Insults and critical thinking.

Dancing David · 14th March 2010, 07:01 AM

Hello,

Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all:

Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought?

Mirrorglass · 14th March 2010, 07:23 AM

I'm not entirely sure how broadly you are interpreting "insult" here, but I'll have a go.

I think sarcastic comments can be insulting, but also very valuable to discussion, since they can help people find flaws in their own arguments. Of course, this only works if the goal of the sarcasm is to offer new viewpoints to the argument, not to ridicule the target. I also think eliminating indirect insults, sarcasm and sneering isn't really possible.

As for direct insults, like calling the arguer, for example, an idiot or a nazi, really serves no purpose; it just further alienates the two opposing sides of an argument, making the whole discussion a fight between two sides instead of a common project to further understanding on the subject. This only makes it harder to promote the ideas of critical thinking to those who do not already embrace them, and help alienate people from what "critical thinking" really means.

Igopogo · 14th March 2010, 07:32 AM

Good question, as I find the use of insults often derails what could have otherwise been a useful discussion around here. You have to assume you're right to entitle yourself to put down someone else, so I would say that insults mainly get in the way of critical thought. I think it can be considered part of the logical fallacy called "poisoning the well".

!Kaggen · 14th March 2010, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Hello,

Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all:

Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought?

I don't think you can separate psychology from critical thinking.
Insults reveal the motives (emotional or willful) behind thoughts and if anything pointing this out can only lead to more critical thought.

Manopolus · 14th March 2010, 10:29 AM

I would say that insults can only promote critical thought in the form of humor. When it is truly more humorous than insulting, it actually defuses a situation that might otherwise become chronically divisive.

Trent Wray · 14th March 2010, 10:32 AM

Good thread

EventHorizon · 14th March 2010, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by trentwray

Good thread

I think the proper response should have been, "Good thread, moron".

JenseitsDavon · 14th March 2010, 11:37 AM

Good response, moron.

(It's a joke, it's a joke!)

Trent Wray · 14th March 2010, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by EventHorizon

I think the proper response should have been, "Good thread, moron".

I was waiting for my insult wingman ...

remirol · 14th March 2010, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought?

Strictly reading your question, the answer must be 'no'.

An insult is an attempt to introduce emotion into a discussion, and critical thinking is about logic, not emotion. While critical thinking must acknowledge that people are inherently irrational and emotional, and take this into account during any discussion regarding people's behavior, etc., an insult does nothing to support either side of the argument; it is no more than wasted words.

Now... that said, there is certainly a purpose for insults, mockery, and derision. All of these can be excellent persuasive tools, wielded correctly and by one competent in their use. But they have no bearing on the validity of the wielder's argument; their sole purpose is to bring onlookers over to the wielder's side (or provoke them into seriously considering the wielder's position) via an appeal to emotion.

Plus, so's yer mom.

remirol · 14th March 2010, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/insulting

in·sult (

n-s

lt

)v. in·sult·ed, in·sult·ing, in·sults
v.tr.1. a. To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness.
b. To affront or demean

Think of it this way, if it helps. Facts can do none of the above things. Critical thinking and conclusions derived thereof must be solely based on the facts. The presentation of those facts can be in an insulting manner, but the presence or absence of the insult changes the facts not at all.

...It can, however, change whether anyone hearing those facts chooses to listen.

Robin · 14th March 2010, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Hello,

Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all:

Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought?

No.

The Man · 14th March 2010, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Hello,

Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all:

Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought?

Insulting yourself to some degree perhaps can show that you are thinking critically about your own opinions and assertion.

Wait, if I wasn’t such a blithering idiot I would have never proposed such a ridiculous and baseless claim.

However, just outright insulting someone else without any other intent or purpose, as already noted by some of the other morons on this thread, basically just doesn’t have any other intent or purpose.

The problem also noted by some other Bozo here is the emotional response. Some people can’t detach themselves from an emotional response to a perceived or even intended insult and also perhaps infer just a perceived insult must be some emotional response on the part of others.

To some just questioning them or their notions is taken as an insult and I’m seriously offended that you would even think to malign my integrity by inferring that my insults somehow need to involve your crazy and outlandish “critical thought”.

Frank Newgent · 15th March 2010, 07:19 AM

If people only knew as much about crtitical thinking as the OP they'd never read this thread.

