Was Abraham Lincoln an atheist?

Cainkane1 · 3rd February 2010, 09:03 AM

Abraham Lincoln is often listed as an atheist but unless I'm mistaken he had seances at the white house on a regular basis. Was it just him humoring his wife or was he a believer himself?

Minarvia · 3rd February 2010, 09:06 AM

I don't really know. He held the seances to humour his wife, I recall reading. He did read the bible himself on occasion, but I also recall that his Gettysburg Address did not have god references in it when he wrote it but others pressured him to add them.

Perhaps he was agnostic? I guess we'll have to wait for the experts on this one.

Sledge · 3rd February 2010, 09:09 AM

Sorry, I don't see how being an atheist precludes one from believing in ghosts. Could you explain?

Dave Rogers · 3rd February 2010, 09:31 AM

Given that the Christian faith is pretty specific about post-death options for the soul, and haunting isn't one of them, it seems to me that being a Christian precludes one rather more from believing in ghosts.

Dave

uruk · 3rd February 2010, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Sledge

Sorry, I don't see how being an atheist precludes one from believing in ghosts. Could you explain?

I think that if you are the type of athiest that does not believe in the existance of a god due to a lack of evidence, you would probably apply that same line of thought to ghosts.

But, of course, there are many different types of atheists out there.

Sledge · 3rd February 2010, 09:58 AM

Even so, what if I've seen something that makes me think there might be something after death? Believing there's no evidence for god/s doesn't mean someone can't think there's evidence of other supernatural possibilities.

uruk · 3rd February 2010, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Sledge

Even so, what if I've seen something that makes me think there might be something after death? Believing there's no evidence for god/s doesn't mean someone can't think there's evidence of other supernatural possibilities.

I didn't say otherwise. I just said that thinking criticaly about one supernatural subject would probably make you the type of person that would think criticaly about another supernatural subject.

Gods and ghosts are two different supernatural subjects.

AvalonXQ · 3rd February 2010, 10:30 AM

The topic is a matter of some controversy. Personally, based on the things he wrote, I think Mr. Lincoln was a believer, or became one while in office.

Cainkane1 · 3rd February 2010, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Sledge

Sorry, I don't see how being an atheist precludes one from believing in ghosts. Could you explain?

Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural.

uruk · 3rd February 2010, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Given that the Christian faith is pretty specific about post-death options for the soul, and haunting isn't one of them, it seems to me that being a Christian precludes one rather more from believing in ghosts.

Dave

Near as I can tell in a short google search is that christians* do believe in ghosts, but, the ghosts are spiritual agents (demons and angles) and not the spirits of the dearly departed.

According to one website ministry, (http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/hauntings.htm) It claims, "if you see the ghost of a dead relative or friend, it is a demon using the image of the dearly departed to fool you into something".
I don't know if this is shared by all christian sects. but it seems to fall in line with the christian doctrine.

I would assume that the number of christians who believe in ghost might be due to the consequences of buying into the belief of one supernatual idea may make you supceptable to buying into another supernatural belief. Just my opinion.

* According to a harris pole 50% of people who claime to be christian believe in ghosts
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

ponderingturtle · 3rd February 2010, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural.

Ah they will get excommunicated by the Atheist Inquisition.

AvalonXQ · 3rd February 2010, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Ah they will get excommunicated by the Atheist Inquisition.

Will that prohibit them from attending atheist non-churches, or only partaking in the non-sacraments?

KingMerv00 · 3rd February 2010, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural.

SUPPOSED to? Atheists can believe in anything but god(s).

Sledge · 3rd February 2010, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by uruk

I didn't say otherwise. I just said that thinking criticaly about one supernatural subject would probably make you the type of person that would think criticaly about another supernatural subject.

Gods and ghosts are two different supernatural subjects.

I'd say that experience on this forum proves otherwise. How often do you see people who critically analyse all sorts of woo, and yet are happy to insist that telepathy/ghosts/perpetual motion machines/whatever are real? The ability to apply critical thinking to one subject does not automatically mean that person will apply it to all subjects.

