Could ghosts actually be a life form?

[Cainkane1]

Watching Ghost Hunters and other ghost hunting programs one fact has always intrigued me. Batterys go dead and unopened packs of batteries arte found to be dead when opened. Supposedly this is because ghosts use this type of energy to exist.

Ok would this be scientifically possible? Could a living thing made up of energy live and reproduce and develope a type of intelligence? If so then these creatures would not be the souls of the dead but a life form.

Ghost behaviour seems similar to an animal protecting its space in much the same way as a cave bear would resist intrusion by humans. Even the Casper type stories could be explained by the fact that many species of animals enjoy the company of human beings.

The programs are probably hogwash but has anyone else ever suggested this?

[Stray Cat]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

The programs are probably hogwash but has anyone else ever suggested this?

Probably?

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

The programs are probably hogwash but has anyone else ever suggested this?

The writers of Star Trek used to suggest it about 10 shows a year.

[Jack by the hedge]

I wonder what ghosts ate before batteries were invented.

[Cainkane1]

Originally Posted by Bob Klase

The writers of Star Trek used to suggest it about 10 shows a year.

Thats true but has there been any reality based scientific discussions on this possibility?

[Denver]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Watching Ghost Hunters and other ghost hunting programs one fact has always intrigued me. Batterys go dead and unopened packs of batteries arte found to be dead when opened...

Are you sure this is the case, and not because these are entertainment programs, with no clear process or controls around battery or equipment management?

Quote:

Supposedly this is because ghosts use this type of energy to exist...
Ghost behaviour seems similar to an animal protecting its space...

I think it would be better to actually find believable evidence that ghosts exist before trying to explain their behavior.

[Jack by the hedge]

Surely a reality based scientific discussion would not start by considering what ghosts are or what they eat, but by considering whether they exist at all. Then they would probably stop and wait patiently for any scrap of worthwhile evidence to emerge.

[Stray Cat]

The 'batteries going dead' thing is simply confirmation bias in operation.

When you get batteries out and they work, there's nothing of note to remember.

[Alley Cat]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Watching Ghost Hunters and other ghost hunting programs

I'm sorry for being slow here, but what exactly is this discussion about?

Is it about "Could ghosts actually be a life form?"

or is it about ridiculous television programs where "ghosts" eat batteries?

[Cainkane1]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

I wonder what ghosts ate before batteries were invented.

If you read historical ghost stories many sightings were made during times of thunder and lightening. If there is anything to so called ghosts there are more ghosts now than at any other time in human history.

Consuming battery energy might be like a primiitive man eating chocolate cake for the first time.

Incidentally lets keep the discussions light. I fully realise that scientists roll their eyes and when they say anything at all they describe paranormal activity as nothing more than superstition and overall bullcrap. They are probably right. Very possibly absolutely right.

I also realise that Mr. James Randi has successfully debunked every haunting he has ever investigated. However ghost sightings persist and there has to be some reason why people keep reporting these things. Mr. Randi has suggested the presence of carbon monoxide in a house may induce hallucinations.

I personally saw a "ghost" in my house but my doctor explained that when we are bored our minds start a form of self entertainment. Hence the souurce of my sighting.

[CurtC]

Oh, come on, folks. The OP was meant to be a thinking exercise, not an attempt to demonstrate that this type of life exists.

Cankane1, you're asking whether "energy" could exist independently of a physical material to contain it? I don't see how - energy is a property of material stuff. You can have material at a high energy state, but that energy is not itself something. As far as we know anyway.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

If you read historical ghost stories many sightings were made during times of thunder and lightening.

Thunderstorms (particularly at night) are scary and put people on edge. It wouldn't surprise me if people were more inclined to imagine they see stuff when they're tired and frightened in the dark.

Quote:

If there is anything to so called ghosts there are more ghosts now than at any other time in human history.

How do you measure that?

[aggle-rithm]

Originally Posted by Bob Klase

The writers of Star Trek used to suggest it about 10 shows a year.

I've brought this up recently in another thread. In the "Physics of Star Trek", Lawrence Krauss said that a life-form made up of energy would have its sense of time infinitely dilated, so that the entire history of the universe would pass by instantly from its perspective. Even if it were possible, there's no way such a life-form could interact with the natural world.

And its probably not possible. How would intelligence exist where there is no time? How can an intelligent thought go from inception to completion when there is no "before" and "after"? The concept itself is hopelessly flawed to the point of being meaningless.

[KingMerv00]

Could ghosts actually be...

No.

[Stray Cat]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

How do you measure that?

Not with a battery operated device

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by CurtC

Oh, come on, folks. The OP was meant to be a thinking exercise, not an attempt to demonstrate that this type of life exists.

OK, fair enough.

For anything like a being we'd regard as "alive" to exist, then I suppose one of the fundamental things it would need to have is some form of complex structure. I don't see a way to build or maintain such a structure in energy (electromagnetic or whatever?) without the influence of matter.