JFrankA · 15th March 2010, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Hello,

Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all:

Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought?

I'd say no as well. I try, though I don't always succeed, to not insult the other side.

In my opinion, insulting does nothing to further the discussion. Once you throw an insult to someone, (a serious one, not a playful one), you've introduced direct, personal emotion in the debate. The insult clouds the judgment of the receiver and only makes her or him more determined to stand their ground. It's the old "more flies with honey" thing.

Often, in my arguments, I use sarcasm, such as taking people's own words and reflecting it back to using my viewpoint, but that's not an insult, it's an illustration of how someone's opinion may work both ways. Attacking the opinion or debate is fine.

I've had long discussions with an old college buddy of mine who incessantly believes that Evolution is wrong. He kept arguing the same point, which was completely misguided and wrong, but he's a friend of mine. I would never, ever insult him because he's my friend. All I feel I can do is point him to the facts and let him run. To his credit, he never insulted me, either. It was a very informative, open discussion. In the end nothing changed: he didn't change his mind, I didn't change mine.

But what did happen is that I can see more from where he's coming from and understand him better. In his case, he told me that he was going to write a blog about how Evolution was wrong, but with what I explained to him, he changed his mind and is re-checking his facts.

That could never come from throwing insults. So the same courtesy I give my friend, I try to give to everyone that I talk about here. I don't always succeed, I admit, and I'm sorry for that. Sometimes my emotions do get the better of me. I'm human.

But insulting someone, even a subtle one, poisons the debate. Humor, sarcasm, gentle kidding, that's fine. But insulting someone doesn't prove a point is correct or intelligent. It's an emotional barb. That's all.

....You are so stupid to ask that question!!!!

(The last line was a joke!! Honest!!)

dafydd · 15th March 2010, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mirrorglass

I'm not entirely sure how broadly you are interpreting "insult" here, but I'll have a go.

I think sarcastic comments can be insulting, but also very valuable to discussion, since they can help people find flaws in their own arguments. Of course, this only works if the goal of the sarcasm is to offer new viewpoints to the argument, not to ridicule the target. I also think eliminating indirect insults, sarcasm and sneering isn't really possible.

As for direct insults, like calling the arguer, for example, an idiot or a nazi, really serves no purpose; it just further alienates the two opposing sides of an argument, making the whole discussion a fight between two sides instead of a common project to further understanding on the subject. This only makes it harder to promote the ideas of critical thinking to those who do not already embrace them, and help alienate people from what "critical thinking" really means.

What do you do if the arguer really is a Nazi?

Mirrorglass · 15th March 2010, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

What do you do if the arguer really is a Nazi?

If the person themselves refers to themselves as a national socialist, then it's not really an insult, although I suppose "nazi" has too much negative weight not to be insulting. Kind of like "baldie" or "bastard"; even if they are accurate, to actually use them is insulting.

I don't think this is a problem anyway. It's not like I usually refer to people by their political stance. If I disagree with the views of someone, I can critisize those views, like saying "I believe the republican ideology is flawed" as opposed to "you damn republican".

Frank Newgent · 15th March 2010, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

What do you do if the arguer really is a Nazi?

I speak to them in German.

bpesta22 · 15th March 2010, 08:05 AM

no one would post on the interwebs without the potential to insult or be offended by someone else's insult.

sgtbaker · 15th March 2010, 08:21 AM

I have to agree with the general opinion of the responses, insults bring the argument from rational to emotional. Though it can be a useful tool in winning an argument (by throwing the opponent off), it does nothing to validate the basis of any claim.

On the other hand, especially with written forms of communication, where it's up to each individual reader to interpret the intended tone, intention can get lost. It wouldn't be unheard of for one to take insult to being told that they lack critical thought in a statement.

Skeptic Ginger · 15th March 2010, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Hello,

Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all:

Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought?

No, and they are an interesting phenomena worth investigating. Why people get angry when they disagree or cannot convince someone of their position is difficult to explain, but all too common.

Mirrorglass · 15th March 2010, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

I have to agree with the general opinion of the responses, insults bring the argument from rational to emotional. Though it can be a useful tool in winning an argument (by throwing the opponent off), it does nothing to validate the basis of any claim.

On the other hand, especially with written forms of communication, where it's up to each individual reader to interpret the intended tone, intention can get lost. It wouldn't be unheard of for one to take insult to being told that they lack critical thought in a statement.

