Export ban for useless 'bomb detector'

scissorhands · 22nd January 2010, 10:01 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ht/8471187.stm

Im appalled.
Reading this article was a jaw dropping experience, its incredible that these devices have been being sold with no scientific evidence that they even work.
I notice a reference to Randis million dollar challenge in the article, what is the story behind this?

The Atheist · 22nd January 2010, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by scissorhands

... what is the story behind this?

It was in Randi's swift recently and has ben discussed in threads.

It's a predictable result of free market policies.

Vic Vega · 22nd January 2010, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

It's a predictable result of free market policies.

No, it's a predictable result of a swindler finding some easy marks.

The Atheist · 22nd January 2010, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Vic Vega

No, it's a predictable result of a swindler finding some easy marks.

Which is only possible because free markets exist.

Jaggy Bunnet · 22nd January 2010, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Which is only possible because free markets exist.

Nonsense. Fraud is just as possible in other systems.

Soapy Sam · 22nd January 2010, 01:01 PM

Read This thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=128253&page=4

MikeMangum · 22nd January 2010, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Which is only possible because free markets exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

scissorhands · 22nd January 2010, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Read This thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=128253&page=4

Thanks for that.
McCormick is being investigated for fraudulent description of his product.
Almost as if we were simply talking about a fraudulent claim for better suction on a vacuum cleaner.
This man has many peoples blood on his hands.

Questioninggeller · 22nd January 2010, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

It was in Randi's swift recently and has ben discussed in threads.

Yeah, they threatened to sue Randi for his criticism too.

Quote:

...
The Iraqi government has spent $85m on the ADE-651 and there are concerns that they have failed to stop bomb attacks that have killed hundreds of people.
...

Source

No criminal charges?

HarryHenderson · 23rd January 2010, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

...It's a predictable result of free market policies.

Is that a little 'highlight' heard in a lecture somewhere?

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Which is only possible because free markets exist.

Okay I'll bite (and go OT), what exactly (are you talking about that) "is only possible because free markets exist"? Evil?

Regardless, it's all Obama's fault.

biomorph · 23rd January 2010, 12:43 AM

according to
AD651 effectiveness

Quote:

Iraq (Baghdad): 80 units of ADE651™ were sold to the Iraqi Ministry of Interior

and

Quote:

The Iraqi government has spent $85m on the ADE-651 and there are concerns that they have failed to stop bomb attacks that have killed hundreds of people.

Just over a million each then?

Really?

biomorph · 23rd January 2010, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Which is only possible because free markets exist.

Really,?

Not sure about that........

Jaggy Bunnet · 23rd January 2010, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by biomorph

Just over a million each then?

Really?

$40k each accord to this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8476381.stm

which also reports the arrest of a director of ATSC on suspicion of fraud by misrepresentation.

This could get interesting.

biomorph · 23rd January 2010, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet

$40k each accord to this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8476381.stm

which also reports the arrest of a director of ATSC on suspicion of fraud by misrepresentation.

This could get interesting.

Yes very interesting, I agree.

Prices subject to change, hah!

I can imagine there's a few red faces amongst the purchasers of the thing now.

This could run and run.....

zooterkin · 23rd January 2010, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by biomorph

according to
AD651 effectiveness

The BBC reports refer to 'thousands' of the devices being sold to Iraq.

Originally Posted by biomorph

I can imagine there's a few red faces amongst the purchasers of the thing now.

It is mind-boggling that so much money can be spent on something clearly so worthless; I'm not sure what that says about the people making the decisions.

Luckily for Jim McCormick, the regimes he's sold this thing to are all peace-loving and unlikely to send a hit-squad after him for making them look stupid. Oh, wait...

Cactus Wren · 23rd January 2010, 01:20 AM

Quote:

And policemen manning checkpoints in Baghdad have told the BBC that you need to be relaxed to use the ADE-651 and that it does not work properly if the user is stressed or has a high heart rate.

In other words, the message which has got through to the frontlines is - if it does not work, blame the operator not the device.

"The device was giving a reading for the wrong person! It was showing a reading for the attendant out in the parking lot!"

Jaggy Bunnet · 23rd January 2010, 01:35 AM

Quote:

you need to be relaxed to use the ADE-651 and that it does not work properly if the user is stressed or has a high heart rate.

Not wishing to be picky, but isn't this a fairly important drawback in a device that claims to be a bomb detector? I would imagine that users looking for bombs probably have a level of stress and a heart rate above average.

