Iran crackin' down...

ZARDOZ · 9th February 2010, 08:46 AM

Quote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8504541.stm

An Iranian opposition leader has been jailed for six years for his role in the unrest following June's disputed presidential election, reports say. Mohsen Aminzadeh was convicted of organising protests, disturbing security and spreading propaganda against the system, his lawyer said. He was a prominent supporter of the defeated candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi.

Six years for opposing Ahmadinejad... goodness, sounds like Nazi Germany during Hitler's reign. In another thread I commented that I work with a guy from Iran who is visiting on a work visa. His wife is a semi-famous musician with the Tehran Symphony Orchestra. They have had friends who support Mousavi taken in for questioning, his wife, and other friends, have been beaten by police at Green protests, other people they know - who have been very vocal - have had their flats ransacked by the police. His wife keeps him updated via Skype almost daily.

With all that said BBC has a "Have your Say" section and the question is "How should the world react to Iran’s nuclear regime?" And the top 5 reader's-recommended replies are all pointing fingers at the USA and Israel:

Quote:

"So it's alright for Israel to have nuclear weapons.." "It's hypocrite nations like Israel and USA.." "Obviously behind it are Israel and warmonger-circles in the US..." "Israel is the biggest troublemaker in middle east and gets away with everything it does...." "n the same way the world reacted to the Israelis nuclear regime...."

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thre...736&#paginator

Which leads me to the question, since these "Have Your Say" reader's-recommended replies are mainly by Europeans, are many Europeans really blind about the dangers a nuclear-armed Iran poses?

(Now before the strawman is created for me that I said "all europeans are blind about the threat Iran poses" is run up the flagpole I just want to say on record I never said that...nor do I believe it.)

Thunder · 9th February 2010, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by ZARDOZ

Six years for opposing Ahmadinejad... goodness, sounds like Nazi Germany during Hitler's reign.

no...Hitler sent you to the gas chambers for opposing him.

Thunder · 9th February 2010, 09:06 AM

While Iran is indeed wrong to jail people for opposing beliefs, they are in no way acting like the Nazis.

we don't have to make false accusations of Iran being equal to Nazi Germany, in order to try to force them to stop nuclear enrichment.

Pardalis · 9th February 2010, 09:10 AM

Iran executes protesters.

Quote:

With the government’s opponents planning another large demonstration on Feb. 11, the country is bracing for another wave of executions. At least nine other prisoners have been charged with the capital crime of moharebeh, which means waging war against God.[...]
On Saturday, the authorities held a trial for 16 protesters who were arrested in mass demonstrations on Dec. 27, the Shiite holy day of Ashura, during which at least eight protesters were killed. The prosecutor asked for the death sentence for five of them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/wo...st/02iran.html

http://www.truthout.org/government-e...ters-iran56545

Quote:

Iran hanged two opposition protesters on Thursday and sentenced nine more to death for taking part in widespread rallies against President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad following last June's presidential election.[...]In a speech just before the reopening of universities last August, the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei called university professors "key elements in creating a velvet revolution in the country" and asked that all universities be "purified" of those who contributed to unrest. According to sources inside the country, this was reason enough for a wave of forced retirements and firings by universities. Law, social and political studies were the departments first targeted, but it later crept into other fields such as economics.

funk de fino · 9th February 2010, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by ZARDOZ

With all that said BBC has a "Have your Say" section and the question is "How should the world react to Iran’s nuclear regime?" And the top 5 reader's-recommended replies are all pointing fingers at the USA and Israel:
Which leads me to the question, since these "Have Your Say" reader's-recommended replies are mainly by Europeans, are many Europeans really blind about the dangers a nuclear-armed Iran poses?

And a good few are Canadian. Are many Canadians really blind to............

The Atheist · 9th February 2010, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by ZARDOZ

Which leads me to the question, since these "Have Your Say" reader's-recommended replies are mainly by Europeans, are many Europeans really blind about the dangers a nuclear-armed Iran poses?

No, I think it's more a case of seeing that Iran is right to feel threatened, and since they feel threatened by Israel and USA, an attack on Europe is not very likely.

There's also the excellent point that if Israel and USA didn't wave nuclear weapons in Iran's face all the time, their desire for owning nukes might be considerably less.

The final lesson should indeed be Iran's though. Instead of worrying about jailing or executing opposition, just act like Dubbya - ignore the election result and steal the country anyway.

Which possibly also accounts for European attitudes of looking at the whole US/Israel/Iran business and realising that there are several pots and kettles in the mix.

What should those Euros think?

ZARDOZ · 9th February 2010, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by funk de fino

And a good few are Canadian. Are many Canadians really blind to............

Since I am a Canuk I can tell you that 99.99% of my fellow Canadians I have had a conversation with regarding the Iranian regime are very concerned about Iran. The combination of the Iranian Mullahs cracking down on every-day folk who oppose Ahmadinejad, the Iranian support for Hamas and Hezbollah, and that Ahmadinejad is truly a nutcase is cause for serious concern. Add nuclear weapons to that mix and frankly you could have a serious issue with terror groups getting a dirty bomb or Iran attacking Sunni countries they don't particularly like. (We already know what Ahmadinejad wants to do with Israel..)

So my question - using the BBC "Have Your Say" top-recommended posts as a barometer - is still a valid question. Why are the top recommended posts there by Europeans dismissive of Iran's potential threat? Is that the tone in Europe?

ETA

Originally Posted by The Atheist

What should those Euros think?

I am not the judge of what Europeans should think. I am just wondering what they think. For instance in a few years Iran will have a missile that could reach most European capitals. Iran has also threatened to strike "British and American targets":

Quote:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle706132.ece

IRAN has formed battalions of suicide bombers to strike at British and American targets if the nation’s nuclear sites are attacked. According to Iranian officials, 40,000 trained suicide bombers are ready for action. The main force, named the Special Unit of Martyr Seekers in the Revolutionary Guards, was first seen last month when members marched in a military parade, dressed in olive-green uniforms with explosive packs around their waists and detonators held high.

Quote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...67_page6.shtml

"Last one," Wallace said. "You have a special unit of martyr seekers in your revolutionary guard. They claim they have 52,000 trained suicide bombers ready to attack American and British targets if America should attack Iran."

"So, are you expecting the Americans to threaten us and we sit idly by and watch them with our hands … tied?" Ahmadinejad said.

That's not a denial by Ahmadinejad that trained suicide bombers are ready to go.

WildCat · 9th February 2010, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

No, I think it's more a case of seeing that Iran is right to feel threatened, and since they feel threatened by Israel and USA, an attack on Europe is not very likely.

Why would Iran feel threatened by Israel? Why is Iran sending arms to Hamas and Hezbollah to wage war on Israel? Why is Iran training Hamas and Hezbollah fighters to fight Israel?

Quote:

There's also the excellent point that if Israel and USA didn't wave nuclear weapons in Iran's face all the time, their desire for owning nukes might be considerably less.

