Hitchens attacks Gore Vidal for being a 'crackpot'

Rrose Selavy · 7th February 2010, 09:22 AM

This is less about the facts or conspiracy theories (which wil continue to be debated ad nauseum elsewhere) than one of those almighty academic/journalistic feuds

I'd pull up a seat and open the popcorn but I'm not sure how long Gore Vidal, who has yet to comment, has left....

Quote:

As literary feuds go it has the all the hallmarks of a classic. In one corner, the journalist and polemicist Christopher Hitchens. In the other, America's great man of letters, Gore Vidal.

The latest salvo is in this month's Vanity Fair where, in an article headlined "Vidal Loco", Hitchens launches a stinging attack on Vidal, claiming that the events of 9/11 "accentuated a crackpot strain" in the author. He claims that Vidal's work after the terrorist attacks consists of "a small anthology of half-argued and half-written shock pieces [which] either insinuated or asserted that the administration had known in advance of the attacks."
"He openly says that the Bush administration was 'probably' in on the 9/11 attacks, a criminal complicity that would 'certainly fit them to a T'; that Timothy McVeigh was 'a noble boy', no more murderous than generals Patton and Eisenhower; and that 'Roosevelt saw to it that we got that war' by inciting the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor," Hitchens writes

More here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...t-1891753.html

Hitchens original Vanity Fair article here:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...?currentPage=1

A response to Hitchens here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...o-1891507.html

The True Scotsman · 8th February 2010, 07:54 PM

It sort of sounds like Hitchens mis-interrupted Gore's articles and doesn't want to admit it, because then he would look rather foolish. But, then again, who knows...

And now for a re-enactment of what I think happened...

Pardalis · 8th February 2010, 08:02 PM

Another Hitchens bulleye.

quixotecoyote · 8th February 2010, 08:06 PM

Well he didn't disrupt them from being published, so I suppose in that sense he mis-interrupted them.

portlandatheist · 8th February 2010, 08:23 PM

Vidal is not a conspiracy theorist, however:

Quote:

It is only in this context that Gore describes bin Laden as ‘still not the proven mastermind.’ Hitchens thinks this is self-evidently absurd, but it would seem the FBI agree with Gore, not Hitchens: according to Sonoma State University’s Project Censored, one of the top 25 censored news stories of 2008 was that ‘He [bin Laden] has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.’

Crackpot.

Pardalis · 8th February 2010, 08:24 PM

Ahmed tried to defend Vidal by spouting even more conspiracy babble. Kind of proving Hitchens' point that these two have gone wacko.

There isn't really a "feud", there's Vidal and Ahmed talking to themselves like madmen, and Hitchens justly pointing this out.

The Left has taken upon itself to become the defendor of radical Islam, and Hitchens won't stand for it, and he's right.

quixotecoyote · 8th February 2010, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

The Left has taken upon itself to become the defendor of radical Islam, and Hitchens won't stand for it, and he's right.

Which is fairly bizarre given the left's take on everything else.

Pardalis · 8th February 2010, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Which is fairly bizarre given the left's take on everything else.

As long as it helps their cause to bring down the US and capitalism, they'll get in bed with just about anyone.

quixotecoyote · 8th February 2010, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

As long as it helps their cause to bring down the US and capitalism, they'll get in bed with just about anyone.

I know, just look at Obama and Bill Ayers!

eta: Amiright??

Pardalis · 8th February 2010, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

I know, just look at Obama and Bill Ayers!

eta: Amiright??

Nah, I don't buy into that. I don't place Obama in the "loony Left" camp (when I said the "Left" I meant the "loony Left"), and I don't think you can blame him for acquaintances he's had in college.

There are good people still left on the Left, but it's mostly been hijacked by lunatics.

quixotecoyote · 8th February 2010, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

There are good people still left on the Left, but it's mostly been hijacked by lunatics.