Of course it must be a manufacturers dream when your customers give you the credit when it "works" but not the blame when it doesn't. At least if you are a crook who doesn't care that you are supplying non functioning equipment that leads to innocent people being killed.

Jaggy Bunnet · 23rd January 2010, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Luckily for Jim McCormick, the regimes he's sold this thing to are all peace-loving and unlikely to send a hit-squad after him for making them look stupid. Oh, wait...

He'll be fine - he'll set up one of his detectors to go if in the unlikely event that he ends up in close proximity to an evil git who has no qualms about other people dying provided they get paid. Now where could he find an example to allow him to "calibrate" it?

Ziggurat · 23rd January 2010, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Which is only possible because free markets exist.

I know other posters have already addressed this, but let me just reiterate: that statement is a big chunk of stupid.

r0ast_p0tat0es · 23rd January 2010, 02:43 AM

You guys assume innocent stupidity, but you forget that you can sell a crony government anything with a few bribes and kickbacks in the right places.

Not many government officials are that stupid, but plenty are that corrupt.

biomorph · 23rd January 2010, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

The BBC reports refer to 'thousands' of the devices being sold to Iraq.

i'm jest saying, you'd a thought he'd be happy to claim that too...perhaps his website just wasn't updating.
whenever the press mention 1000's I take it with a little salt.

Quote:

It is mind-boggling that so much money can be spent on something clearly so worthless; I'm not sure what that says about the people making the decisions.

whatever it says it's probably not enough.....lol

Quote:

Luckily for Jim McCormick, the regimes he's sold this thing to are all peace-loving and unlikely to send a hit-squad after him for making them look stupid. Oh, wait...

oops........haha, I just hope they don't rely on the detector to find him...lol

biomorph · 23rd January 2010, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet

Not wishing to be picky, but isn't this a fairly important drawback in a device that claims to be a bomb detector? I would imagine that users looking for bombs probably have a level of stress and a heart rate above average.

Yeah, a bit of a drawback, you could say that.......

metzomagic · 23rd January 2010, 03:00 AM

From a Times Online article:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6997859.ece

Colin Port, the Somerset and Avon Police Chief Constable, personally ordered the investigation. A force spokesman said in a statement: “We are conducting a criminal investigation, and as part of that, a 53-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of fraud by misrepresentation. That man has been released on bail pending further inquiries.

Tell you what... if I had publicly embarrassed and pissed off the Iraqi military, I'd want to *stay* locked up. Some of the right wing nutjobs here may have fatwa envy, but they have actual fatwa! Just sayin'...

commandlinegamer · 23rd January 2010, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by metzomagic

From a Times Online article:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6997859.ece

This is priceless:

Mr McCormick told The Times that his device was being criticised because of its crude appearance.

He added: “We have been dealing with doubters for ten years. One of the problems we have is that the machine does look a little primitive. We are working on a new model that has flashing lights.”

If I ordered a bomb detector I wouldn't give a flying fig what it looked like so long as it worked. If it were a paperweight, which is about all these things are good for, I'd give more consideration to its appearance.

WildCat · 23rd January 2010, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

Mr McCormick told The Times that his device was being criticised because of its crude appearance.

He added: “We have been dealing with doubters for ten years. One of the problems we have is that the machine does look a little primitive. We are working on a new model that has flashing lights.”

Why don't we have McCormick test it? Put him and his bomb detctor in a large room filled with junk and a bomb timed to go off in 10 minutes. All he has to do is find it.

Should be no problem, right?

GlennB · 23rd January 2010, 08:39 AM

McCormick has a cast-iron defence. Just claim it's a homeopathic bomb detector then sue anyone who claims he's a fraud.

zooterkin · 23rd January 2010, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by r0ast_p0tat0es

You guys assume innocent stupidity, but you forget that you can sell a crony government anything with a few bribes and kickbacks in the right places.

Not many government officials are that stupid, but plenty are that corrupt.

Well, I don't think I was assuming stupidity, at least not solely. I did say it makes the governments which bought the device look stupid, which is not quite the same thing. Perhaps corrupt regimes are more prone to poor decision making.

The Atheist · 23rd January 2010, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by HarryHenderson

Is that a little 'highlight' heard in a lecture somewhere?

No. It's a statement of fact.

Originally Posted by HarryHenderson

Okay I'll bite (and go OT), what exactly (are you talking about that) "is only possible because free markets exist"? Evil?

Regardless, it's all Obama's fault.

Nothing to do with Obama. This history goes back long before his birth.