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural.

Wrong. Atheists don't believe in god/s. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Achán hiNidráne · 3rd February 2010, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural.

No, atheists aren't supposed to believe in God.

Tricky · 3rd February 2010, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural.

Not true. I became an atheist long before I gave up woo.

Minarvia · 3rd February 2010, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Sledge

Sorry, I don't see how being an atheist precludes one from believing in ghosts. Could you explain?

If you are replying to me I never said he couldn't or didn't believe in ghosts. He knew there were quacks out there and didn't trust anyone who stepped forward claiming to have a "gift" of reaching their dead sons. That's what I meant when I said he allowed the seances to humour Mary.

Sledge · 3rd February 2010, 01:31 PM

I was replying to the OP. Kinda hoping he'd expand on what he meant, which he has, and it's become clear he's not totally up to speed on what "atheist" means. Now that about six people have explained it, he should be alright.

uruk · 3rd February 2010, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Sledge

I'd say that experience on this forum proves otherwise. How often do you see people who critically analyse all sorts of woo, and yet are happy to insist that telepathy/ghosts/perpetual motion machines/whatever are real? The ability to apply critical thinking to one subject does not automatically mean that person will apply it to all subjects.

I guess we could do a poll to verify, but I think that most athiests in this forum probably do not believe in ghosts either. Supernatural birds of a feather tend to flock together and all that.

Any athiests here believe in ghosts as generally defined by the popular media, meaning the spirit or non corporeal form of a departed person still wondering the earth occasionally interacting with the breathing?

devnull · 3rd February 2010, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Tricky

Not true. I became an atheist long before I gave up woo.

See, if atheist was like theism, the correct response to this would be:

"You werent a true atheist"

Hux · 3rd February 2010, 05:14 PM

Sounds more like a Spiritualist, which has always been popular. or maybe he was just keeping 'her indoors' sweet?

KingMerv00 · 3rd February 2010, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by uruk

I guess we could do a poll to verify, but I think that most athiests in this forum probably do not believe in ghosts either. Supernatural birds of a feather tend to flock together and all that.

Any athiests here believe in ghosts as generally defined by the popular media, meaning the spirit or non corporeal form of a departed person still wondering the earth occasionally interacting with the breathing?

Awhat?

Sorry.

uruk · 3rd February 2010, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

Awhat?

Sorry.

Sorry, I suck at keeping my "i"-before-"e"s in the correct usage and remembering general spelling rules.

Puppycow · 3rd February 2010, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

The topic is a matter of some controversy. Personally, based on the things he wrote, I think Mr. Lincoln was a believer, or became one while in office.

Reading that, it seems that he was probably somewhat conflicted.
Possibly, perhaps likely, an agnostic in his heart. Possibly a deist. The fact that he did not join any church makes me pretty sure that he at least realized that the various competing dogmas of the organized religious sects were doubtful.

That's all that really matters to me anyway. I have no opinion on the existence of something that might be called a god, just an opinion on the dogmatic and self-serving claims of religions and "scriptures."

MRC_Hans · 3rd February 2010, 08:38 PM

I don't think it makes much sense to try to measure 19th century people's atheism with the modern concept. The whole cultural default position in that era was religion-based, and to actually declare yourself an atheist was a very controversial thing. Most of the people who are 'soft atheists' now would appear to be beilevers, simply because their conviction was not definite enough to merit being controversial. They would go to church, appear to pray, use routine references to god, etc. I suppose the best term for them would be 'doubters', perhaps resorting to Pascal's wager: There is probably no god, but why not play safe?

Hans

Towlie · 3rd February 2010, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

...perhaps resorting to Pascal's wager: There is probably no god, but why not play safe?

Maybe Lincoln was resorting to the Politician's Wager, which employs the same reasoning but has a much more logical and pragmatic basis.

The Norseman · 3rd February 2010, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Ah they will get excommunicated by the Atheist Inquisition.

Nobody expects the Atheist Inquisition!!

