A beer a day keeps the doctor away

Shane Costello · 10th January 2003, 05:21 AM

Seriously, it does!

www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993249

Frequent moderate intake, rather than the occasional binge, is the key, in case anyone was about to make up for lost time in a big way over the weekend!

Michael Redman · 10th January 2003, 06:47 AM

I'm keeping several doctors away.

garys_2k · 10th January 2003, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Redman
I'm keeping several doctors away.

I seem to remember this same thing from a few years ago, but the anti-alcohol people really got upset about it.

Shane Costello · 10th January 2003, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by garys_2k:

Quote:

I seem to remember this same thing from a few years ago, but the anti-alcohol people really got upset about it

That's because we'll bury the lot of 'em!

malaka · 10th January 2003, 07:38 AM

I've been making up for the 1st 21 years of my life. Thats 7,665 beers I need to consume! Better get crackin...

10th January 2003, 07:41 AM

I have a few jars every day... it makes me feel good and it puts wholesome beery goodness in my Q~zone...

Wile E. Coyote · 10th January 2003, 10:55 AM

I would bet that most people stop reading before they get to the warning at the end of the article. For that matter, most people probably stop reading right after the title.

The synopsis is : if heart disease is not your preferred way to go, this may be the method for you.

Personally, I think I would take death by heart attack over the slow, painful death associated with liver ailments.

Michael Redman · 10th January 2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tjwojo
Personally, I think I would take death by heart attack over the slow, painful death associated with liver ailments.

That's a false choice. There's no evidence that one or two drinks a day will lead to aterminal liver ailment.

10th January 2003, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Redman
That's a false choice. There's no evidence that one or two drinks a day will lead to aterminal liver ailment.

Tell that to every male member of my family who has died in the past 18 years. Oh, wait, you can't. Because they died from aterminal liver ailment and they drank once or twice a day.

Wile E. Coyote · 10th January 2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Redman
That's a false choice. There's no evidence that one or two drinks a day will lead to aterminal liver ailment.

The study showed that 1/2 a drink of alcohol every other day seems to be the most beneficial. As you say, this amount is certainly not significant enough to cause serious health problems. One or two a day for an extended period of time could put a little strain on the liver and brain.

I have learned to take medical studies, as such, with a grain of salt. Too many factors are involved in such studies to prove one way or another whether the end effect is actually a result of the focus of the study.

If you want to do it, then do it. Too many people use these kinds of findings as a way to justify their habits.

garys_2k · 10th January 2003, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thr0n

Tell that to every male member of my family who has died in the past 18 years. Oh, wait, you can't. Because they died from aterminal liver ailment and they drank once or twice a day.

THAT is not scientifically derived evidence of a link, sir. AFAIK, there is no EVIDENCE of a link between moderate drinking and liver disease, but of course, some individuals may be more sensitive or may have had a condition that would have lead to this disease whether they drank moderately, or not.

In any case, posting anecdotal accounts of an apparant link on a skeptics site is bound to raise a response. My sympathy to you and your family, though.

10th January 2003, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by garys_2k

THAT is not scientifically derived evidence of a link, sir. AFAIK, there is no EVIDENCE of a link between moderate drinking and liver disease, but of course, some individuals may be more sensitive or may have had a condition that would have lead to this disease whether they drank moderately, or not.

In any case, posting anecdotal accounts of an apparant link on a skeptics site is bound to raise a response. My sympathy to you and your family, though.

Never claimed it was scientifically derived evidence. But nearly every instance of liver disease I've encountered in my personal experience has been a product of lifelong moderate drinking. Whether "medical studies" prove a link one way or the other, I think it's within my reasoning power to deduce a connection. I'm a skeptic, too, remember. But that's no reason for me to reject anything but what has been proven through scientific studies.

roger · 10th January 2003, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thr0n
Never claimed it was scientifically derived evidence. But nearly every instance of liver disease I've encountered in my personal experience has been a product of lifelong moderate drinking. Whether "medical studies" prove a link one way or the other, I think it's within my reasoning power to deduce a connection. I'm a skeptic, too, remember. But that's no reason for me to reject anything but what has been proven through scientific studies.

