[Split Thread] The US was responsible for the Russian Revolution?

dudalb · 26th January 2010, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by jmh423

Chavez doesn't hate the USA, just the thieves, liars and murderers presently in charge. It is Venezuelas Citgo that gives poor people in the US a great deal on their winter heating oil while Exxon and the boys stick it to em or let em freeze to death....How diabolical!

So you are saying that "Venezuela, Iran, and Russia all need the good old US democracy treatment like the ones Afghanistan in '01 got, Iraq in '03, Haiti in '04, Iran in '54, Chile in '73, Russia in '17, and if Chavez wasn't so popular would have gotten in '02.....They need US puppets and US media outlets to cure their pesky nature..Righto parky..Let Freedom Ring!!!

The US was responsible for the Russian Revolution?????????????????????

jmh423 · 26th January 2010, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

The US was responsible for the Russian Revolution?????????????????????

US Bankers prominantly Jacob Schiff was highly instrumental in funding the 1917 Bolchevik Revolution through Leon Trotsky...The US is we the people in theory, however US policy has been controlled by a thieving pack of bankers since the turn of the century....

Originally Posted by http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/ArticleDisplay.php?Article=FinalWarn07-3

Excerpt:

The Russian Revolution

"In 1905, while Russia was engaged in the Russo-Japanese War, the Communists tried to get the farmers to revolt against the Czar, but they refused. [Many of the leaders, including Lenin and Trotsky were exiled --ed].

After this aborted attempt, the Czar deposited $400,000,000 in the Chase Bank, National City Bank, Guaranty Trust Bank, the Hanover Trust Bank, and Manufacturers Trust Bank, and $80,000,000 in the Rothschild Bank in Paris, because he knew who was behind the growing revolutionary movement, and hoped to end it.

<snip>

Leon Trotsky Returns from New York

Leon Trotsky (whose real name was Lev Davidovich Bronstein, 1879-1940, the son of wealthy Jewish parents), was exiled from Russia because of his part in the aborted revolution in 1905 and was a reporter for Novy Mir, a communist paper in New York, from 1916-17. He had an expensive apartment and traveled around town in a chauffeur-driven limousine. He sometimes stayed at the Krupp mansion, and had been seen going in and out of Schiff's New York mansion.

Leon Trotsky was given $20 million in Jacob Schiff gold to help finance the revolution, which was deposited in a Warburg bank, then transferred to the Nya Banken (Nye Bank) in Stockholm, Sweden. According to the Knickerbocker Column in the New York Journal American on February 3, 1949:......

Edited by Locknar:

Edited, breach of Rule 4

dudalb · 26th January 2010, 04:07 PM

Oh, I should have guessed. Old and Tired Conspiracy Crap.
And it is just a coincidence that all the bankers involved in the alleged plot are Jewish?
I should really make book on how long before jmh drags out the Protocols of the Elders Of Zion.

jmh423 · 26th January 2010, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Oh, I should have guessed. Old and Tired Conspiracy Crap.
And it is just a coincidence that all the bankers involved in the alleged plot are Jewish?
I should really make book on how long before jmh drags out the Protocols of the Elders Of Zion.

Read the essay...It is all documented and of course it is true. Many of the banksters were Jews and many were Wasps. However Jacob Schiff of Kuhn and Loeb was the main cog as he directly gave Trotsky 20 million, a huge sum at the time. You can backpeddle all you want but the facts don't change...

Thanks

J. Wellington Wimpy · 26th January 2010, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

Press TV and Russia Today also reported this silliness.

In another thread, re: this very same topic, some other peculiarly obdurate Chavez cheerleader was mulishly refusing to credit this story, baldly referring to the sources cited therein as being nothing more that "right-wing websites."

The "right-wing web sites" in question, in this instance, were:

a.) Russia Today; and --
b.) El Diario Exterior, a state-owned and -sanctioned "house organ" of the Venezuelan government.

Long story short: there's simply no reasoning with the congenitally unreasonable, parky.

Davidlpf · 26th January 2010, 09:18 PM

It's Obamas' fault. As soon as he was elected he made a TARDIS and travelled back in time and started the Russian revolution. He made a quick stop stop in Nazi Germany to get some pointers on health care policy. He did this to prove socialism will work but for some reason skipped the part of history where the USSR fall apart. On his way back to the present he stopped off in Hawaii and forged his birth certificate and then went to Kenya and destroyed his real certificate. The he altered all the global temperature readings around the world so it would appear the world is getting warmer.

A bunch of greedy bankers nearly destroying a country just to get richer, nah that will never happen.

R.Mackey · 26th January 2010, 11:21 PM

I don't suppose the author ever bothered to study any history (at all)... otherwise, he might have learned that the US actually fought on the side of the White Russian Army -- the counter-revolutionaries -- with boots on the ground until April 1920.

Shocking lack of coordination we Yanks seem to have, innit?

Infoexcavator · 26th January 2010, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Davidlpf

It's Obamas' fault. As soon as he was elected he made a TARDIS and travelled back in time and started the Russian revolution. He made a quick stop stop in Nazi Germany to get some pointers on health care policy. He did this to prove socialism will work but for some reason skipped the part of history where the USSR fall apart. On his way back to the present he stopped off in Hawaii and forged his birth certificate and then went to Kenya and destroyed his real certificate. The he altered all the global temperature readings around the world so it would appear the world is getting warmer.