Nobody has waved nuclear weapons in Iran's face. Iran is ostracized because they are a state that supports terrorism. The USA wouldn't even care about Iran if they didn't support terrorism.

Quote:

The final lesson should indeed be Iran's though. Instead of worrying about jailing or executing opposition, just act like Dubbya - ignore the election result and steal the country anyway.

Your ignorance of the 2000 election is stunning. Feel free to bump an existing thread on it if you want to prove to the JREF once again how little you know about... well, anything.

ZARDOZ · 9th February 2010, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Nobody has waved nuclear weapons in Iran's face. Iran is ostracized because they are a state that supports terrorism. The USA wouldn't even care about Iran if they didn't support terrorism.

Nor do people in the US or Israel chant "Death to ________________" at every turn. Look at the news today.

Quote:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1148593.html

About 100 Iranians protested Tuesday in front of the Italian embassy in Tehran, shouting Death to Italy, Death to Berlusconi, Italy's foreign minister said.

Protests were also held outside the French and Dutch embassies.

Quote:

http://www.france24.com/en/20100209-...ran-berlusconi

Around 100 pro-government militia members tried to storm Italy's embassy in Tehran on Tuesday, Italy's foreign minister has said. Italy has cancelled its attendance at Thursday's ceremonies in Tehran marking the anniversary of the Iranian Revolution.

Those ain't American and Israeli embassies these pro-government militia members are trying to storm. And that is why European ambivalence confuses me - if I use the BBC "Have Your Say" top-recommended posts as a barometer.

ETA

These Iranian militia members are VERY serious about these public "death to _________________" statements.

The Atheist · 9th February 2010, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Why would Iran feel threatened by Israel?

Oh, I don;t know. Maybe the history of an over-armed country with a history of attacking countries in the vicinity while practicing apartheid within its borders.

Something along those lines.

Originally Posted by WildCat

Why is Iran sending arms to Hamas and Hezbollah to wage war on Israel? Why is Iran training Hamas and Hezbollah fighters to fight Israel?

See above.

Originally Posted by WildCat

Nobody has waved nuclear weapons in Iran's face. Iran is ostracized because they are a state that supports terrorism. The USA wouldn't even care about Iran if they didn't support terrorism.

My word, they certainly hooked you in the school of polidiocy didn't they? Polidiocy is like theodicy, but done in political questions.

Shall we now discuss Iraq's weapons of mass destruction?

Originally Posted by WildCat

Your ignorance of the 2000 election is stunning. Feel free to bump an existing thread on it if you want to prove to the JREF once again how little you know about... well, anything.

Oh, so Bush won the election fair & square?

You seem like such a reliable source, too.

dudalb · 9th February 2010, 11:03 AM

There is nothing the Iranian Government will not do that The Athiest will not justify or explain away, apparently.

Quote:

Oh, I don;t know. Maybe the history of an over-armed country with a history of attacking countries in the vicinity while practicing apartheid within its borders.

Interesting that the Athiest justify Iran's action by saying they are threatned by their neighbors, but does not allow Israel the same justification.
The way he is going his next act will be justifying the 9/11 Attacks.

Pardalis · 9th February 2010, 11:05 AM

Odd that an atheist would jump to the defense of a totalitarian Islamic regime.

Darat · 9th February 2010, 11:06 AM

I would suggest that using "Have your say" as a barometer of anything but levels of spittle is likely to lead you astray: http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/

applecorped · 9th February 2010, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I would suggest that using "Have your say" as a barometer of anything but levels of spittle is likely to lead you astray: http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/

From the link:

"Try and forget that you’ve pissed a substantial portion of your life away patiently shoveling lorry-loads of arseblubber into the internet."

Words to live by people.

ddt · 9th February 2010, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by ZARDOZ

Six years for opposing Ahmadinejad... goodness, sounds like Nazi Germany during Hitler's reign.

<snip>

With all that said BBC has a "Have your Say" section and the question is "How should the world react to Iran’s nuclear regime?" And the top 5 reader's-recommended replies are all pointing fingers at the USA and Israel:

Can you spot the strawman you erected? You're trying to tie Iran's internal policy with its foreign policy, and you use Nazi Germany to justify that. Are you as concerned with China having nukes, or the Soviet Union? Those countries are/were comparably harsh on their citizens. That doesn't say a thing about their foreign policies.

And while Ahmadinejad gives vile hate speech, I don't think he's a nutcase, and I don't think the Iranian regime as a whole is foolish enough to start dangerous adventures. Moreover, they're old enough to remember the horrific Iran-Iraq war.

As to the fingerpointing to the US and Israel: don't you think Iran is more than a bit nervous with US troops on its western and its eastern borders - and Dubya calling it for eight years part of the "Axis of Evil", and openly musing about an invasion? Likewise, in Israel the discourse is more "when do we attack Iran" then "should we attack Iran". And there's precedent too - Osirak.

Really, when it comes to nukes I'm more worried about the Pakistani ones. Who knows who rules there tomorrow...

ponderingturtle · 9th February 2010, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

no...Hitler sent you to the gas chambers for opposing him.

I just thought he had them killed in more traditional manners. At least for high level opposition like this.

WildCat · 9th February 2010, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Oh, I don;t know. Maybe the history of an over-armed country with a history of attacking countries in the vicinity while practicing apartheid within its borders.

Disregarding for the moment your curious claim that fighting invaders constitutes "attacking countries in the vicinity", you may want to check your map. Iran is not "in the vicinity" of Iran by most non-astronomical uses of the term. And I'm sure you feel they're over armed, since they have been able to fend off 4 invasion attempts. Must really gnaw at you that Israel still exists, doesn't it?

Israel has never attacked Iran, yet Iran has been financing, training, and arming insurrections against Israel for 30 years. And according to you Israel is the aggressor?

Quote:

Something along those lines.

So it's all based on your personal delusions?

Quote:

See above.

So it really is all about your personal delusions brought about through your stunning ignorance of history??

Quote:

My word, they certainly hooked you in the school of polidiocy didn't they? Polidiocy is like theodicy, but done in political questions.

No, I didn't go to your school. I could never hope to match your political idiocy, I admit you are the master of that.

Quote:

Oh, so Bush won the election fair & square?

You seem like such a reliable source, too.

I'm not the source.

Now, I certainly don't expect you to stop digging this hole for yourself. I eagerly await your next post to see just how anxious you are demonstrate to the whole forum your dizzying display of pretend intellect.

Cleon · 9th February 2010, 11:51 AM

ZARDOZ · 9th February 2010, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by ddt

Can you spot the strawman you erected? You're trying to tie Iran's internal policy with its foreign policy, and you use Nazi Germany to justify that.

Sorry but I did not use Nazi Germany to justify anything. I said it sounds like Nazi Germany.. how the Iranian regime is throwing opposition leaders into jail. Please stop with the strawmen which you are clearly trying to create with a blatant false claim.