On that basis I can point out that everyone I know who had died drank moderately or worse, yet none died of liver disease. Thus I deduce no connection.

Actually, my first thought when I read your post is that there might be a genetic component to it, since you mention that it's every male member in you family.

I really have no idea whether moderate drinking caused liver failure in your family or not, but we can't decide these issues through anecdote.

10th January 2003, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by roger

On that basis I can point out that everyone I know who had died drank moderately or worse, yet none died of liver disease. Thus I deduce no connection.

Of course you will find no connection. My point, however, is that from the same information you cannot deduce that there isn't a connection. Just because studies have been inconclusive is no reason to utterly deny a link between moderate drinking and liver disease.

This is generally why, when such a link is found, the cause is termed a "risk" -- the actual impact of certain habits varies from person to person. At this point, though I have observed what I consider to be a very real connection, you may not have. This probably will not change, even after studies conclusively demonstrate the connection.

Our definitions of 'moderate' may also differ.

Whatever the case, I am convinced that drinking and not coincidence is responsible for the cases of liver disease that I have observed. Thus, I tend to avoid alcohol and promote sobriety.

Soapy Sam · 10th January 2003, 02:18 PM

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absinthe?

10th January 2003, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absinthe?

That's a pretty horrid pun. But I laughed at it anyway. ^_^

And no, that's not what I'm saying. I have observed what I consider to be evidence. My claim is not baseless -- the evidence is simply yet to be universally recognized. That, or I am wrong. But there are no studies that currently demonstrate the impossibility of a link between moderate drinking and liver disease. And really, if such a link were proven, it shouldn't come as a shock.

jj · 10th January 2003, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absinthe?

Hunh?

What were we talking about? I forgot!

Shane Costello · 10th January 2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Thr0n:

Quote:

Tell that to every male member of my family who has died in the past 18 years. Oh, wait, you can't. Because they died from aterminal liver ailment and they drank once or twice a day.

If what you say is true then it's highly suggestive of a severe congenital defect, which may be exacerbated by even a moderate intake of alcohol. It's similar to adverse drug response.

Genetic basis of adverse drug response

More about pharmacogenomics....

.....and the genetic basis of disease

Originally posted by tjwojo:

Quote:

I have learned to take medical studies, as such, with a grain of salt. Too many factors are involved in such studies to prove one way or another whether the end effect is actually a result of the focus of the study

True, but in the case of the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption, we have an impressive test population in 60 million or so wine loving French.

The French Paradox

"The study may help explain the controversial "French paradox," the apparent lower rates of heart disease and some cancers among the French, despite a typical national diet high in fat.

Compared to other nationalities in Europe, the French eat more beef, cheese, butter and other artery-clogging foods. But they also drink more wine, and researchers have speculated that certain compounds in grapes and grape products like wine offer some kind of protection from the negative effects of the high-fat diet."

Of course the principle of moderation extends to everything we eat and drink, not just alcohol. If you gorge on greens and vegtables you'll end up with a condition known as hypervitaminosis. IIRC the symptoms of this closely resemble the adverse effects of heavy alcohol consumption i.e. headaches, projectile vomiting and loss of mobility.

arcticpenguin · 10th January 2003, 04:07 PM

I try not to pay any attention to the health/diet of the month "news" articles. Most of them are done by comparing different populations of people and it is impossible to control variables, and very difficult to account for the uncontrolled variables.

garys_2k · 10th January 2003, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I try not to pay any attention to the health/diet of the month "news" articles. Most of them are done by comparing different populations of people and it is impossible to control variables, and very difficult to account for the uncontrolled variables.

Granted, but alcohol has been studied over and over again, and is just about ALWAYS included in longitudinal general health studies (i.e. the long term nurses' health study), and there are tons of data out there. Moderate drinking is NOT a risk factor for liver disease, for otherwise "normal" people.

I don't dispute that some people that drink moderately will contract liver disease, nor that liver disease could run more frequently in some families, nor that in these families alcohol may be a factor in that disease. But, for the population as a whole, the moderate use of alcohol has not been shown to increase that risk. While I am not trying to minimize ThOrn's personal familial experience, the evidence is quite clear that that was an anomaly.

