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Roadtoad · 8th March 2010, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

Well, we can add "treason" to the list that includes "terrorism" and "torture" as words that the hysterical right has tossed about with such reckless abandon that they no longer have any constructive meaning (perhaps they can be salvaged in a legal context).

Somehow the Ft. Hood guy is a terrorist but the IRS kamikaze attack isn't.

Jane Fonda and all liberals are treasonous (http://www.amazon.com/Treason-Libera.../dp/1400050308), but it's cool to circumvent long standing national and international law as long as you're legitimately pissing you pants over scary bearded men in caves. The Yoo memos tell us that it isn't torture unless it feels like your organs are failing, at least you can kind of argue that if you misread a statute about medicare...

Words, who needs em?

Well, some of us are rather fond of them.

And while I see your point regarding the Fort Hood coward as opposed to the IRS coward, the reality is that both were terrorists. Period. The goal was to inflict psychological harm.

And, no, it's NOT okay to circumvent the Geneva Convention, international law, or long standing tradition. It's just plain wrong.

And so is Gadahn. He's provided aid and comfort to the enemy, and his actions have been documented. Not much question that his actions amount to outright treason. Not Ann Coulter's version of it, but the real deal.

Just so you know: Some of us of a more conservative bent are far from hysterical. Some of us actually think your word should be your bond, and your actions should match your declarations. Some of us think it's wise to defend the nation, but in doing so, we should honor what the Founding Fathers had to say about international entanglements, and limited government.

I guess I'm just funny that way.

Roadtoad · 8th March 2010, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

Torture had a well-established legal definition with actual prosecutions of people engaged in the exact behavior that became de facto permissible.

With whom?

TraneWreck · 8th March 2010, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

With whom?

The world, the United States.

In 1983 Texas Sheriff James Parker and his deputies were convicted and sentenced to 10 years for water-boarding suspects to obtain convictions. There were court martials in 1903 and 1968 that dealt with waterboarding, and Japanese soldiers were prosecuted for the same after WWII.

I've heard folks complain that the Japanese cases should be distinguished because they did worse things in addition to waterboarding. Nevertheless, it was listed as a charge against them. If someone were charged with rape, murder, and theft under $500. Theft wouldn't be permissible because rape and murder were worse.

TraneWreck · 8th March 2010, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Just so you know: Some of us of a more conservative bent are far from hysterical. Some of us actually think your word should be your bond, and your actions should match your declarations. Some of us think it's wise to defend the nation, but in doing so, we should honor what the Founding Fathers had to say about international entanglements, and limited government.

I guess I'm just funny that way.

Yes, that's why I specified the hysterical right. Incidently, there's a big, loud, hsyterical left. See anti-vaccination/alt med nonsense.

I probably wasn't specific enough in my attacks.

Bill Thompson · 8th March 2010, 12:07 PM

I heard that the guy is not even an american. He is a brit.

rockinkt · 8th March 2010, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

I heard that the guy is not even an american. He is a brit.

That's a shooting offense right there...

dudalb · 8th March 2010, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

It seems they did catch an American Taliban, but a different one.

Regarding whether Adam Gadahn's actions qualify as treason, hell yes!

It's a textbook definition of the word.

Yeah, Gadahn's rants are a textbook example of treason. I agree the charge should not be made very often, but it seems pretty damn clear cut here.
He was guilty of treason the same way that Axis Sally, Tokyo Rose and Lord Haw Haw were during the Second World War..although only Haw Haw was executed. IMHO if he is captured the Governement will not ask for the death penalty but a prison sentence. Treason is punishable by death, but nothing requires the government to seek it. There are degrees, just as there are in any crime.

dudalb · 8th March 2010, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

Torture had a well-established legal definition with actual prosecutions of people engaged in the exact behavior that became de facto permissible.

Edit: and by the way, I agree with you that if the great white hope is ever actually captured, he should be charged with treason. Of course then we'd actually have to have a trial...

You seem to be very sympathic with Gadanh.

Roadtoad · 8th March 2010, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

You seem to be very sympathic with Gadanh.

Actually, I don't think he is. Why do you say this?

TraneWreck · 8th March 2010, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

You seem to be very sympathic with Gadanh.

Yeah, could you clarify before I respond, please? Is it the idea of the trial that makes me sympathetic?

GreNME · 8th March 2010, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

You seem to be very sympathic with Gadanh.

Are you being serious here?

Puppycow · 8th March 2010, 09:46 PM

A day since initial reports and it's still not clear who has been captured.

Some Pakistani sources are still insisting that it's Gadahn.

Polaris · 25th March 2010, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

What would you charge him with?

About 500,000 volts.

Marduk · 25th March 2010, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

Should John Walker Lindh have been tried for treason?