Yeah, ever since the Dems got the majority in the House/Senate plus the presidency, you can tell they've been driven by the extremists because their politicians are enacting wild socialistic anti-capitalist programs willy-nilly instead of getting bogged down in moderate vs left-of-center interparty feuds and forever talking about bipartisanship.

Pardalis · 8th February 2010, 11:27 PM

I wasn't talking about the Democratic party.

quixotecoyote · 8th February 2010, 11:34 PM

So what's got hijacked then? You aren't referring to the whole of the Left or the Democratic party, so who is it? Berkley protesters?

Pardalis · 8th February 2010, 11:36 PM

There's a world outside the United States. When I talk about the Loony Left, I'm talking about the Galloway, Chavez, Pilger, Moore and Chomsky and the likes, not Obama.

Skeptic · 9th February 2010, 12:53 AM

quixotecoyote's self-identification of Pardalis' "the loony left" with Obama reminds me of the old joke about the Jew who was arrested during WWI in Moscow for saying one of the kings in the conflict is an idiot. He said in his trial that he meant the Kaiser, but the judge wasn't buying it: you said "stupid king" -- everybody knows that can only mean the Czar!

MarkCorrigan · 9th February 2010, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

There's a world outside the United States. When I talk about the Loony Left, I'm talking about the Galloway, Chavez, Pilger, Moore and Chomsky and the likes, not Obama.

George Galloway?

You mean George Galloway right?

Hey everyone, he means GEORGE Galloway!

Newsflash, he's a very minor politician and annoying talking head. That's ALL he is here.

Harpo · 9th February 2010, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

George Galloway?

You mean George Galloway right?

Hey everyone, he means GEORGE Galloway!

Newsflash, he's a very minor politician and annoying talking head. That's ALL he is here.

Surely you don't mean George "The Cat" Galloway?

dafydd · 9th February 2010, 04:55 AM

Rrose Selavy · 9th February 2010, 05:01 AM

Grumpy old man on Election night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD0p-wfCARk

-

Eddie Dane · 9th February 2010, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...15b26eeba6.jpg

That picture........wow.

My first reaction? I want to know that man's opinion on world affairs!

Was this his idea of connecting to the public?

dudalb · 9th February 2010, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

George Galloway?

You mean George Galloway right?

Hey everyone, he means GEORGE Galloway!

Newsflash, he's a very minor politician and annoying talking head. That's ALL he is here.

He also furnishes a lot of material for comedians, consdiering the number of Galloway jokes I heard when last in London.

MarkCorrigan · 9th February 2010, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

He also furnishes a lot of material for comedians, consdiering the number of Galloway jokes I heard when last in London.

True. He's a bit of a laughing stock. Bear in mind that in the picture above he was acting like a cat. A cat. This is an elected official.

I have no idea what his reach is abroad, but here, he's a rather bad joke.

Rrose Selavy · 9th February 2010, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

True. He's a bit of a laughing stock. Bear in mind that in the picture above he was acting like a cat. A cat. This is an elected official.

.

No you are incorrect. He was not acting like a cat in the picture .That is not the cat scene. The scene depicted in the leotard was a separate "mime task".
In the cat scene with Rula Lenska he was wearing a white lab coat.

portlandatheist · 9th February 2010, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy

No you are incorrect. He was not acting like a cat in the picture .That is not the cat scene. The scene depicted in the leotard was a separate "mime task".
In the cat scene with Rula Lenska he was wearing a white lab coat.

Thanks for the clarification

quixotecoyote · 9th February 2010, 03:36 PM

Quote:

There's a world outside the United States. When I talk about the Loony Left, I'm talking about the Galloway, Chavez, Pilger, Moore and Chomsky and the likes, not Obama.

Originally Posted by Skeptic

quixotecoyote's self-identification of Pardalis' "the loony left" with Obama reminds me of the old joke about the Jew who was arrested during WWI in Moscow for saying one of the kings in the conflict is an idiot. He said in his trial that he meant the Kaiser, but the judge wasn't buying it: you said "stupid king" -- everybody knows that can only mean the Czar!