</obligatory>

Minarvia · 4th February 2010, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Towlie

Maybe Lincoln was resorting to the Politician's Wager, which employs the same reasoning but has a much more logical and pragmatic basis.

I think so. He was quite aware that someone who did not believe in god would not have a chance of succeeding in obtaining a state position. Probably that is also why he allowed the "god" references to be added to his speeches. Even though he seldom attended church with his wife, at least in his early years, he knew it would be important to at least make an appearance of being devout enough to be elected to political seats later on.

Upchurch · 4th February 2010, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by The Norseman

Nobody expects the Atheist Inquisition!!

I did. Still waiting. Frankly, I'm a little disappointed.

3rd February 2010, 09:03 AM	#1
Cainkane1 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 3,916	Was Abraham Lincoln an atheist? Abraham Lincoln is often listed as an atheist but unless I'm mistaken he had seances at the white house on a regular basis. Was it just him humoring his wife or was he a believer himself?
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

3rd February 2010, 09:09 AM	#3
Sledge Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 2,987	Sorry, I don't see how being an atheist precludes one from believing in ghosts. Could you explain?
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

3rd February 2010, 09:31 AM	#4
Dave Rogers The Unbanned TLA Winner Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Notlob Posts: 9,899	Given that the Christian faith is pretty specific about post-death options for the soul, and haunting isn't one of them, it seems to me that being a Christian precludes one rather more from believing in ghosts. Dave
	__________________ "I guess for Truthers the great thing about Google is that it abolishes context automatically, thus saving your precious reserves of stupid for more important tasks." - Dr. Adequate GENERATION 6: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

3rd February 2010, 09:56 AM	#5
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,688	Originally Posted by Sledge Sorry, I don't see how being an atheist precludes one from believing in ghosts. Could you explain? I think that if you are the type of athiest that does not believe in the existance of a god due to a lack of evidence, you would probably apply that same line of thought to ghosts. But, of course, there are many different types of atheists out there.
	__________________ Alot of great things are based on lies, like religion and American history. Homer Simpson

3rd February 2010, 09:58 AM	#6
Sledge Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 2,987	Even so, what if I've seen something that makes me think there might be something after death? Believing there's no evidence for god/s doesn't mean someone can't think there's evidence of other supernatural possibilities.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

3rd February 2010, 09:06 AM	#2
Minarvia fading orb Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,860	I don't really know. He held the seances to humour his wife, I recall reading. He did read the bible himself on occasion, but I also recall that his Gettysburg Address did not have god references in it when he wrote it but others pressured him to add them. Perhaps he was agnostic? I guess we'll have to wait for the experts on this one.

3rd February 2010, 10:13 AM	#7
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,688	Originally Posted by Sledge Even so, what if I've seen something that makes me think there might be something after death? Believing there's no evidence for god/s doesn't mean someone can't think there's evidence of other supernatural possibilities. I didn't say otherwise. I just said that thinking criticaly about one supernatural subject would probably make you the type of person that would think criticaly about another supernatural subject. Gods and ghosts are two different supernatural subjects.
	__________________ Alot of great things are based on lies, like religion and American history. Homer Simpson Last edited by uruk; 3rd February 2010 at 10:14 AM.

3rd February 2010, 10:30 AM	#8
AvalonXQ Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: America Posts: 3,673	The topic is a matter of some controversy. Personally, based on the things he wrote, I think Mr. Lincoln was a believer, or became one while in office.
	__________________ If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. James 1:26-27

3rd February 2010, 10:48 AM	#9
Cainkane1 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 3,916	Originally Posted by Sledge Sorry, I don't see how being an atheist precludes one from believing in ghosts. Could you explain? Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

