Truther Speaks.............So Nobody listen!!!!

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 04:03 PM

I'll admit it, I was a truther. I held the signs, talked the nonsense, and believed i needed to wear a tinfoil hat from all the times i heard it. But honestly, I haven't changed much, but realized how far this " truther" stuff is been going on. I mean, some of these theories are just ridiculous.

Out of all the things I learned from being on the hot table for about 3 years now, its that we as Americans ( Truthers, Non-Truthers) are all equally ignorant. Truthers always under mind the fact that there is an official document that explains SOME of the things quite clearly, while the non-truthers fail to question the evidence that doesn't make any sense. Not to say that this was an inside job, or that there were no planes. But that there was some backs turned, and some wallets did get fat that day.

I guess the only thing I have to say about this is so called Truther movement is that even though i like the spirit, I really dont agree entirely to what they say. We as Americans have the right to question the government, and have the right to demand not for the truth, but clarity on that awful day. I know how easy it is to read the last page of the 9/11 commission report and walk away, but to question something that seems unusual to you takes something else. However ,this in mind, it is not rightful for us Americans to make outrages claims, theories, and statements without seeing all sides of the story. Until this day, I have not seen all perspectives, i only go on with what i know.

Until today, there is still many debates on whether there were planes, whether it was a controlled demolition, whether a missile hit the pentagon, why the government hid the tapes, if anybody made money, and even if terrorist planned the attack in the first place. If there's one thing that I do know, is that thousands of innocent people lost their lives that day. And truther or not, you have to pay respects to these people.

sinclairmcevoy · 26th January 2010, 04:06 PM

So what do you believe happened? Seriously.

Justin39640 · 26th January 2010, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

I'll admit it, I was a truther. I held the signs, talked the nonsense, and believed i needed to wear a tinfoil hat from all the times i heard it. But honestly, I haven't changed much, but realized how far this " truther" stuff is been going on. I mean, some of these theories are just ridiculous.

Out of all the things I learned from being on the hot table for about 3 years now, its that we as Americans ( Truthers, Non-Truthers) are all equally ignorant. Truthers always under mind the fact that there is an official document that explains SOME of the things quite clearly, while the non-truthers fail to question the evidence that doesn't make any sense. Not to say that this was an inside job, or that there were no planes. But that there was some backs turned, and some wallets did get fat that day.

I guess the only thing I have to say about this is so called Truther movement is that even though i like the spirit, I really dont agree entirely to what they say. We as Americans have the right to question the government, and have the right to demand not for the truth, but clarity on that awful day. I know how easy it is to read the last page of the 9/11 commission report and walk away, but to question something that seems unusual to you takes something else. However ,this in mind, it is not rightful for us Americans to make outrages claims, theories, and statements without seeing all sides of the story. Until this day, I have not seen all perspectives, i only go on with what i know.

Until today, there is still many debates on whether there were planes, whether it was a controlled demolition, whether a missile hit the pentagon, why the government hid the tapes, if anybody made money, and even if terrorist planned the attack in the first place. If there's one thing that I do know, is that thousands of innocent people lost their lives that day. And truther or not, you have to pay respects to these people.

Some truthers don't think ANYONE died on that day.
Google the "Vicsim report" and prepare to meet your lunch again.

Edx · 26th January 2010, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

I know how easy it is to read the last page of the 9/11 commission report and walk away, but to question something that seems unusual to you takes something else.

The thing is you need a reason to question 911 being an inside job.

And all of the "reasons" provided by truthers have been 100% wrong back to front.

Some have been frauds, a great many have been lies, a greater number have been misrepresentations, many have been based on out of context quotes, a great number have been based on incompetence and then dishonesty to try and cover that up.

The problem is truthers have a mentality that there must be something fishy about 911 because they have been told there is by other truthers.

They don't want to believe the "official story" because they don't want to believe the government. So if they don't want to believe the government, who else are they going to turn to? The "alternative" opinions of truthers of course.

And even when you start to realise that at least most of what truthers say is wrong you still think that surely some of what they said was correct... right? Surely they can't be wrong about e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g?

I see it now like Creationism, its amazing to think that Creationists could be 100% wrong about every single claim they make, but they really are.

Thunder · 26th January 2010, 04:17 PM

um...what's with this self-made-martyr title????

"I am speaking!!!!! nobody is listening to me!!!! waaa!!!!!"

9-11 truth, part deux...is crap. that's why i don't believe it. its that simple.

bring me some real evidence, and i will take a look. until then....