Given that the discussion was about Vidal v Hitchens, an American and an English-American who lives in DC, I find pardalis's attempt to deflect outside the US disingenuous and your piling on more so.

There also was no 'self-identification.' Paradalis shifted from Left to Looney Left after I called him on his ********.

Cicero · 9th February 2010, 03:45 PM

Hitch might wish to invoke William F. Buckley's all time classic rebuke of Vidal.

"Now listen you queer, stop calling me a crypto Nazi, or I'll sock you in your god-dammed face and you'll stay plastered." William F. Buckley to Gore Vidal.

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/95207/detail/

Rrose Selavy · 9th February 2010, 03:52 PM

That Buckley's got form.
Here he is threatening to punch Chomsky in the face.
But I'm sure he really wouldn't hit a man with glasses.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEIrZO069Kg

Eddie Dane · 10th February 2010, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy

That Buckley's got form.
Here he is threatening to punch Chomsky in the face.
But I'm sure he really wouldn't hit a man with glasses.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEIrZO069Kg

He didn't threaten him. He made a joke in reference to the Gore Vidal incident.

Cayvmann · 10th February 2010, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

As long as it helps their cause to bring down the US and capitalism, they'll get in bed with just about anyone.

Conspiracy irony right there

Rrose Selavy · 10th February 2010, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

He didn't threaten him. He made a joke in reference to the Gore Vidal incident.

I know. A threat in jest is still a threat.

-

Cicero · 10th February 2010, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy

I know. A threat in jest is still a threat.

-

Would you feel better if it was a promise in jest?

7th February 2010, 09:22 AM	#1
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,929	Hitchens attacks Gore Vidal for being a 'crackpot' This is less about the facts or conspiracy theories (which wil continue to be debated ad nauseum elsewhere) than one of those almighty academic/journalistic feuds I'd pull up a seat and open the popcorn but I'm not sure how long Gore Vidal, who has yet to comment, has left.... Quote: As literary feuds go it has the all the hallmarks of a classic. In one corner, the journalist and polemicist Christopher Hitchens. In the other, America's great man of letters, Gore Vidal. The latest salvo is in this month's Vanity Fair where, in an article headlined "Vidal Loco", Hitchens launches a stinging attack on Vidal, claiming that the events of 9/11 "accentuated a crackpot strain" in the author. He claims that Vidal's work after the terrorist attacks consists of "a small anthology of half-argued and half-written shock pieces [which] either insinuated or asserted that the administration had known in advance of the attacks." "He openly says that the Bush administration was 'probably' in on the 9/11 attacks, a criminal complicity that would 'certainly fit them to a T'; that Timothy McVeigh was 'a noble boy', no more murderous than generals Patton and Eisenhower; and that 'Roosevelt saw to it that we got that war' by inciting the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor," Hitchens writes More here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...t-1891753.html Hitchens original Vanity Fair article here: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...?currentPage=1 A response to Hitchens here: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...o-1891507.html
	Last edited by Rrose Selavy; 7th February 2010 at 09:26 AM.

8th February 2010, 08:06 PM	#4
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Well he didn't disrupt them from being published, so I suppose in that sense he mis-interrupted them.
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

8th February 2010, 08:24 PM	#6
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Ahmed tried to defend Vidal by spouting even more conspiracy babble. Kind of proving Hitchens' point that these two have gone wacko. There isn't really a "feud", there's Vidal and Ahmed talking to themselves like madmen, and Hitchens justly pointing this out. The Left has taken upon itself to become the defendor of radical Islam, and Hitchens won't stand for it, and he's right.
	Last edited by Pardalis; 8th February 2010 at 08:26 PM.