A bunch of greedy bankers nearly destroying a country just to get richer, nah that will never happen.

Edited by Tricky:

Edited for rule 12.

stop trying to derail this thread.

Davidlpf · 27th January 2010, 01:10 AM

It seems someone lacks a sense of humour.

Sword_Of_Truth · 27th January 2010, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by jmh423

Read the essay...It is all documented and of course it is true. Many of the banksters were Jews and many were Wasps. However Jacob Schiff of Kuhn and Loeb was the main cog as he directly gave Trotsky 20 million, a huge sum at the time. You can backpeddle all you want but the facts don't change...

Thanks

Let me guess... you got this "documentation" from the same place you got that American Bankers Digest?

Myron Proudfoot · 27th January 2010, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by J. Wellington Wimpy

In another thread, re: this very same topic, some other peculiarly obdurate Chavez cheerleader was mulishly refusing to credit this story, baldly referring to the sources cited therein as being nothing more that "right-wing websites."

The "right-wing web sites" in question, in this instance, were:

a.) Russia Today; and --
b.) El Diario Exterior, a state-owned and -sanctioned "house organ" of the Venezuelan government.

Long story short: there's simply no reasoning with the congenitally unreasonable, parky.

If you're referring to me, I also called Chavez a 'thug" and the "RW Website" was gatewaypundit, not the two you cited. Also quoted have been Reason, a libertarian website, a Brazilian newspaper and a Spanish newspaper. He may have said it, but it's yet to be proven.

As for me, I wouldn't be surprised if he DID say it, but a direct quote would be nice and not from a second-hand source...

goodbye.

jmh423 · 27th January 2010, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

I don't suppose the author ever bothered to study any history (at all)... otherwise, he might have learned that the US actually fought on the side of the White Russian Army -- the counter-revolutionaries -- with boots on the ground until April 1920.

Shocking lack of coordination we Yanks seem to have, innit?

You are correct, a lack of coordination indeed. My assertion is not that the American people sided with the Bolcheviks, or even that the US government overtly sided with them, but rather that several major New York Banking houses who had just pulled off the Federal Reserve scam DID fund the Reds, along with their masters, The Bank of England, and their partners in Germany...The author obviously DID study the unrevised history of the times citing articles from New York, London, and German papers. Thanks

dudalb · 27th January 2010, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Let me guess... you got this "documentation" from the same place you got that American Bankers Digest?

I first encountered the "American Jewish Bankers funded the Russian Revolution" in John Birch Society Literature. That should tell you all you need to know about how reliable it is.

Thunder · 27th January 2010, 11:13 AM

i blame the Jews.

twinstead · 27th January 2010, 11:41 AM

I see dead people

jmh423 · 27th January 2010, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I first encountered the "American Jewish Bankers funded the Russian Revolution" in John Birch Society Literature. That should tell you all you need to know about how reliable it is.

Does it matter to you if the fact that several US bankers, both Jewish and WASP, along with affiliates from London, and Germany did fund the Russian Revolution? Are you denying this? What does the John Birch Society have to do with this champ? Either it is true or it is not....Take a position, and quit weaseling around the issue by citing some unpopular group from the '50s and dodging the issue that is the topic of this thread.

Funding for the Russian Revolution came mainly from sources outsiide of Russia, namely US, UK, and German Banks:

TRUE

FALSE

Make a selection and back it up..Or continue with more of your usual drivel...

dudalb · 27th January 2010, 03:00 PM

FALSE.
Your sources are crap,frankly.
No reputable Historian takes them seriously.

jmh423 · 27th January 2010, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

FALSE.
Your sources are crap,frankly.
No reputable Historian takes them seriously.

Well that is a reasoned response backed up by documentation that we all have come to expect from you...Excellent skeptical critical thinking debunk sir....kudos

jmh423 · 27th January 2010, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

FALSE.
Your sources are crap,frankly.
No reputable Historian takes them seriously.

Well that is the type of concise, well reasoned response that we all have come to expect from you...Excellent skeptical critical thinking debunk sir....kudos

garethdjb · 27th January 2010, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by jmh423

Funding for the Russian Revolution came mainly from sources outsiide of Russia, namely US, UK, and German Banks:

TRUE

FALSE

I'd go with false there then, if you have a source other than Anthony Sutton that'd be nice.

Rogue1stclass · 27th January 2010, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by jmh423

You are correct, a lack of coordination indeed. My assertion is not that the American people sided with the Bolcheviks, or even that the US government overtly sided with them, but rather that several major New York Banking houses who had just pulled off the Federal Reserve scam DID fund the Reds, along with their masters, The Bank of England, and their partners in Germany...The author obviously DID study the unrevised history of the times citing articles from New York, London, and German papers. Thanks

So...

You are saying you were wrong about us giving Russia the "good old US democracy treatment" in 1917 because the US actually had no hand in the overthrow of the Russian monarchy? That apparently you mixed up the US Government with a consortium of bankers headed by the Bank of England and mistook private loans for some governmental program?