Originally Posted by ddt

Are you as concerned with China having nukes, or the Soviet Union? Those countries are/were comparably harsh on their citizens. That doesn't say a thing about their foreign policies.

Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah openly. They support insurgents in Iraq. That's Iran's foreign policy... using proxies. You can't sweep that under the rug ddt.

Originally Posted by Darat

I would suggest that using "Have your say" as a barometer of anything but levels of spittle is likely to lead you astray: http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/

I agree that the BBC's "Have Your Say" is a bunch of random people posting. But aside from the randomness these posts, what I find disturbing is that the most recommended posts on "Have Your Say" seem to be penned by Europeans. And that these most-recommended posts seem to follow a general anti-Israel, anti-USA theme. Do these man-on-the-street European posters have amnesia? Don't they remember what happened 60 years ago when Europe ignored another "guy" who openly telegraphed his future intentions?

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Oh, I don;t know. Maybe the history of an over-armed country with a history of attacking countries in the vicinity while practicing apartheid within its borders.

Damn if that ain't spin I dunno what is. Hahahahahaha! Thanks for the belly laugh The Atheist.

Darat · 9th February 2010, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by ZARDOZ

...snip...

I agree that the BBC's "Have Your Say" is a bunch of random people posting. But aside from the randomness these posts, what I find disturbing is that the most recommended posts on "Have Your Say" seem to be penned by Europeans. And that these most-recommended posts seem to follow a general anti-Israel, anti-USA theme.

...snip...

And all I can reply with is "and?". So some random folks post some things and from that you want to draw such conclusions, invoking stuff like pre-WWII? It seems a rather large leap to me.

ZARDOZ · 9th February 2010, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

And all I can reply with is "and?". So some random folks post some things and from that you want to draw such conclusions, invoking stuff like pre-WWII? It seems a rather large leap to me.

I don't want to draw conclusions from the top-recommended "Have Your Say" posts. That is why I started this thread. I am asking other Europeans from JREF what I wrote in my original post:

Quote:

"...are many Europeans really blind about the dangers a nuclear-armed Iran?"

I ask this question because I want to hear from Europeans what their experience is... so that I DO NOT draw incorrect conclusions.

Darat · 9th February 2010, 12:32 PM

You are still going to get a very, very small sample that I would suggest is not representative of any "European view"; especially since this is an English language forum so the vast majority of Europeans will be excluded from even participating. Remember there are over 40 different countries that are included in the term "European", with a combined population well in excess of 400 million.

Darat · 9th February 2010, 12:37 PM

If you want my view (as me not as a "European") internally Iran is very unstable and the current regime is desperately trying to cling onto power. And given the anniversary that is about due they are trying to dissuade the population from any further anti-state protests because they fear they could snowball into another revolution.

Thunder · 9th February 2010, 12:40 PM

I think two things here:

1. Iran is most likely gonna "surprise" us by stating in a year or two that:

"we originally planned on having a only peaceful nuclear program, but now that the West and Israel is up our butts, we have no choice but to develop nuclear weapons to defend ourselves."

2. I think Israelis and some right-wing Jews are determined, at all costs, using any means necessary, to convince Europeans and Americans that "our enemy is your enemy", even though most Europeans and many Americans simply don't buy it.

Clearly, many Israelis and right-wing Jews feel that others are not sufficiently on their side against Iran. But its not OUR fault that Iran hates Israel. Nor should it be our burden to handle. If Israel wants to bomb the **** out of Iran, by all means.....go ahead. But just be sure to have the evidence to justify it, after the smoke and radiation clears.

ZARDOZ · 9th February 2010, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

And given the anniversary that is about due they are trying to dissuade the population from any further anti-state protests because they fear they could snowball into another revolution.

The Iranian I work with - (see my first post) - tells me that many average Iranians oppose the government these days. He says that the beatings, arrests and executions have polarized the intellectuals and young people. He says that additionally Ahmadinejad's regime never lived up to their internal economic promises either.. and that his poor performance on the international stage has hurt Iran economically - (which hurts Iranians economically.) And let's not forget the missing 35 billion in oil revenues...

Quote:

http://www.meepas.com/Iran_Biggest_corruption_case.htm

In what appears to be the biggest case of corruption in post revolution Iran, and perhaps in the Middle East, the Tehran-based Shahab News reported that the chief auditing office of the Iranian parliament (Majlis) has revealed that close to $35 billion of oil income from the financial year 2006-07 is missing.

But my co-worker also cautions that there is a group of scary jihad-driven folks in Iran too.. That's the people that scare the heck out of me.. the ones attacking the Italian, French and Dutch embassies in Iran as I type this post.

ZARDOZ · 9th February 2010, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

Godwinning. Either denies the barbarity of the Nazis, or highly exaggerates the misdeeds of one's target.

I'm gonna say this once an once only.

The Iranian regime is jailing opposition members just like Hitler jailed people who opposed him. The Nazis eliminated opposition through a process known as Gleichschaltung - "bringing into line." The Iranian regime is eliminating opposition by similar processes... beatings, jailing, and executions.

I don't think I am off base in any way by comparing the two.

Darat · 9th February 2010, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by ZARDOZ

I'm gonna say this once an once only.

The Iranian regime is jailing opposition members just like Hitler jailed people who opposed him. The Nazis eliminated opposition through a process known as Gleichschaltung - "bringing into line." The Iranian regime is eliminating opposition by similar processes... beatings, jailing, and executions.

I don't think I am off base in any way by comparing the two.

I understand your point and I don't particularly disagree with the points of comparison you are making but using the Nazis as an example to compare against does tend to drag in a huge amount of additional baggage that often deflects from the point you wanted to make by using the comparison. As you can see happening in the thread right now.

I would suggest that folk forget about the Nazi comparison point and actually discuss the brutality the state is using against its own citizens as well as the other points the opening post made.

Thunder · 9th February 2010, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

I would suggest that folk forget about the Nazi comparison point and actually discuss the brutality the state is using against its own citizens as well as the other points the opening post made.

I wish, just once, someone would say:

"these guys are sooo bad!! they remind me of the KGB and the Soviets!!"

Cleon · 9th February 2010, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

I wish, just once, someone would say:

"these guys are sooo bad!! they remind me of the KGB and the Soviets!!"

Have you not been paying attention to the teabaggers?

ddt · 9th February 2010, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by ZARDOZ

Sorry but I did not use Nazi Germany to justify anything. I said it sounds like Nazi Germany.. how the Iranian regime is throwing opposition leaders into jail. Please stop with the strawmen which you are clearly trying to create with a blatant false claim.

I'm merely trying to find an explanation for your jump from internal politics to foreign politics.

Originally Posted by ZARDOZ

I'm gonna say this once an once only.

The Iranian regime is jailing opposition members just like Hitler jailed people who opposed him. The Nazis eliminated opposition through a process known as Gleichschaltung - "bringing into line." The Iranian regime is eliminating opposition by similar processes... beatings, jailing, and executions.