3rd February 2010, 11:13 AM	#10
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,688	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers Given that the Christian faith is pretty specific about post-death options for the soul, and haunting isn't one of them, it seems to me that being a Christian precludes one rather more from believing in ghosts. Dave Near as I can tell in a short google search is that christians* do believe in ghosts, but, the ghosts are spiritual agents (demons and angles) and not the spirits of the dearly departed. According to one website ministry, (http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/hauntings.htm) It claims, "if you see the ghost of a dead relative or friend, it is a demon using the image of the dearly departed to fool you into something". I don't know if this is shared by all christian sects. but it seems to fall in line with the christian doctrine. I would assume that the number of christians who believe in ghost might be due to the consequences of buying into the belief of one supernatual idea may make you supceptable to buying into another supernatural belief. Just my opinion. * According to a harris pole 50% of people who claime to be christian believe in ghosts http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us
	__________________ Alot of great things are based on lies, like religion and American history. Homer Simpson Last edited by uruk; 3rd February 2010 at 11:16 AM.

3rd February 2010, 11:32 AM	#11
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 21,223	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural. Ah they will get excommunicated by the Atheist Inquisition.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

3rd February 2010, 11:35 AM	#12
AvalonXQ Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: America Posts: 3,673	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Ah they will get excommunicated by the Atheist Inquisition. Will that prohibit them from attending atheist non-churches, or only partaking in the non-sacraments?
	__________________ If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. James 1:26-27

3rd February 2010, 11:46 AM	#13
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 11,007	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural. SUPPOSED to? Atheists can believe in anything but god(s).
	__________________ TEEK on Merv: He really is cute. Not in a tickle-me-Elmo way, either. Cicero: [Ann Coulter] doesn't require defending. Her education, college appearances, and book sales speak for themselves

3rd February 2010, 11:49 AM	#14
Sledge Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 2,987	Originally Posted by uruk I didn't say otherwise. I just said that thinking criticaly about one supernatural subject would probably make you the type of person that would think criticaly about another supernatural subject. Gods and ghosts are two different supernatural subjects. I'd say that experience on this forum proves otherwise. How often do you see people who critically analyse all sorts of woo, and yet are happy to insist that telepathy/ghosts/perpetual motion machines/whatever are real? The ability to apply critical thinking to one subject does not automatically mean that person will apply it to all subjects. Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural. Wrong. Atheists don't believe in god/s. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

3rd February 2010, 12:18 PM	#15
Achán hiNidráne Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,483	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural. No, atheists aren't supposed to believe in God.
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

3rd February 2010, 12:22 PM	#16
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 30,066	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the supernatural. Not true. I became an atheist long before I gave up woo.

3rd February 2010, 12:59 PM	#17
Minarvia fading orb Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,860	Originally Posted by Sledge Sorry, I don't see how being an atheist precludes one from believing in ghosts. Could you explain? If you are replying to me I never said he couldn't or didn't believe in ghosts. He knew there were quacks out there and didn't trust anyone who stepped forward claiming to have a "gift" of reaching their dead sons. That's what I meant when I said he allowed the seances to humour Mary.

3rd February 2010, 01:31 PM	#18
Sledge Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 2,987	I was replying to the OP. Kinda hoping he'd expand on what he meant, which he has, and it's become clear he's not totally up to speed on what "atheist" means. Now that about six people have explained it, he should be alright.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

3rd February 2010, 04:07 PM	#19
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,688	Originally Posted by Sledge I'd say that experience on this forum proves otherwise. How often do you see people who critically analyse all sorts of woo, and yet are happy to insist that telepathy/ghosts/perpetual motion machines/whatever are real? The ability to apply critical thinking to one subject does not automatically mean that person will apply it to all subjects. I guess we could do a poll to verify, but I think that most athiests in this forum probably do not believe in ghosts either. Supernatural birds of a feather tend to flock together and all that. Any athiests here believe in ghosts as generally defined by the popular media, meaning the spirit or non corporeal form of a departed person still wondering the earth occasionally interacting with the breathing?
	__________________ Alot of great things are based on lies, like religion and American history. Homer Simpson

3rd February 2010, 05:02 PM	#20
devnull Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 1,642	Originally Posted by Tricky Not true. I became an atheist long before I gave up woo. See, if atheist was like theism, the correct response to this would be: "You werent a true atheist"
	__________________ "Woman was created as a helper for man." - David Henson