I think it matters a lot how you put it. You can either say "this statement isn't really rational. See, it.." or "you keep posting these irrational statements". They essentially mean the same thing, but are likely to cause different reactions.

paximperium · 15th March 2010, 08:51 AM

I insult people for fun.

sgtbaker · 15th March 2010, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Mirrorglass

I think it matters a lot how you put it. You can either say "this statement isn't really rational. See, it.." or "you keep posting these irrational statements". They essentially mean the same thing, but are likely to cause different reactions.

Oh I do agree; if one really doesn't want to come off sounding insulting, careful choice in words is extremely important. There are times, though, where someone uses a term that to them, seemed uninsulting, but the opposing side read it differently. I see in in message boards, a lot, as well as having been on both sides of that track. Then there are other times where just being told, without a hint of sarcasm, that their statement isn't really rational, and that alone, is enought to feel like a personal attack and end up getting defensive.

Mirrorglass · 15th March 2010, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

Oh I do agree; if one really doesn't want to come off sounding insulting, careful choice in words is extremely important. There are times, though, where someone uses a term that to them, seemed uninsulting, but the opposing side read it differently. I see in in message boards, a lot, as well as having been on both sides of that track. Then there are other times where just being told, without a hint of sarcasm, that their statement isn't really rational, and that alone, is enought to feel like a personal attack and end up getting defensive.

Of course, it's pretty much impossible to argue online without someone being insulted. I guess the best we can do is try not to insult anyone deliberately.

Fnord · 15th March 2010, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

...
Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought?

Yes, and definately so. Ignoring someone is considered an insult by many. Thus when I put someone on my "Ignore" list for making posts that are full of fallacious reasoning, false data, and poor spelling and grammar, I am making the statement that I will accept only those posts that are well, reasoned, valid, and posted by someone that knows how to use a spelling checker. In this, there is some benefit in that I am less likely to post in response to some wooist. Such people seem more concerned with being believed than with actually telling the truth.

Hokulele · 15th March 2010, 09:20 AM

The main problem is, an insult is in the eye of the insultee. For some people, any contradiction is seen as an insult. Any refusal to accept their assertions as true is an insult. Heck, just being happy without holding <your belief here> can be an insult to some people. I would say that a larger part of critical thinking is learning how not to be so quick to take offense at what other people say about what you believe.

Frank Newgent · 15th March 2010, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

I would say that a larger part of critical thinking is learning how not to be so quick to take offense at what other people say about what you believe.

One can always be kind to people about whom one cares nothing.
— Oscar Wilde

quarky · 15th March 2010, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by paximperium

I insult people for fun.

Evidence, you wildebeast.

Dancing David · 15th March 2010, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Frank Newgent

If people only knew as much about crtitical thinking as the OP they'd never read this thread.

Huh?

I am giving a particular poster a space to express certain ideas, they however seemed to have moved on.

Trent Wray · 15th March 2010, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

The main problem is, an insult is in the eye of the insultee. For some people, any contradiction is seen as an insult. Any refusal to accept their assertions as true is an insult. Heck, just being happy without holding <your belief here> can be an insult to some people. I would say that a larger part of critical thinking is learning how not to be so quick to take offense at what other people say about what you believe.

Just what exactly are you trying to say? I knew it !!!

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Huh?

I am giving a particular poster a space to express certain ideas, they however seemed to have moved on.

Frank Newgent · 15th March 2010, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Originally Posted by Frank Newgent

If people only knew as much about crtitical thinking as the OP they'd never read this thread.

Huh?

I am giving a particular poster a space to express certain ideas, they however seemed to have moved on.

Little can withstand being thought of

RSLancastr · 15th March 2010, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Hello,

Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought?

I have tried in my Stop sites to avoid much of the name-calling and sarcasm found on many skeptical sites. I try instead to present the facts, and let the reader come to their own conclusion. I think that the snide/sarcastic approach works best (if at all) when addressing a skeptical audience. But when addressing an audience of believers and fence-sitters, it alienates them, and a straightforward, fact-based approach is far more likely to be heard and considered.

Hawk one · 15th March 2010, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by RSLancastr

I have tried in my Stop sites to avoid much of the name-calling and sarcasm found on many skeptical sites. I try instead to present the facts, and let the reader come to their own conclusion. I think that the snide/sarcastic approach works best (if at all) when addressing a skeptical audience. But when addressing an audience of believers and fence-sitters, it alienates them, and a straightforward, fact-based approach is far more likely to be heard and considered.

