"Amega Wand" Chrystal/Mineral healing scam

[Stray Cat]

Originally Posted by MWave

You’ve got this all backwards.

˙uǝl punoɹ ʎɐʍ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ ʇı ʇoƃ s,ʇɐɥʇ ǝɯ s,ʇı ʞuıɥʇ ʇ,uop ı

Originally Posted by MWave

The onus is on YOU to debunk the evidence I’ve presented.

Present some then... so far all we have is anecdotes from your own website... that is, the word of someone who is in the dubious business of MLM.

Originally Posted by MWave

I’ve provided a mountain of information that supports my consumer advocacy agenda and my denouncing of the hype and lies that taint this industry.

Yes, on your own website... what I'm looking for is third party verification.
All I can find on the rest of the interweb is people saying you are a conman.

Originally Posted by MWave

You see, unlike you, I have nothing to hide. I take full personal responsibility for what I say and do, and fully identify myself on message boards as part of that processes. If there’s anything on my MarketWave website or within my resumé that is false or embellished you should have no problem identifying it. And it is YOUR job to do so.

No Len, it is my 'job' to create graphic designs for my clients... this is more a hobby.

Originally Posted by MWave

BTW, there was a lengthy thread on Scam.com started by your new troll buddy Doc Bunkum that was devoted entirely to this process, which several other trolls participated in. In spite of their efforts (some, like Doc’s, obsessive), they could not debunk one single thing on my resume, nor find even a shred of evidence to discredit me.

And could anyone find a shred of evidence to support it?
The word of someone within the MLM business means nothing, nada, nowt.
It is no one's job to debunk you. You are making claims, verify them.
As a long time card carrying member of the JREF, you will fully understand the burden of proof.

Originally Posted by MWave

I’m an open book.

A book of fairy stories it would seem.

[MWave]

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

There are most certainly rules here about derailing threads, whch you should be aware of, having read the Membership Agreement before you started posting.

In any case, I have a feeling that the error of your ways will be pointed out to you soon enough.

But all I'm doing is responding to the off topic post aimed directly at me, by name.

So, all those attacking me with off topic posts will have this pointed out to them as well, right?

Len

[Live&Learn]

Originally Posted by MWave

For the record, I’m stating here in no uncertain terms, no matter what assistance I ever get from this forum (should I ever get it), I absolutely WILL NOT mention JREF or any aspect of it, in any way, anywhere within anything related to this study.

Now just imagine how much fun you can have with this post if I do

Len

You've already provided more fun than should be legal on a Saturday night.

When will you start testing your magic wand? You do own one, right?

[Hokulele]

Originally Posted by MWave

As I suspected.

Your first link goes to a post about a test that surely you know I can't possibly duplicate, right? This was a suggestion to one individual. How, exactly, am I suppose to get a wand - a $300 wand! - to numerous people who might or might not suffer insomnia in the future? Am I suppose to go to their homes and randomly switch the wand every night? How do I obtain a wand that looks exactly like the real wand? And what, exactly, is insomnia? Is it 2 hours of sleep? One hour? No sleep? A certain number of hours less than the person's normal sleep cycle? How am I suppose to monitor each of these people throughout the night? I could go on, but surely you don't really believe this is a response to my original question, right?

The second link is simply a pain test using a placebo, which I clearly stated, in my original post and in my last response to you, I already had covered and needed no help with. Yet, in your desperation to find two links, you included it anyway.

Want to try again? Please find two posts that describe a type of test that I can reasonably be expected to actually perform, that does not involve pain, how something tastes, or a kinesthetic trick. You boldly and confidently stated, twice now, that the first ten pages of this thread were loaded with them. I'm only asking for two.

Failing that, I'd prefer just one apology.

Len

Ah, the hand-waving begins.

You do not know how to contact sleep research centers? If you are a highly admired consumer protection advocate, surely there are academic and/or research centers that would be more than happy to assist you in your laudable goals of protecting the public, no?

You do not understand the difference between the placebo effect and demonstrating an awareness of the wand in general (hint, the person involved would simply have to be able to tell the difference between stick and not-stick)?

Fail.

[Mike!]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I

Anybody remember that on-and-off SNL sketch, during the "news" segment, where John Belushi would start off calmly discussing something, then gradually talk himself into a foam-at-the-mouth frenzy and top it off by falling off his chair?

For some reason that sketch keeps running through my mind here.

Too funny! I remember it well, and you are not alone!
This is more fun than a comedy club!

[Live&Learn]

Originally Posted by Sledge

The Amega Wand seems to have an incredible power to draw drive-by woos to a thread.