I don't think I am off base in any way by comparing the two.

Yes you are. Though the above analogies are fine, the Nazis are also and more famously known for starting World War 2 and the Holocaust. Why didn't you choose any of those regimes Darth listed?

Originally Posted by ZARDOZ

Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah openly. They support insurgents in Iraq. That's Iran's foreign policy... using proxies. You can't sweep that under the rug ddt.

Sorry, you don't get off that easily. First explain your jump from internal politics to foreign politics. Why would a regime that's brutal to its own citizens be necessarily a threat in world politics? You introduced the connection in the OP, so first explain that one before introducing other factors.

The Atheist · 9th February 2010, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

There is nothing the Iranian Government will not do that The Athiest will not justify or explain away, apparently.

Not even close.

I don't support the regime at all.

On the other hand, I didn't support the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan either.

Let's look back to the deposing of the Shah. In the meantime, how many middle eastern countries has Iran attacked and how many USA/Israel?

Originally Posted by dudalb

Interesting that the Athiest justify Iran's action by saying they are threatned by their neighbors, but does not allow Israel the same justification.
The way he is going his next act will be justifying the 9/11 Attacks.

Shouldn't think so. I'll build my own strawmen if that's ok with you.

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Odd that an atheist would jump to the defense of a totalitarian Islamic regime.

Only as odd as those that defend a miltaristic policy of invasion of sovereign states by a country which is on a different continent.

Originally Posted by WildCat

Disregarding for the moment your curious claim that fighting invaders constitutes "attacking countries in the vicinity", you may want to check your map. Iran is not "in the vicinity" of Iran by most non-astronomical uses of the term. And I'm sure you feel they're over armed, since they have been able to fend off 4 invasion attempts. Must really gnaw at you that Israel still exists, doesn't it?

Nah. I'd vote for Israel's continued existence anytime.

It's their policies of apartheid within and threats (and attacks) against other countries which bother me.

Just curious, how many times has Israel threatened to attack Iran's alleged nuclear facilities?

Originally Posted by WildCat

Israel has never attacked Iran, yet Iran has been financing, training, and arming insurrections against Israel for 30 years. And according to you Israel is the aggressor?

See above.

Not to mention that since Israel keeps attacking allies of Iran, the irony of you supporting USA doing exactly the same thing is rich indeed.

Originally Posted by WildCat

Now, I certainly don't expect you to stop digging this hole for yourself. I eagerly await your next post to see just how anxious you are demonstrate to the whole forum your dizzying display of pretend intellect.

No need, really. The absurd replies coming from you are self-evident that you're just a hawk in cat's clothing. You have been defending the indefensible as long as I've seen you post and your feeble resorts to abuse say it all in terms of actually making a case - you don't have one.

See; look at your very first paragraph above - you automatically and incorrectly assume that I'm antisemitic. You have no idea at all outside of the propaganda you've been spoon fed.

portlandatheist · 9th February 2010, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Instead of worrying about jailing or executing opposition, just act like Dubbya - ignore the election result and steal the country anyway.

Conspiracy Theory Forum is that way ---------------->

WildCat · 9th February 2010, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

See above.

Not to mention that since Israel keeps attacking allies of Iran, the irony of you supporting USA doing exactly the same thing is rich indeed.

Israel actually had good relations with Iran until the revolution. Then Iran immediately started fighting Israel by proxy. Israel has never attacked Iran, Iran has been attacking Israel for 30 years.

Iran is the aggressor, deal with it.

Quote:

No need, really. The absurd replies coming from you are self-evident that you're just a hawk in cat's clothing. You have been defending the indefensible as long as I've seen you post and your feeble resorts to abuse say it all in terms of actually making a case - you don't have one.

See; look at your very first paragraph above - you automatically and incorrectly assume that I'm antisemitic. You have no idea at all outside of the propaganda you've been spoon fed.

Actually I correctly assumed you have no clue as to the history of Israel and Iran and are ascribing 30 years of Iranian aggression towards Israel to Israeli concerns about Iran's nuclear program over the last 10 years or so. Pretzel logic.

You are siding with a theocratic regime which supports terrorism, hangs homosexuals, hangs and jails political protestors, kidnaps foreigners for propaganda purposes, and has attacked Israel for 30 years through proxies such as Hamas and Hezbollah. You then fault Israel for threatening a strike on Iranian facilities they suspect of manufacturing nuclear weapons?

Iran actually attacks Israel for 30 years: The Atheist says they're the good guys.

Israel finally responds with words: The Atheist condemns them and says they deserve everything they get.

That's some rational thinking there The Atheist.

Sword_Of_Truth · 9th February 2010, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

I honestly consider Godwining to be a form of Holocaust-denial,

Parky, you might wanna put that thing away before you hurt yourself.

Skeptic · 9th February 2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

I honestly consider Godwining to be a form of Holocaust-denial

I honestly consider a raven to be similar to a writing desk.

Cuddles · 10th February 2010, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

I honestly consider Godwining to be a form of Holocaust-denial, because for the most part, behavior that in no way compares to the Holocaust, and folks who in no way compare to Hitler...are indeed likened to Hitler and the Holocaust.

That's exactly the kind of thing Hitler would have said.

Thunder · 10th February 2010, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Parky, you might wanna put that thing away before you hurt yourself.

don't you have some research to do?

Thunder · 10th February 2010, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Israel actually had good relations with Iran until the revolution.

forgive me, but don't you mean:

"Israel actually had good relations with the Iranian semi-dictatorship before the revolution."?

ZARDOZ · 10th February 2010, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

I'm merely trying to find an explanation for your jump from internal politics to foreign politics.

The combination of the funding of terrorism, and oppression of it's own people, makes Iran a potential threat. Once they get "the bomb" do you think Iran's current draconian regime would suddenly become the Mary Poppins of the Middle East?

Or would a nuclear-armed Iran run by a draconian regime be a clear and present danger to stability in the region?

Originally Posted by ddt

Why didn't you choose any of those regimes Darth listed?

Because I didn't realize that I needed to use Darth Rotor-approved list for my analogies while posting on JREF. Perhaps you or Darth Rotor could post a Darth Rotor-approved list of analogies acceptable for use on JREF and I shall review it. Meanwhile I used the analogy I used because of the answer I already gave - Gleichschaltung. It was the first thing that came into my head. Frankly I didn't write a PHD thesis on the similarities between Iran and Nazis so try to let go.

Originally Posted by The Fool

sorry, but on that topic its not possible to be "proven 100% wrong". You have my "benefit of the doubt" for the moment, lets see how you go....

Gee thanks. I am not 100% sure you're not something too. You have my "benefit of the doubt" for the moment as well, lets see how you go....

Quote:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...OT6-wD9DOTHN01

Iran has convicted another opposition activist on charges related to the country's post-election turmoil and sentenced him to death, the judiciary said Tuesday, bringing to at least 10 the number of those facing the death penalty for the unrest following June's disputed presidential election.