Yes, but you're a bloody saint, Rob.

(I'll leave it as an exersice to the reader to determine whether I'm making a backhanded compliment (hey, calling an atheist a saint might be insulting), a backhanded insult, or just plainly messing around with Rob for good fun.)

Wowbagger · 15th March 2010, 10:56 AM

In my experience as a professional Insulter of the Universe, I have not found insults to further any goals of critical thinking.

If you want to further critical thinking, the most effective strategy is to be diplomatic. Sometimes you can be sarcastic, once you develop a rapport with someone. But, when in doubt, try to be factual yet friendly.

Fnord · 15th March 2010, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

The main problem is, an insult is in the eye of the insultee. For some people, any contradiction is seen as an insult. Any refusal to accept their assertions as true is an insult. Heck, just being happy without holding <your belief here> can be an insult to some people. I would say that a larger part of critical thinking is learning how not to be so quick to take offense at what other people say about what you believe.

So, you think I'm fat, is that it?

paximperium · 15th March 2010, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

Evidence, you wildebeast.

Wildebeast? Why thank you, growl

Pure Argent · 15th March 2010, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

So, you think I'm fat, is that it?

Yes.

remirol · 15th March 2010, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

Yes.

Don't listen to PA. That's just the scale talking.

Dancing David · 15th March 2010, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

So, you think I'm fat, is that it?

Maybe it is those jeans?

14th March 2010, 07:01 AM	#1
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,702	Insults and critical thinking. Hello, Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all: Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

14th March 2010, 07:32 AM	#3
Igopogo Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 270	Good question, as I find the use of insults often derails what could have otherwise been a useful discussion around here. You have to assume you're right to entitle yourself to put down someone else, so I would say that insults mainly get in the way of critical thought. I think it can be considered part of the logical fallacy called "poisoning the well".
Igopogo Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 270

14th March 2010, 09:25 AM	#4
!Kaggen Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Town Posts: 3,437	Originally Posted by Dancing David Hello, Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all: Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought? I don't think you can separate psychology from critical thinking. Insults reveal the motives (emotional or willful) behind thoughts and if anything pointing this out can only lead to more critical thought.
	__________________ "Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/

14th March 2010, 11:37 AM	#8
JenseitsDavon Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Location: Seattle . . . ish Posts: 217	Good response, moron. (It's a joke, it's a joke!)
	__________________ "With his new book, '<insert woo book>', <insert woo> strode bravely into the Forest of Science to do battle with the dragons whose names are Logic, Critical Thinking, and Reason. It is with greatest regret I inform you, ladies and gentleman, that the dragons won."

14th March 2010, 01:21 PM	#10
remirol Senior Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Etlanna, Jawja Posts: 7,549	Originally Posted by Dancing David Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought? Strictly reading your question, the answer must be 'no'. An insult is an attempt to introduce emotion into a discussion, and critical thinking is about logic, not emotion. While critical thinking must acknowledge that people are inherently irrational and emotional, and take this into account during any discussion regarding people's behavior, etc., an insult does nothing to support either side of the argument; it is no more than wasted words. Now... that said, there is certainly a purpose for insults, mockery, and derision. All of these can be excellent persuasive tools, wielded correctly and by one competent in their use. But they have no bearing on the validity of the wielder's argument; their sole purpose is to bring onlookers over to the wielder's side (or provoke them into seriously considering the wielder's position) via an appeal to emotion. Plus, so's yer mom.
	__________________ Roguelike player? Info: http://sporkhack.com -- Public server: telnet://sporkhack.com -- The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will walk carefully. -- old Russian proverb

14th March 2010, 07:23 AM	#2
Mirrorglass Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Northern Europe Posts: 3,474	I'm not entirely sure how broadly you are interpreting "insult" here, but I'll have a go. I think sarcastic comments can be insulting, but also very valuable to discussion, since they can help people find flaws in their own arguments. Of course, this only works if the goal of the sarcasm is to offer new viewpoints to the argument, not to ridicule the target. I also think eliminating indirect insults, sarcasm and sneering isn't really possible. As for direct insults, like calling the arguer, for example, an idiot or a nazi, really serves no purpose; it just further alienates the two opposing sides of an argument, making the whole discussion a fight between two sides instead of a common project to further understanding on the subject. This only makes it harder to promote the ideas of critical thinking to those who do not already embrace them, and help alienate people from what "critical thinking" really means.