Hmm. Good point. I just checked Google. This thread is now number 8 for Amega wand.

This thread might actually help people avoid getting scammed. Keep up the good work.

[Olowkow]

Originally Posted by MWave

So, how does admitting to your ignorance and prejudice justify it? You admit your assumption was “silly”,...

Nope, the prospect of your getting JREF involved was silly, not my assumption. This is clear to me from what I wrote. See, this is why you became a chew toy Len. Folks are going to run back to see what I wrote, and think, "Hmm, he's being nasty for no reason".

I can only speak for myself, but I had no idea what MLM meant or who you were when you first posted. My radar told me that something was not quite right. Your posts were somehow those of a "fast talking salesman" who was unable to understand he was barging into someone's home flailing about with wild notions that were not new to his listeners. Proclaiming the obvious with a sense of discovery. We have all heard it many many times before.

I am not justifying anything, just explaining. I am pretty sure now that my initial sense of the scheme was not quite on target, sorry about that, but I made it clear at the time that I was guessing. I am leaning more towards Akhenaten's analysis, because I have found no connection between you and Amega, but I'm not even sure of his. I have absolutely no reason for any prejudice against you, but I will confess that I don't admire the MLM racket now that I have read extensively about them.

Quote:

...Your reaction was completely baseless. In stead of coming into a forum of what I thought were like-minded skeptics and fellow JREF supporters who would be more that willing to assist me in exposing a fraud, it was more like I wandered into the wrong part of town and the local gang members decided to beat the crap out of me, just for their own amusement. JREF should be ashamed of this board, or of at least this thread.

Yeah, well some of us beat up on the OP too, and I for one admit I was wrong. The "sticks" are poison to any reasonable discussion. Anyone presupposing the usefulness of a stick to cure pain, and asking for help in proving that it doesn't (debunking), becomes suspect. I was convinced poor "alawaiman" was possibly a shill, but it turns out he was not. Just took a stroll on the "rifle range" on the wrong day. "moneca.ca" was in fact a shill (among others), and I believed ol' Len was a possible for a while, since it seemed you were taking us for idiots, but I don't think so any more. Frankly, I don't know for sure what you had in mind when you first posted. One thing is clear, if you really had anything other than a kind of mock outrage about the sticks, you would have read the first pages of the thread, and researched the MDC threads which clearly tell over and over again how to construct a double blind test. If you read some of the applications, you would better understand how you came across appearing like one of the applicants....agenda, illogical, obsessed.

"Ashamed", no, I think most of us are very proud of this thread. True, you got the crap beaten out of you because many of us sense that you tried to con us. It was predictable that you would eventually lose your temper and blame everyone for not accepting your con. This thread has put Amega scam almost up to number 1 in Google, and Yoli is on its way. I would think we should be proud.

Quote:

You ASSUMED who I was, and what my agenda was, based on nothing more than my association with the MLM industry. ..

Not me. I was just going on your insistence that the stick had to be proven ineffective, when no one was claiming that it was effective. Something did not ring true to me.

Quote:

I’ve already said I really think it’s a fraud, and then I said I really, really think it’s a fraud, and all my reasons for believing this. Should I try really, really, really? It’s not a rhetorical question, Olowkow. What would you like me to say?

Len

Well, apart from your calling us names, and misreading much of what we wrote, and just being pretty silly for a new poster, you really haven't done much to annoy me, so I say no harm no foul. I have had a lot of fun researching all this stuff.

What I do find odd is that it seems to me that all these "trolls, haters, and bad guys" seem to show up here or on the other forums, and I wind up liking and believing them, because they support their point of view with evidence. You need to understand that a lot people who post here are not as impressed with pure swagger and swingdickery as perhaps you may be accustomed to. Few of us are impressed with name calling, IQ points, income, possessions, or "credentials" as a trusted this or that. Arguments from authority don't hack it here. It's a much subtler thing that garners respect.

So when you come here wanting to "debate", I suspect most will just say, meh, what for? Most of us consider this a hobby, not an obsession.

What would I like you to say? Not a fair question. Say whatever you want. I don't think a video "proving that the wand is ineffective" is going to do any good. People who really want to believe will believe and buy them anyway. It's the salesmen who know the whole thing is a scam who need to confront the potential harm they are causing.

Oh, many of us are in fact retired, unemployed, employed with one of them there new fangled computers available, on vacation, or maybe a MLMer with a big downline (or whatever it's called). Don't worry. Be well.

