different. One cannot achieve the level of Grant Mufti without the support of the brunt of the Islamic uhmmah within that specific country. Within in these countries their influence would be great within the religious community. Who are you referring to 'many people' here? Us Westerners/dhimmis or those that actually follow the teachings/statements/fatwas of Grand Muftis? If its the prior, I don't see how that's even relevant. We don't even understand or know the fatwas or overall teachings these Grand Muftis present other than the statements they make in English in public Western places.
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

26th January 2010, 06:55 AM	#21
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	I don't think the Jews or the Muslims have a great track record when it comes to protecting each other. Muslims have destroyed many synagogues and Jews have destroyed many mosques. This is why I pray that a big earthquake swallows all of Palestine.

26th January 2010, 10:24 AM	#22
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro Grand mufti has one per country. A vanilla mufti is a bit different. One cannot achieve the level of Grant Mufti without the support of the brunt of the Islamic uhmmah within that specific country. Within in these countries their influence would be great within the religious community. Who are you referring to 'many people' here? Us Westerners/dhimmis or those that actually follow the teachings/statements/fatwas of Grand Muftis? If its the prior, I don't see how that's even relevant. We don't even understand or know the fatwas or overall teachings these Grand Muftis present other than the statements they make in English in public Western places. I know what you're talking about, but I'm saying that these guys don't have the actual influence-- whether political or doctrinal/ecumenical-- that what you describe implies. They don't hold a public trust or have decrees which affect doctrinal behavior. Nine out of ten times when one of these muftis (or imams or ayatollahs or whatever) says something on an issue like this, the average, everyday Muslim is going to shrug and go about their daily lives and be no more or less pious for doing so. This is why you have such a breadth of different types of statements from scholars of all sorts on issues ranging from international politics to local news. If it helps, compare it to how much actual influence a statement from the local diocese beginning with the spokesman saying "I believe..." would be to the Catholic faith. The structure isn't the same, but the level of import pretty much is.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

26th January 2010, 11:20 AM	#23
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,694	Originally Posted by gumboot ... and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes ... So, evolution is a myth? Are you a closet creationist? [yeah, out of context, but I could not resist]
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

26th January 2010, 12:13 PM	#24
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Actually.....Jews, apes, and pigs...do have a common ancestor. so in some way, that quote is correct.

29th January 2010, 08:17 AM	#25
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Originally Posted by parky76 I don't think the Jews or the Muslims have a great track record when it comes to protecting each other. Muslims have destroyed many synagogues and Jews have destroyed many mosques. Moral equivalence. The latter bit is unfounded, but not surprising in your attempts to equate two different religions and their history to justify your ridiculous assertions. Quote: This is why I pray that a big earthquake swallows all of Palestine. Out of sight, out of mind. However, your obsessive behavior regarding this region would make it extremely difficult to do so on your part..
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

29th January 2010, 08:18 AM	#26
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Originally Posted by parky76 Actually.....Jews, apes, and pigs...do have a common ancestor. so in some way, that quote is correct. There's a Quranic verse regarding this allegation of equating Jews to apes and pigs. It has to do with those not observing the sabbath and has little to do with evolution, which to my knowledge, didn't exist at the period of the writing of the Quran.
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

29th January 2010, 08:21 AM	#27
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 5,389	Originally Posted by parky76 Actually.....Jews, apes, and pigs...do have a common ancestor. so in some way, that quote is correct. Why am I reminded of the scene in Inglourious Basterds where Col.Landa is describing how to "think like a Jew" based on their shared heritage with rats.
	__________________ Ken Buddha.. a smile, two bangs, and a religion. On the ricochet.. it's gonna hit you. It's always funny until someone gets hurt.