8th February 2010, 08:42 PM	#7
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by Pardalis The Left has taken upon itself to become the defendor of radical Islam, and Hitchens won't stand for it, and he's right. Which is fairly bizarre given the left's take on everything else.
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

8th February 2010, 08:53 PM	#9
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by Pardalis As long as it helps their cause to bring down the US and capitalism, they'll get in bed with just about anyone. I know, just look at Obama and Bill Ayers! eta: Amiright??
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

8th February 2010, 07:54 PM	#2
The True Scotsman Muse Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In Great Birnam Wood, high on Dunsinane Hill Posts: 864	It sort of sounds like Hitchens mis-interrupted Gore's articles and doesn't want to admit it, because then he would look rather foolish. But, then again, who knows... And now for a re-enactment of what I think happened...

8th February 2010, 08:02 PM	#3
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Another Hitchens bulleye.

8th February 2010, 08:23 PM	#5
portlandatheist Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,111	Vidal is not a conspiracy theorist, however: Quote: It is only in this context that Gore describes bin Laden as ‘still not the proven mastermind.’ Hitchens thinks this is self-evidently absurd, but it would seem the FBI agree with Gore, not Hitchens: according to Sonoma State University’s Project Censored, one of the top 25 censored news stories of 2008 was that ‘He [bin Laden] has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.’ Crackpot.

8th February 2010, 08:50 PM	#8
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by quixotecoyote Which is fairly bizarre given the left's take on everything else. As long as it helps their cause to bring down the US and capitalism, they'll get in bed with just about anyone.

8th February 2010, 09:06 PM	#10
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by quixotecoyote I know, just look at Obama and Bill Ayers! eta: Amiright?? Nah, I don't buy into that. I don't place Obama in the "loony Left" camp (when I said the "Left" I meant the "loony Left"), and I don't think you can blame him for acquaintances he's had in college. There are good people still left on the Left, but it's mostly been hijacked by lunatics.
	Last edited by Pardalis; 8th February 2010 at 09:10 PM.

8th February 2010, 11:24 PM	#11
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by Pardalis There are good people still left on the Left, but it's mostly been hijacked by lunatics. Yeah, ever since the Dems got the majority in the House/Senate plus the presidency, you can tell they've been driven by the extremists because their politicians are enacting wild socialistic anti-capitalist programs willy-nilly instead of getting bogged down in moderate vs left-of-center interparty feuds and forever talking about bipartisanship.
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

8th February 2010, 11:27 PM	#12
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	I wasn't talking about the Democratic party.

8th February 2010, 11:34 PM	#13
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	So what's got hijacked then? You aren't referring to the whole of the Left or the Democratic party, so who is it? Berkley protesters?
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

8th February 2010, 11:36 PM	#14
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	There's a world outside the United States. When I talk about the Loony Left, I'm talking about the Galloway, Chavez, Pilger, Moore and Chomsky and the likes, not Obama.

9th February 2010, 12:53 AM	#15
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	quixotecoyote's self-identification of Pardalis' "the loony left" with Obama reminds me of the old joke about the Jew who was arrested during WWI in Moscow for saying one of the kings in the conflict is an idiot. He said in his trial that he meant the Kaiser, but the judge wasn't buying it: you said "stupid king" -- everybody knows that can only mean the Czar!

9th February 2010, 01:31 AM	#16
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middle of nowhere, UK. Posts: 7,119	Originally Posted by Pardalis There's a world outside the United States. When I talk about the Loony Left, I'm talking about the Galloway, Chavez, Pilger, Moore and Chomsky and the likes, not Obama. George Galloway? You mean George Galloway right? Hey everyone, he means GEORGE Galloway! Newsflash, he's a very minor politician and annoying talking head. That's ALL he is here.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet. If I should die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.

9th February 2010, 01:55 AM	#17
Harpo Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: England's Green & Pleasant Land Posts: 881	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan George Galloway? You mean George Galloway right? Hey everyone, he means GEORGE Galloway! Newsflash, he's a very minor politician and annoying talking head. That's ALL he is here. Surely you don't mean George "The Cat" Galloway?