10th January 2003, 08:54 PM

Shane Costello: Interesting, but mine is not the only family with this problem. I can cite isolated cases of adults who suffer from the same problem, even with heavy drinkers in their family who are virtually unaffected. I'm sure it has something to do with individual body chemistry; perhaps (or likely) some genetics. In any case, this demonstrates the risk associated with moderate drinking. It may not be as compelling as the evidence linking tobacco to lung cancer, but it's something, at least.

neutrino_cannon · 10th January 2003, 09:24 PM

I wonder if this works in other primates. If so, could this possibly be evolutionary origins for alcoholism?

Conjectural:

If apes have somewhat lower incidence of heart ailments with intake of alchohol, might they they evolve to have a craving for the stuff. The only conceivable way apes could get alcohol is from over-ripe fruit (I doubt that they could eat the really rotten stuff), which would be rare enough that they would never evolve any moderation instincts.

Just a thought.

Shane Costello · 11th January 2003, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by Thr0n:

Quote:

Shane Costello: Interesting, but mine is not the only family with this problem. I can cite isolated cases of adults who suffer from the same problem, even with heavy drinkers in their family who are virtually unaffected. I'm sure it has something to do with individual body chemistry; perhaps (or likely) some genetics.

True, but the important word here is "isolated". I could cite a few few isolated cases of centenarians who are lifelong smokers.

Quote:

In any case, this demonstrates the risk associated with moderate drinking.

Absolutely not, IMO, no more than a few isolated cases of lifelong smokers living to an advanced old age demonstrates that smoking is harmless.

11th January 2003, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Absolutely not, IMO, no more than a few isolated cases of lifelong smokers living to an advanced old age demonstrates that smoking is harmless.

Am I to understand that you actually believe this, or are you simply pointing out a flaw in my logic? I'm not saying that this demonstrates that moderate drinking presents a universal threat. I'm saying that it is possible that one's chemistry/genes allows a threat to their health -- which means, in turn, that there is a risk.

Shane Costello · 11th January 2003, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by Thr0n:

Quote:

Am I to understand that you actually believe this, or are you simply pointing out a flaw in my logic?

I've no problem with either your logic or reasoning, just how you chose to articulate it. Earlier you spoke of the risk associated with moderate drinking, which suggested to me at any rate you believed that moderate drinking was harmful to most people. Your last post shows that this wasn't the case, however.

shanek · 11th January 2003, 09:31 AM

"I'm not drunk, ossifer—I'm healthy!"

garys_2k · 11th January 2003, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thr0n

I'm not saying that this demonstrates that moderate drinking presents a universal threat. I'm saying that it is possible that one's chemistry/genes allows a threat to their health -- which means, in turn, that there is a risk.

OK, for the "one's" who's body chemistry is sensitive to moderated drinking, yes, it would be a health risk. But that cannot be extrapolated to a general pronouncement about moderate drinking to the population as a whole, where no such risk has been demonstrated to a statisitically significant level.

kittynh · 11th January 2003, 07:47 PM

Does this go for grape juice? My alcoholic cousin, who hasn't had a drink in 15 years is always serving grape juice, and claiming it's just as good as alcohol for heart benefits (but perhaps is not quite as much for for the rest of us....).

GreyWanderer · 11th January 2003, 09:44 PM

I'm 19, and I've stayed away from alcohol so far.

Does this mean I should start drinking? (;

Shane Costello · 12th January 2003, 03:53 AM

Originally posted by kittynh:

Quote:

Does this go for grape juice?

Possibly. The study on French heart disease rates suggests that compounds in grapes and grape products provide the beneficial effects.

Originally posted by GreyWanderer:

Quote:

I'm 19, and I've stayed away from alcohol so far.

Does this mean I should start drinking? (;

Stick to the cod-liver oil and you should be OK.

Reginald · 12th January 2003, 04:41 AM

25 beers a day and who care if the doctor turns up or not.