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 04:34 PM

Has anybody seen the Movie Tora!Tora!Tora! I think that something similar to that happened. Obviously not the same place and time, but in the same manner at which there were varies of under minded events, ignored threats, and little action done to what was going to happen. Yes there were planes that day, yes there was terrorist who are now dead, and yes, 9/11 was a planned attack. But how much of this did our government let slip through the cracks? Do you think that our government, let alone all the Goverments in the world are kids sitting in the classroom,with their hands crossed with little halos over their heads? No. Not to say that they are devils bound to destroy human life. Its merely business and politics.And anyone who pretends to understand politics(without being in the system itself) for the mere fact of saying that something is 100% wrong just doesn't seem justified.

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 04:55 PM

I never asked this to anybody else, but what do you guys think happened. Usually i see truthers do most of the senseless talking, while the others just disprove things but never really explain what they believe in. One of my friends once said that.... " Maybe non-truthers believe that 9/11 happened when the 9/11 report came out." Really didn't get what he meant by that, but he always thought is was funny for some reason.

Edx · 26th January 2010, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

Do you think that our government, let alone all the Goverments in the world are kids sitting in the classroom,with their hands crossed with little halos over their heads? No.

EDIT: OK I totally misread the above. I thought you were saying something about Bush in the classroom. Doh! Anyway I'll leave the post as it is

See that has to be one of the silliest arguments for an Inside Job.

If you went to the trouble of carrying out the attacks on 911 including coordinating all kinds of fake reports media involvement, emergency service involvement, putting explosives in buildings, inventing silent explosives and demolition methods never used before or since, paying off and/or scaring witness' and so on...

... if you do all that, is it reasonable to think they would not have a plan to act in a competent way in that classroom when the attack happens?

No. The fact that Bush did nothing for so long on 911 in that classroom is a reason AGAINST belief in an inside job, not for it.

But truthers like to believe in the stupid-genius' idea of a conspiracy theory so they usually have this backwards logic.

Dumb All Over · 26th January 2010, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

I never asked this to anybody else, but what do you guys think happened.

What do you think happened?

Scott Sommers · 26th January 2010, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

Its merely business and politics.And anyone who pretends to understand politics(without being in the system itself) for the mere fact of saying that something is 100% wrong just doesn't seem justified.

I'm confused by this last part. You seem to be saying that 'politics' is some secret world that can't be understood by 'outsiders'. Is that correct?

And to quote Dumb All Over

Originally Posted by Dumb All Over

What do you think happened?

njslim · 26th January 2010, 05:04 PM

Perusing the lunacy on ABOVE TOP SECRET came across this gem

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread33943/pg6

Scroll down to bottom post and let the insanity wash over you....

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 05:08 PM

Well, I never mentioned anything about putting explosive in buildings, nor Bush having any actual involvement in the physical attacks. I just said that our government let this slip through the cracks. There doesn't have to be any media changing or false medical reports because the event did happen the way it did. It just wasn't prevented, seeing the information that we had on previous days.

Dumb All Over · 26th January 2010, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

Well, I never mentioned anything about putting explosive in buildings, nor Bush having any actual involvement in the physical attacks. I just said that our government let this slip through the cracks. There doesn't have to be any media changing or false medical reports because the event did happen the way it did. It just wasn't prevented, seeing the information that we had on previous days.

When the government let this slip through the cracks, do you think they let it slip on purpose?

Edx · 26th January 2010, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

Well, I never mentioned anything about putting explosive in buildings, nor Bush having any actual involvement in the physical attacks. I just said that our government let this slip through the cracks. There doesn't have to be any media changing or false medical reports because the event did happen the way it did. It just wasn't prevented, seeing the information that we had on previous days.

Its funny I was where you were about a year and a half ago.

Brainache · 26th January 2010, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

I never asked this to anybody else, but what do you guys think happened. Usually i see truthers do most of the senseless talking, while the others just disprove things but never really explain what they believe in. One of my friends once said that.... " Maybe non-truthers believe that 9/11 happened when the 9/11 report came out." Really didn't get what he meant by that, but he always thought is was funny for some reason.

I was aware of Bin Laden before 9/11. I was working as a TV News Director at the time.

I believe some Muslim terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes and crashed them into buildings and a field in Pennsylvania.

They were able to do this through a combination of good planning, lax airport security regulations and a US intelligence community that had institutional barriers in place which prevented different agencies from sharing information.

There is a lot of evidence to support this belief: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notable...oui/index.html

That is just some of the evidence that has been presented in a US courtroom which supports the case that Al Qaeda committed the attacks on 9/11.

Do the Truthers have anything like that?

DavidJames · 26th January 2010, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

It just wasn't prevented, seeing the information that we had on previous days.