Glad we cleared that up! Thanks for your candor, JMH!

Brainache · 27th January 2010, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Rogue1stclass

So...

You are saying you were wrong about us giving Russia the "good old US democracy treatment" in 1917 because the US actually had no hand in the overthrow of the Russian monarchy? That apparently you mixed up the US Government with a consortium of bankers headed by the Bank of England and mistook private loans for some governmental program?

Glad we cleared that up! Thanks for your candor, JMH!

Bloody Poms dunnit. Innit?

Bloody Royal Families bumping each other off, history as usual. Carry on, nothing to see here.

Moss · 27th January 2010, 11:56 PM

Silly me, I always thought the Germans (that's the Kaiser, not just some bankers) partly funded Lenin and his ilk to undermine the Russian front because it was necessary to close that second front. Thanks for pointing out the obvious and obilgatory Jewish conspiracy.
Also: what did Queen Anne ever do to you to slander her so? That is not very nice of you.

Caustic Logic · 28th January 2010, 01:34 AM

You know, I read a good chunk of Anthony Sutton's "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution." It did have a weird feel to it, but compelling in the detail it gave. Names, dates, police reports, weird revolutionaries bailed out by certain fatcats, lots of connections all over, some speculation but lots of points illustratted and cited with sources, quotes, etc. I had the impression it was possibly pretty solid, but hard to verify in places.

The version of the theory I saw, then seemed worth a detailed debunk or critique or even a dreaded "closer look" or "careful consideration." Something better than the responses so far.

Whaddya know, it is online:
http://www.reformed-theology.org/htm...ik_revolution/

Originally Posted by preface

Since the early 1920s, numerous pamphlets and articles, even a few books, have sought to forge a link between "international bankers" and "Bolshevik revolutionaries." Rarely have these attempts been supported by hard evidence, and never have such attempts been argued within the framework of a scientific methodology. Indeed, some of the "evidence" used in these efforts has been fraudulent, some has been irrelevant, much cannot be checked. Examination of the topic by academic writers has been studiously avoided; probably because the hypothesis offends the neat dichotomy of capitalists versus Communists (and everyone knows, of course, that these are bitter enemies). Moreover, because a great deal that has been written borders on the absurd, a sound academic reputation could easily be wrecked on the shoals of ridicule. Reason enough to avoid the topic.

Fortunately, the State Department Decimal File, particularly the 861.00 section, contains extensive documentation on the hypothesized link. When the evidence in these official papers is merged with nonofficial evidence from biographies, personal papers, and conventional histories, a truly fascinating story emerges.

We find there was a link between some New York international bankers and many revolutionaries, including Bolsheviks. These banking gentlemen — who are here identified — had a financial stake in, and were rooting for, the success of the Bolshevik Revolution.

Who, why — and for how much — is the story in this book.

Antony C. Sutton

March 1974

And what does jmh423 think of Sutton's version?

Jono · 28th January 2010, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by jmh423

Read the essay...It is all documented and of course it is true. Many of the banksters were Jews and many were Wasps. However Jacob Schiff of Kuhn and Loeb was the main cog as he directly gave Trotsky 20 million, a huge sum at the time. You can backpeddle all you want but the facts don't change...

Thanks

Well I do not know if Schiff funded Trotsky with 20 million. Schiff did however fund the Japanese when they wared with Tzarist Russia, supposedly in part due to the oppression the russian jews had experienced in those times under the Tzar.
The jewish communities in Russia at the time, as elsewhere, likely thought they had everything to gain by a new government there, and by supporting the communist/socialistic ideology, so I wouldn't be surprised of any funding to the Menshiviks, Bund, Bolsheviks et al. Actually, it would be odd had they not given a toss.

aggle-rithm · 28th January 2010, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I first encountered the "American Jewish Bankers funded the Russian Revolution" in John Birch Society Literature. That should tell you all you need to know about how reliable it is.

Those Russians shouldn't have driven out the Jewish peasants. They all went to America and started banks, just to get even.

Alferd_Packer · 28th January 2010, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

i blame the Jews.

I blame Lisa.

twinstead · 28th January 2010, 06:21 AM

I DO consider "the US was responsible for the Russian Revolution" to be a little hyperbolic, no matter what.

aggle-rithm · 28th January 2010, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by twinstead

I DO consider "the US was responsible for the Russian Revolution" to be a little hyperbolic, no matter what.

I think Czar Nicholas was more responsible for the Russian Revolution than the US was. Doesn't mean he wanted it to happen.

Moss · 28th January 2010, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic

Whaddya know, it is online:
http://www.reformed-theology.org/htm...ik_revolution/

And what does jmh423 think of Sutton's version?

Are you by chance referring to

Quote:

Moveover, when statements and assertions are not supported by hard evidence and where attempts to unearth hard evidence lead in a circle back to the starting point — particularly when everyone is quoting everyone else — then we must reject the story as spurious. There is no concrete evidence that Jews were involved in the Bolshevik Revolution because they were Jewish. There may indeed have been a higher proportion of Jews involved, but given tsarist treatment of Jews, what else would we expect?