The Web site of the Iranian judiciary said the opposition activist sentenced to death was convicted of Moharebeh, or defiance of God. The report also said that eight more people were sentenced to unspecified prison terms.

Wow... that sounds like:

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Pinochet.
Idi Amin
Kim Jong Il/Il Sung
Franco
Various of the Sauds
Various General Secretaries of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union

DR

p.s. Don't mention "the war"

WildCat · 10th February 2010, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

forgive me, but don't you mean:

"Israel actually had good relations with the Iranian semi-dictatorship before the revolution."?

How is that relevant? For the last 40 years every US president has tried to get better relations between Israel and the dictatorships of Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia et al. Even succeeded in Egypt's case.

Are these efforts wrong parky? Are you opposed to the middle east peace process?

9th February 2010, 08:46 AM	#1
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117	Iran crackin' down... Quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8504541.stm An Iranian opposition leader has been jailed for six years for his role in the unrest following June's disputed presidential election, reports say. Mohsen Aminzadeh was convicted of organising protests, disturbing security and spreading propaganda against the system, his lawyer said. He was a prominent supporter of the defeated candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi. Six years for opposing Ahmadinejad... goodness, sounds like Nazi Germany during Hitler's reign. In another thread I commented that I work with a guy from Iran who is visiting on a work visa. His wife is a semi-famous musician with the Tehran Symphony Orchestra. They have had friends who support Mousavi taken in for questioning, his wife, and other friends, have been beaten by police at Green protests, other people they know - who have been very vocal - have had their flats ransacked by the police. His wife keeps him updated via Skype almost daily. With all that said BBC has a "Have your Say" section and the question is "How should the world react to Iran’s nuclear regime?" And the top 5 reader's-recommended replies are all pointing fingers at the USA and Israel: Quote: "So it's alright for Israel to have nuclear weapons.." "It's hypocrite nations like Israel and USA.." "Obviously behind it are Israel and warmonger-circles in the US..." "Israel is the biggest troublemaker in middle east and gets away with everything it does...." "n the same way the world reacted to the Israelis nuclear regime...." http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thre...736&#paginator Which leads me to the question, since these "Have Your Say" reader's-recommended replies are mainly by Europeans, are many Europeans really blind about the dangers a nuclear-armed Iran poses? (Now before the strawman is created for me that I said "all europeans are blind about the threat Iran poses" is run up the flagpole I just want to say on record I never said that...nor do I believe it.)
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117

9th February 2010, 09:10 AM	#4
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Iran executes protesters. Quote: With the government’s opponents planning another large demonstration on Feb. 11, the country is bracing for another wave of executions. At least nine other prisoners have been charged with the capital crime of moharebeh, which means waging war against God.[...] On Saturday, the authorities held a trial for 16 protesters who were arrested in mass demonstrations on Dec. 27, the Shiite holy day of Ashura, during which at least eight protesters were killed. The prosecutor asked for the death sentence for five of them. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/wo...st/02iran.html http://www.truthout.org/government-e...ters-iran56545 Quote: Iran hanged two opposition protesters on Thursday and sentenced nine more to death for taking part in widespread rallies against President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad following last June's presidential election.[...]In a speech just before the reopening of universities last August, the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei called university professors "key elements in creating a velvet revolution in the country" and asked that all universities be "purified" of those who contributed to unrest. According to sources inside the country, this was reason enough for a wave of forced retirements and firings by universities. Law, social and political studies were the departments first targeted, but it later crept into other fields such as economics.
	Last edited by Pardalis; 9th February 2010 at 09:14 AM.

9th February 2010, 09:12 AM	#5
funk de fino Dreaming of unicorns Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alba Posts: 10,790	Originally Posted by ZARDOZ With all that said BBC has a "Have your Say" section and the question is "How should the world react to Iran’s nuclear regime?" And the top 5 reader's-recommended replies are all pointing fingers at the USA and Israel: Which leads me to the question, since these "Have Your Say" reader's-recommended replies are mainly by Europeans, are many Europeans really blind about the dangers a nuclear-armed Iran poses? And a good few are Canadian. Are many Canadians really blind to............
	__________________ Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. Christopher 7 - There is no need to contact them for conformation. That is just a denial tactic

9th February 2010, 10:00 AM	#6
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by ZARDOZ Which leads me to the question, since these "Have Your Say" reader's-recommended replies are mainly by Europeans, are many Europeans really blind about the dangers a nuclear-armed Iran poses? No, I think it's more a case of seeing that Iran is right to feel threatened, and since they feel threatened by Israel and USA, an attack on Europe is not very likely. There's also the excellent point that if Israel and USA didn't wave nuclear weapons in Iran's face all the time, their desire for owning nukes might be considerably less. The final lesson should indeed be Iran's though. Instead of worrying about jailing or executing opposition, just act like Dubbya - ignore the election result and steal the country anyway. Which possibly also accounts for European attitudes of looking at the whole US/Israel/Iran business and realising that there are several pots and kettles in the mix. What should those Euros think?
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

9th February 2010, 10:04 AM	#7
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117	Originally Posted by funk de fino And a good few are Canadian. Are many Canadians really blind to............ Since I am a Canuk I can tell you that 99.99% of my fellow Canadians I have had a conversation with regarding the Iranian regime are very concerned about Iran. The combination of the Iranian Mullahs cracking down on every-day folk who oppose Ahmadinejad, the Iranian support for Hamas and Hezbollah, and that Ahmadinejad is truly a nutcase is cause for serious concern. Add nuclear weapons to that mix and frankly you could have a serious issue with terror groups getting a dirty bomb or Iran attacking Sunni countries they don't particularly like. (We already know what Ahmadinejad wants to do with Israel..) So my question - using the BBC "Have Your Say" top-recommended posts as a barometer - is still a valid question. Why are the top recommended posts there by Europeans dismissive of Iran's potential threat? Is that the tone in Europe? ETA Originally Posted by The Atheist What should those Euros think? I am not the judge of what Europeans should think. I am just wondering what they think. For instance in a few years Iran will have a missile that could reach most European capitals. Iran has also threatened to strike "British and American targets": Quote: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle706132.ece IRAN has formed battalions of suicide bombers to strike at British and American targets if the nation’s nuclear sites are attacked. According to Iranian officials, 40,000 trained suicide bombers are ready for action. The main force, named the Special Unit of Martyr Seekers in the Revolutionary Guards, was first seen last month when members marched in a military parade, dressed in olive-green uniforms with explosive packs around their waists and detonators held high. Quote: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...67_page6.shtml "Last one," Wallace said. "You have a special unit of martyr seekers in your revolutionary guard. They claim they have 52,000 trained suicide bombers ready to attack American and British targets if America should attack Iran." "So, are you expecting the Americans to threaten us and we sit idly by and watch them with our hands … tied?" Ahmadinejad said. That's not a denial by Ahmadinejad that trained suicide bombers are ready to go.
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117	Last edited by ZARDOZ; 9th February 2010 at 10:15 AM.