Ove · 13th January 2003, 04:53 AM

Quote:

I'm 19, and I've stayed away from alcohol so far.

Does this mean I should start drinking

With my knowledge of Norwegian prices on Alcohol, definitely NO but if you wan't to get poor in a young age then by all means do. I can recommend a brew from "Aass bryggeri" in Drammen called "Bayer". It is IMHO the closest you'll get to heavenly nectar allthough i must admit it was quite a chock for me to discover that the Norwegians actually COULD make anything other than "Hjemmebrændt"

I must add for the foreigners that home destillation is, a national sport in Norway. Norway is the only place i've seen yeast sold in 5kg packages. A statistician once calcullated that if all the yeast sold in Norway was used for baking bread then you could wipe out world hunger.

27th January 2003, 05:14 PM

Sorry for jumping in this late.
Alcohol (read:ethanol) is a toxin, it's that simple. When we drink alcohol we experience a poisoning, but fortunately the symptoms are usually pleasant and we gladly embrace the effects repeatedly. It is also a powerful toxin in the sense that the increase in dosage needed from intoxication to death is much smaller than in other types of poison, eg nicotine.
The body is prepared for it though, since alcohols are abundant in food, especially fruit (apples for instance are rich in methanol).
Though the liver's own alcohol dehydrogenase kicks in first, bear in mind that it is not the only organ to host that particular family of enzymes; they are quite abundant throughout the body and especially present in the lining of the stomach. The breakdown products are often more toxic than the alcohol itself: ethanol is turned into acetaldehyde (hangovers and trashed liver), methanol into formaldehyde (blindness and trashed liver) and once again we rely on the body's impressive depot of enzymes to destroy the breakdown products. When the experiments suggest that the body is capable of handling a long-term intake, it is based upon the average of the tested population. Not all people have equal levels of the enzymes, the distribution throughout the body may vary as may the enzymatic activity. Thus, some families can drink heavily throughout their lives with no consequence whereas other families cannot. The latter seems to be the unfortunate case in thrOn's family. The results are therefore not to be taken as a carte blanche to go on a constant binge, but as a general guideline in case you are uncertain of your genetic alcohol tolerance.
(plonk-plonk)

Soapy Sam · 27th January 2003, 06:23 PM

-"The only conceivable way apes could get alcohol is from over-ripe fruit "

..or, of course, by stealing it from humans. Which chimps, baboons and monkeys have all been known to do, given a chance. I've known a few heavy drinking dogs too and at least one mule. I suspect most mammals are partial to alcohol. At least the smarter ones.

xouper · 11th February 2004, 09:06 AM

bump

Michael Redman · 11th February 2004, 10:42 AM

Bump? That's all you got?

xouper · 11th February 2004, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Michael Redman: Bump? That's all you got?

Just preserving it from pruning for another six months, as per Hal Bidlack's instructions.

Michael Redman · 11th February 2004, 11:36 AM

It does remind me, though, how much I like beer.

Snide · 11th February 2004, 11:53 AM

Mmmmm.....beeeerrrr!!

(_8o(|)

Jon_in_london · 4th October 2005, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote

Personally, I think I would take death by heart attack over the slow, painful death associated with liver ailments.

This is why I make sure I smoke at least 40 cigarettes a day, along with my daily pints.......of rum.

10th January 2003, 05:21 AM	#1
Shane Costello Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,235	A beer a day keeps the doctor away Seriously, it does! www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993249 Frequent moderate intake, rather than the occasional binge, is the key, in case anyone was about to make up for lost time in a big way over the weekend!