It's simply the result of allowing markets to control themselves rather than be controlled. Take China as an example - the crooks who used melamine to bulk up baby formula have been executed; this bloke talks blandly about suing people who question him!

It was a cryptic remark and not worth a derail.

carolenextdoor · 23rd January 2010, 12:35 PM

In the BBC website news report on Friday 22 Jan.2010, they credit James Randi with first raising concerns over the use of dowsing rods in the US to detect bombs.

They further report that : in 1995 Sandia national labs and the FBI after testing the Quadro Tracker (a precurser of the ADE-651) was described by them as a "fraud", and the FBI warned "All agencies should immediately cease using the device." A similar warning was given again by the FBI in 1999.
-------------------------------------

If it was officially known that this type of device had no credible function as a detector of explosives, one has to question which "agencies" were using them and who and how their purchase was approved?

CoolSceptic · 23rd January 2010, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

It's simply the result of allowing markets to control themselves rather than be controlled. Take China as an example - the crooks who used melamine to bulk up baby formula have been executed.

So the milk was contaminated, and the fraud also took place in the more restricted marketplace.

In summary: you've successfully provided evidence that fraud also takes place in more restricted markets.

Which wasn't your original claim.

And I guess you completely missed the bit where the guy has now been arrested for fraud. Just like what happened in China, how about that. Admittedly, he won't be executed in the UK, but up to that point I can't really see a distinction.

I'd love to know where your train of thought is going here, but I don't think there's a map...

zooterkin · 23rd January 2010, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by CoolSceptic

Admittedly, he won't be executed in the UK

Not by the authorities, anyway...

CoolSceptic · 23rd January 2010, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Not by the authorities, anyway...

I was thinking it would be amusing to extradite him to Iraq, so he could stand trial there instead, although (of course!) we would still seek assurances he would not be executed (to comply with ECHR).

There might be people in Iraq who want to lynch him, but tell him not to worry, we'll use one of his detectors to check them for weapons before allowing them to meet and greet him.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2010, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet

Not wishing to be picky, but isn't this a fairly important drawback in a device that claims to be a bomb detector? I would imagine that users looking for bombs probably have a level of stress and a heart rate above average.

Of course it must be a manufacturers dream when your customers give you the credit when it "works" but not the blame when it doesn't. At least if you are a crook who doesn't care that you are supplying non functioning equipment that leads to innocent people being killed.

You are aware there are NO WORKING PARTS in this thing, right?

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2010, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by r0ast_p0tat0es

You guys assume innocent stupidity, but you forget that you can sell a crony government anything with a few bribes and kickbacks in the right places.

Not many government officials are that stupid, but plenty are that corrupt.

Actually, I think there is a fair amount of both stupid and greed within most governments.

zooterkin · 23rd January 2010, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

You are aware there are NO WORKING PARTS in this thing, right?

Yes, I THINK HE IS, actually.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2010, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

No. It's a statement of fact.

Logic: just because it is possible in free markets to cheat people does not means free markets are required. Read any history book on the corruption within communist/socialist economies and I have no doubt you will find an equal number of examples of greed and fraud.

Originally Posted by The Atheist

...It's simply the result of allowing markets to control themselves rather than be controlled. Take China as an example - the crooks who used melamine to bulk up baby formula have been executed; this bloke talks blandly about suing people who question him! ...

You are talking about different levels of punishment, that has nothing to do with the economic system in play.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2010, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Yes, I THINK HE IS, actually.

Then what was the thing about heart rate and stress level? I must not have understood it.

zooterkin · 23rd January 2010, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

Then what was the thing about heart rate and stress level? I must not have understood it.

I suggest reading his post again. He's saying that even if the device did work, it's a fatal flaw that it depends on the operator being calm, given what it's supposed to be used for. Of course, in reality this is exactly the sort of thing psychics and other scammers do, blaming the victim when things don't 'work', and taking the credit when they do.

Jaggy Bunnet · 23rd January 2010, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

Then what was the thing about heart rate and stress level? I must not have understood it.

You didn't think including the word "works" in quotes and referring to it as "non functioning equipment" supplied by a "crook" may have indicated I had some doubts about its technical merits?

MikeMangum · 23rd January 2010, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by CoolSceptic

I'd love to know where your train of thought is going here, but I don't think there's a map...

I think his train of thought went off the rails.

22nd January 2010, 10:01 AM	#1
scissorhands Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,537	Export ban for useless 'bomb detector' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ht/8471187.stm Im appalled. Reading this article was a jaw dropping experience, its incredible that these devices have been being sold with no scientific evidence that they even work. I notice a reference to Randis million dollar challenge in the article, what is the story behind this?