He fought for the Taliban against the Northern Alliance, as he wasn't a native Afghan and as the Northern Alliance isn't America I would ask
on what grounds did he do anything traitorous ?

Taarkin · 25th March 2010, 01:41 PM

How does the law define "enemy" wrt treason?

Aepervius · 25th March 2010, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

What would you charge him with?

Terrorism.

That is enough of a charge as far as I can tell.

Taarkin · 25th March 2010, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

If publicly urging attacks on your own country, publicly supporting people who want to attack your own country, and providing moral support for such people is not treason, then 1. nothing is, or 2. you're Jane Fonda

When did Jane Fonda publicly urge attacks on her own country or publicly support people who wanted to attack her own country?

geni · 25th March 2010, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

He was guilty of treason the same way that Axis Sally, Tokyo Rose and Lord Haw Haw were during the Second World War

Assuming by Lord Haw Haw you mean William Joyce then on a technicality and some seriously questionable evidence. He's not a good example of how a goverment should use treason charges. Apart from anything else he abandoned his american citizenship for german before america entered the war.

INRM · 25th March 2010, 05:59 PM

Why not just charge him with Treason? He gave aid and comfort to the enemy...

GreNME · 25th March 2010, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

He fought for the Taliban against the Northern Alliance, as he wasn't a native Afghan and as the Northern Alliance isn't America I would ask
on what grounds did he do anything traitorous ?

I was initially going by memory, but after verifying with this, your description falls a bit short of what actually happened. Dude copped to first working for bin Laden (in Ansar) and later to belonging to al Qaeda, as well as also being involved in the Mazar e Sharif prison break that resulted in Americans dying-- sure, he may not have pulled any triggers himself, but stating that his behavior couldn't be construed as traitorous is mistaken given what we know to have happened. The reason he was eventually plea-bargained down is because his lawyer and parents did a good job of humanizing him to the public with media appearances (pleas), and Lindh himself eventually agreed to cooperate with US intelligence in exchange for avoiding some of his laundry list of charges.

8th March 2010, 11:53 AM	#43
TraneWreck Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 6,414	Originally Posted by Roadtoad With whom? The world, the United States. In 1983 Texas Sheriff James Parker and his deputies were convicted and sentenced to 10 years for water-boarding suspects to obtain convictions. There were court martials in 1903 and 1968 that dealt with waterboarding, and Japanese soldiers were prosecuted for the same after WWII. I've heard folks complain that the Japanese cases should be distinguished because they did worse things in addition to waterboarding. Nevertheless, it was listed as a charge against them. If someone were charged with rape, murder, and theft under $500. Theft wouldn't be permissible because rape and murder were worse.
	Last edited by TraneWreck; 8th March 2010 at 12:13 PM.

8th March 2010, 12:29 PM	#46
rockinkt Muse Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 647	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson I heard that the guy is not even an american. He is a brit. That's a shooting offense right there...
rockinkt Muse Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 647	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

8th March 2010, 03:48 PM	#51
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by dudalb You seem to be very sympathic with Gadanh. Are you being serious here?
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

8th March 2010, 09:46 PM	#52
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 16,024	A day since initial reports and it's still not clear who has been captured. Some Pakistani sources are still insisting that it's Gadahn.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

25th March 2010, 12:47 PM	#53
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,215	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer What would you charge him with? About 500,000 volts.
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,215	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

8th March 2010, 11:33 AM	#41
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	Originally Posted by TraneWreck Well, we can add "treason" to the list that includes "terrorism" and "torture" as words that the hysterical right has tossed about with such reckless abandon that they no longer have any constructive meaning (perhaps they can be salvaged in a legal context). Somehow the Ft. Hood guy is a terrorist but the IRS kamikaze attack isn't. Jane Fonda and all liberals are treasonous (http://www.amazon.com/Treason-Libera.../dp/1400050308), but it's cool to circumvent long standing national and international law as long as you're legitimately pissing you pants over scary bearded men in caves. The Yoo memos tell us that it isn't torture unless it feels like your organs are failing, at least you can kind of argue that if you misread a statute about medicare... Words, who needs em? Well, some of us are rather fond of them. And while I see your point regarding the Fort Hood coward as opposed to the IRS coward, the reality is that both were terrorists. Period. The goal was to inflict psychological harm. And, no, it's NOT okay to circumvent the Geneva Convention, international law, or long standing tradition. It's just plain wrong. And so is Gadahn. He's provided aid and comfort to the enemy, and his actions have been documented. Not much question that his actions amount to outright treason. Not Ann Coulter's version of it, but the real deal. Just so you know: Some of us of a more conservative bent are far from hysterical. Some of us actually think your word should be your bond, and your actions should match your declarations. Some of us think it's wise to defend the nation, but in doing so, we should honor what the Founding Fathers had to say about international entanglements, and limited government. I guess I'm just funny that way.