Getting onto how such a hypothetical entity could "eat" the energy stored in a battery, that's even more mysterious. The battery produces a small potential difference between its contacts, and will supply a good stream of electrons if the ghost can find some way to transport them from one terminal to the other. The ghost somehow does this, and extracts useful energy in the process. Any clues about how any of that's supposed to happen?

[Safe-Keeper]

Well... computers run on electricity, so I suppose you could have an entity move around and replenish its energy from batteries. Bigger question would probably be how it would get the energy out of the batteries, through the closed packaging.

ETA: Ah, I see Jack beat me to it.

[Sledge]

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

I've brought this up recently in another thread. In the "Physics of Star Trek", Lawrence Krauss said that a life-form made up of energy would have its sense of time infinitely dilated, so that the entire history of the universe would pass by instantly from its perspective. Even if it were possible, there's no way such a life-form could interact with the natural world.

That was kinda what DS9 was going for with the Prophets/wormhole aliens. Although they kinda forgot the "we cannot understand linear time" thing by the end of the show, when it turned out Sisko was made by them. Bah.

[The Drain]

Another theory about repeated ghost reportings is infrasound. This is from the Skeptic's Dictionary.

Quote:

Infrasound refers to extreme bass waves or vibrations, those with a frequency below the audibility range of the human ear (20 Hz to 22 kHz). Even though these waves can't be heard by us, they can be felt and have been shown to produce a range of effects in some people including anxiety, extreme sorrow, and chills.
<snip>
Psychologist Richard Wiseman of the University of Hertfordshire thinks that the odd sensations that people attribute to ghosts may be caused by infrasonic vibrations.*
<snip>
Infrasound may be produced by wind, by some types of earthquakes, by ocean waves, and by such things as avalanches, volcanoes, and meteors

If it is infrasound, then this might explain why the long corridoors in old houses are so often 'haunted' during storms. And also often in the same physical place.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

I've brought this up recently in another thread. In the "Physics of Star Trek"...

Remember that episode in "Next Generation" where #1 and some woman were ghosts on the Enterprise? They could walk through walls but how come they weren't sucked through the floor by whatever artificial gravity device the ship uses? Huh? Yeah, what does that guy who wrote the book say about this? How come when the ship goes to warp everyone ins't flattened against the wall. How come there aren't daily riots outside the holodeck concerning whose turn it is? (You know there would be and no one would be using that 1930's nightclub program when there were sex programs to be had.)

This whole "The Physics of Ghosts" bothers me. How can a ghost propel themself if they can't use friction? They must have some sort of mass if gravity is to effect them or ghosts would just be flying off the planet (from our terrestrial point of view) willy nilly as they came into existence.

I need someone to define the physics of ghosts before I can take their existence seriously.

[Safe-Keeper]

Actually, I read somewhere that infrasound is a myth. Don't remember where, though :/ .

[rorylee]

Ghosts kinda suggests a Matrix style living to me. You not apart of the world, but you can interact with it. Certainly enough interest in it around the world, even a job to some.

[Sunsneezer]

Battery estimation in cameras or otherwise is always a bit flakey with or without ghosts.
Also, Brian forgetting to charge the batteries and blaming the ghosts sounds like something that has a lot of chance of happening.
The electro-magnetic ghost ensemble of theory is based on recognizing patterns in amplified noise captured with misused instruments.

<bunk>
In the spirit of keeping it light and just for the guilty pleasure of speculation, I'd add that Ghost hunting would be a very efficient way of becoming insane if ghosts were real. I like to think of ghosts as restricted to the spiritual realm. If you see one, it's not through your senses but into your consciousness. If they existed, they'd be basically indistinguishable from hallucinations and absolutely impossible to physically prove, thus making the active search for them as futile as mentally hazardous.
</bunk>

[Ririon]

Originally Posted by Bob Klase

The writers of Star Trek used to suggest it about 10 shows a year.

Which is all very nice. But if you have a living "entity" (isn't that Star Trek lingo) that is all energy and not matter... And is not associated with any particular matter... Then you just have radiation, don't you? Waves/photons traveling at the speed of light. Not very useful for staying in an old building to scare people. Not to mention how hard it is for you to get evolution going enough to be called a life form in the first place.

[Fnord]

There are no such things as ghosts. People that believe that ghosts are real are either delusional, ignorant or non compos mentis. Any so-called 'evidence' for the existence of ghosts is either non-existent, deliberately faked or irrelevant to the claim.

However, show me a ghost, in a face-to-face meeting with me, and I will believe.

No pictures, videos, anecdotes or fallacious reasoning, please.

[rorylee]

Originally Posted by Fnord

There are no such things as ghosts. People that believe that ghosts are real are either delusional, ignorant or non compos mentis. Any so-called 'evidence' for the existence of ghosts is either non-existent, deliberately faked or irrelevant to the claim.

However, show me a ghost, in a face-to-face meeting with me, and I will believe.

No pictures, videos, anecdotes or fallacious reasoning, please.

Yep seeing is believing. Say you saw it face to face and you became an instant believer and for example said it on JREF, you would get ridiculed. Just like the others who have currently seen and believed.