[Elizabeth I]

Quote:

swingdickery

I have learned more cool words here...

[Emet]

Originally Posted by MWave

Sounds like you would be a great candidate to accept my challenge.

It would be just you and I on a recorded conference call, debating the legitimacy of the MLM industry.

Yes or no?

Len

My mother taught I me never to talk to strange...ers.

[Live&Learn]

Originally Posted by MWave

<snip>

Now he’s calling me “Bruce” for some unknown reason.

Len

It's a compliment. Look up Lenny Bruce. He was a comedic giant. So are you, in your own special way.

[Emet]

Originally Posted by Live&Learn

...Lenny Bruce.

i read 'How to Talk Dirty and Influence People' decades ago.

[Olowkow]

Originally Posted by MWave

I’m oddly flattered that discrediting me in some way was this important to you (the whole afternoon? Really?).

A Blast Cap sells for $2.49, or $1.99 in bulk. Show me the link where it’s being sold on Amazon for $7.16 and I’ll report it and have the listing removed.

And of course your search only resulted in distributor websites. Like all MLM companies, you can only order the product through distributors. And all “GoYoli.com” distributor sites have product ordering capabilities.

Len

P.S. Is this board moderated at all? Are there any rules against hijacking threads and posting off topic remarks? Or is it pretty much a free-for-all?

Nah don't be flattered. It was not about you. I found DocBunkum, Fastmoney, Live&Learn and others just full of information. And learned a lot of the politics of the game.

Burn 'em down dude! $7.16 a bottle! I pay more for good beer, but anyway.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...e&sprefix=yoli

Quote:

P.S. Is this board moderated at all?

You're kidding right? I recommend losing the potty language.

[HitchensIsGod]

Originally Posted by MWave

The logic you’re using here reminds me of the story of the small child who was throwing star fish back into the ocean after hundreds had washed ashore. A man walks by and says to the boy, “Look around you, son. There are hundreds of these star fish that are going to die. Do you really think you’re making a difference?”. The boy reaches down, throws another star fish into the water, then looks up to the man and says, “It made a big difference to that one.”

Len

Gaaaaag. A fairytale worthy of Tilton, Popoff, W.V. Grant, Roberts (Oral & Topical), Bakker, Swaggart, Falwell and the rest. I dare say most people in America have heard that one repeatedly... many from the lying lips of those listed just priot to the tearful plea to "plant a seed of faith" by making a "love offering."

Nice parable to justify your "each one, save one" mission. The problem there are tens of thousands of "independent business owner" starfish that are washed ashore, eaten alive or left to rot in the sun by countless abusive MLM's. We can only hope that one day you'll see the light and stop being a tool for the MLM owners...HALLELUJAH!!!!!

Where is your support of meaningful legislative reform and regulatory oversight --not the laughably toothless "code of ethics" of the DSA-- that will clean up this scammy industry and protect all those little starfish who get tossed on the rocks to die?

(see, I can paint a sappy picture too. I need a tissue Tito )

[Stray Cat]

Originally Posted by HitchensIsGod

I need a tissue Tito )

[HitchensIsGod]

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Don't be flattered, I found DocBunkum, Fastmoney, and others just full of information. And learned a lot of the politics of the game.

Burn 'em down dude! $7.16 a bottle! I pay more for good beer, but anyway.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...e&sprefix=yoli


You're kidding right? I recommend losing the potty language.

Oh man... be prepared to get spanked by "Lenny the legal hair-splitter." Note that he said "A Blast Cap sells for $2.49, or $1.99 in bulk." The Amazon ad is for the "bottle." See...ya gots ta have da bottle to do any blastin' (you gotta provide your own water).

Even so, further down they're selling "Truth Citrus Health Blast Caps by Yoli - 12 Blast Caps" for $38.88... a bit over $3 per blast so I think ya got him.
http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Citrus-H...=pd_sim_misc_1

But hey... look at all you get for your money!

http://www.blastcapsdrink.com/blog/w...ngredients.gif



Or wait... is it this???

http://www.mlmreviewkings.com/images...tion-label.jpg

Are they making this up as they go?

Edited by LashL:

Removed hotlinked images. Please see Rule 5.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by MWave

The second link is simply a pain test using a placebo, which I clearly stated, in my original post and in my last response to you, I already had covered and needed no help with.

When you say "original post" do you mean #271, #771, or some other post?

[Audible Click]

Originally Posted by MWave

Another dodge.