Please provide direct evidence there that the government knew planes would be hijacked on 9/11 and flown into buildings.

Direct sources only, no speculation, reading between the lines, they should ha known, etc.

Thanks and welcome to the forum.

LIHOP is much more plausible then MIHOP but still suffers from a serious lack of evidence.

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 05:21 PM

That' s a very hard question, At first, I used to say that they did do it on purpose for the money. But then I thought, would the government really kill thousands of people for billions. I wouldn't like to think of it that way, and according to many people, its seems ridiculous. Very simple concept and has been human nature, but I then I thought, No. Because the Government just let this slip through the cracks for the mere fact that they didn't take it as a serious threat, and didn't want to say that the most terrible day in America could of been prevented.

vinniem · 26th January 2010, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Please provide direct evidence there that the government knew planes would be hijacked on 9/11 and flown into buildings.

Direct sources only, no speculation, reading between the lines, they should ha known, etc.

Thanks and welcome to the forum.

LIHOP is much more plausible then MIHOP but still suffers from a serious lack of evidence.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/20385

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16411947/N...Hijack-Summary

*Awaits the hand waving*

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Edx

Its funny I was where you were about a year and a half ago.

Where are you now?

Dumb All Over · 26th January 2010, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

That' s a very hard question, At first, I used to say that they did do it on purpose for the money. But then I thought, would the government really kill thousands of people for billions. I wouldn't like to think of it that way, and according to many people, its seems ridiculous. Very simple concept and has been human nature, but I then I thought, No. Because the Government just let this slip through the cracks for the mere fact that they didn't take it as a serious threat, and didn't want to say that the most terrible day in America could of been prevented.

I guess you are saying hindsight is 20-20, yes?

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 05:26 PM

20-20?

Dumb All Over · 26th January 2010, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

20-20?

20-20.

JimBenArm · 26th January 2010, 05:29 PM

The real reason for 9/11? Bin Laden is jealous that I'm me and he isn't.

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dumb All Over

I guess you are saying hindsight is 20-20, yes?

What i meant to say is I dont get the gist of what you are trying to say.

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by JimBenArm

The real reason for 9/11? Bin Laden is jealous that I'm me and he isn't.

If only we all thought like you my friend.......

Edx · 26th January 2010, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

Where are you now?

That LIHOP is also unreasonable.

Its much easier to believe in it though than the Young Earth Creationism version of Trutherism which is MIHOP and controlled demolition and the equivilent Flat Earther stance of CGI planes and Beam Weapons.

With basic LIHOP belief you start with the point of view that the government can't be telling you the truth. Then you start to make connections with flimsy reasons you don't really understand and haven't really checked out properly and add that all together to form your opinion that LIHOP is reasonable. Michael Ruppert is great for getting this false impression from, since he makes so many claims implying LIHOP at least, that you think they cant all be wrong, and/or he must be right about some of them, at least.

So add to the general mentality that the government is not to be trusted believers in LIHOP also generally have a few sprinkling of claims like "Cheney was in charge of NORAD and they changed the law less than a year before 911!!!" when they didnt, or maybe you think Rumsfeld admitted Trillions went missing a day before 911 (cue spooky music, waggle your fingers at the camera and make woo woo sounds to imply some nefarious deception) when really that's a claim that's also completely wrong. Or how about the $100,000 wire transfer we have no good evidence for or the Bin Laden have kidney treatment in Dubai story where its claimed he met CIA agents and so on and so on. I also note lot of assumptions stem from incorrect understandings about how NORAD works both as an "entity" and what happened on 911 in this regard.

What I'm saying is if you take a state of mind that wants or is "ready" to believe in some kind of conspiracy add a sprinkling of ignorance and some false claims like the above and you have a nice mix ready to give you a false conclusion.

Thunder · 26th January 2010, 05:35 PM

there is no evidence that ANYONE other than the perps knew that 4 planes would be hijacked and crashed into NYC and DC, on 9-11-01.

Dumb All Over · 26th January 2010, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

What i meant to say is I dont get the gist of what you are trying to say.

Let's try something else then. Do you know what a Monday morning quarterback is?

JimBenArm · 26th January 2010, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

What i meant to say is I dont get the gist of what you are trying to say.

He means it's easy to look back after something has happened and pick out bad decisions, things that someone could have done differently that would have changed the outcome, when the outcome wasn't readily apparent to the people making the decisions in real time.
Another term for this is Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Very easy to do. Not so easy when it's Sunday, and you're the quarterback. See Brett Favre last Sunday, for an excellent example!