14th March 2010, 10:29 AM	#5
Manopolus Metaphorical Anomaly Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Linn, Kansas (a.k.a. Dead center of Nowhere) Posts: 3,028	I would say that insults can only promote critical thought in the form of humor. When it is truly more humorous than insulting, it actually defuses a situation that might otherwise become chronically divisive.

14th March 2010, 10:32 AM	#6
Trent Wray I Will Not Impregnate You Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 4,562	Good thread

14th March 2010, 11:24 AM	#7
EventHorizon Atheist Tergiversator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,840	Originally Posted by trentwray Good thread I think the proper response should have been, "Good thread, moron".

14th March 2010, 12:44 PM	#9
Trent Wray I Will Not Impregnate You Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 4,562	Originally Posted by EventHorizon I think the proper response should have been, "Good thread, moron". I was waiting for my insult wingman ...

14th March 2010, 01:25 PM	#11
remirol Senior Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Etlanna, Jawja Posts: 7,549	Originally Posted by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/insulting in·sult (n-slt)v. in·sult·ed, in·sult·ing, in·sults v.tr.1. a. To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness. b. To affront or demean Think of it this way, if it helps. Facts can do none of the above things. Critical thinking and conclusions derived thereof must be solely based on the facts. The presentation of those facts can be in an insulting manner, but the presence or absence of the insult changes the facts not at all. ...It can, however, change whether anyone hearing those facts chooses to listen.
	__________________ Roguelike player? Info: http://sporkhack.com -- Public server: telnet://sporkhack.com -- The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will walk carefully. -- old Russian proverb

14th March 2010, 02:20 PM	#12
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by Dancing David Hello, Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all: Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought? No.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

14th March 2010, 03:33 PM	#13
The Man Scourge, of the supernatural Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY Posts: 7,518	Originally Posted by Dancing David Hello, Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all: Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought? Insulting yourself to some degree perhaps can show that you are thinking critically about your own opinions and assertion. Wait, if I wasn’t such a blithering idiot I would have never proposed such a ridiculous and baseless claim. However, just outright insulting someone else without any other intent or purpose, as already noted by some of the other morons on this thread, basically just doesn’t have any other intent or purpose. The problem also noted by some other Bozo here is the emotional response. Some people can’t detach themselves from an emotional response to a perceived or even intended insult and also perhaps infer just a perceived insult must be some emotional response on the part of others. To some just questioning them or their notions is taken as an insult and I’m seriously offended that you would even think to malign my integrity by inferring that my insults somehow need to involve your crazy and outlandish “critical thought”.
	__________________ "Not a seat but a springboard” (1942 Winston Churchill) "As he who, seeking asses, found a kingdom" (1671 Milton "Paradise Regained") "for it seem'd A void was made in nature, all her bonds Crack'd; and I saw the flaring atom-streams And torrents of her myriad universe, Ruining along the illimitable inane, Fly on to clash together again, and make Another and another frame of things For ever." (1868 Tennyson "Lucretius")

15th March 2010, 07:19 AM	#14
Frank Newgent Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,675	If people only knew as much about crtitical thinking as the OP they'd never read this thread.
	__________________ Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski

15th March 2010, 07:51 AM	#15
JFrankA Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 4,054	Originally Posted by Dancing David Hello, Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all: Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought? I'd say no as well. I try, though I don't always succeed, to not insult the other side. In my opinion, insulting does nothing to further the discussion. Once you throw an insult to someone, (a serious one, not a playful one), you've introduced direct, personal emotion in the debate. The insult clouds the judgment of the receiver and only makes her or him more determined to stand their ground. It's the old "more flies with honey" thing. Often, in my arguments, I use sarcasm, such as taking people's own words and reflecting it back to using my viewpoint, but that's not an insult, it's an illustration of how someone's opinion may work both ways. Attacking the opinion or debate is fine. I've had long discussions with an old college buddy of mine who incessantly believes that Evolution is wrong. He kept arguing the same point, which was completely misguided and wrong, but he's a friend of mine. I would never, ever insult him because he's my friend. All I feel I can do is point him to the facts and let him run. To his credit, he never insulted me, either. It was a very informative, open discussion. In the end nothing changed: he didn't change his mind, I didn't change mine. But what did happen is that I can see more from where he's coming from and understand him better. In his case, he told me that he was going to write a blog about how Evolution was wrong, but with what I explained to him, he changed his mind and is re-checking his facts. That could never come from throwing insults. So the same courtesy I give my friend, I try to give to everyone that I talk about here. I don't always succeed, I admit, and I'm sorry for that. Sometimes my emotions do get the better of me. I'm human. But insulting someone, even a subtle one, poisons the debate. Humor, sarcasm, gentle kidding, that's fine. But insulting someone doesn't prove a point is correct or intelligent. It's an emotional barb. That's all. ....You are so stupid to ask that question!!!! (The last line was a joke!! Honest!!)
	__________________ "How perverted you are.", "I will bite you like a serpent. The poison will slowly kill your sophism..." - SnakeTongue "More truth is in a single issue of Mad than a year of Time." - Gord in Toronto "Oh, and one more thing: For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the sheltered will never know." - Wise man in Sucker Punch