I said I came onto this board to seek help in exposing the wand, not to promote it. Audible Click suggested I’m being disingenuous (yes, I bought those Verbal Advantage CDs, too). I then asked him if, in his mind, it makes more sense to him that I came onto a board controlled by the James Randi Foundation, which surely would be filled with devout skeptics who would be vehemently and viciously against the wand, to promote the wand? That is, as opposed to the explanation I gave that is far more logical and reasonable.

And I’m still waiting for a direct and specific answer to my direct and specific question.

While you’re out there on Google, look up “Occam's razor”.

Len

Link to the quote where I suggested you were disingenuous. I did say "We don't believe you". I personally, think you came to this forum with an agenda and that agenda was to try and get the skeptics on this forum to agree with you that the stick is a fraud because that makes you look good to anyone who Googles this thread, and we know that your reputation has been a bit tarnished recently. It's rather comical because you're not only beating a dead horse, you're beating the horse trailer too. It was a moot point way before you posted here. The stick is a scam and we know it's a scam. (If you need clarification, that's my direct answer to your question.) BTW I'm not a "he" I'm a "she".

Originally Posted by MWave

I’m oddly flattered that discrediting me in some way was this important to you (the whole afternoon? Really?).

A Blast Cap sells for $2.49, or $1.99 in bulk. Show me the link where it’s being sold on Amazon for $7.16 and I’ll report it and have the listing removed.

And of course your search only resulted in distributor websites. Like all MLM companies, you can only order the product through distributors. And all “GoYoli.com” distributor sites have product ordering capabilities.

Len

P.S. Is this board moderated at all? Are there any rules against hijacking threads and posting off topic remarks? Or is it pretty much a free-for-all?

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Nah don't be flattered. It was not about you. I found DocBunkum, Fastmoney, Live&Learn and others just full of information. And learned a lot of the politics of the game.

Burn 'em down dude! $7.16 a bottle! I pay more for good beer, but anyway.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...e&sprefix=yoli

You're kidding right? I recommend losing the potty language.

Olowkow has provided you with a link so lets see if you manage to get the listing removed.

[Toke]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Ah, the hand-waving begins.

You do not know how to contact sleep research centers? If you are a highly admired consumer protection advocate, surely there are academic and/or research centers that would be more than happy to assist you in your laudable goals of protecting the public, no?

You do not understand the difference between the placebo effect and demonstrating an awareness of the wand in general (hint, the person involved would simply have to be able to tell the difference between stick and not-stick)?

Fail.

I think the problem here is about how well it would look on a youtube video.
Sleep research sound like it would look pretty boring.

Mwave,
As a card carrying Jref-member it should be no problem for you to debunk Yoli and some of the other nutritional wonder-juices instead.

It looks far more relevant to me, as the wands mentioned on this tread is already pretty much done for.

You do have access to Yoli products, right?

[Toke]

Originally Posted by HitchensIsGod

Are they making this up as they go?

Could be, there are different values for vitamin c content, and I am not sure how many of the ingredients have a real daily value recommendation.

[Doc Bunkum]

Originally Posted by MWave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Bunkum:

The moderator on the "MLM Scams Forum (as if any of them aren't)" section of Quatloos! is a well respected trial lawyer by the name of wserra. If anyone can seperate the facts from the woo, it would be a lawyer.

As I sure you are painfully aware of, Clements.

You've taken wserra on on a number of times and been made to look the fool each instance. I love how he dissected your claim to be a "court certified expert witness" and actually looked into your contribution to the trials you participated in.

Guess you haven’t seen my response yet

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/view...&sd=a&start=40

Len

Oh, I saw your response all right.

Did you see Wes' response to your response?

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/view...tart=40#p96612

[dlorde]

Entertaining thread

It appears that the OP arrived at this arch-skeptics forum asking for help debunking a magic stick. Since then, he's received a few suggestions, but mostly has been surprised and hurt by just how skeptical this forum is - we're skeptical of the stick, the apparent quest to debunk it, the questor, his business, and our own skepticism. Having amused and insulted most of the forum, he now wants to abandon the forum format (his original choice) for live debating, where he feels he'll have some sort of advantage - use of verbal dexterity, emotion, less time to think, no time to research or provide verifiable sources. Seems to me he should have approached a debating society rather than a forum...

Part of the problem here is that there is an awful lot of woo in the world, and we can't test it all. Rigorous testing takes time, effort, money, and (often) subjects. So we have to be selective and assess which are the most convincing, plausible, and testable claims and give them priority. Claims about ghosts, crystals, magic beans, magic wands, etc., tend to sink to the bottom of the credibility heap on initial assessment, so typically only the most rudimentary tests (e.g. the lemon test) are justifiable.