That clear enough, or do I need to use semaphore?

vinniem · 26th January 2010, 05:37 PM

Edx didn't you say that Odigo employees were warned beforehand?

Dumb All Over · 26th January 2010, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by JimBenArm

The real reason for 9/11? Bin Laden is jealous that I'm me and he isn't.

Originally Posted by jvalens

If only we all thought like you my friend.......

We do.

Edx · 26th January 2010, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by vinniem

Edx didn't you say that Odigo employees were warned beforehand?

1. No I didn't. EDIT: Ah I see, yes I did say that but see 2.
2. You didn't understand what I was arguing.
3. I accepted I was wrong, I am not longer a truther remember?
4. What relevance did that have when you asked it?

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by JimBenArm

He means it's easy to look back after something has happened and pick out bad decisions, things that someone could have done differently that would have changed the outcome, when the outcome wasn't readily apparent to the people making the decisions in real time.
Another term for this is Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Very easy to do. Not so easy when it's Sunday, and you're the quarterback. See Brett Favre last Sunday, for an excellent example!

That clear enough, or do I need to use semaphore?

No its clear enough. But do we blame the Monday Morning Quarterback?

Dumb All Over · 26th January 2010, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

No its clear enough. But do we blame the Monday Morning Quarterback?

Ding! Yes! Good job! You got it on the first try! Good for you. We blame it on the Monday morning quarterback. Case solved.

ttfn

JimBenArm · 26th January 2010, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

No its clear enough. But do we blame the Monday Morning Quarterback?

Well, when the MMQ states that because the QB got sacked, he must have known that the other team was blitzing, and he deliberately held the ball so he'd get sacked so the other team could win, then yes, yes we do.

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dumb All Over

Ding! Yes! Good job! You got it on the first try! Good for you. We blame it on the Monday morning quarterback. Case solved.

ttfn

Well, I guess that ends that. We can now all together walk into the sunset until yet another theory rises up again. When we can all push his false accusations down to the ground, lower his self esteem, and maybe throw in a couple "yo momma" jokes around.

I don't want to say that im not a truther anymore, because theres always going to be that natural skepticism that i have grown throughout the years. To me, those three years in being a hardcore truther is comparable to an ex-alcoholic. Seemed like a good idea at first, but didn't know what the hell i was doing or saying for most of the time.

Sam.I.Am · 26th January 2010, 05:59 PM

The Monday morning quarterback is everyone (including yourself) that asks "Why they did this and not that?" while standing around the office water cooler the next day.

The government dropped the ball on and before 9/11 and nobody here has ever said otherwise to the best of my knowledge. Some people didn't take the situation seriously enough on the lead up to it and some people were confused as to what the situation was before it was too late. There doesn't have to be intentional malice by anyone in order for this to happen.

jvalens · 26th January 2010, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

The Monday morning quarterback is everyone (including yourself) that asks "Why they did this and not that?" while standing around the office water cooler the next day..

So can we just close the book by saying that we all ********** up big time, and just let it be?

JimBenArm · 26th January 2010, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by jvalens

So can we just close the book by saying that we all ********** up big time, and just let it be?

Nobody did that, and no one suggested that they should.
Maybe they didn't make the changes you wanted, and they didn't do what I wanted either, but changes did occur.
However, demanding changes based on outrageous accusations and stupidity does no one any good.

DavidJames · 26th January 2010, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by vinniem

http://www.911blogger.com/node/20385

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16411947/N...Hijack-Summary

*Awaits the hand waving*

No hand waving, just respond to my request. Your links do not. Here is my request, again

Originally Posted by DavidJames

Please provide direct evidence there that the government knew planes would be hijacked on 9/11 and flown into buildings.

Direct sources only, no speculation, reading between the lines, they should have known, etc.

26th January 2010, 04:03 PM	#1
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	Truther Speaks.............So Nobody listen!!!! I'll admit it, I was a truther. I held the signs, talked the nonsense, and believed i needed to wear a tinfoil hat from all the times i heard it. But honestly, I haven't changed much, but realized how far this " truther" stuff is been going on. I mean, some of these theories are just ridiculous. Out of all the things I learned from being on the hot table for about 3 years now, its that we as Americans ( Truthers, Non-Truthers) are all equally ignorant. Truthers always under mind the fact that there is an official document that explains SOME of the things quite clearly, while the non-truthers fail to question the evidence that doesn't make any sense. Not to say that this was an inside job, or that there were no planes. But that there was some backs turned, and some wallets did get fat that day. I guess the only thing I have to say about this is so called Truther movement is that even though i like the spirit, I really dont agree entirely to what they say. We as Americans have the right to question the government, and have the right to demand not for the truth, but clarity on that awful day. I know how easy it is to read the last page of the 9/11 commission report and walk away, but to question something that seems unusual to you takes something else. However ,this in mind, it is not rightful for us Americans to make outrages claims, theories, and statements without seeing all sides of the story. Until this day, I have not seen all perspectives, i only go on with what i know. Until today, there is still many debates on whether there were planes, whether it was a controlled demolition, whether a missile hit the pentagon, why the government hid the tapes, if anybody made money, and even if terrorist planned the attack in the first place. If there's one thing that I do know, is that thousands of innocent people lost their lives that day. And truther or not, you have to pay respects to these people.
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38