9th February 2010, 08:57 AM	#2
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by ZARDOZ Six years for opposing Ahmadinejad... goodness, sounds like Nazi Germany during Hitler's reign. no...Hitler sent you to the gas chambers for opposing him.

9th February 2010, 09:06 AM	#3
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	While Iran is indeed wrong to jail people for opposing beliefs, they are in no way acting like the Nazis. we don't have to make false accusations of Iran being equal to Nazi Germany, in order to try to force them to stop nuclear enrichment.

9th February 2010, 10:18 AM	#8
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,990	Originally Posted by The Atheist No, I think it's more a case of seeing that Iran is right to feel threatened, and since they feel threatened by Israel and USA, an attack on Europe is not very likely. Why would Iran feel threatened by Israel? Why is Iran sending arms to Hamas and Hezbollah to wage war on Israel? Why is Iran training Hamas and Hezbollah fighters to fight Israel? Quote: There's also the excellent point that if Israel and USA didn't wave nuclear weapons in Iran's face all the time, their desire for owning nukes might be considerably less. Nobody has waved nuclear weapons in Iran's face. Iran is ostracized because they are a state that supports terrorism. The USA wouldn't even care about Iran if they didn't support terrorism. Quote: The final lesson should indeed be Iran's though. Instead of worrying about jailing or executing opposition, just act like Dubbya - ignore the election result and steal the country anyway. Your ignorance of the 2000 election is stunning. Feel free to bump an existing thread on it if you want to prove to the JREF once again how little you know about... well, anything.

9th February 2010, 10:22 AM	#9
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117	Originally Posted by WildCat Nobody has waved nuclear weapons in Iran's face. Iran is ostracized because they are a state that supports terrorism. The USA wouldn't even care about Iran if they didn't support terrorism. Nor do people in the US or Israel chant "Death to ________________" at every turn. Look at the news today. Quote: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1148593.html About 100 Iranians protested Tuesday in front of the Italian embassy in Tehran, shouting Death to Italy, Death to Berlusconi, Italy's foreign minister said. Protests were also held outside the French and Dutch embassies. Quote: http://www.france24.com/en/20100209-...ran-berlusconi Around 100 pro-government militia members tried to storm Italy's embassy in Tehran on Tuesday, Italy's foreign minister has said. Italy has cancelled its attendance at Thursday's ceremonies in Tehran marking the anniversary of the Iranian Revolution. Those ain't American and Israeli embassies these pro-government militia members are trying to storm. And that is why European ambivalence confuses me - if I use the BBC "Have Your Say" top-recommended posts as a barometer. ETA These Iranian militia members are VERY serious about these public "death to _________________" statements.
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117	Last edited by ZARDOZ; 9th February 2010 at 10:31 AM.

9th February 2010, 10:57 AM	#10
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by WildCat Why would Iran feel threatened by Israel? Oh, I don;t know. Maybe the history of an over-armed country with a history of attacking countries in the vicinity while practicing apartheid within its borders. Something along those lines. Originally Posted by WildCat Why is Iran sending arms to Hamas and Hezbollah to wage war on Israel? Why is Iran training Hamas and Hezbollah fighters to fight Israel? See above. Originally Posted by WildCat Nobody has waved nuclear weapons in Iran's face. Iran is ostracized because they are a state that supports terrorism. The USA wouldn't even care about Iran if they didn't support terrorism. My word, they certainly hooked you in the school of polidiocy didn't they? Polidiocy is like theodicy, but done in political questions. Shall we now discuss Iraq's weapons of mass destruction? Originally Posted by WildCat Your ignorance of the 2000 election is stunning. Feel free to bump an existing thread on it if you want to prove to the JREF once again how little you know about... well, anything. Oh, so Bush won the election fair & square? You seem like such a reliable source, too.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

9th February 2010, 11:03 AM	#11
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,802	There is nothing the Iranian Government will not do that The Athiest will not justify or explain away, apparently. Quote: Oh, I don;t know. Maybe the history of an over-armed country with a history of attacking countries in the vicinity while practicing apartheid within its borders. Interesting that the Athiest justify Iran's action by saying they are threatned by their neighbors, but does not allow Israel the same justification. The way he is going his next act will be justifying the 9/11 Attacks.
	Last edited by dudalb; 9th February 2010 at 11:06 AM.

9th February 2010, 11:05 AM	#12
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Odd that an atheist would jump to the defense of a totalitarian Islamic regime.

9th February 2010, 11:06 AM	#13
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,770	I would suggest that using "Have your say" as a barometer of anything but levels of spittle is likely to lead you astray: http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

9th February 2010, 11:13 AM	#14
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,641	Originally Posted by Darat I would suggest that using "Have your say" as a barometer of anything but levels of spittle is likely to lead you astray: http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/ From the link: "Try and forget that you’ve pissed a substantial portion of your life away patiently shoveling lorry-loads of arseblubber into the internet." Words to live by people.
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

9th February 2010, 11:36 AM	#15
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,320	Originally Posted by ZARDOZ Six years for opposing Ahmadinejad... goodness, sounds like Nazi Germany during Hitler's reign. <snip> With all that said BBC has a "Have your Say" section and the question is "How should the world react to Iran’s nuclear regime?" And the top 5 reader's-recommended replies are all pointing fingers at the USA and Israel: Can you spot the strawman you erected? You're trying to tie Iran's internal policy with its foreign policy, and you use Nazi Germany to justify that. Are you as concerned with China having nukes, or the Soviet Union? Those countries are/were comparably harsh on their citizens. That doesn't say a thing about their foreign policies. And while Ahmadinejad gives vile hate speech, I don't think he's a nutcase, and I don't think the Iranian regime as a whole is foolish enough to start dangerous adventures. Moreover, they're old enough to remember the horrific Iran-Iraq war. As to the fingerpointing to the US and Israel: don't you think Iran is more than a bit nervous with US troops on its western and its eastern borders - and Dubya calling it for eight years part of the "Axis of Evil", and openly musing about an invasion? Likewise, in Israel the discourse is more "when do we attack Iran" then "should we attack Iran". And there's precedent too - Osirak. Really, when it comes to nukes I'm more worried about the Pakistani ones. Who knows who rules there tomorrow...
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

9th February 2010, 11:39 AM	#16
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,424	Originally Posted by parky76 no...Hitler sent you to the gas chambers for opposing him. I just thought he had them killed in more traditional manners. At least for high level opposition like this.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

9th February 2010, 11:49 AM	#17
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,990	Originally Posted by The Atheist Oh, I don;t know. Maybe the history of an over-armed country with a history of attacking countries in the vicinity while practicing apartheid within its borders. Disregarding for the moment your curious claim that fighting invaders constitutes "attacking countries in the vicinity", you may want to check your map. Iran is not "in the vicinity" of Iran by most non-astronomical uses of the term. And I'm sure you feel they're over armed, since they have been able to fend off 4 invasion attempts. Must really gnaw at you that Israel still exists, doesn't it? Israel has never attacked Iran, yet Iran has been financing, training, and arming insurrections against Israel for 30 years. And according to you Israel is the aggressor? Quote: Something along those lines. So it's all based on your personal delusions? Quote: See above. So it really is all about your personal delusions brought about through your stunning ignorance of history?? Quote: My word, they certainly hooked you in the school of polidiocy didn't they? Polidiocy is like theodicy, but done in political questions. No, I didn't go to your school. I could never hope to match your political idiocy, I admit you are the master of that. Quote: Oh, so Bush won the election fair & square? You seem like such a reliable source, too. I'm not the source. Now, I certainly don't expect you to stop digging this hole for yourself. I eagerly await your next post to see just how anxious you are demonstrate to the whole forum your dizzying display of pretend intellect.