?
To be found here

dudalb · 28th January 2010, 02:59 PM

I am still trying to figure out why the hell International Bankers would support a Marxist Revolution anyway. I could see some of Jewish Descent hoping that the Czar would rot in hell (and who can blame them?) but there were other Anti Czarist groups other then the Bolsheviks they could have supported.
But jmh423 did me a favor: He reminded me to pre order the 45th Anniversary SE of "Dr Zhivago" out in a few months.....

Jono · 28th January 2010, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

but there were other Anti Czarist groups other then the Bolsheviks they could have supported.

Well yes there were several notable ones. In fact, Trotsky was a member of the Menshiviks before he hopped over to Lenin's lap.

Caustic Logic · 28th January 2010, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I am still trying to figure out why the hell International Bankers would support a Marxist Revolution anyway. I could see some of Jewish Descent hoping that the Czar would rot in hell (and who can blame them?) but there were other Anti Czarist groups other then the Bolsheviks they could have supported.
But jmh423 did me a favor: He reminded me to pre order the 45th Anniversary SE of "Dr Zhivago" out in a few months.....

The question is a good one. I don't have a firm grasp on even the implied possible explanations. It would have to be something grans scale that you'd be inclined to wave away as silly. The subsection that I think explains that is
http://www.reformed-theology.org/htm...OLY%20ALLIANCE

Originally Posted by Sutton

What motive explains this coalition of capitalists and Bolsheviks?

Russia was then — and is today — the largest untapped market in the world. Moreover, Russia, then and now, constituted the greatest potential competitive threat to American industrial and financial supremacy. (A glance at a world map is sufficient to spotlight the geographical difference between the vast land mass of Russia and the smaller United States.) Wall Street must have cold shivers when it visualizes Russia as a second super American industrial giant.

But why allow Russia to become a competitor and a challenge to U.S. supremacy?

He then answers it somehow, below. Something about development. ??

I also note in broad sweeps, having a Communist superpower out there helped circle the wagons in the West. They were against money, religion, freedom, Jews even, and so on. Response: anti-commie sympathies, embrace of unbridled capitalism, religious institutions (In God We Trust makes it on the dollar, good metaphor) PLUS justifying a decades-long state of emergency with secret wars, clandestine surveillance, harrassments, assassinations, etc. If you could control it or keep it from really biting you bad, a moster like that could be useful.

I'm not saying I believe there was some grand plot like that, but I can see it and would consider it.

J. Wellington Wimpy · 28th January 2010, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by J. Wellington Wimpy

b.) El Diario Exterior, a state-owned and -sanctioned "house organ" of the Venezuelan government.

Originally Posted by Myron Proudfoot

but a direct quote would be nice and not from a second-hand source....

Chavez's own trained pet "newspaper" of record a "second-hand source" re: Chavez's own public statements...?!?

Pfffftt.

MaGZ · 1st February 2010, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Oh, I should have guessed. Old and Tired Conspiracy Crap.
And it is just a coincidence that all the bankers involved in the alleged plot are Jewish?
I should really make book on how long before jmh drags out the Protocols of the Elders Of Zion.

Jews played a major role in the Bolshvik Revolution. Some of them came from New York City.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html

beachnut · 1st February 2010, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Jews played a major role in the Bolshvik Revolution. Some of them came from New York City.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html

You cite a dirt dumb neoNAZI source... lol

There is nothing Jews did not do according to you and your neoNAZI partners in paranoid conspiracy theories. Oops, it was the Lutherans not the Jews. Karl Marx father converted to Lutheranism. Lenin was was baptized into the Russian Orthodox Church. Stalin was more into killing Jews when he came up with paranoid plots like ...

What dirt dumb neoNAZI came up with this idiotic junk? Oh, it was Hitler who started "Judeo-Bolshevism". Your hero used this in Nazi Germany to equate Jews with communists. Good old Hitler implied the communist movement served Jewish interests. And your hero implied all Jews were communists.

Why do you pick the biggest looser in history to glean your dirt dumb delusions from?

Matthew Ellard · 1st February 2010, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Jews played a major role in the Bolshvik Revolution. Some of them came from New York City.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html

How humerous, a quote from the IHR. Trotsky worked as a journalist in New York. Do you think he had something to do with the Russian revolution?

With the notable exception of Lenin...most of the leading Communists who took control of Russia in 1917-20 were Jews

Well isn't that odd....Stalin trained as a christian priest. Do you think he was secretly jewish? What about Pavel Axelrod, Mikhail Kalinin, Ivanovich Molotov, Grigori Ordzhonokidze, and so on...

Do you think the Czar's officers pogroms against jews may have made more jewish people anti-Romanov and joined the opposition? Do you have any opinion of your own?

Thunder · 1st February 2010, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Jews played a major role in the Bolshvik Revolution. Some of them came from New York City.

big deal. by the mid 1930's, most Jews were out of high positions of power within the USSR.

the anti-Semitic purge was fully complete by 1952.

Travis · 1st February 2010, 06:47 PM

If we suppose that Wall Street created modern Communism why did they not save it back in 1989? Change of heart?