26th January 2010, 04:06 PM	#2
sinclairmcevoy Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 8,027	So what do you believe happened? Seriously.
	__________________ Don't argue with me. Don't you know who I think I am?

26th January 2010, 04:11 PM	#3
Justin39640 Illuminator Join Date: May 2009 Location: New York Posts: 3,665	Originally Posted by jvalens I'll admit it, I was a truther. I held the signs, talked the nonsense, and believed i needed to wear a tinfoil hat from all the times i heard it. But honestly, I haven't changed much, but realized how far this " truther" stuff is been going on. I mean, some of these theories are just ridiculous. Out of all the things I learned from being on the hot table for about 3 years now, its that we as Americans ( Truthers, Non-Truthers) are all equally ignorant. Truthers always under mind the fact that there is an official document that explains SOME of the things quite clearly, while the non-truthers fail to question the evidence that doesn't make any sense. Not to say that this was an inside job, or that there were no planes. But that there was some backs turned, and some wallets did get fat that day. I guess the only thing I have to say about this is so called Truther movement is that even though i like the spirit, I really dont agree entirely to what they say. We as Americans have the right to question the government, and have the right to demand not for the truth, but clarity on that awful day. I know how easy it is to read the last page of the 9/11 commission report and walk away, but to question something that seems unusual to you takes something else. However ,this in mind, it is not rightful for us Americans to make outrages claims, theories, and statements without seeing all sides of the story. Until this day, I have not seen all perspectives, i only go on with what i know. Until today, there is still many debates on whether there were planes, whether it was a controlled demolition, whether a missile hit the pentagon, why the government hid the tapes, if anybody made money, and even if terrorist planned the attack in the first place. If there's one thing that I do know, is that thousands of innocent people lost their lives that day. And truther or not, you have to pay respects to these people. Some truthers don't think ANYONE died on that day. Google the "Vicsim report" and prepare to meet your lunch again.
	__________________ "I joined this forum to learn about the people who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I've learned that they believe nutty things and are not very good at explaining them." - FineWine "The agencies involved with studying the WTC collapse no more needed to consider explosives than the police need to consider brain cancer in a shooting death." - ElMondoHummus

26th January 2010, 04:16 PM	#4
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	Originally Posted by jvalens I know how easy it is to read the last page of the 9/11 commission report and walk away, but to question something that seems unusual to you takes something else. The thing is you need a reason to question 911 being an inside job. And all of the "reasons" provided by truthers have been 100% wrong back to front. Some have been frauds, a great many have been lies, a greater number have been misrepresentations, many have been based on out of context quotes, a great number have been based on incompetence and then dishonesty to try and cover that up. The problem is truthers have a mentality that there must be something fishy about 911 because they have been told there is by other truthers. They don't want to believe the "official story" because they don't want to believe the government. So if they don't want to believe the government, who else are they going to turn to? The "alternative" opinions of truthers of course. And even when you start to realise that at least most of what truthers say is wrong you still think that surely some of what they said was correct... right? Surely they can't be wrong about e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g? I see it now like Creationism, its amazing to think that Creationists could be 100% wrong about every single claim they make, but they really are.
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	__________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkepticalIdealist

26th January 2010, 04:17 PM	#5
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	um...what's with this self-made-martyr title???? "I am speaking!!!!! nobody is listening to me!!!! waaa!!!!!" 9-11 truth, part deux...is crap. that's why i don't believe it. its that simple. bring me some real evidence, and i will take a look. until then....
	Last edited by Thunder; 26th January 2010 at 04:18 PM.