15th March 2010, 07:53 AM	#16
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,448	Originally Posted by Mirrorglass I'm not entirely sure how broadly you are interpreting "insult" here, but I'll have a go. I think sarcastic comments can be insulting, but also very valuable to discussion, since they can help people find flaws in their own arguments. Of course, this only works if the goal of the sarcasm is to offer new viewpoints to the argument, not to ridicule the target. I also think eliminating indirect insults, sarcasm and sneering isn't really possible. As for direct insults, like calling the arguer, for example, an idiot or a nazi, really serves no purpose; it just further alienates the two opposing sides of an argument, making the whole discussion a fight between two sides instead of a common project to further understanding on the subject. This only makes it harder to promote the ideas of critical thinking to those who do not already embrace them, and help alienate people from what "critical thinking" really means. What do you do if the arguer really is a Nazi?

15th March 2010, 08:01 AM	#17
Mirrorglass Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Northern Europe Posts: 3,474	Originally Posted by dafydd What do you do if the arguer really is a Nazi? If the person themselves refers to themselves as a national socialist, then it's not really an insult, although I suppose "nazi" has too much negative weight not to be insulting. Kind of like "baldie" or "bastard"; even if they are accurate, to actually use them is insulting. I don't think this is a problem anyway. It's not like I usually refer to people by their political stance. If I disagree with the views of someone, I can critisize those views, like saying "I believe the republican ideology is flawed" as opposed to "you damn republican".

15th March 2010, 08:04 AM	#18
Frank Newgent Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,675	Originally Posted by dafydd What do you do if the arguer really is a Nazi? I speak to them in German.
	__________________ Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski

15th March 2010, 08:05 AM	#19
bpesta22 Cereal Killer Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 4,648	no one would post on the interwebs without the potential to insult or be offended by someone else's insult.
bpesta22 Cereal Killer Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 4,648	__________________ Manifest thy bosoms or decamp.

15th March 2010, 08:21 AM	#20
sgtbaker Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,547	I have to agree with the general opinion of the responses, insults bring the argument from rational to emotional. Though it can be a useful tool in winning an argument (by throwing the opponent off), it does nothing to validate the basis of any claim. On the other hand, especially with written forms of communication, where it's up to each individual reader to interpret the intended tone, intention can get lost. It wouldn't be unheard of for one to take insult to being told that they lack critical thought in a statement.
sgtbaker Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,547

15th March 2010, 08:41 AM	#21
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,536	Originally Posted by Dancing David Hello, Without discussing forum management issues (i.e. Rule 12) I repeat a question I asked earlier, addessed to all: Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought? No, and they are an interesting phenomena worth investigating. Why people get angry when they disagree or cannot convince someone of their position is difficult to explain, but all too common.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

15th March 2010, 08:45 AM	#22
Mirrorglass Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Northern Europe Posts: 3,474	Originally Posted by sgtbaker I have to agree with the general opinion of the responses, insults bring the argument from rational to emotional. Though it can be a useful tool in winning an argument (by throwing the opponent off), it does nothing to validate the basis of any claim. On the other hand, especially with written forms of communication, where it's up to each individual reader to interpret the intended tone, intention can get lost. It wouldn't be unheard of for one to take insult to being told that they lack critical thought in a statement. I think it matters a lot how you put it. You can either say "this statement isn't really rational. See, it.." or "you keep posting these irrational statements". They essentially mean the same thing, but are likely to cause different reactions.