3rd February 2010, 05:14 PM	#21
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,072	Sounds more like a Spiritualist, which has always been popular. or maybe he was just keeping 'her indoors' sweet?
Hux Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,072	__________________ *...people of faith who are that intelligent they've only managed to fool themselves* - MARDUK

3rd February 2010, 05:20 PM	#22
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 11,007	Originally Posted by uruk I guess we could do a poll to verify, but I think that most athiests in this forum probably do not believe in ghosts either. Supernatural birds of a feather tend to flock together and all that. Any athiests here believe in ghosts as generally defined by the popular media, meaning the spirit or non corporeal form of a departed person still wondering the earth occasionally interacting with the breathing? Awhat? Sorry.
	__________________ TEEK on Merv: He really is cute. Not in a tickle-me-Elmo way, either. Cicero: [Ann Coulter] doesn't require defending. Her education, college appearances, and book sales speak for themselves

3rd February 2010, 07:42 PM	#23
uruk Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 4,688	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 Awhat? Sorry. Sorry, I suck at keeping my "i"-before-"e"s in the correct usage and remembering general spelling rules.
	__________________ Alot of great things are based on lies, like religion and American history. Homer Simpson Last edited by uruk; 3rd February 2010 at 07:45 PM.

3rd February 2010, 07:48 PM	#24
Puppycow Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 7,060	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ The topic is a matter of some controversy. Personally, based on the things he wrote, I think Mr. Lincoln was a believer, or became one while in office. Reading that, it seems that he was probably somewhat conflicted. Possibly, perhaps likely, an agnostic in his heart. Possibly a deist. The fact that he did not join any church makes me pretty sure that he at least realized that the various competing dogmas of the organized religious sects were doubtful. That's all that really matters to me anyway. I have no opinion on the existence of something that might be called a god, just an opinion on the dogmatic and self-serving claims of religions and "scriptures."
	__________________ I can't come to bed yet, honey. Someone on the Internet is wrong. -XKCD Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous

3rd February 2010, 08:38 PM	#25
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: N55.47'36" E12.30'21" Posts: 11,249	I don't think it makes much sense to try to measure 19th century people's atheism with the modern concept. The whole cultural default position in that era was religion-based, and to actually declare yourself an atheist was a very controversial thing. Most of the people who are 'soft atheists' now would appear to be beilevers, simply because their conviction was not definite enough to merit being controversial. They would go to church, appear to pray, use routine references to god, etc. I suppose the best term for them would be 'doubters', perhaps resorting to Pascal's wager: There is probably no god, but why not play safe? Hans
	__________________ The time is always right to do what is right. (Martin Luther King JR.)

3rd February 2010, 09:09 PM	#26
Towlie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 1,101	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans ...perhaps resorting to Pascal's wager: There is probably no god, but why not play safe? Maybe Lincoln was resorting to the Politician's Wager, which employs the same reasoning but has a much more logical and pragmatic basis.

3rd February 2010, 09:22 PM	#27
The Norseman Scholar Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: The Treasure Valley Posts: 99	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Ah they will get excommunicated by the Atheist Inquisition. Nobody expects the Atheist Inquisition!! </obligatory>
	__________________ "I have always thought that a wild animal never looks so well as when some obstacle of pronounced durability is between us."

4th February 2010, 09:10 AM	#28
Minarvia fading orb Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,860	Originally Posted by Towlie Maybe Lincoln was resorting to the Politician's Wager, which employs the same reasoning but has a much more logical and pragmatic basis. I think so. He was quite aware that someone who did not believe in god would not have a chance of succeeding in obtaining a state position. Probably that is also why he allowed the "god" references to be added to his speeches. Even though he seldom attended church with his wife, at least in his early years, he knew it would be important to at least make an appearance of being devout enough to be elected to political seats later on.

4th February 2010, 10:46 AM	#29
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 20,158	Originally Posted by The Norseman Nobody expects the Atheist Inquisition!! I did. Still waiting. Frankly, I'm a little disappointed.