26th January 2010, 04:34 PM	#6
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	Has anybody seen the Movie Tora!Tora!Tora! I think that something similar to that happened. Obviously not the same place and time, but in the same manner at which there were varies of under minded events, ignored threats, and little action done to what was going to happen. Yes there were planes that day, yes there was terrorist who are now dead, and yes, 9/11 was a planned attack. But how much of this did our government let slip through the cracks? Do you think that our government, let alone all the Goverments in the world are kids sitting in the classroom,with their hands crossed with little halos over their heads? No. Not to say that they are devils bound to destroy human life. Its merely business and politics.And anyone who pretends to understand politics(without being in the system itself) for the mere fact of saying that something is 100% wrong just doesn't seem justified.
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38

26th January 2010, 04:55 PM	#7
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	I never asked this to anybody else, but what do you guys think happened. Usually i see truthers do most of the senseless talking, while the others just disprove things but never really explain what they believe in. One of my friends once said that.... " Maybe non-truthers believe that 9/11 happened when the 9/11 report came out." Really didn't get what he meant by that, but he always thought is was funny for some reason.
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38

26th January 2010, 05:00 PM	#8
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	Originally Posted by jvalens Do you think that our government, let alone all the Goverments in the world are kids sitting in the classroom,with their hands crossed with little halos over their heads? No. EDIT: OK I totally misread the above. I thought you were saying something about Bush in the classroom. Doh! Anyway I'll leave the post as it is See that has to be one of the silliest arguments for an Inside Job. If you went to the trouble of carrying out the attacks on 911 including coordinating all kinds of fake reports media involvement, emergency service involvement, putting explosives in buildings, inventing silent explosives and demolition methods never used before or since, paying off and/or scaring witness' and so on... ... if you do all that, is it reasonable to think they would not have a plan to act in a competent way in that classroom when the attack happens? No. The fact that Bush did nothing for so long on 911 in that classroom is a reason AGAINST belief in an inside job, not for it. But truthers like to believe in the stupid-genius' idea of a conspiracy theory so they usually have this backwards logic.
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	__________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkepticalIdealist Last edited by Edx; 26th January 2010 at 05:02 PM.

26th January 2010, 05:01 PM	#9
Dumb All Over A Little Ugly on the Side Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name) Posts: 3,715	Originally Posted by jvalens I never asked this to anybody else, but what do you guys think happened. What do you think happened?
	__________________ The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

26th January 2010, 05:03 PM	#10
Scott Sommers Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by jvalens Its merely business and politics.And anyone who pretends to understand politics(without being in the system itself) for the mere fact of saying that something is 100% wrong just doesn't seem justified. I'm confused by this last part. You seem to be saying that 'politics' is some secret world that can't be understood by 'outsiders'. Is that correct? And to quote Dumb All Over Originally Posted by Dumb All Over What do you think happened?

26th January 2010, 05:04 PM	#11
njslim Muse Join Date: May 2006 Location: Jooisy - You got a problem with that? Posts: 971	Perusing the lunacy on ABOVE TOP SECRET came across this gem http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread33943/pg6 Scroll down to bottom post and let the insanity wash over you....

26th January 2010, 05:08 PM	#12
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	Well, I never mentioned anything about putting explosive in buildings, nor Bush having any actual involvement in the physical attacks. I just said that our government let this slip through the cracks. There doesn't have to be any media changing or false medical reports because the event did happen the way it did. It just wasn't prevented, seeing the information that we had on previous days.
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38

26th January 2010, 05:12 PM	#13
Dumb All Over A Little Ugly on the Side Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name) Posts: 3,715	Originally Posted by jvalens Well, I never mentioned anything about putting explosive in buildings, nor Bush having any actual involvement in the physical attacks. I just said that our government let this slip through the cracks. There doesn't have to be any media changing or false medical reports because the event did happen the way it did. It just wasn't prevented, seeing the information that we had on previous days. When the government let this slip through the cracks, do you think they let it slip on purpose?
	__________________ The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

26th January 2010, 05:14 PM	#14
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	Originally Posted by jvalens Well, I never mentioned anything about putting explosive in buildings, nor Bush having any actual involvement in the physical attacks. I just said that our government let this slip through the cracks. There doesn't have to be any media changing or false medical reports because the event did happen the way it did. It just wasn't prevented, seeing the information that we had on previous days. Its funny I was where you were about a year and a half ago.
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	__________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkepticalIdealist

26th January 2010, 05:17 PM	#15
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Behind you! Posts: 9,181	Originally Posted by jvalens I never asked this to anybody else, but what do you guys think happened. Usually i see truthers do most of the senseless talking, while the others just disprove things but never really explain what they believe in. One of my friends once said that.... " Maybe non-truthers believe that 9/11 happened when the 9/11 report came out." Really didn't get what he meant by that, but he always thought is was funny for some reason. I was aware of Bin Laden before 9/11. I was working as a TV News Director at the time. I believe some Muslim terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes and crashed them into buildings and a field in Pennsylvania. They were able to do this through a combination of good planning, lax airport security regulations and a US intelligence community that had institutional barriers in place which prevented different agencies from sharing information. There is a lot of evidence to support this belief: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notable...oui/index.html That is just some of the evidence that has been presented in a US courtroom which supports the case that Al Qaeda committed the attacks on 9/11. Do the Truthers have anything like that?