9th February 2010, 11:51 AM	#18
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,514
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

9th February 2010, 12:00 PM	#19
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117	Originally Posted by ddt Can you spot the strawman you erected? You're trying to tie Iran's internal policy with its foreign policy, and you use Nazi Germany to justify that. Sorry but I did not use Nazi Germany to justify anything. I said it sounds like Nazi Germany.. how the Iranian regime is throwing opposition leaders into jail. Please stop with the strawmen which you are clearly trying to create with a blatant false claim. Originally Posted by ddt Are you as concerned with China having nukes, or the Soviet Union? Those countries are/were comparably harsh on their citizens. That doesn't say a thing about their foreign policies. Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah openly. They support insurgents in Iraq. That's Iran's foreign policy... using proxies. You can't sweep that under the rug ddt. Originally Posted by Darat I would suggest that using "Have your say" as a barometer of anything but levels of spittle is likely to lead you astray: http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/ I agree that the BBC's "Have Your Say" is a bunch of random people posting. But aside from the randomness these posts, what I find disturbing is that the most recommended posts on "Have Your Say" seem to be penned by Europeans. And that these most-recommended posts seem to follow a general anti-Israel, anti-USA theme. Do these man-on-the-street European posters have amnesia? Don't they remember what happened 60 years ago when Europe ignored another "guy" who openly telegraphed his future intentions? Originally Posted by The Atheist Oh, I don;t know. Maybe the history of an over-armed country with a history of attacking countries in the vicinity while practicing apartheid within its borders. Damn if that ain't spin I dunno what is. Hahahahahaha! Thanks for the belly laugh The Atheist.
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117	Last edited by ZARDOZ; 9th February 2010 at 12:02 PM.

9th February 2010, 12:11 PM	#20
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,770	Originally Posted by ZARDOZ ...snip... I agree that the BBC's "Have Your Say" is a bunch of random people posting. But aside from the randomness these posts, what I find disturbing is that the most recommended posts on "Have Your Say" seem to be penned by Europeans. And that these most-recommended posts seem to follow a general anti-Israel, anti-USA theme. ...snip... And all I can reply with is "and?". So some random folks post some things and from that you want to draw such conclusions, invoking stuff like pre-WWII? It seems a rather large leap to me.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

9th February 2010, 12:28 PM	#21
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117	Originally Posted by Darat And all I can reply with is "and?". So some random folks post some things and from that you want to draw such conclusions, invoking stuff like pre-WWII? It seems a rather large leap to me. I don't want to draw conclusions from the top-recommended "Have Your Say" posts. That is why I started this thread. I am asking other Europeans from JREF what I wrote in my original post: Quote: "...are many Europeans really blind about the dangers a nuclear-armed Iran?" I ask this question because I want to hear from Europeans what their experience is... so that I DO NOT draw incorrect conclusions.
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117

9th February 2010, 12:32 PM	#22
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,770	You are still going to get a very, very small sample that I would suggest is not representative of any "European view"; especially since this is an English language forum so the vast majority of Europeans will be excluded from even participating. Remember there are over 40 different countries that are included in the term "European", with a combined population well in excess of 400 million.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

9th February 2010, 12:37 PM	#23
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,770	If you want my view (as me not as a "European") internally Iran is very unstable and the current regime is desperately trying to cling onto power. And given the anniversary that is about due they are trying to dissuade the population from any further anti-state protests because they fear they could snowball into another revolution.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

9th February 2010, 12:40 PM	#24
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	I think two things here: 1. Iran is most likely gonna "surprise" us by stating in a year or two that: "we originally planned on having a only peaceful nuclear program, but now that the West and Israel is up our butts, we have no choice but to develop nuclear weapons to defend ourselves." 2. I think Israelis and some right-wing Jews are determined, at all costs, using any means necessary, to convince Europeans and Americans that "our enemy is your enemy", even though most Europeans and many Americans simply don't buy it. Clearly, many Israelis and right-wing Jews feel that others are not sufficiently on their side against Iran. But its not OUR fault that Iran hates Israel. Nor should it be our burden to handle. If Israel wants to bomb the **** out of Iran, by all means.....go ahead. But just be sure to have the evidence to justify it, after the smoke and radiation clears.

9th February 2010, 01:04 PM	#25
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117	Originally Posted by Darat And given the anniversary that is about due they are trying to dissuade the population from any further anti-state protests because they fear they could snowball into another revolution. The Iranian I work with - (see my first post) - tells me that many average Iranians oppose the government these days. He says that the beatings, arrests and executions have polarized the intellectuals and young people. He says that additionally Ahmadinejad's regime never lived up to their internal economic promises either.. and that his poor performance on the international stage has hurt Iran economically - (which hurts Iranians economically.) And let's not forget the missing 35 billion in oil revenues... Quote: http://www.meepas.com/Iran_Biggest_corruption_case.htm In what appears to be the biggest case of corruption in post revolution Iran, and perhaps in the Middle East, the Tehran-based Shahab News reported that the chief auditing office of the Iranian parliament (Majlis) has revealed that close to $35 billion of oil income from the financial year 2006-07 is missing. But my co-worker also cautions that there is a group of scary jihad-driven folks in Iran too.. That's the people that scare the heck out of me.. the ones attacking the Italian, French and Dutch embassies in Iran as I type this post.
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117

9th February 2010, 02:08 PM	#26
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117	Originally Posted by parky76 Godwinning. Either denies the barbarity of the Nazis, or highly exaggerates the misdeeds of one's target. I'm gonna say this once an once only. The Iranian regime is jailing opposition members just like Hitler jailed people who opposed him. The Nazis eliminated opposition through a process known as Gleichschaltung - "bringing into line." The Iranian regime is eliminating opposition by similar processes... beatings, jailing, and executions. I don't think I am off base in any way by comparing the two.
ZARDOZ Scholar Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 117

9th February 2010, 02:15 PM	#27
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,770	Originally Posted by ZARDOZ I'm gonna say this once an once only. The Iranian regime is jailing opposition members just like Hitler jailed people who opposed him. The Nazis eliminated opposition through a process known as Gleichschaltung - "bringing into line." The Iranian regime is eliminating opposition by similar processes... beatings, jailing, and executions. I don't think I am off base in any way by comparing the two. I understand your point and I don't particularly disagree with the points of comparison you are making but using the Nazis as an example to compare against does tend to drag in a huge amount of additional baggage that often deflects from the point you wanted to make by using the comparison. As you can see happening in the thread right now. I would suggest that folk forget about the Nazi comparison point and actually discuss the brutality the state is using against its own citizens as well as the other points the opening post made.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

9th February 2010, 02:32 PM	#28
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Darat I would suggest that folk forget about the Nazi comparison point and actually discuss the brutality the state is using against its own citizens as well as the other points the opening post made. I wish, just once, someone would say: "these guys are sooo bad!! they remind me of the KGB and the Soviets!!"

