We Are Change does NOT respect diversity

Thunder · 9th February 2010, 08:49 AM

Following an earlier thread here, which put into question W.A.C.'s commitment to political diversity and openness to different beliefs, I contacted W.A.C., to see if a devoted Communist could join their ranks.

According to We Are Change's "code of conduct", they:

"We Are Change is tolerant of all political viewpoints and does not endorse and particular political group".

but yet, after simply informing one of their representatives that I was a devoted Communist, I was told that I was NOT welcome.

So much for consistency. So much for being honest. So much for freedom of thought and belief.

Here is the email exchange. Its in reverse order, from most recent to original email. Enjoy.

------It's not about being discriminatory against your political beliefs. Your
inquiring about joining an organization that promotes and fights for the
US Constitution which is direct oppostion to what Communism stands for.

It would be like you wanting to join PETA because you are against drug
companies testing on animals, but at the same time you support people
wearing fur jackets and like to wear them yourself. Both positions are in
total antithesis of each other.

It just makes no sense as to why a self proclaimed communist would want to
join an organization that is in total oppostion to your beliefs.

-Dan Burke-
We Are CHANGE

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can
change the world; in fact it is the only thing that ever does.” — Margaret
Mead

Thanks for getting back to me.

Forgive me, but I was under the impression that We Are Change allowed all
individuals, regardless of their political beliefs. Is that not in your
list of rules on your web page..that W.A.C. does not discriminate against
any political belief systems?

Thanks,

________________________________
From: "dan@wearechange.org" <dan@wearechange.org>
To: 333333333
Sent: Mon, February 8, 2010 6:55:16 PM
Subject: [Fwd: RE: [Fwd: membership in 9-11 truth]]

From The Communist Manifesto

10 point program

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to
public purposes.
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Abolition of all right of inheritance.
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national
bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of
the State.
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State;
the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the
soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies,
especially for agriculture.
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual
abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable
distribution of the population over the country.
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's
factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with
industrial production.[8]

These beliefs are in direct contradiction to the US Constitution. Call
yourself a communist and this what you have to defend. You could have
said nothing and I commend you for your honesty.

But......

911 Truth ain't the end all for WAC

Michael Knarr
www.PolygraphRadio.com
www.WeAreChangePA.com
www.PAoathkeepers.com

Hi there. I have come to think that for the most part, 9-11 was indeed an
inside job, and I am looking to work with fellow people who think the same
way.

however, I am also a devoted Communist, and have been for much of my adult
life. Would I be welcome in your organization, regardless of these
political views?

thanks for any info,

Michael,------

Drudgewire · 9th February 2010, 08:56 AM

I gotta tell you... his explanation seems pretty sound to me. v

v

Par · 9th February 2010, 09:19 AM

How utterly banal and tedious.

Horatius · 9th February 2010, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

I gotta tell you... his explanation seems pretty sound to me. vhttp://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/shobon.gifv

And if they'd said that on their website, all would be good. It's the inconsistency of claiming they respect all political ideologies, and then shutting the door in his face, that's the problem.

Just another example of them lying, even to themselves.

DavidJames · 9th February 2010, 10:38 AM

You shouldn't expect intellectual honesty from an organization who's premise is inherently intellectually dishonest.

quarky · 9th February 2010, 10:43 AM

Yet, parky's query was dishonest. Calls the kettle black.

Unless you actually are a communist, in which case, I apologize.

Drudgewire · 9th February 2010, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Horatius

Just another example of them lying, even to themselves.

I just can't get past the irony of basing this on a dishonest attempt at a "gotcha."

ETA: And like quarky said, if Parky's actually a communist looking to join, I take it back.

rwguinn · 9th February 2010, 11:37 AM

And this is news in what way?

Thunder · 9th February 2010, 12:47 PM

no...I am no Communist.

Though, I do consider myself to be a Social-Democrat and would support a social-market economy to be installed in the USA.

but i do not support the abolition of private property. i do support massive regulation of corporations and natural resource industries, though.

and i support a single-payer health care system. and public financing of elections.

...but Im no Commy.

Sledge · 9th February 2010, 12:55 PM

This group believes the US government murdered 3000 of it's own citizens, and you're picking them up on their discriminatory membership policies*? I'm not entirely clear on what you're hoping to achieve here.

*which information you lied to obtain. That criticism of their lying rings a little hollow now.

Drudgewire · 9th February 2010, 01:02 PM

Regardless of how misguided we all agree they are, they openly identify themselves as a patriot organization. Not only does a communist ideology go against what they promote as their mission statement, someone who identified themselves as a communist would consider themselves in direct contrast with what WAC claims to stand for. They would be better served to join other truther groups that don't wear their colors on their sleeve.

This is akin to writing a racial diversity group as a klansman and saying you want to join, and claiming they're not really supporting diverse opinions when they refused.

McHrozni · 9th February 2010, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

Yet, parky's query was dishonest. Calls the kettle black.

Hm. An organization openly declares itself open to all people regardless of their ideology and when someone they disagree with tries to join they bar him immediately.