26th January 2010, 05:18 PM	#16
DavidJames Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 7,116	Originally Posted by jvalens It just wasn't prevented, seeing the information that we had on previous days. Please provide direct evidence there that the government knew planes would be hijacked on 9/11 and flown into buildings. Direct sources only, no speculation, reading between the lines, they should ha known, etc. Thanks and welcome to the forum. LIHOP is much more plausible then MIHOP but still suffers from a serious lack of evidence.
	__________________ I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars. Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand. Last edited by DavidJames; 26th January 2010 at 05:19 PM.

26th January 2010, 05:21 PM	#17
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	That' s a very hard question, At first, I used to say that they did do it on purpose for the money. But then I thought, would the government really kill thousands of people for billions. I wouldn't like to think of it that way, and according to many people, its seems ridiculous. Very simple concept and has been human nature, but I then I thought, No. Because the Government just let this slip through the cracks for the mere fact that they didn't take it as a serious threat, and didn't want to say that the most terrible day in America could of been prevented.
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38

26th January 2010, 05:22 PM	#18
vinniem Banned Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 308	Originally Posted by DavidJames Please provide direct evidence there that the government knew planes would be hijacked on 9/11 and flown into buildings. Direct sources only, no speculation, reading between the lines, they should ha known, etc. Thanks and welcome to the forum. LIHOP is much more plausible then MIHOP but still suffers from a serious lack of evidence. http://www.911blogger.com/node/20385 http://www.scribd.com/doc/16411947/N...Hijack-Summary Awaits the hand waving
vinniem Banned Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 308

26th January 2010, 05:22 PM	#19
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	Originally Posted by Edx Its funny I was where you were about a year and a half ago. Where are you now?
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38

26th January 2010, 05:23 PM	#20
Dumb All Over A Little Ugly on the Side Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name) Posts: 3,715	Originally Posted by jvalens That' s a very hard question, At first, I used to say that they did do it on purpose for the money. But then I thought, would the government really kill thousands of people for billions. I wouldn't like to think of it that way, and according to many people, its seems ridiculous. Very simple concept and has been human nature, but I then I thought, No. Because the Government just let this slip through the cracks for the mere fact that they didn't take it as a serious threat, and didn't want to say that the most terrible day in America could of been prevented. I guess you are saying hindsight is 20-20, yes?
	__________________ The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

26th January 2010, 05:26 PM	#21
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	20-20?
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38

26th January 2010, 05:28 PM	#22
Dumb All Over A Little Ugly on the Side Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name) Posts: 3,715	Originally Posted by jvalens 20-20? 20-20.
	__________________ The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

26th January 2010, 05:29 PM	#23
JimBenArm Based on a true story! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 13,017	The real reason for 9/11? Bin Laden is jealous that I'm me and he isn't.
	__________________ *"JimBenArm is right"* Hokulele Mom

26th January 2010, 05:31 PM	#24
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	Originally Posted by Dumb All Over I guess you are saying hindsight is 20-20, yes? What i meant to say is I dont get the gist of what you are trying to say.
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38

26th January 2010, 05:32 PM	#25
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	Originally Posted by JimBenArm The real reason for 9/11? Bin Laden is jealous that I'm me and he isn't. If only we all thought like you my friend.......
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38

26th January 2010, 05:34 PM	#26
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	Originally Posted by jvalens Where are you now? That LIHOP is also unreasonable. Its much easier to believe in it though than the Young Earth Creationism version of Trutherism which is MIHOP and controlled demolition and the equivilent Flat Earther stance of CGI planes and Beam Weapons. With basic LIHOP belief you start with the point of view that the government can't be telling you the truth. Then you start to make connections with flimsy reasons you don't really understand and haven't really checked out properly and add that all together to form your opinion that LIHOP is reasonable. Michael Ruppert is great for getting this false impression from, since he makes so many claims implying LIHOP at least, that you think they cant all be wrong, and/or he must be right about some of them, at least. So add to the general mentality that the government is not to be trusted believers in LIHOP also generally have a few sprinkling of claims like "Cheney was in charge of NORAD and they changed the law less than a year before 911!!!" when they didnt, or maybe you think Rumsfeld admitted Trillions went missing a day before 911 (cue spooky music, waggle your fingers at the camera and make woo woo sounds to imply some nefarious deception) when really that's a claim that's also completely wrong. Or how about the $100,000 wire transfer we have no good evidence for or the Bin Laden have kidney treatment in Dubai story where its claimed he met CIA agents and so on and so on. I also note lot of assumptions stem from incorrect understandings about how NORAD works both as an "entity" and what happened on 911 in this regard. What I'm saying is if you take a state of mind that wants or is "ready" to believe in some kind of conspiracy add a sprinkling of ignorance and some false claims like the above and you have a nice mix ready to give you a false conclusion.
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	__________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkepticalIdealist Last edited by Edx; 26th January 2010 at 05:37 PM.