[JohnG]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

If you read historical ghost stories many sightings were made during times of thunder and lightening.

A thunderstorm can occur at any time of day but I'm betting that these storm related ghost sightings invariably happened at night. In other words, I'm betting thunder/lightning isn't the common thread/factor in ghost sightings. Many people are afraid of the dark (or at least extremely wary of it) and millions of years worth of evading nocturnal predators tells them that there is some justification for that fear.

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Thunderstorms (particularly at night) are scary and put people on edge. It wouldn't surprise me if people were more inclined to imagine they see stuff when they're tired and frightened in the dark.

That and the perhaps more subtle aspect of lightning flashes messing with a person's night vision, thereby causing them to see things that aren't really there or mistake a commonplace object for something more mysterious?

I used to believe in ghosts and even visited cemeteries at night and attempted to capture EVP with my tape recorder. I get why people are thrilled/frightened/comforted by the belief in ghosts, but there really isn't any compelling evidence I'm aware of that supports that belief, despite what those clueless baseball cap wearing cretins waving their stud finders around and whispering "what the hell was that?!" might tell you.

[Cainkane1]

Originally Posted by Stray Cat

The 'batteries going dead' thing is simply confirmation bias in operation.

When you get batteries out and they work, there's nothing of note to remember.

That depends on what the batteries are powering. Tee hee.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by rorylee

Yep seeing is believing. Say you saw it face to face and you became an instant believer and for example said it on JREF, you would get ridiculed. Just like the others who have currently seen and believed.

So why is it that on these stupid ghost shows they always have a "witness" who claims to have seen a ghost in perfect human form with hair and clothing and facial features, but when these yahoos go mucking about in the dark with their cameras the best they can ever come up with is a vague wispy smudge?

Steve S

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

I wonder what ghosts ate before batteries were invented.

Lightning and dreams.

[dudalb]

I want these guy's opinions:

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Ok would this be scientifically possible? Could a living thing made up of energy live and reproduce and develope a type of intelligence? If so then these creatures would not be the souls of the dead but a life form.

Only if you completely discard the scientific meaning of "life".

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

... scientists roll their eyes and when they say anything at all they describe paranormal activity as nothing more than superstition and overall bullcrap. They are probably right. Very possibly absolutely right.

I just can't help myself. I have to correct errors.

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Watching Ghost Hunters and other ghost hunting programs one fact has always intrigued me. Batterys go dead and unopened packs of batteries arte found to be dead when opened. Supposedly this is because ghosts use this type of energy to exist.
...

.
On our tour of the Queen Mary's "Ghost and Legends" yesterday, I took a few photos before we got to the tour.
When we down in the bowels of the boat into the spectral apparition areas, my camera wouldn't take any pictures!
"Battery Exhausted" on the LCD.
Yeah, right.*
Didn't get any photos of the ghosts in the swimming pool, or the power room, or "Half-Hatch Harry" with -that- camera.
The camera on my cell phone worked just fine, as did the cameras of other people on the tour.
*The batteries did recover enough for a couple flash photos in the engine room.
They do that.

[MattusMaximus]

*Puts physics professor hat on*

Seeing as how matter is just a form of energy (via good ol' E=mc²) and all known life forms are made up of matter, therefore all known life forms are also made up of energy.

Thus, the OP is moot, except to say that ghosts are a bunch of hooey

[Soapy Sam]

I did rather like the "ghosting" effect in the Dr.Who episode "The Library"- the personal electronics a person carried were so closely linked to the brain as to keep the consciousness operating for a minute or so after the person was organically dead.
That was rather spooky.

[JoeyDonuts]

They may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato.

[Stray Cat]

While looking through the back pages of Squid Fishing Monthly, I came across an ad for this new innovation from Duracell, obviously designed to cash in on the "my batteries went flat so I couldn't photograph the poltergeist" phenomenon.

On the face of it, it looks like a good idea for any dedicated ghost hunter to stock up on them, I look forward to seeing some positive results.



PS: Sorry, but they closed the UFO thread.

[rorylee]

Originally Posted by steve s

So why is it that on these stupid ghost shows they always have a "witness" who claims to have seen a ghost in perfect human form with hair and clothing and facial features, but when these yahoos go mucking about in the dark with their cameras the best they can ever come up with is a vague wispy smudge?

Steve S

First thought on the question - from what we know about ghosts in general from stories n so on. We know they can 'SEE' you.

Now if i was a ghost and could see you with a camera walking around, i wouldn't want to be caught on tape just as a thief doesn't. Though people might get lucky now n again and who knows ghosts could be telepathic as well.

[The Fallen Serpent]

Originally Posted by rorylee

First thought on the question - from what we know about ghosts in general we know they can 'SEE' you. some have faith in their existence and some are not convinced by the lack of empirical evidence. There is overlap between the two groups.

If "we" meant humanity in general my correction is more accurate. If "we" meant a subset you need to specify which subset as "we" within a skeptics forum will generally refer to skeptics unless stated otherwise.