The OP complains that the wand tests that have been suggested so far for the claims are not practical, but I'm sure that if he presents some practically testable claims, we can suggest some practical protocols to test them.

Otherwise, these forums provide a good resource of test approaches and protocols, and the OP says he's already got a selection of practical tests devised, so why doesn't he go and do these tests, then return with full details of the protocols and the test results, so we can discuss whether the claims have been adequately refuted. I'm sure there are plenty of members here who can give advice on protocols for those tests.

[Live&Learn]

Originally Posted by chadwick

hitchensisgod,

No it is sold as a 1up, not an mlm (basically after someone buys it you get the commission and it's over). But it really wouldn't matter. The structure of MLM is not bad as long as a company is selling a legitimate product and not lying about what it actually can do. There's no ethical difference between selling something in a store for commission or through a network marketing platform for the same thing..., but of course, the devil is in the details and it's always important for the person to know what they are getting into. I'm not endorsing any particular mlm but it's incorrect to take a blatant assault on all programs simply because there are a lot of bad ones.

Please tell us about the 1up. How does that help, or hurt, the sales of magic sticks?

Also, isn't the Amega wand being sold through MLM? When I checked Google for Amega wand MLM this thread is ranked number 5 out of 414,000 results. There seems to be a connection between the magic stick and MLM.

[Akhenaten]

I think if I was one of the purveyors of Teh Stick™ who thought trying it out on the JREFFers would be a good idea, I'd be just a tad disappointed with the way things have panned out.

The JREF Forum might be a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but I'd say we can safely remove 'MLM Business Opportunity' from the list.


Mwahahahahahaha!

[Olowkow]

Originally Posted by HitchensIsGod

Oh man... be prepared to get spanked by "Lenny the legal hair-splitter." Note that he said "A Blast Cap sells for $2.49, or $1.99 in bulk." The Amazon ad is for the "bottle." See...ya gots ta have da bottle to do any blastin' (you gotta provide your own water).

Yikes! By jove, you're right. I humbly stand corrected, though I originally did say "a bottle of Yoli". I saw the yellow stuff in the bottle picture and figured it included a cap. So it costs me $9.65 plus shipping, I guess, just to try this. Must be a very fancy bottle. I'll stick to "La Fin du Monde" , my favorite beer.

[KDLadage]

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

The JREF Forum might be a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but I'd say we can safely remove 'MLM Business Opportunity' from the list.

Perfectly said.

[Porkchop Express]

Originally Posted by MWave

There are only three reasons you hold this position about MLM:

1) You tried it and failed at it;
2) Someone told you it was bad and you chose to adopt their opinion as your own;
3) You assume this is the way it is after “reading up” on it, but only reading the anti-MLM propaganda published by anti-MLM zealots like Robert FitzPatrick and Jon Taylor.

And the first time I was introduced to MLM, I had the exact same opinion!

However, unlike you, I chose not to allow other people to do my thinking for me. I decided to form my own opinion, based on my own investigation, which included researching both sides of the story. Of course the prosecution is going to always win if you never even hear from the defense. What I discovered was an industry that, yes, had way too many scammers marketing way too many goofy, overpriced products, and way too many good people naively and ignorantly following them. I also discovered they were the minority, but were only the ones we ever heard about. I discovered things like the American Home Journal segment in Amway (1997, I believe) where over 200 hours of hidden camera footage hit the cutting room floor – but one 10 second sound bite of an idiot on stage claiming he’d rather leave his wife and children than Amway, that made it on the air! Once I started to strip away all the crap, and discounted both extremes (those who were both pro- and anti- MLM zealots) and investigated what was actually happening in this business, and how the model actually worked, I discovered there was both a good side and a bad side to MLM.

If you fall in either category #2 or #3 above, you are just as much a victim of deception as those unethical pro-MLM zealots.

Len

Way to assume that I did not bother to read two opposite ends of the spectrum (mlm.com and scam.com) to form my opinion. Based on what I read, what you quoted is my opinion.

Perhaps a number 4 should be added to your list?

4. Someone who stumbled upon this thread, and in turn starting reading from both sides, and came to conclusion that your industry is:

a) get rich quick scheme at best (based on many MLMers non-loyalty to one company for more than 1-2 years) and

b) a disguised pyramid pay plan scheme, at worst.

Now if you will excuse me, I must leave before I get yelled at for derailment.