10th January 2003, 06:47 AM	#2
Michael Redman Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 3,063	I'm keeping several doctors away.
	__________________ The rule is perfect; in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane. - Mark Twain

10th January 2003, 06:58 AM	#3
garys_2k Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 756	Quote: Originally posted by Michael Redman I'm keeping several doctors away. I seem to remember this same thing from a few years ago, but the anti-alcohol people really got upset about it.
garys_2k Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 756	__________________ - Gary

10th January 2003, 07:41 AM	#6
Guest Posts: n/a	I have a few jars every day... it makes me feel good and it puts wholesome beery goodness in my Q~zone...
Guest Posts: n/a

10th January 2003, 11:47 AM	#8
Michael Redman Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 3,063	Quote: Originally posted by tjwojo Personally, I think I would take death by heart attack over the slow, painful death associated with liver ailments. That's a false choice. There's no evidence that one or two drinks a day will lead to aterminal liver ailment.
	__________________ The rule is perfect; in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane. - Mark Twain

10th January 2003, 07:02 AM	#4
Shane Costello Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,235	Originally posted by garys_2k: Quote: I seem to remember this same thing from a few years ago, but the anti-alcohol people really got upset about it That's because we'll bury the lot of 'em!

10th January 2003, 07:38 AM	#5
malaka Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: columbus Posts: 1,164	I've been making up for the 1st 21 years of my life. Thats 7,665 beers I need to consume! Better get crackin...

10th January 2003, 10:55 AM	#7
Wile E. Coyote Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 342	I would bet that most people stop reading before they get to the warning at the end of the article. For that matter, most people probably stop reading right after the title. The synopsis is : if heart disease is not your preferred way to go, this may be the method for you. Personally, I think I would take death by heart attack over the slow, painful death associated with liver ailments.

10th January 2003, 12:29 PM	#9
Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Michael Redman That's a false choice. There's no evidence that one or two drinks a day will lead to aterminal liver ailment. Tell that to every male member of my family who has died in the past 18 years. Oh, wait, you can't. Because they died from aterminal liver ailment and they drank once or twice a day.
Guest Posts: n/a

10th January 2003, 12:36 PM	#10
Wile E. Coyote Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 342	Quote: Originally posted by Michael Redman That's a false choice. There's no evidence that one or two drinks a day will lead to aterminal liver ailment. The study showed that 1/2 a drink of alcohol every other day seems to be the most beneficial. As you say, this amount is certainly not significant enough to cause serious health problems. One or two a day for an extended period of time could put a little strain on the liver and brain. I have learned to take medical studies, as such, with a grain of salt. Too many factors are involved in such studies to prove one way or another whether the end effect is actually a result of the focus of the study. If you want to do it, then do it. Too many people use these kinds of findings as a way to justify their habits.

10th January 2003, 12:38 PM	#11
garys_2k Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 756	Quote: Originally posted by Thr0n Tell that to every male member of my family who has died in the past 18 years. Oh, wait, you can't. Because they died from aterminal liver ailment and they drank once or twice a day. THAT is not scientifically derived evidence of a link, sir. AFAIK, there is no EVIDENCE of a link between moderate drinking and liver disease, but of course, some individuals may be more sensitive or may have had a condition that would have lead to this disease whether they drank moderately, or not. In any case, posting anecdotal accounts of an apparant link on a skeptics site is bound to raise a response. My sympathy to you and your family, though.
garys_2k Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 756	__________________ - Gary

10th January 2003, 12:50 PM	#12
Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by garys_2k THAT is not scientifically derived evidence of a link, sir. AFAIK, there is no EVIDENCE of a link between moderate drinking and liver disease, but of course, some individuals may be more sensitive or may have had a condition that would have lead to this disease whether they drank moderately, or not. In any case, posting anecdotal accounts of an apparant link on a skeptics site is bound to raise a response. My sympathy to you and your family, though. Never claimed it was scientifically derived evidence. But nearly every instance of liver disease I've encountered in my personal experience has been a product of lifelong moderate drinking. Whether "medical studies" prove a link one way or the other, I think it's within my reasoning power to deduce a connection. I'm a skeptic, too, remember. But that's no reason for me to reject anything but what has been proven through scientific studies.
Guest Posts: n/a

10th January 2003, 12:57 PM	#13
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Quote: Originally posted by Thr0n Never claimed it was scientifically derived evidence. But nearly every instance of liver disease I've encountered in my personal experience has been a product of lifelong moderate drinking. Whether "medical studies" prove a link one way or the other, I think it's within my reasoning power to deduce a connection. I'm a skeptic, too, remember. But that's no reason for me to reject anything but what has been proven through scientific studies. On that basis I can point out that everyone I know who had died drank moderately or worse, yet none died of liver disease. Thus I deduce no connection. Actually, my first thought when I read your post is that there might be a genetic component to it, since you mention that it's every male member in you family. I really have no idea whether moderate drinking caused liver failure in your family or not, but we can't decide these issues through anecdote.