How does that compare with a fake application to the same organization to see if they even follow their own rules?

To be fair, one rule states that they respect the US Constitution, which is somewhat in line of their response. I suppose freedom of speech and thought is not a part of they support, though.

McHrozni

Skeptic · 9th February 2010, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Sledge

This group believes the US government murdered 3000 of it's own citizens, and you're picking them up on their discriminatory membership policies*?

It's a bit like the Klan officially not allowing Blacks to join. Why would any Black want to is another issue.

Hmmmm, on second thought...

Sledge · 10th February 2010, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

Hm. An organization openly declares itself open to all people regardless of their ideology and when someone they disagree with tries to join they bar him immediately.

How does that compare with a fake application to the same organization to see if they even follow their own rules?

To be fair, one rule states that they respect the US Constitution, which is somewhat in line of their response. I suppose freedom of speech and thought is not a part of they support, though.

McHrozni

The problem I'm having here is that I can't see what useful point parky is trying to make. WAC say they're open to people of all ideologies but won't accept communists. Ok. And? Their reasoning for not accepting communists seems fairly sound to me. Maybe they should explain this in their FAQ, but so what? To be honest, this kind of thing strikes me as the sort of petty trickery I'd associate with the truther movement.

Oh, and it's possible to support freedom of speech without necessarily wanting every loony in the world to shout their ideas in your front room.

Cl1mh4224rd · 10th February 2010, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by Sledge

To be honest, this kind of thing strikes me as the sort of petty trickery I'd associate with the truther movement.

Investigative journalists do this pretty often.

Thunder · 10th February 2010, 05:33 AM

hey...i was bored. and I think WAC is wack. and i wanted to prove it from their own words.

Sledge · 10th February 2010, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd

Investigative journalists do this pretty often.

Oh, well it must be alright then. If the News of the Screws uses the technique to drum up sales, it's obviously above reproach.

zaphod2016 · 10th February 2010, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

I gotta tell you... his explanation seems pretty sound to me. vhttp://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/shobon.gifv

Why not just add this to the TOS?

We Are Change (aka WAC, read: whack) support the U.S. Constitution and expect our members to do the same. Fictional, non-existent Communists need not apply.

Also: Parky, someone is paying you to do this, right? I sure hope so.

Thunder · 10th February 2010, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by zaphod2016

Also: Parky, someone is paying you to do this, right? I sure hope so.

what? it only took me a few minutes.

9th February 2010, 08:49 AM	#1
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	We Are Change does NOT respect diversity Following an earlier thread here, which put into question W.A.C.'s commitment to political diversity and openness to different beliefs, I contacted W.A.C., to see if a devoted Communist could join their ranks. According to We Are Change's "code of conduct", they: "We Are Change is tolerant of all political viewpoints and does not endorse and particular political group". but yet, after simply informing one of their representatives that I was a devoted Communist, I was told that I was NOT welcome. So much for consistency. So much for being honest. So much for freedom of thought and belief. Here is the email exchange. Its in reverse order, from most recent to original email. Enjoy. ------It's not about being discriminatory against your political beliefs. Your inquiring about joining an organization that promotes and fights for the US Constitution which is direct oppostion to what Communism stands for. It would be like you wanting to join PETA because you are against drug companies testing on animals, but at the same time you support people wearing fur jackets and like to wear them yourself. Both positions are in total antithesis of each other. It just makes no sense as to why a self proclaimed communist would want to join an organization that is in total oppostion to your beliefs. -Dan Burke- We Are CHANGE “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; in fact it is the only thing that ever does.” — Margaret Mead Thanks for getting back to me. Forgive me, but I was under the impression that We Are Change allowed all individuals, regardless of their political beliefs. Is that not in your list of rules on your web page..that W.A.C. does not discriminate against any political belief systems? Thanks, ________________________________ From: "dan@wearechange.org" <dan@wearechange.org> To: 333333333 Sent: Mon, February 8, 2010 6:55:16 PM Subject: [Fwd: RE: [Fwd: membership in 9-11 truth]] From The Communist Manifesto 10 point program Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. Abolition of all right of inheritance. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.[8] These beliefs are in direct contradiction to the US Constitution. Call yourself a communist and this what you have to defend. You could have said nothing and I commend you for your honesty. But...... 911 Truth ain't the end all for WAC Michael Knarr www.PolygraphRadio.com www.WeAreChangePA.com www.PAoathkeepers.com Hi there. I have come to think that for the most part, 9-11 was indeed an inside job, and I am looking to work with fellow people who think the same way. however, I am also a devoted Communist, and have been for much of my adult life. Would I be welcome in your organization, regardless of these political views? thanks for any info, Michael,------
	Last edited by Thunder; 9th February 2010 at 08:54 AM.