(if you'll notice, I am beginning to hate both sides of this argument)

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by dlorde

Entertaining thread

It appears that the OP arrived at this arch-skeptics forum asking for help debunking a magic stick. Since then, he's received a few suggestions, but mostly has been surprised and hurt by just how skeptical this forum is - we're skeptical of the stick, the apparent quest to debunk it, the questor, his business, and our own skepticism. Having amused and insulted most of the forum, he now wants to abandon the forum format (his original choice) for live debating, where he feels he'll have some sort of advantage - use of verbal dexterity, emotion, less time to think, no time to research or provide verifiable sources. Seems to me he should have approached a debating society rather than a forum...

Slight correction, Len (poster name MWave) is not the opening poster. He started posting around page 7.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by MWave

and you have the TRUTH on your side, with myriad facts to support your position, surely that would at least level the playing field – wouldn’t it?

I have not yet formed an opinion of MLM or the other products being discussed, but I do want to echo dlorde's point that "having the TRUTH on your side" most assuredly does not level the playing field. The strongest evidence I can present is the large number of creationist/evolutionist debates in which the creationist audience does not walk away believing any part of evolution despite there being mountains of facts supporting the truth of evolution.

Quote:

You won’t have hours, or days, to confer with others and scour the internet in search of some face saving little nit you can cherry pick. I could go on, but of course a verbal debate is superior to a written one. Yet, in spite of the obvious folly in suggesting otherwise, I’m sure someone will now make the attempt anyway.

I find it fascinating that you claim that having time to research the accuracy of claims is a flaw

[Toke]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I find it fascinating that you claim that having time to research the accuracy of claims is a flaw

I think it is one of those freudian slips.

I am also quite impressed that you can be bothered to sort through his lengthy non-answers.

[HitchensIsGod]

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Yikes! By jove, you're right. I humbly stand corrected, though I originally did say "a bottle of Yoli". I saw the yellow stuff in the bottle picture and figured it included a cap. So it costs me $9.65 plus shipping, I guess, just to try this. Must be a very fancy bottle. I'll stick to "La Fin du Monde" , my favorite beer.

You must be verrrry careful when doing battle with "Mr Mensa."

http://transformingmlm.typepad.com/p...ments150_3.jpg

Edited by LashL:

Removed hotlinked image. Please see Rule 5.

[MWave]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Ah, the hand-waving begins.

You do not know how to contact sleep research centers? If you are a highly admired consumer protection advocate, surely there are academic and/or research centers that would be more than happy to assist you in your laudable goals of protecting the public, no?

I see. Getting a research center to acquire several dozen wands, at $300 a pop, to conduct a long term sleep study for me, in your mind, satisfies my request for a reasonable and practical testing protocol that I personally can perform? Got it.

Originally Posted by Hokulele

You do not understand the difference between the placebo effect and demonstrating an awareness of the wand in general (hint, the person involved would simply have to be able to tell the difference between stick and not-stick)?

Fail.

You boldly and confidently stated that several such testing protocols had already been presented within the first ten pages of this thread. I asked you to provide only two.

You provided NONE.

You failed.

Len

[MWave]

Bruce (Live&Learn),

Are you going to respond to either of the challenges I posted against you? Once again...

You are all over the MLM.com board claiming you are looking for an MLM opportunity to join and asking for recommendations. You recently claimed Send Out Cards was the one that intrigues you the most. Which board members - here or on MLM.com - are you lying to?

You also claimed countless times on Scam.com and MLM.com, and insinuated here, that you came onto the Yoli thread at Scam.com sincerely looking for feedback about the taste of Yoli’s product. You claim I then immediately started attacking you for no reason. Why do you keep posting this lie knowing full well I’m going to follow it with this:

http://208.86.2.42/showpost.php?p=841017&postcount=824

To everyone else on this board, this link above and a simple search of L&L's posts on MLM.com clearly reveal he is being deliberately deceptive. I’ve just provided evidence he is outright lying to you. Why does he get a free pass?

My theory: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Len

[Hokulele]

Originally Posted by MWave

I see. Getting a research center to acquire several dozen wands, at $300 a pop, to conduct a long term sleep study for me, in your mind, satisfies my request for a reasonable and practical testing protocol that I personally can perform? Got it.

Ah, so you don't want to do any serious testing of the product. Got it.

Quote:

You boldly and confidently stated that several such testing protocols had already been presented within the first ten pages of this thread. I asked you to provide only two.

You provided NONE.

You failed.

Len

Your inability to review the tests as previously discussed to see which elements can be incorporated with your ideas is not my problem. You asked for assistance in designing a test, but aren't willing to explore answers that were given. You challenged me to provide references, which I did, and promptly moved the goalposts.