26th January 2010, 03:41 PM	#1
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	The US was responsible for the Russian Revolution? Originally Posted by jmh423 Chavez doesn't hate the USA, just the thieves, liars and murderers presently in charge. It is Venezuelas Citgo that gives poor people in the US a great deal on their winter heating oil while Exxon and the boys stick it to em or let em freeze to death....How diabolical! So you are saying that "Venezuela, Iran, and Russia all need the good old US democracy treatment like the ones Afghanistan in '01 got, Iraq in '03, Haiti in '04, Iran in '54, Chile in '73, Russia in '17, and if Chavez wasn't so popular would have gotten in '02.....They need US puppets and US media outlets to cure their pesky nature..Righto parky..Let Freedom Ring!!! The US was responsible for the Russian Revolution?????????????????????

26th January 2010, 04:12 PM	#4
jmh423 Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 731	Originally Posted by dudalb Oh, I should have guessed. Old and Tired Conspiracy Crap. And it is just a coincidence that all the bankers involved in the alleged plot are Jewish? I should really make book on how long before jmh drags out the Protocols of the Elders Of Zion. Read the essay...It is all documented and of course it is true. Many of the banksters were Jews and many were Wasps. However Jacob Schiff of Kuhn and Loeb was the main cog as he directly gave Trotsky 20 million, a huge sum at the time. You can backpeddle all you want but the facts don't change... Thanks
jmh423 Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 731

26th January 2010, 04:57 PM	#5
J. Wellington Wimpy Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Under your bed. And pantsless. Posts: 356	Originally Posted by parky76 Press TV and Russia Today also reported this silliness. In another thread, re: this very same topic, some other peculiarly obdurate Chavez cheerleader was mulishly refusing to credit this story, baldly referring to the sources cited therein as being nothing more that "right-wing websites." The "right-wing web sites" in question, in this instance, were: a.) Russia Today; and -- b.) El Diario Exterior, a state-owned and -sanctioned "house organ" of the Venezuelan government. Long story short: there's simply no reasoning with the congenitally unreasonable, parky.
	__________________ "There is a fine line between climate science and climate evangelism. I am for climate science." -- Indian Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh "I have a doctorate and I can KICK YOUR ASS!!!" -- Harley Quinn, Batman #663

26th January 2010, 09:18 PM	#6
Davidlpf Muse Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 538	It's Obamas' fault. As soon as he was elected he made a TARDIS and travelled back in time and started the Russian revolution. He made a quick stop stop in Nazi Germany to get some pointers on health care policy. He did this to prove socialism will work but for some reason skipped the part of history where the USSR fall apart. On his way back to the present he stopped off in Hawaii and forged his birth certificate and then went to Kenya and destroyed his real certificate. The he altered all the global temperature readings around the world so it would appear the world is getting warmer. A bunch of greedy bankers nearly destroying a country just to get richer, nah that will never happen.
Davidlpf Muse Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 538	__________________ http://davidsuniverse.wordpress.com/

26th January 2010, 11:21 PM	#7
R.Mackey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The armpit of L.A. Posts: 7,857	I don't suppose the author ever bothered to study any history (at all)... otherwise, he might have learned that the US actually fought on the side of the White Russian Army -- the counter-revolutionaries -- with boots on the ground until April 1920. Shocking lack of coordination we Yanks seem to have, innit?
	__________________ "Nothing real can defeat us. Nothing unreal exists." -B. Banzai VT VENIANT OMNES

26th January 2010, 04:07 PM	#3
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	Oh, I should have guessed. Old and Tired Conspiracy Crap. And it is just a coincidence that all the bankers involved in the alleged plot are Jewish? I should really make book on how long before jmh drags out the Protocols of the Elders Of Zion.

27th January 2010, 01:10 AM	#9
Davidlpf Muse Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 538	It seems someone lacks a sense of humour.
Davidlpf Muse Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 538	__________________ http://davidsuniverse.wordpress.com/

27th January 2010, 01:17 AM	#10
Sword_Of_Truth Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11,497	Originally Posted by jmh423 Read the essay...It is all documented and of course it is true. Many of the banksters were Jews and many were Wasps. However Jacob Schiff of Kuhn and Loeb was the main cog as he directly gave Trotsky 20 million, a huge sum at the time. You can backpeddle all you want but the facts don't change... Thanks Let me guess... you got this "documentation" from the same place you got that American Bankers Digest?

27th January 2010, 08:13 AM	#11
Myron Proudfoot Muse Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Washington DC area. Posts: 959	Originally Posted by J. Wellington Wimpy In another thread, re: this very same topic, some other peculiarly obdurate Chavez cheerleader was mulishly refusing to credit this story, baldly referring to the sources cited therein as being nothing more that "right-wing websites." The "right-wing web sites" in question, in this instance, were: a.) Russia Today; and -- b.) El Diario Exterior, a state-owned and -sanctioned "house organ" of the Venezuelan government. Long story short: there's simply no reasoning with the congenitally unreasonable, parky. If you're referring to me, I also called Chavez a 'thug" and the "RW Website" was gatewaypundit, not the two you cited. Also quoted have been Reason, a libertarian website, a Brazilian newspaper and a Spanish newspaper. He may have said it, but it's yet to be proven. As for me, I wouldn't be surprised if he DID say it, but a direct quote would be nice and not from a second-hand source... goodbye.
	__________________ That's odd. That's very odd. Wouldn't you say that's very odd?? Last edited by Myron Proudfoot; 27th January 2010 at 08:19 AM. Reason: to tone it down a bit