8th March 2010, 11:35 AM	#42
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	Originally Posted by TraneWreck Torture had a well-established legal definition with actual prosecutions of people engaged in the exact behavior that became de facto permissible. With whom?

8th March 2010, 11:55 AM	#44
TraneWreck Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 6,414	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Just so you know: Some of us of a more conservative bent are far from hysterical. Some of us actually think your word should be your bond, and your actions should match your declarations. Some of us think it's wise to defend the nation, but in doing so, we should honor what the Founding Fathers had to say about international entanglements, and limited government. I guess I'm just funny that way. Yes, that's why I specified the hysterical right. Incidently, there's a big, loud, hsyterical left. See anti-vaccination/alt med nonsense. I probably wasn't specific enough in my attacks.

8th March 2010, 12:07 PM	#45
Bill Thompson Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington Posts: 6,176	I heard that the guy is not even an american. He is a brit.

8th March 2010, 01:18 PM	#47
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	Originally Posted by Puppycow It seems they did catch an American Taliban, but a different one. Regarding whether Adam Gadahn's actions qualify as treason, hell yes! It's a textbook definition of the word. Yeah, Gadahn's rants are a textbook example of treason. I agree the charge should not be made very often, but it seems pretty damn clear cut here. He was guilty of treason the same way that Axis Sally, Tokyo Rose and Lord Haw Haw were during the Second World War..although only Haw Haw was executed. IMHO if he is captured the Governement will not ask for the death penalty but a prison sentence. Treason is punishable by death, but nothing requires the government to seek it. There are degrees, just as there are in any crime.

8th March 2010, 01:20 PM	#48
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	Originally Posted by TraneWreck Torture had a well-established legal definition with actual prosecutions of people engaged in the exact behavior that became de facto permissible. Edit: and by the way, I agree with you that if the great white hope is ever actually captured, he should be charged with treason. Of course then we'd actually have to have a trial... You seem to be very sympathic with Gadanh.

8th March 2010, 01:33 PM	#49
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	Originally Posted by dudalb You seem to be very sympathic with Gadanh. Actually, I don't think he is. Why do you say this?

8th March 2010, 01:35 PM	#50
TraneWreck Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 6,414	Originally Posted by dudalb You seem to be very sympathic with Gadanh. Yeah, could you clarify before I respond, please? Is it the idea of the trial that makes me sympathetic?

25th March 2010, 12:58 PM	#54
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by GreNME Should John Walker Lindh have been tried for treason? He fought for the Taliban against the Northern Alliance, as he wasn't a native Afghan and as the Northern Alliance isn't America I would ask on what grounds did he do anything traitorous ?

25th March 2010, 01:41 PM	#55
Taarkin Strider Style Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of Heat and Clockwork Posts: 1,221	How does the law define "enemy" wrt treason?

25th March 2010, 01:43 PM	#56
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,889	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer What would you charge him with? Terrorism. That is enough of a charge as far as I can tell.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

25th March 2010, 02:03 PM	#57
Taarkin Strider Style Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of Heat and Clockwork Posts: 1,221	Originally Posted by rwguinn If publicly urging attacks on your own country, publicly supporting people who want to attack your own country, and providing moral support for such people is not treason, then 1. nothing is, or 2. you're Jane Fonda When did Jane Fonda publicly urge attacks on her own country or publicly support people who wanted to attack her own country?

25th March 2010, 02:58 PM	#58
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,642	Originally Posted by dudalb He was guilty of treason the same way that Axis Sally, Tokyo Rose and Lord Haw Haw were during the Second World War Assuming by Lord Haw Haw you mean William Joyce then on a technicality and some seriously questionable evidence. He's not a good example of how a goverment should use treason charges. Apart from anything else he abandoned his american citizenship for german before america entered the war.

25th March 2010, 05:59 PM	#59
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	Why not just charge him with Treason? He gave aid and comfort to the enemy...
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490

25th March 2010, 06:17 PM	#60
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by Marduk He fought for the Taliban against the Northern Alliance, as he wasn't a native Afghan and as the Northern Alliance isn't America I would ask on what grounds did he do anything traitorous ? I was initially going by memory, but after verifying with this, your description falls a bit short of what actually happened. Dude copped to first working for bin Laden (in Ansar) and later to belonging to al Qaeda, as well as also being involved in the Mazar e Sharif prison break that resulted in Americans dying-- sure, he may not have pulled any triggers himself, but stating that his behavior couldn't be construed as traitorous is mistaken given what we know to have happened. The reason he was eventually plea-bargained down is because his lawyer and parents did a good job of humanizing him to the public with media appearances (pleas), and Lindh himself eventually agreed to cooperate with US intelligence in exchange for avoiding some of his laundry list of charges.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}