22nd January 2010, 11:12 AM	#2
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by scissorhands ... what is the story behind this? It was in Randi's swift recently and has ben discussed in threads. It's a predictable result of free market policies.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

22nd January 2010, 11:14 AM	#3
Vic Vega Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Cradle of Liberty Posts: 1,075	Originally Posted by The Atheist It's a predictable result of free market policies. No, it's a predictable result of a swindler finding some easy marks.
	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth

22nd January 2010, 11:37 AM	#4
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by Vic Vega No, it's a predictable result of a swindler finding some easy marks. Which is only possible because free markets exist.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

22nd January 2010, 01:01 PM	#6
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Read This thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=128253&page=4
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

22nd January 2010, 01:00 PM	#5
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunny Leith Posts: 6,147	Originally Posted by The Atheist Which is only possible because free markets exist. Nonsense. Fraud is just as possible in other systems.

22nd January 2010, 01:31 PM	#7
MikeMangum Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,725	Originally Posted by The Atheist Which is only possible because free markets exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

22nd January 2010, 01:34 PM	#8
scissorhands Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,537	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Read This thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=128253&page=4 Thanks for that. McCormick is being investigated for fraudulent description of his product. Almost as if we were simply talking about a fraudulent claim for better suction on a vacuum cleaner. This man has many peoples blood on his hands.

22nd January 2010, 11:46 PM	#9
Questioninggeller Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,030	Originally Posted by The Atheist It was in Randi's swift recently and has ben discussed in threads. Yeah, they threatened to sue Randi for his criticism too. Quote: ... The Iraqi government has spent $85m on the ADE-651 and there are concerns that they have failed to stop bomb attacks that have killed hundreds of people. ... Source No criminal charges?

23rd January 2010, 12:22 AM	#10
HarryHenderson Muse Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: All up in your business Posts: 706	Originally Posted by The Atheist ...It's a predictable result of free market policies. Is that a little 'highlight' heard in a lecture somewhere? Originally Posted by The Atheist Which is only possible because free markets exist. Okay I'll bite (and go OT), what exactly (are you talking about that) "is only possible because free markets exist"? Evil? Regardless, it's all Obama's fault.

23rd January 2010, 12:43 AM	#11
biomorph Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: here, and sometimes elsewhere Posts: 866	according to AD651 effectiveness Quote: Iraq (Baghdad): 80 units of ADE651™ were sold to the Iraqi Ministry of Interior and Quote: The Iraqi government has spent $85m on the ADE-651 and there are concerns that they have failed to stop bomb attacks that have killed hundreds of people. Just over a million each then? Really?

23rd January 2010, 12:45 AM	#12
biomorph Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: here, and sometimes elsewhere Posts: 866	Originally Posted by The Atheist Which is only possible because free markets exist. Really,? Not sure about that........

23rd January 2010, 12:47 AM	#13
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunny Leith Posts: 6,147	Originally Posted by biomorph Just over a million each then? Really? $40k each accord to this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8476381.stm which also reports the arrest of a director of ATSC on suspicion of fraud by misrepresentation. This could get interesting.

23rd January 2010, 01:02 AM	#14
biomorph Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: here, and sometimes elsewhere Posts: 866	Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet $40k each accord to this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8476381.stm which also reports the arrest of a director of ATSC on suspicion of fraud by misrepresentation. This could get interesting. Yes very interesting, I agree. Prices subject to change, hah! I can imagine there's a few red faces amongst the purchasers of the thing now. This could run and run.....

23rd January 2010, 01:17 AM	#15
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,581	Originally Posted by biomorph according to AD651 effectiveness The BBC reports refer to 'thousands' of the devices being sold to Iraq. Originally Posted by biomorph I can imagine there's a few red faces amongst the purchasers of the thing now. It is mind-boggling that so much money can be spent on something clearly so worthless; I'm not sure what that says about the people making the decisions. Luckily for Jim McCormick, the regimes he's sold this thing to are all peace-loving and unlikely to send a hit-squad after him for making them look stupid. Oh, wait...
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

23rd January 2010, 01:20 AM	#16
Cactus Wren Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West of Superstition Posts: 897	Quote: And policemen manning checkpoints in Baghdad have told the BBC that you need to be relaxed to use the ADE-651 and that it does not work properly if the user is stressed or has a high heart rate. In other words, the message which has got through to the frontlines is - if it does not work, blame the operator not the device. "The device was giving a reading for the wrong person! It was showing a reading for the attendant out in the parking lot!"