27th January 2010, 09:01 AM	#12
jmh423 Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 731	Originally Posted by R.Mackey I don't suppose the author ever bothered to study any history (at all)... otherwise, he might have learned that the US actually fought on the side of the White Russian Army -- the counter-revolutionaries -- with boots on the ground until April 1920. Shocking lack of coordination we Yanks seem to have, innit? You are correct, a lack of coordination indeed. My assertion is not that the American people sided with the Bolcheviks, or even that the US government overtly sided with them, but rather that several major New York Banking houses who had just pulled off the Federal Reserve scam DID fund the Reds, along with their masters, The Bank of England, and their partners in Germany...The author obviously DID study the unrevised history of the times citing articles from New York, London, and German papers. Thanks
jmh423 Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 731

27th January 2010, 11:01 AM	#13
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth Let me guess... you got this "documentation" from the same place you got that American Bankers Digest? I first encountered the "American Jewish Bankers funded the Russian Revolution" in John Birch Society Literature. That should tell you all you need to know about how reliable it is.

27th January 2010, 11:13 AM	#14
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	i blame the Jews.

27th January 2010, 11:41 AM	#15
twinstead Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Big corner office in NWO Towers Posts: 11,572	I see dead people
	__________________ You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison

27th January 2010, 02:24 PM	#16
jmh423 Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 731	Originally Posted by dudalb I first encountered the "American Jewish Bankers funded the Russian Revolution" in John Birch Society Literature. That should tell you all you need to know about how reliable it is. Does it matter to you if the fact that several US bankers, both Jewish and WASP, along with affiliates from London, and Germany did fund the Russian Revolution? Are you denying this? What does the John Birch Society have to do with this champ? Either it is true or it is not....Take a position, and quit weaseling around the issue by citing some unpopular group from the '50s and dodging the issue that is the topic of this thread. Funding for the Russian Revolution came mainly from sources outsiide of Russia, namely US, UK, and German Banks: TRUE FALSE Make a selection and back it up..Or continue with more of your usual drivel...
jmh423 Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 731

27th January 2010, 03:00 PM	#17
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	FALSE. Your sources are crap,frankly. No reputable Historian takes them seriously.

27th January 2010, 03:36 PM	#18
jmh423 Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 731	Originally Posted by dudalb FALSE. Your sources are crap,frankly. No reputable Historian takes them seriously. Well that is a reasoned response backed up by documentation that we all have come to expect from you...Excellent skeptical critical thinking debunk sir....kudos
jmh423 Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 731

27th January 2010, 04:39 PM	#19
jmh423 Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 731	Originally Posted by dudalb FALSE. Your sources are crap,frankly. No reputable Historian takes them seriously. Well that is the type of concise, well reasoned response that we all have come to expect from you...Excellent skeptical critical thinking debunk sir....kudos
jmh423 Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 731

27th January 2010, 05:25 PM	#20
garethdjb Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 639	Originally Posted by jmh423 Funding for the Russian Revolution came mainly from sources outsiide of Russia, namely US, UK, and German Banks: TRUE FALSE I'd go with false there then, if you have a source other than Anthony Sutton that'd be nice.
garethdjb Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 639	__________________ " It's a cheerful philosophy and I've heard it from people before... they're all dead now though" - Sandy

27th January 2010, 06:14 PM	#21
Rogue1stclass Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 842	Originally Posted by jmh423 You are correct, a lack of coordination indeed. My assertion is not that the American people sided with the Bolcheviks, or even that the US government overtly sided with them, but rather that several major New York Banking houses who had just pulled off the Federal Reserve scam DID fund the Reds, along with their masters, The Bank of England, and their partners in Germany...The author obviously DID study the unrevised history of the times citing articles from New York, London, and German papers. Thanks So... You are saying you were wrong about us giving Russia the "good old US democracy treatment" in 1917 because the US actually had no hand in the overthrow of the Russian monarchy? That apparently you mixed up the US Government with a consortium of bankers headed by the Bank of England and mistook private loans for some governmental program? Glad we cleared that up! Thanks for your candor, JMH!
Rogue1stclass Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 842

27th January 2010, 10:37 PM	#22
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Knob Hill. Posts: 9,086	Originally Posted by Rogue1stclass So... You are saying you were wrong about us giving Russia the "good old US democracy treatment" in 1917 because the US actually had no hand in the overthrow of the Russian monarchy? That apparently you mixed up the US Government with a consortium of bankers headed by the Bank of England and mistook private loans for some governmental program? Glad we cleared that up! Thanks for your candor, JMH! Bloody Poms dunnit. Innit? Bloody Royal Families bumping each other off, history as usual. Carry on, nothing to see here.