Continued fail.

[Toke]

Are you accusing Live&Learn of being a variation on 419-baiter, or from another MLM trying to scare your "customers" away?


BTW: There is a new tread specifically for discussing the merits of MLM.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=177273

[dlorde]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Slight correction, Len (poster name MWave) is not the opening poster. He started posting around page 7.

Oops, my bad - read 'MWave' for 'OP' throughout - makes little difference...

[Stray Cat]

I'm really bored with the MLM turf war thing...
I wish I could just wave a magic wand over it and make it all go away to the thread which has been opened for it...

[Toke]

Originally Posted by Stray Cat

I'm really bored with the MLM turf war thing...
I wish I could just wave a magic wand over it and make it all go away to the thread which has been opened for it...

Interesting that you say wand.
Have you heard of this wonderfu....

[MWave]

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Nope, the prospect of your getting JREF involved was silly, not my assumption. This is clear to me from what I wrote. See, this is why you became a chew toy Len. Folks are going to run back to see what I wrote, and think, "Hmm, he's being nasty for no reason".

You comment was succinct and unambiguous:

"I sensed that you were trying to get JREF to become associated with the sticks, and then somehow Am3ga would benefit just by association, a silly prospect but this is how it can work in the world of MLM's." (emphasis mine)

You just clearly stated that your theory as to my motives - that I was "trying to get JREF to become associated with the sticks" so "Am3ga would benefit just by association", if true, was "silly". I agree. In fact, I think it is completely absurd. However, the motive I openly described in my first post makes perfect, logical sense. If I wanted assistance in devising protocols for tests I could perform on a pseudo-science device, how would I have ever known that the JREF message board was the wrong place to go for such assistance?

Originally Posted by Olowkow

I can only speak for myself, but I had no idea what MLM meant or who you were when you first posted. My radar told me that something was not quite right. Your posts were somehow those of a "fast talking salesman" who was unable to understand he was barging into someone's home flailing about with wild notions that were not new to his listeners. Proclaiming the obvious with a sense of discovery. We have all heard it many many times before.

Comments like that are what causes me to feel like I've entered some kind of twilight zone. I appreciate that my demeanor is subjective (although your description of it baffles me), but the fact that, after all that I've said, you somehow STILL believe I came here to somehow educate or inform any of you, as opposed to seeking your assistance in how I might better inform others, is just... amazing.

Originally Posted by Olowkow

I am not justifying anything, just explaining. I am pretty sure now that my initial sense of the scheme was not quite on target, sorry about that, but I made it clear at the time that I was guessing.

I see. So you attacked me based on your "guess" as to what my agenda was. Is this some tacit form of contrition, or do you actually consider this justification?

Originally Posted by Olowkow

I am leaning more towards Akhenaten's analysis, because I have found no connection between you and Amega, but I'm not even sure of his.

But... not only is there not the slightest shred of evidence, anywhere, that I'm even remotely connected to Amega in a positive, supportive, or promotional way, I've have unequivocally expressed my position on their wand as being identical to all of yours! How could you possibly not be sure of this?

The only thing I've ever said that even remotely might have come across as supportive was my early comment that I will perform my tests in the most objective manner (i.e. with the minimum amount of "researcher bias" as possible), and will report my findings regardless of what the outcome is, pro or con. That is, if the wand is actually shown to have some kind of positive effect, in some way, I will not suppress this data just because it is counter to by current position. How could anyone possibly object to that? That's just a matter of simple, basic ethics. It certainly doesn't in any way suggest that I actually expect a positive result to occur. That is clear, yes?

Originally Posted by Olowkow

I have absolutely no reason for any prejudice against you, but I will confess that I don't admire the MLM racket now that I have read extensively about them.

I'm curious, what have you read about MLM? What sources did you rely on? Objective, balanced sources, or only anti-MLM sources?

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Yeah, well some of us beat up on the OP too, and I for one admit I was wrong. The "sticks" are poison to any reasonable discussion. Anyone presupposing the usefulness of a stick to cure pain, and asking for help in proving that it doesn't (debunking), becomes suspect.

I see. So, this makes James Randi suspect...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOsCn...eature=related

And most applicable: http://tinyurl.com/33p3cxm

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Frankly, I don't know for sure what you had in mind when you first posted.

How about what I said I had in mind? I'm still completely bewildered as to how my stated intentions are so suspect, in spite of the reason and logic behind them, and all your alternative theories are "silly", or just outright nonsensical, but those theories are what you're all going with.