9th February 2010, 02:40 PM	#29
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,514	Originally Posted by parky76 I wish, just once, someone would say: "these guys are sooo bad!! they remind me of the KGB and the Soviets!!" Have you not been paying attention to the teabaggers?
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

9th February 2010, 03:05 PM	#30
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,320	Originally Posted by ZARDOZ Sorry but I did not use Nazi Germany to justify anything. I said it sounds like Nazi Germany.. how the Iranian regime is throwing opposition leaders into jail. Please stop with the strawmen which you are clearly trying to create with a blatant false claim. I'm merely trying to find an explanation for your jump from internal politics to foreign politics. Originally Posted by ZARDOZ I'm gonna say this once an once only. The Iranian regime is jailing opposition members just like Hitler jailed people who opposed him. The Nazis eliminated opposition through a process known as Gleichschaltung - "bringing into line." The Iranian regime is eliminating opposition by similar processes... beatings, jailing, and executions. I don't think I am off base in any way by comparing the two. Yes you are. Though the above analogies are fine, the Nazis are also and more famously known for starting World War 2 and the Holocaust. Why didn't you choose any of those regimes Darth listed? Originally Posted by ZARDOZ Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah openly. They support insurgents in Iraq. That's Iran's foreign policy... using proxies. You can't sweep that under the rug ddt. Sorry, you don't get off that easily. First explain your jump from internal politics to foreign politics. Why would a regime that's brutal to its own citizens be necessarily a threat in world politics? You introduced the connection in the OP, so first explain that one before introducing other factors.
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

9th February 2010, 03:54 PM	#31
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by dudalb There is nothing the Iranian Government will not do that The Athiest will not justify or explain away, apparently. Not even close. I don't support the regime at all. On the other hand, I didn't support the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan either. Let's look back to the deposing of the Shah. In the meantime, how many middle eastern countries has Iran attacked and how many USA/Israel? Originally Posted by dudalb Interesting that the Athiest justify Iran's action by saying they are threatned by their neighbors, but does not allow Israel the same justification. The way he is going his next act will be justifying the 9/11 Attacks. Shouldn't think so. I'll build my own strawmen if that's ok with you. Originally Posted by Pardalis Odd that an atheist would jump to the defense of a totalitarian Islamic regime. Only as odd as those that defend a miltaristic policy of invasion of sovereign states by a country which is on a different continent. Originally Posted by WildCat Disregarding for the moment your curious claim that fighting invaders constitutes "attacking countries in the vicinity", you may want to check your map. Iran is not "in the vicinity" of Iran by most non-astronomical uses of the term. And I'm sure you feel they're over armed, since they have been able to fend off 4 invasion attempts. Must really gnaw at you that Israel still exists, doesn't it? Nah. I'd vote for Israel's continued existence anytime. It's their policies of apartheid within and threats (and attacks) against other countries which bother me. Just curious, how many times has Israel threatened to attack Iran's alleged nuclear facilities? Originally Posted by WildCat Israel has never attacked Iran, yet Iran has been financing, training, and arming insurrections against Israel for 30 years. And according to you Israel is the aggressor? See above. Not to mention that since Israel keeps attacking allies of Iran, the irony of you supporting USA doing exactly the same thing is rich indeed. Originally Posted by WildCat Now, I certainly don't expect you to stop digging this hole for yourself. I eagerly await your next post to see just how anxious you are demonstrate to the whole forum your dizzying display of pretend intellect. No need, really. The absurd replies coming from you are self-evident that you're just a hawk in cat's clothing. You have been defending the indefensible as long as I've seen you post and your feeble resorts to abuse say it all in terms of actually making a case - you don't have one. See; look at your very first paragraph above - you automatically and incorrectly assume that I'm antisemitic. You have no idea at all outside of the propaganda you've been spoon fed.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

9th February 2010, 08:37 PM	#32
portlandatheist Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,111	Originally Posted by The Atheist Instead of worrying about jailing or executing opposition, just act like Dubbya - ignore the election result and steal the country anyway. Conspiracy Theory Forum is that way ---------------->

9th February 2010, 09:56 PM	#33
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,990	Originally Posted by The Atheist See above. Not to mention that since Israel keeps attacking allies of Iran, the irony of you supporting USA doing exactly the same thing is rich indeed. Israel actually had good relations with Iran until the revolution. Then Iran immediately started fighting Israel by proxy. Israel has never attacked Iran, Iran has been attacking Israel for 30 years. Iran is the aggressor, deal with it. Quote: No need, really. The absurd replies coming from you are self-evident that you're just a hawk in cat's clothing. You have been defending the indefensible as long as I've seen you post and your feeble resorts to abuse say it all in terms of actually making a case - you don't have one. See; look at your very first paragraph above - you automatically and incorrectly assume that I'm antisemitic. You have no idea at all outside of the propaganda you've been spoon fed. Actually I correctly assumed you have no clue as to the history of Israel and Iran and are ascribing 30 years of Iranian aggression towards Israel to Israeli concerns about Iran's nuclear program over the last 10 years or so. Pretzel logic. You are siding with a theocratic regime which supports terrorism, hangs homosexuals, hangs and jails political protestors, kidnaps foreigners for propaganda purposes, and has attacked Israel for 30 years through proxies such as Hamas and Hezbollah. You then fault Israel for threatening a strike on Iranian facilities they suspect of manufacturing nuclear weapons? Iran actually attacks Israel for 30 years: The Atheist says they're the good guys. Israel finally responds with words: The Atheist condemns them and says they deserve everything they get. That's some rational thinking there The Atheist.

9th February 2010, 10:42 PM	#34
Sword_Of_Truth Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11,497	Originally Posted by parky76 I honestly consider Godwining to be a form of Holocaust-denial, Parky, you might wanna put that thing away before you hurt yourself.

9th February 2010, 11:04 PM	#35
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Quote: I honestly consider Godwining to be a form of Holocaust-denial I honestly consider a raven to be similar to a writing desk.