23rd January 2010, 01:35 AM	#17
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunny Leith Posts: 6,147	Quote: you need to be relaxed to use the ADE-651 and that it does not work properly if the user is stressed or has a high heart rate. Not wishing to be picky, but isn't this a fairly important drawback in a device that claims to be a bomb detector? I would imagine that users looking for bombs probably have a level of stress and a heart rate above average. Of course it must be a manufacturers dream when your customers give you the credit when it "works" but not the blame when it doesn't. At least if you are a crook who doesn't care that you are supplying non functioning equipment that leads to innocent people being killed.

23rd January 2010, 01:40 AM	#18
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunny Leith Posts: 6,147	Originally Posted by zooterkin Luckily for Jim McCormick, the regimes he's sold this thing to are all peace-loving and unlikely to send a hit-squad after him for making them look stupid. Oh, wait... He'll be fine - he'll set up one of his detectors to go if in the unlikely event that he ends up in close proximity to an evil git who has no qualms about other people dying provided they get paid. Now where could he find an example to allow him to "calibrate" it?

23rd January 2010, 02:27 AM	#19
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,192	Originally Posted by The Atheist Which is only possible because free markets exist. I know other posters have already addressed this, but let me just reiterate: that statement is a big chunk of stupid.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

23rd January 2010, 02:43 AM	#20
r0ast_p0tat0es Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 190	You guys assume innocent stupidity, but you forget that you can sell a crony government anything with a few bribes and kickbacks in the right places. Not many government officials are that stupid, but plenty are that corrupt.

23rd January 2010, 02:47 AM	#21
biomorph Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: here, and sometimes elsewhere Posts: 866	Originally Posted by zooterkin The BBC reports refer to 'thousands' of the devices being sold to Iraq. i'm jest saying, you'd a thought he'd be happy to claim that too...perhaps his website just wasn't updating. whenever the press mention 1000's I take it with a little salt. Quote: It is mind-boggling that so much money can be spent on something clearly so worthless; I'm not sure what that says about the people making the decisions. whatever it says it's probably not enough.....lol Quote: Luckily for Jim McCormick, the regimes he's sold this thing to are all peace-loving and unlikely to send a hit-squad after him for making them look stupid. Oh, wait... oops........haha, I just hope they don't rely on the detector to find him...lol
	Last edited by biomorph; 23rd January 2010 at 02:53 AM.

23rd January 2010, 02:52 AM	#22
biomorph Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: here, and sometimes elsewhere Posts: 866	Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet Not wishing to be picky, but isn't this a fairly important drawback in a device that claims to be a bomb detector? I would imagine that users looking for bombs probably have a level of stress and a heart rate above average. Yeah, a bit of a drawback, you could say that.......

23rd January 2010, 03:00 AM	#23
metzomagic Thinker Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 126	McCormick has been arrested From a Times Online article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6997859.ece Colin Port, the Somerset and Avon Police Chief Constable, personally ordered the investigation. A force spokesman said in a statement: “We are conducting a criminal investigation, and as part of that, a 53-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of fraud by misrepresentation. That man has been released on bail pending further inquiries. Tell you what... if I had publicly embarrassed and pissed off the Iraqi military, I'd want to stay locked up. Some of the right wing nutjobs here may have fatwa envy, but they have actual fatwa! Just sayin'...
	__________________ "Tomorrow we enter the town of my birth. I want to be ready." -- Jim Morrison, Celebration of the Lizard Need help getting old games to run in XP/Vista? Then visit Steve's XP Games Corner

23rd January 2010, 03:15 AM	#24
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 5,892	Originally Posted by metzomagic From a Times Online article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6997859.ece This is priceless: Mr McCormick told The Times that his device was being criticised because of its crude appearance. He added: “We have been dealing with doubters for ten years. One of the problems we have is that the machine does look a little primitive. We are working on a new model that has flashing lights.” If I ordered a bomb detector I wouldn't give a flying fig what it looked like so long as it worked. If it were a paperweight, which is about all these things are good for, I'd give more consideration to its appearance.

23rd January 2010, 06:39 AM	#25
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,006	Originally Posted by commandlinegamer Mr McCormick told The Times that his device was being criticised because of its crude appearance. He added: “We have been dealing with doubters for ten years. One of the problems we have is that the machine does look a little primitive. We are working on a new model that has flashing lights.” Why don't we have McCormick test it? Put him and his bomb detctor in a large room filled with junk and a bomb timed to go off in 10 minutes. All he has to do is find it. Should be no problem, right?