29th January 2010, 09:06 AM	#28
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro There's a Quranic verse regarding this allegation of equating Jews to apes and pigs. It has to do with those not observing the sabbath and has little to do with evolution, which to my knowledge, didn't exist at the period of the writing of the Quran. Cite the verse. I have a Koran right here, so I can verify it for you in Arabic and English. Be sure to check the verses before and after the ones you cite as well.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

30th January 2010, 12:42 AM	#29
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Who doesn't have a Quran? Got the Sales edition myself. Plenty of online editions as well, ie: http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/ There's plenty of articles regarding this story of transformation of Jews to apes/pigs if they break the sabbath online. Here's one that combines the brunt of those verses: Allah's special little apes and pigs Does this reply have to do with me somehow stating that this is a farce and is not a common interpretation amongst those Muslim preachers who choose to apply these verses to the Jewish population? And no absolutist rebuttals please.
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

30th January 2010, 12:17 PM	#30
mikeyx Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,570	Originally Posted by gumboot I doubt it. Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has been quite progressive for a very long time, and hasn't been harmed yet. He has a track record of speaking out against Fundamentalism, Honor Killings, and even called on Jews of Syrian descent to return to Syria, promising them they would get back the property and synagogues they abandoned. Of course while this is great, Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun has no real legal authority in Syria, and Syrian government media such as the daily Tishrin routinely publish images and articles that demonise Jews (and repeat old myths such as Jews descending from Apes and Pigs) and make comparison between Jews and Nazis, also suggesting that Jews and Nazis collaborated in order to exaggerate the nature of the Holocaust. so like theres a diversity there as much as christianity, go figure...
mikeyx Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,570

30th January 2010, 09:32 PM	#31
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,844	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro ... evolution, which to my knowledge, didn't exist at the period of the writing of the Quran. It didn't?

31st January 2010, 07:48 AM	#32
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Theory of evolution that is, unless Mohammed had a crystal ball and also claimed that Darwin was a true Muslim, as he did with Moses, Jesus and Alexander the Great to name a few.
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

1st February 2010, 04:34 PM	#33
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro Who doesn't have a Quran? Got the Sales edition myself. Plenty of online editions as well, ie: http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/ There's plenty of articles regarding this story of transformation of Jews to apes/pigs if they break the sabbath online. Here's one that combines the brunt of those verses: Allah's special little apes and pigs Does this reply have to do with me somehow stating that this is a farce and is not a common interpretation amongst those Muslim preachers who choose to apply these verses to the Jewish population? And no absolutist rebuttals please. Ah, so you take the Christian-promoted interpretation (sans the open Christianity, of course) and expect that to be taken seriously? Read the passages mentioned in that article, and in every case you'll see that what's being explained is a punishment being carried out on "sinners" (regardless of what you or I consider sinful, obviously). This is (contextually) not much different than in the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament, where Jesus takes demons out of a possessed guy and puts them into a herd of swine. That's not only the more common interpretation, it's also what the vast majority of Muslims on the planet tend to believe. Taking radical militants who've injected politics into their interpretations and using that as if it were somehow the baseline on Muslim theology not only displays a staggering level of ignorance but also an overwhelming arrogance that making up your own interpretation and only accepting those that coincide with your preconceived notions seems like a rational analysis.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

1st February 2010, 05:02 PM	#34
MikeMangum Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,725	Originally Posted by GreNME Yes, the assessment at this time is that the reactionary and violent ones currently have the upper hand due to volume and using the Israel/Palestine issue to cash in political capital. What this does, though, is change the face of the problems regarding "radical Islam" to being one less about religion and more about politics... The problem with that assessment is that Islam is religion AND politics. There is no seperating the two in Islam. The Caliph is both the head of state and the high priest, with complete secular and religious authority. That's why it is possible for a nation to have the Quran as it's constitution.

1st February 2010, 05:09 PM	#35
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by MikeMangum The problem with that assessment is that Islam is religion AND politics. There is no seperating the two in Islam. The Caliph is both the head of state and the high priest, with complete secular and religious authority. That's why it is possible for a nation to have the Quran as it's constitution. That is certainly a problem with the assessment I'm criticizing, but not with my own. I don't know if you realize it, but the US Supreme Court has both Moses and Muhammad represented on it's courthouse as influential lawmakers. The problem is that this fake interpretation about what Islam supposedly thinks of Jews and Christians takes a foreign concept and constructs its own model based on Western concepts and assumes that this is how Muslims think. It makes as much sense as accepting pre-Rosetta Stone interpretations of Egyptian hieroglyphs as factual translation-- it's just plain incorrect and creates a caricature.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}