Originally Posted by Olowkow

One thing is clear, if you really had anything other than a kind of mock outrage about the sticks, you would have read the first pages of the thread, and researched the MDC threads which clearly tell over and over again how to construct a double blind test.

For the tenth time, I already know how to construct a double blind test! You obviously are an intelligent person with a keen reading comprehension, so I have no choice but to believe you are commenting on my agenda here without even reading most of my comments!

Originally Posted by Olowkow

"Ashamed", no, I think most of us are very proud of this thread. True, you got the crap beaten out of you because many of us sense that you tried to con us. It was predictable that you would eventually lose your temper and blame everyone for not accepting your con.

First you offer a vague apology ("sorry about that"), then state you "have found no connection between you and Amega", then claim "I don't know for sure what you had in mind when you first posted", and now we're all the way back to "my con". If that's why I lost my temper, as you just stated, then present your evidence that I'm perpetrating a con! I've presented to you and this board a mountain of evidence to the contrary - such as my explicit denouncement of the wand itself - and no one here has presented anything to contradict it.

I eventually lost my temper and blamed everyone here for being prejudice, unreasonable bigots (the alternate words I'd really like to use in post #305, if there was not a poorly employed time limit on the editing function). Again, Occum's Razor. It's just as simple and obvious as that.

Originally Posted by Olowkow

This thread has put Amega scam almost up to number 1 in Google, and Yoli is on its way. I would think we should be proud.

But why? You all seem to be of the opinion that any information discrediting the wand is worthless and impotent. Is it or isn't it?

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Not me. I was just going on your insistence that the stick had to be proven ineffective, when no one was claiming that it was effective. Something did not ring true to me.

Again, these comments are just bizarre in the face of all that I've said. What could possibly have caused you to believe that I came here to demonstrate the wand's ineffectiveness to YOU? Seriously, are you reading anything I'm writing about my motive and agenda before commenting on my motive and agenda?

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Well, apart from your calling us names, and misreading much of what we wrote, and just being pretty silly for a new poster, you really haven't done much to annoy me, so I say no harm no foul. I have had a lot of fun researching all this stuff.

And here's the sad part. There are two or three posters here, you being one of them, that I likely have a lot in common with, especially dealing with skepticism, anti-quackery, and likely, I suspect, even religion. But you sure don't make friends by breaking all the fingers of the hand they extended.

Originally Posted by Olowkow

You need to understand that a lot people who post here are not as impressed with pure swagger and swingdickery as perhaps you may be accustomed to. Few of us are impressed with name calling, IQ points, income, possessions, or "credentials" as a trusted this or that. Arguments from authority don't hack it here. It's a much subtler thing that garners respect.

The name calling was regretful, and I apologized in an earlier post (although I'm standing my prejudice, unreasonable bigots because the terms are used literally, not pejoratively). Besides that I have NEVER cited my IQ here - an internet troll did. I NEVER cited my income or possessions - an internet troll did. I only cited my credentials in my introductory post because, well, I was introducing myself! I wanted to establish right up front that I was not a shill, that I was anti-wand, and that we were on the same side! I am fully aware that no one outside of the MLM industry knows who I am cares two cents about me. That's precisely why I introduced myself in the manner that I did!

Originally Posted by Olowkow

So when you come here wanting to "debate", I suspect most will just say, meh, what for? Most of us consider this a hobby, not an obsession.

I want to debate live because everything gets resolved all at once, in one place. Here I am one vs. 10, and at least 3 of my antagonists are clearly not posting here as a hobby - it appears to be a full time occupation. Because I am only human, there are only 24 hours in a day, and I actually have a life outside this message board, there will inevitably be a point where it will be physically impossible for me to respond to each and every post directed to me, which will be followed by the inevitable "Len isn't responding because he knows he's been busted", or "Len is gone because he got his ass kicked", or some such self ego gratifying explanation.

Then, when I challenge anyone to come out of hiding (or, Hell, stay hidden in the shadows, I don't care) and debate me live on the exact same issues we are discussing here - not one single taker. They will post all day and night in response to what I write, sometimes into the multiple hundreds of responses over a period of months, but when I want to debate them live it turns to, "meh, what for?". Only after I make this challenge do I, and this debate, suddenly have no importance to anyone.

No one will debate me because you know you can't. You have no actual case.

Len

[KDLadage]

I will not debate you. And it has nothing to do with what case I have.

Sorry.

[MWave]

Originally Posted by KDLadage

I will not debate you. And it has nothing to do with what case I have.

Sorry.

Then why not?

Len