10th January 2003, 01:18 PM	#14
Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by roger On that basis I can point out that everyone I know who had died drank moderately or worse, yet none died of liver disease. Thus I deduce no connection. Of course you will find no connection. My point, however, is that from the same information you cannot deduce that there isn't a connection. Just because studies have been inconclusive is no reason to utterly deny a link between moderate drinking and liver disease. This is generally why, when such a link is found, the cause is termed a "risk" -- the actual impact of certain habits varies from person to person. At this point, though I have observed what I consider to be a very real connection, you may not have. This probably will not change, even after studies conclusively demonstrate the connection. Our definitions of 'moderate' may also differ. Whatever the case, I am convinced that drinking and not coincidence is responsible for the cases of liver disease that I have observed. Thus, I tend to avoid alcohol and promote sobriety.
Guest Posts: n/a

10th January 2003, 02:18 PM	#15
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Absence of evidence is not evidence of absinthe?
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

10th January 2003, 02:28 PM	#16
Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Soapy Sam Absence of evidence is not evidence of absinthe? That's a pretty horrid pun. But I laughed at it anyway. ^_^ And no, that's not what I'm saying. I have observed what I consider to be evidence. My claim is not baseless -- the evidence is simply yet to be universally recognized. That, or I am wrong. But there are no studies that currently demonstrate the impossibility of a link between moderate drinking and liver disease. And really, if such a link were proven, it shouldn't come as a shock.
Guest Posts: n/a

10th January 2003, 03:37 PM	#17
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,513	Quote: Originally posted by Soapy Sam Absence of evidence is not evidence of absinthe? Hunh? What were we talking about? I forgot!
	__________________ The Power to Quit

10th January 2003, 04:02 PM	#18
Shane Costello Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,235	Originally posted by Thr0n: Quote: Tell that to every male member of my family who has died in the past 18 years. Oh, wait, you can't. Because they died from aterminal liver ailment and they drank once or twice a day. If what you say is true then it's highly suggestive of a severe congenital defect, which may be exacerbated by even a moderate intake of alcohol. It's similar to adverse drug response. Genetic basis of adverse drug response More about pharmacogenomics.... .....and the genetic basis of disease Originally posted by tjwojo: Quote: I have learned to take medical studies, as such, with a grain of salt. Too many factors are involved in such studies to prove one way or another whether the end effect is actually a result of the focus of the study True, but in the case of the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption, we have an impressive test population in 60 million or so wine loving French. The French Paradox "The study may help explain the controversial "French paradox," the apparent lower rates of heart disease and some cancers among the French, despite a typical national diet high in fat. Compared to other nationalities in Europe, the French eat more beef, cheese, butter and other artery-clogging foods. But they also drink more wine, and researchers have speculated that certain compounds in grapes and grape products like wine offer some kind of protection from the negative effects of the high-fat diet." Of course the principle of moderation extends to everything we eat and drink, not just alcohol. If you gorge on greens and vegtables you'll end up with a condition known as hypervitaminosis. IIRC the symptoms of this closely resemble the adverse effects of heavy alcohol consumption i.e. headaches, projectile vomiting and loss of mobility.

10th January 2003, 04:07 PM	#19
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	I try not to pay any attention to the health/diet of the month "news" articles. Most of them are done by comparing different populations of people and it is impossible to control variables, and very difficult to account for the uncontrolled variables.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