9th February 2010, 04:55 AM	#18
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480

9th February 2010, 05:01 AM	#19
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,929	Grumpy old man on Election night http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD0p-wfCARk -

9th February 2010, 07:12 AM	#20
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,424	Originally Posted by dafydd http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...15b26eeba6.jpg That picture........wow. My first reaction? I want to know that man's opinion on world affairs! Was this his idea of connecting to the public?

9th February 2010, 11:13 AM	#21
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,836	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan George Galloway? You mean George Galloway right? Hey everyone, he means GEORGE Galloway! Newsflash, he's a very minor politician and annoying talking head. That's ALL he is here. He also furnishes a lot of material for comedians, consdiering the number of Galloway jokes I heard when last in London.

9th February 2010, 03:01 PM	#22
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middle of nowhere, UK. Posts: 7,119	Originally Posted by dudalb He also furnishes a lot of material for comedians, consdiering the number of Galloway jokes I heard when last in London. True. He's a bit of a laughing stock. Bear in mind that in the picture above he was acting like a cat. A cat. This is an elected official. I have no idea what his reach is abroad, but here, he's a rather bad joke.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet. If I should die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.

9th February 2010, 03:08 PM	#23
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,929	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan True. He's a bit of a laughing stock. Bear in mind that in the picture above he was acting like a cat. A cat. This is an elected official. . No you are incorrect. He was not acting like a cat in the picture .That is not the cat scene. The scene depicted in the leotard was a separate "mime task". In the cat scene with Rula Lenska he was wearing a white lab coat.

9th February 2010, 03:15 PM	#24
portlandatheist Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,111	Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy No you are incorrect. He was not acting like a cat in the picture .That is not the cat scene. The scene depicted in the leotard was a separate "mime task". In the cat scene with Rula Lenska he was wearing a white lab coat. Thanks for the clarification

9th February 2010, 03:36 PM	#25
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Quote: There's a world outside the United States. When I talk about the Loony Left, I'm talking about the Galloway, Chavez, Pilger, Moore and Chomsky and the likes, not Obama. Originally Posted by Skeptic quixotecoyote's self-identification of Pardalis' "the loony left" with Obama reminds me of the old joke about the Jew who was arrested during WWI in Moscow for saying one of the kings in the conflict is an idiot. He said in his trial that he meant the Kaiser, but the judge wasn't buying it: you said "stupid king" -- everybody knows that can only mean the Czar! Given that the discussion was about Vidal v Hitchens, an American and an English-American who lives in DC, I find pardalis's attempt to deflect outside the US disingenuous and your piling on more so. There also was no 'self-identification.' Paradalis shifted from Left to Looney Left after I called him on his ********.
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

9th February 2010, 03:45 PM	#26
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Hitch might wish to invoke William F. Buckley's all time classic rebuke of Vidal. "Now listen you queer, stop calling me a crypto Nazi, or I'll sock you in your god-dammed face and you'll stay plastered." William F. Buckley to Gore Vidal. http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/95207/detail/
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

9th February 2010, 03:52 PM	#27
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,929	That Buckley's got form. Here he is threatening to punch Chomsky in the face. But I'm sure he really wouldn't hit a man with glasses..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEIrZO069Kg

10th February 2010, 03:31 AM	#28
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,424	Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy That Buckley's got form. Here he is threatening to punch Chomsky in the face. But I'm sure he really wouldn't hit a man with glasses..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEIrZO069Kg He didn't threaten him. He made a joke in reference to the Gore Vidal incident.

10th February 2010, 04:56 AM	#29
Cayvmann Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 578	Originally Posted by Pardalis As long as it helps their cause to bring down the US and capitalism, they'll get in bed with just about anyone. Conspiracy irony right there
Cayvmann Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 578

10th February 2010, 05:26 AM	#30
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,929	Originally Posted by Eddie Dane He didn't threaten him. He made a joke in reference to the Gore Vidal incident. I know. A threat in jest is still a threat. -

10th February 2010, 07:29 AM	#31
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy I know. A threat in jest is still a threat. - Would you feel better if it was a promise in jest?
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861