9th February 2010, 08:56 AM	#2
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	I gotta tell you... his explanation seems pretty sound to me. vv
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

9th February 2010, 09:19 AM	#3
Par Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 2,769	How utterly banal and tedious.
	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

9th February 2010, 10:03 AM	#4
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by Drudgewire I gotta tell you... his explanation seems pretty sound to me. vhttp://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/shobon.gifv And if they'd said that on their website, all would be good. It's the inconsistency of claiming they respect all political ideologies, and then shutting the door in his face, that's the problem. Just another example of them lying, even to themselves.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

9th February 2010, 10:38 AM	#5
DavidJames Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 7,088	You shouldn't expect intellectual honesty from an organization who's premise is inherently intellectually dishonest.
	__________________ I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars. Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.

9th February 2010, 10:43 AM	#6
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Yet, parky's query was dishonest. Calls the kettle black. Unless you actually are a communist, in which case, I apologize.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

9th February 2010, 10:44 AM	#7
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Originally Posted by Horatius Just another example of them lying, even to themselves. I just can't get past the irony of basing this on a dishonest attempt at a "gotcha." ETA: And like quarky said, if Parky's actually a communist looking to join, I take it back.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

9th February 2010, 11:37 AM	#8
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,456	And this is news in what way?
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

9th February 2010, 12:47 PM	#9
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	no...I am no Communist. Though, I do consider myself to be a Social-Democrat and would support a social-market economy to be installed in the USA. but i do not support the abolition of private property. i do support massive regulation of corporations and natural resource industries, though. and i support a single-payer health care system. and public financing of elections. ...but Im no Commy.

9th February 2010, 12:55 PM	#10
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	This group believes the US government murdered 3000 of it's own citizens, and you're picking them up on their discriminatory membership policies? I'm not entirely clear on what you're hoping to achieve here. which information you lied to obtain. That criticism of their lying rings a little hollow now.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

9th February 2010, 01:02 PM	#11
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Regardless of how misguided we all agree they are, they openly identify themselves as a patriot organization. Not only does a communist ideology go against what they promote as their mission statement, someone who identified themselves as a communist would consider themselves in direct contrast with what WAC claims to stand for. They would be better served to join other truther groups that don't wear their colors on their sleeve. This is akin to writing a racial diversity group as a klansman and saying you want to join, and claiming they're not really supporting diverse opinions when they refused.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

9th February 2010, 11:26 PM	#12
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,572	Originally Posted by quarky Yet, parky's query was dishonest. Calls the kettle black. Hm. An organization openly declares itself open to all people regardless of their ideology and when someone they disagree with tries to join they bar him immediately. How does that compare with a fake application to the same organization to see if they even follow their own rules? To be fair, one rule states that they respect the US Constitution, which is somewhat in line of their response. I suppose freedom of speech and thought is not a part of they support, though. McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,572

9th February 2010, 11:43 PM	#13
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by Sledge This group believes the US government murdered 3000 of it's own citizens, and you're picking them up on their discriminatory membership policies? It's a bit like the Klan officially not allowing Blacks to join. Why would any Black want* to is another issue. Hmmmm, on second thought...

10th February 2010, 03:43 AM	#14
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by McHrozni Hm. An organization openly declares itself open to all people regardless of their ideology and when someone they disagree with tries to join they bar him immediately. How does that compare with a fake application to the same organization to see if they even follow their own rules? To be fair, one rule states that they respect the US Constitution, which is somewhat in line of their response. I suppose freedom of speech and thought is not a part of they support, though. McHrozni The problem I'm having here is that I can't see what useful point parky is trying to make. WAC say they're open to people of all ideologies but won't accept communists. Ok. And? Their reasoning for not accepting communists seems fairly sound to me. Maybe they should explain this in their FAQ, but so what? To be honest, this kind of thing strikes me as the sort of petty trickery I'd associate with the truther movement. Oh, and it's possible to support freedom of speech without necessarily wanting every loony in the world to shout their ideas in your front room.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain. Last edited by Sledge; 10th February 2010 at 03:51 AM.

10th February 2010, 05:04 AM	#15
Cl1mh4224rd Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 6,618	Originally Posted by Sledge To be honest, this kind of thing strikes me as the sort of petty trickery I'd associate with the truther movement. Investigative journalists do this pretty often.

10th February 2010, 05:33 AM	#16
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	hey...i was bored. and I think WAC is wack. and i wanted to prove it from their own words.

10th February 2010, 08:20 AM	#17
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd Investigative journalists do this pretty often. Oh, well it must be alright then. If the News of the Screws uses the technique to drum up sales, it's obviously above reproach.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

10th February 2010, 11:16 AM	#18
zaphod2016 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Beaches of Florida Posts: 1,035	Originally Posted by Drudgewire I gotta tell you... his explanation seems pretty sound to me. vhttp://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/shobon.gifv Why not just add this to the TOS? We Are Change (aka WAC, read: whack) support the U.S. Constitution and expect our members to do the same. Fictional, non-existent Communists need not apply. Also: Parky, someone is paying you to do this, right? I sure hope so.

10th February 2010, 06:42 PM	#19
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by zaphod2016 Also: Parky, someone is paying you to do this, right? I sure hope so. what? it only took me a few minutes.