27th January 2010, 11:56 PM	#23
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Silly me, I always thought the Germans (that's the Kaiser, not just some bankers) partly funded Lenin and his ilk to undermine the Russian front because it was necessary to close that second front. Thanks for pointing out the obvious and obilgatory Jewish conspiracy. Also: what did Queen Anne ever do to you to slander her so? That is not very nice of you.

28th January 2010, 01:34 AM	#24
Caustic Logic Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 3,979	You know, I read a good chunk of Anthony Sutton's "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution." It did have a weird feel to it, but compelling in the detail it gave. Names, dates, police reports, weird revolutionaries bailed out by certain fatcats, lots of connections all over, some speculation but lots of points illustratted and cited with sources, quotes, etc. I had the impression it was possibly pretty solid, but hard to verify in places. The version of the theory I saw, then seemed worth a detailed debunk or critique or even a dreaded "closer look" or "careful consideration." Something better than the responses so far. Whaddya know, it is online: http://www.reformed-theology.org/htm...ik_revolution/ Originally Posted by preface Since the early 1920s, numerous pamphlets and articles, even a few books, have sought to forge a link between "international bankers" and "Bolshevik revolutionaries." Rarely have these attempts been supported by hard evidence, and never have such attempts been argued within the framework of a scientific methodology. Indeed, some of the "evidence" used in these efforts has been fraudulent, some has been irrelevant, much cannot be checked. Examination of the topic by academic writers has been studiously avoided; probably because the hypothesis offends the neat dichotomy of capitalists versus Communists (and everyone knows, of course, that these are bitter enemies). Moreover, because a great deal that has been written borders on the absurd, a sound academic reputation could easily be wrecked on the shoals of ridicule. Reason enough to avoid the topic. Fortunately, the State Department Decimal File, particularly the 861.00 section, contains extensive documentation on the hypothesized link. When the evidence in these official papers is merged with nonofficial evidence from biographies, personal papers, and conventional histories, a truly fascinating story emerges. We find there was a link between some New York international bankers and many revolutionaries, including Bolsheviks. These banking gentlemen — who are here identified — had a financial stake in, and were rooting for, the success of the Bolshevik Revolution. Who, why — and for how much — is the story in this book. Antony C. Sutton March 1974 And what does jmh423 think of Sutton's version?

28th January 2010, 03:11 AM	#25
Jono Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,536	Originally Posted by jmh423 Read the essay...It is all documented and of course it is true. Many of the banksters were Jews and many were Wasps. However Jacob Schiff of Kuhn and Loeb was the main cog as he directly gave Trotsky 20 million, a huge sum at the time. You can backpeddle all you want but the facts don't change... Thanks Well I do not know if Schiff funded Trotsky with 20 million. Schiff did however fund the Japanese when they wared with Tzarist Russia, supposedly in part due to the oppression the russian jews had experienced in those times under the Tzar. The jewish communities in Russia at the time, as elsewhere, likely thought they had everything to gain by a new government there, and by supporting the communist/socialistic ideology, so I wouldn't be surprised of any funding to the Menshiviks, Bund, Bolsheviks et al. Actually, it would be odd had they not given a toss.
	__________________ "I don't believe I ever saw an Oklahoman who wouldn't fight at the drop of a hat -- and frequently drop the hat himself." - Robert E. Howard

28th January 2010, 05:49 AM	#26
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,149	Originally Posted by dudalb I first encountered the "American Jewish Bankers funded the Russian Revolution" in John Birch Society Literature. That should tell you all you need to know about how reliable it is. Those Russians shouldn't have driven out the Jewish peasants. They all went to America and started banks, just to get even.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

28th January 2010, 05:53 AM	#27
Alferd_Packer Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7,193	Originally Posted by parky76 i blame the Jews. I blame Lisa.
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28th January 2010, 06:21 AM	#28
twinstead Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Big corner office in NWO Towers Posts: 11,572	I DO consider "the US was responsible for the Russian Revolution" to be a little hyperbolic, no matter what.
	__________________ You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison

28th January 2010, 10:26 AM	#29
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,149	Originally Posted by twinstead I DO consider "the US was responsible for the Russian Revolution" to be a little hyperbolic, no matter what. I think Czar Nicholas was more responsible for the Russian Revolution than the US was. Doesn't mean he wanted it to happen.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

28th January 2010, 01:41 PM	#30
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Originally Posted by Caustic Logic Whaddya know, it is online: http://www.reformed-theology.org/htm...ik_revolution/ And what does jmh423 think of Sutton's version? Are you by chance referring to Quote: Moveover, when statements and assertions are not supported by hard evidence and where attempts to unearth hard evidence lead in a circle back to the starting point — particularly when everyone is quoting everyone else — then we must reject the story as spurious. There is no concrete evidence that Jews were involved in the Bolshevik Revolution because they were Jewish. There may indeed have been a higher proportion of Jews involved, but given tsarist treatment of Jews, what else would we expect? ? To be found here

28th January 2010, 02:59 PM	#31
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	I am still trying to figure out why the hell International Bankers would support a Marxist Revolution anyway. I could see some of Jewish Descent hoping that the Czar would rot in hell (and who can blame them?) but there were other Anti Czarist groups other then the Bolsheviks they could have supported. But jmh423 did me a favor: He reminded me to pre order the 45th Anniversary SE of "Dr Zhivago" out in a few months.....