10th January 2003, 07:52 PM	#20
garys_2k Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 756	Quote: Originally posted by arcticpenguin I try not to pay any attention to the health/diet of the month "news" articles. Most of them are done by comparing different populations of people and it is impossible to control variables, and very difficult to account for the uncontrolled variables. Granted, but alcohol has been studied over and over again, and is just about ALWAYS included in longitudinal general health studies (i.e. the long term nurses' health study), and there are tons of data out there. Moderate drinking is NOT a risk factor for liver disease, for otherwise "normal" people. I don't dispute that some people that drink moderately will contract liver disease, nor that liver disease could run more frequently in some families, nor that in these families alcohol may be a factor in that disease. But, for the population as a whole, the moderate use of alcohol has not been shown to increase that risk. While I am not trying to minimize ThOrn's personal familial experience, the evidence is quite clear that that was an anomaly.
garys_2k Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 756	__________________ - Gary

10th January 2003, 08:54 PM	#21
Guest Posts: n/a	Shane Costello: Interesting, but mine is not the only family with this problem. I can cite isolated cases of adults who suffer from the same problem, even with heavy drinkers in their family who are virtually unaffected. I'm sure it has something to do with individual body chemistry; perhaps (or likely) some genetics. In any case, this demonstrates the risk associated with moderate drinking. It may not be as compelling as the evidence linking tobacco to lung cancer, but it's something, at least.
Guest Posts: n/a

10th January 2003, 09:24 PM	#22
neutrino_cannon Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seventh circle of limbo Posts: 2,573	origins of alchholism? I wonder if this works in other primates. If so, could this possibly be evolutionary origins for alcoholism? Conjectural: If apes have somewhat lower incidence of heart ailments with intake of alchohol, might they they evolve to have a craving for the stuff. The only conceivable way apes could get alcohol is from over-ripe fruit (I doubt that they could eat the really rotten stuff), which would be rare enough that they would never evolve any moderation instincts. Just a thought.
	__________________ "Man would have been too happy, if, limiting himself to the visible objects which interested him, he had employed, to perfect his real sciences, his laws, his morals, his education, one half-the efforts he has put into his researches on the Divinity" -Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Necessity of Atheism

11th January 2003, 04:20 AM	#23
Shane Costello Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,235	Originally posted by Thr0n: Quote: Shane Costello: Interesting, but mine is not the only family with this problem. I can cite isolated cases of adults who suffer from the same problem, even with heavy drinkers in their family who are virtually unaffected. I'm sure it has something to do with individual body chemistry; perhaps (or likely) some genetics. True, but the important word here is "isolated". I could cite a few few isolated cases of centenarians who are lifelong smokers. Quote: In any case, this demonstrates the risk associated with moderate drinking. Absolutely not, IMO, no more than a few isolated cases of lifelong smokers living to an advanced old age demonstrates that smoking is harmless.

11th January 2003, 05:33 AM	#24
Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Shane Costello Absolutely not, IMO, no more than a few isolated cases of lifelong smokers living to an advanced old age demonstrates that smoking is harmless. Am I to understand that you actually believe this, or are you simply pointing out a flaw in my logic? I'm not saying that this demonstrates that moderate drinking presents a universal threat. I'm saying that it is possible that one's chemistry/genes allows a threat to their health -- which means, in turn, that there is a risk.
Guest Posts: n/a

11th January 2003, 08:40 AM	#25
Shane Costello Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,235	Originally posted by Thr0n: Quote: Am I to understand that you actually believe this, or are you simply pointing out a flaw in my logic? I've no problem with either your logic or reasoning, just how you chose to articulate it. Earlier you spoke of the risk associated with moderate drinking, which suggested to me at any rate you believed that moderate drinking was harmful to most people. Your last post shows that this wasn't the case, however.

11th January 2003, 09:31 AM	#26
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	"I'm not drunk, ossifer—I'm healthy!"
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

11th January 2003, 10:03 AM	#27
garys_2k Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 756	Quote: Originally posted by Thr0n I'm not saying that this demonstrates that moderate drinking presents a universal threat. I'm saying that it is possible that one's chemistry/genes allows a threat to their health -- which means, in turn, that there is a risk. OK, for the "one's" who's body chemistry is sensitive to moderated drinking, yes, it would be a health risk. But that cannot be extrapolated to a general pronouncement about moderate drinking to the population as a whole, where no such risk has been demonstrated to a statisitically significant level.
garys_2k Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 756	__________________ - Gary

11th January 2003, 07:47 PM	#28
kittynh The Hupsu Detective auctioneer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: If I told the aliens could find me, and you know they read this forum Posts: 22,707	how about grape juice? Does this go for grape juice? My alcoholic cousin, who hasn't had a drink in 15 years is always serving grape juice, and claiming it's just as good as alcohol for heart benefits (but perhaps is not quite as much for for the rest of us....).
	__________________ WWW.BADALIEN.ORG - not all the buttons work yet, and the science content is coming...but it's ALIVE!