26th January 2010, 05:35 PM	#27
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	there is no evidence that ANYONE other than the perps knew that 4 planes would be hijacked and crashed into NYC and DC, on 9-11-01.

26th January 2010, 05:36 PM	#28
Dumb All Over A Little Ugly on the Side Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name) Posts: 3,715	Originally Posted by jvalens What i meant to say is I dont get the gist of what you are trying to say. Let's try something else then. Do you know what a Monday morning quarterback is?
	__________________ The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

26th January 2010, 05:37 PM	#29
JimBenArm Based on a true story! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 13,017	Originally Posted by jvalens What i meant to say is I dont get the gist of what you are trying to say. He means it's easy to look back after something has happened and pick out bad decisions, things that someone could have done differently that would have changed the outcome, when the outcome wasn't readily apparent to the people making the decisions in real time. Another term for this is Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Very easy to do. Not so easy when it's Sunday, and you're the quarterback. See Brett Favre last Sunday, for an excellent example! That clear enough, or do I need to use semaphore?
	__________________ *"JimBenArm is right"* Hokulele Mom

26th January 2010, 05:42 PM	#31
Dumb All Over A Little Ugly on the Side Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name) Posts: 3,715	Originally Posted by JimBenArm The real reason for 9/11? Bin Laden is jealous that I'm me and he isn't. Originally Posted by jvalens If only we all thought like you my friend....... We do.
	__________________ The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin Last edited by Dumb All Over; 26th January 2010 at 05:46 PM.

26th January 2010, 05:45 PM	#32
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	Originally Posted by vinniem Edx didn't you say that Odigo employees were warned beforehand? 1. No I didn't. EDIT: Ah I see, yes I did say that but see 2. 2. You didn't understand what I was arguing. 3. I accepted I was wrong, I am not longer a truther remember? 4. What relevance did that have when you asked it?
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	__________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkepticalIdealist Last edited by Edx; 26th January 2010 at 06:12 PM.

26th January 2010, 05:46 PM	#33
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	Originally Posted by JimBenArm He means it's easy to look back after something has happened and pick out bad decisions, things that someone could have done differently that would have changed the outcome, when the outcome wasn't readily apparent to the people making the decisions in real time. Another term for this is Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Very easy to do. Not so easy when it's Sunday, and you're the quarterback. See Brett Favre last Sunday, for an excellent example! That clear enough, or do I need to use semaphore? No its clear enough. But do we blame the Monday Morning Quarterback?
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38

26th January 2010, 05:50 PM	#34
Dumb All Over A Little Ugly on the Side Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name) Posts: 3,715	Originally Posted by jvalens No its clear enough. But do we blame the Monday Morning Quarterback? Ding! Yes! Good job! You got it on the first try! Good for you. We blame it on the Monday morning quarterback. Case solved. ttfn
	__________________ The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

26th January 2010, 05:57 PM	#35
JimBenArm Based on a true story! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 13,017	Originally Posted by jvalens No its clear enough. But do we blame the Monday Morning Quarterback? Well, when the MMQ states that because the QB got sacked, he must have known that the other team was blitzing, and he deliberately held the ball so he'd get sacked so the other team could win, then yes, yes we do.
	__________________ *"JimBenArm is right"* Hokulele Mom

26th January 2010, 05:58 PM	#36
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38	Originally Posted by Dumb All Over Ding! Yes! Good job! You got it on the first try! Good for you. We blame it on the Monday morning quarterback. Case solved. ttfn Well, I guess that ends that. We can now all together walk into the sunset until yet another theory rises up again. When we can all push his false accusations down to the ground, lower his self esteem, and maybe throw in a couple "yo momma" jokes around. I don't want to say that im not a truther anymore, because theres always going to be that natural skepticism that i have grown throughout the years. To me, those three years in being a hardcore truther is comparable to an ex-alcoholic. Seemed like a good idea at first, but didn't know what the hell i was doing or saying for most of the time.
jvalens Student Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 38