28th January 2010, 03:04 PM	#32
Jono Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,536	Originally Posted by dudalb but there were other Anti Czarist groups other then the Bolsheviks they could have supported. Well yes there were several notable ones. In fact, Trotsky was a member of the Menshiviks before he hopped over to Lenin's lap.
	__________________ "I don't believe I ever saw an Oklahoman who wouldn't fight at the drop of a hat -- and frequently drop the hat himself." - Robert E. Howard

28th January 2010, 03:48 PM	#33
Caustic Logic Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 3,979	Originally Posted by dudalb I am still trying to figure out why the hell International Bankers would support a Marxist Revolution anyway. I could see some of Jewish Descent hoping that the Czar would rot in hell (and who can blame them?) but there were other Anti Czarist groups other then the Bolsheviks they could have supported. But jmh423 did me a favor: He reminded me to pre order the 45th Anniversary SE of "Dr Zhivago" out in a few months..... The question is a good one. I don't have a firm grasp on even the implied possible explanations. It would have to be something grans scale that you'd be inclined to wave away as silly. The subsection that I think explains that is http://www.reformed-theology.org/htm...OLY%20ALLIANCE Originally Posted by Sutton What motive explains this coalition of capitalists and Bolsheviks? Russia was then — and is today — the largest untapped market in the world. Moreover, Russia, then and now, constituted the greatest potential competitive threat to American industrial and financial supremacy. (A glance at a world map is sufficient to spotlight the geographical difference between the vast land mass of Russia and the smaller United States.) Wall Street must have cold shivers when it visualizes Russia as a second super American industrial giant. But why allow Russia to become a competitor and a challenge to U.S. supremacy? He then answers it somehow, below. Something about development. ?? I also note in broad sweeps, having a Communist superpower out there helped circle the wagons in the West. They were against money, religion, freedom, Jews even, and so on. Response: anti-commie sympathies, embrace of unbridled capitalism, religious institutions (In God We Trust makes it on the dollar, good metaphor) PLUS justifying a decades-long state of emergency with secret wars, clandestine surveillance, harrassments, assassinations, etc. If you could control it or keep it from really biting you bad, a moster like that could be useful. I'm not saying I believe there was some grand plot like that, but I can see it and would consider it.

28th January 2010, 04:12 PM	#34
J. Wellington Wimpy Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Under your bed. And pantsless. Posts: 356	Originally Posted by J. Wellington Wimpy b.) El Diario Exterior, a state-owned and -sanctioned "house organ" of the Venezuelan government. Originally Posted by Myron Proudfoot but a direct quote would be nice and not from a second-hand source.... Chavez's own trained pet "newspaper" of record a "second-hand source" re: Chavez's own public statements...?!? Pfffftt.
	__________________ "There is a fine line between climate science and climate evangelism. I am for climate science." -- Indian Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh "I have a doctorate and I can KICK YOUR ASS!!!" -- Harley Quinn, Batman #663

1st February 2010, 05:05 PM	#35
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319	Originally Posted by dudalb Oh, I should have guessed. Old and Tired Conspiracy Crap. And it is just a coincidence that all the bankers involved in the alleged plot are Jewish? I should really make book on how long before jmh drags out the Protocols of the Elders Of Zion. Jews played a major role in the Bolshvik Revolution. Some of them came from New York City. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319

1st February 2010, 05:51 PM	#36
beachnut Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dog House Posts: 19,891	Originally Posted by MaGZ Jews played a major role in the Bolshvik Revolution. Some of them came from New York City. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html You cite a dirt dumb neoNAZI source... lol There is nothing Jews did not do according to you and your neoNAZI partners in paranoid conspiracy theories. Oops, it was the Lutherans not the Jews. Karl Marx father converted to Lutheranism. Lenin was was baptized into the Russian Orthodox Church. Stalin was more into killing Jews when he came up with paranoid plots like ... What dirt dumb neoNAZI came up with this idiotic junk? Oh, it was Hitler who started "Judeo-Bolshevism". Your hero used this in Nazi Germany to equate Jews with communists. Good old Hitler implied the communist movement served Jewish interests. And your hero implied all Jews were communists. Why do you pick the biggest looser in history to glean your dirt dumb delusions from?
	Last edited by beachnut; 1st February 2010 at 05:54 PM.

1st February 2010, 06:01 PM	#37
Matthew Ellard Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 915	Originally Posted by MaGZ Jews played a major role in the Bolshvik Revolution. Some of them came from New York City. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html How humerous, a quote from the IHR. Trotsky worked as a journalist in New York. Do you think he had something to do with the Russian revolution? With the notable exception of Lenin...most of the leading Communists who took control of Russia in 1917-20 were Jews Well isn't that odd....Stalin trained as a christian priest. Do you think he was secretly jewish? What about Pavel Axelrod, Mikhail Kalinin, Ivanovich Molotov, Grigori Ordzhonokidze, and so on... Do you think the Czar's officers pogroms against jews may have made more jewish people anti-Romanov and joined the opposition? Do you have any opinion of your own?
Matthew Ellard Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 915