23rd January 2010, 08:39 AM	#26
GlennB Jellied eel and offal fancier Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 8,944	McCormick has a cast-iron defence. Just claim it's a homeopathic bomb detector then sue anyone who claims he's a fraud.

23rd January 2010, 10:38 AM	#27
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,581	Originally Posted by r0ast_p0tat0es You guys assume innocent stupidity, but you forget that you can sell a crony government anything with a few bribes and kickbacks in the right places. Not many government officials are that stupid, but plenty are that corrupt. Well, I don't think I was assuming stupidity, at least not solely. I did say it makes the governments which bought the device look stupid, which is not quite the same thing. Perhaps corrupt regimes are more prone to poor decision making.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

23rd January 2010, 11:06 AM	#28
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by HarryHenderson Is that a little 'highlight' heard in a lecture somewhere? No. It's a statement of fact. Originally Posted by HarryHenderson Okay I'll bite (and go OT), what exactly (are you talking about that) "is only possible because free markets exist"? Evil? Regardless, it's all Obama's fault. Nothing to do with Obama. This history goes back long before his birth. It's simply the result of allowing markets to control themselves rather than be controlled. Take China as an example - the crooks who used melamine to bulk up baby formula have been executed; this bloke talks blandly about suing people who question him! It was a cryptic remark and not worth a derail.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

23rd January 2010, 12:35 PM	#29
carolenextdoor New Blood Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 24	In the BBC website news report on Friday 22 Jan.2010, they credit James Randi with first raising concerns over the use of dowsing rods in the US to detect bombs. They further report that : in 1995 Sandia national labs and the FBI after testing the Quadro Tracker (a precurser of the ADE-651) was described by them as a "fraud", and the FBI warned "All agencies should immediately cease using the device." A similar warning was given again by the FBI in 1999. ------------------------------------- If it was officially known that this type of device had no credible function as a detector of explosives, one has to question which "agencies" were using them and who and how their purchase was approved?
carolenextdoor New Blood Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 24	Last edited by carolenextdoor; 23rd January 2010 at 12:37 PM. Reason: date incorrect 1010 instead of 2010

23rd January 2010, 01:06 PM	#30
CoolSceptic Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 429	Originally Posted by The Atheist It's simply the result of allowing markets to control themselves rather than be controlled. Take China as an example - the crooks who used melamine to bulk up baby formula have been executed. So the milk was contaminated, and the fraud also took place in the more restricted marketplace. In summary: you've successfully provided evidence that fraud also takes place in more restricted markets. Which wasn't your original claim. And I guess you completely missed the bit where the guy has now been arrested for fraud. Just like what happened in China, how about that. Admittedly, he won't be executed in the UK, but up to that point I can't really see a distinction. I'd love to know where your train of thought is going here, but I don't think there's a map...

23rd January 2010, 01:09 PM	#31
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,581	Originally Posted by CoolSceptic Admittedly, he won't be executed in the UK Not by the authorities, anyway...
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

23rd January 2010, 01:32 PM	#32
CoolSceptic Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 429	Originally Posted by zooterkin Not by the authorities, anyway... I was thinking it would be amusing to extradite him to Iraq, so he could stand trial there instead, although (of course!) we would still seek assurances he would not be executed (to comply with ECHR). There might be people in Iraq who want to lynch him, but tell him not to worry, we'll use one of his detectors to check them for weapons before allowing them to meet and greet him.

23rd January 2010, 01:37 PM	#33
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,557	Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet Not wishing to be picky, but isn't this a fairly important drawback in a device that claims to be a bomb detector? I would imagine that users looking for bombs probably have a level of stress and a heart rate above average. Of course it must be a manufacturers dream when your customers give you the credit when it "works" but not the blame when it doesn't. At least if you are a crook who doesn't care that you are supplying non functioning equipment that leads to innocent people being killed. You are aware there are NO WORKING PARTS in this thing, right?
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

23rd January 2010, 01:38 PM	#34
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,557	Originally Posted by r0ast_p0tat0es You guys assume innocent stupidity, but you forget that you can sell a crony government anything with a few bribes and kickbacks in the right places. Not many government officials are that stupid, but plenty are that corrupt. Actually, I think there is a fair amount of both stupid and greed within most governments.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

23rd January 2010, 01:40 PM	#35
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,581	Originally Posted by skeptigirl You are aware there are NO WORKING PARTS in this thing, right? Yes, I THINK HE IS, actually.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232