11th January 2003, 09:44 PM	#29
GreyWanderer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 140	I'm 19, and I've stayed away from alcohol so far. Does this mean I should start drinking? (;
GreyWanderer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 140	__________________ "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord Of The Rings

12th January 2003, 03:53 AM	#30
Shane Costello Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,235	Originally posted by kittynh: Quote: Does this go for grape juice? Possibly. The study on French heart disease rates suggests that compounds in grapes and grape products provide the beneficial effects. Originally posted by GreyWanderer: Quote: I'm 19, and I've stayed away from alcohol so far. Does this mean I should start drinking? (; Stick to the cod-liver oil and you should be OK.

12th January 2003, 04:41 AM	#31
Reginald Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,641	25 beers a day and who care if the doctor turns up or not.
	__________________ No one's in the dark, no one's in the corner and no one's in the wardrobe just waiting to pounce.

13th January 2003, 04:53 AM	#32
Ove Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,886	Quote: I'm 19, and I've stayed away from alcohol so far. Does this mean I should start drinking With my knowledge of Norwegian prices on Alcohol, definitely NO but if you wan't to get poor in a young age then by all means do. I can recommend a brew from "Aass bryggeri" in Drammen called "Bayer". It is IMHO the closest you'll get to heavenly nectar allthough i must admit it was quite a chock for me to discover that the Norwegians actually COULD make anything other than "Hjemmebrændt" I must add for the foreigners that home destillation is, a national sport in Norway. Norway is the only place i've seen yeast sold in 5kg packages. A statistician once calcullated that if all the yeast sold in Norway was used for baking bread then you could wipe out world hunger.
	__________________ I am sitting here, completely surrounded by NO BEER..... (Onslow)

27th January 2003, 05:14 PM	#33
Tetrahymenix Guest Posts: n/a	Sorry for jumping in this late. Alcohol (read:ethanol) is a toxin, it's that simple. When we drink alcohol we experience a poisoning, but fortunately the symptoms are usually pleasant and we gladly embrace the effects repeatedly. It is also a powerful toxin in the sense that the increase in dosage needed from intoxication to death is much smaller than in other types of poison, eg nicotine. The body is prepared for it though, since alcohols are abundant in food, especially fruit (apples for instance are rich in methanol). Though the liver's own alcohol dehydrogenase kicks in first, bear in mind that it is not the only organ to host that particular family of enzymes; they are quite abundant throughout the body and especially present in the lining of the stomach. The breakdown products are often more toxic than the alcohol itself: ethanol is turned into acetaldehyde (hangovers and trashed liver), methanol into formaldehyde (blindness and trashed liver) and once again we rely on the body's impressive depot of enzymes to destroy the breakdown products. When the experiments suggest that the body is capable of handling a long-term intake, it is based upon the average of the tested population. Not all people have equal levels of the enzymes, the distribution throughout the body may vary as may the enzymatic activity. Thus, some families can drink heavily throughout their lives with no consequence whereas other families cannot. The latter seems to be the unfortunate case in thrOn's family. The results are therefore not to be taken as a carte blanche to go on a constant binge, but as a general guideline in case you are uncertain of your genetic alcohol tolerance. (plonk-plonk)
Tetrahymenix Guest Posts: n/a

27th January 2003, 06:23 PM	#34
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	-"The only conceivable way apes could get alcohol is from over-ripe fruit " ..or, of course, by stealing it from humans. Which chimps, baboons and monkeys have all been known to do, given a chance. I've known a few heavy drinking dogs too and at least one mule. I suspect most mammals are partial to alcohol. At least the smarter ones.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

11th February 2004, 09:06 AM	#35
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189	bump
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189