15th March 2010, 08:51 AM	#23
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,727	I insult people for fun.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

15th March 2010, 08:51 AM	#24
sgtbaker Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,547	Originally Posted by Mirrorglass I think it matters a lot how you put it. You can either say "this statement isn't really rational. See, it.." or "you keep posting these irrational statements". They essentially mean the same thing, but are likely to cause different reactions. Oh I do agree; if one really doesn't want to come off sounding insulting, careful choice in words is extremely important. There are times, though, where someone uses a term that to them, seemed uninsulting, but the opposing side read it differently. I see in in message boards, a lot, as well as having been on both sides of that track. Then there are other times where just being told, without a hint of sarcasm, that their statement isn't really rational, and that alone, is enought to feel like a personal attack and end up getting defensive.
sgtbaker Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,547

15th March 2010, 09:04 AM	#25
Mirrorglass Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Northern Europe Posts: 3,474	Originally Posted by sgtbaker Oh I do agree; if one really doesn't want to come off sounding insulting, careful choice in words is extremely important. There are times, though, where someone uses a term that to them, seemed uninsulting, but the opposing side read it differently. I see in in message boards, a lot, as well as having been on both sides of that track. Then there are other times where just being told, without a hint of sarcasm, that their statement isn't really rational, and that alone, is enought to feel like a personal attack and end up getting defensive. Of course, it's pretty much impossible to argue online without someone being insulted. I guess the best we can do is try not to insult anyone deliberately.

15th March 2010, 09:17 AM	#26
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by Dancing David ... Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought? Yes, and definately so. Ignoring someone is considered an insult by many. Thus when I put someone on my "Ignore" list for making posts that are full of fallacious reasoning, false data, and poor spelling and grammar, I am making the statement that I will accept only those posts that are well, reasoned, valid, and posted by someone that knows how to use a spelling checker. In this, there is some benefit in that I am less likely to post in response to some wooist. Such people seem more concerned with being believed than with actually telling the truth.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

15th March 2010, 09:20 AM	#27
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,265	The main problem is, an insult is in the eye of the insultee. For some people, any contradiction is seen as an insult. Any refusal to accept their assertions as true is an insult. Heck, just being happy without holding <your belief here> can be an insult to some people. I would say that a larger part of critical thinking is learning how not to be so quick to take offense at what other people say about what you believe.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

15th March 2010, 09:29 AM	#28
Frank Newgent Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,675	Originally Posted by Hokulele I would say that a larger part of critical thinking is learning how not to be so quick to take offense at what other people say about what you believe. One can always be kind to people about whom one cares nothing. — Oscar Wilde
	__________________ Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski

15th March 2010, 09:56 AM	#29
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Originally Posted by paximperium I insult people for fun. Evidence, you wildebeast.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

15th March 2010, 10:03 AM	#30
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,702	Originally Posted by Frank Newgent If people only knew as much about crtitical thinking as the OP they'd never read this thread. Huh? I am giving a particular poster a space to express certain ideas, they however seemed to have moved on.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

15th March 2010, 10:09 AM	#31
Trent Wray I Will Not Impregnate You Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 4,562	Originally Posted by Hokulele The main problem is, an insult is in the eye of the insultee. For some people, any contradiction is seen as an insult. Any refusal to accept their assertions as true is an insult. Heck, just being happy without holding <your belief here> can be an insult to some people. I would say that a larger part of critical thinking is learning how not to be so quick to take offense at what other people say about what you believe. Just what exactly are you trying to say? I knew it !!! Originally Posted by Dancing David Huh? I am giving a particular poster a space to express certain ideas, they however seemed to have moved on.

15th March 2010, 10:10 AM	#32
Frank Newgent Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,675	Originally Posted by Dancing David Originally Posted by Frank Newgent If people only knew as much about crtitical thinking as the OP they'd never read this thread. Huh? I am giving a particular poster a space to express certain ideas, they however seemed to have moved on. Little can withstand being thought of
	__________________ Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski

15th March 2010, 10:17 AM	#33
RSLancastr www.StopSylvia.com Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 15,533	Originally Posted by Dancing David Hello, Can insults be used to further the goal of critical thinking, are they beneficial in the expression of critical thought? I have tried in my Stop sites to avoid much of the name-calling and sarcasm found on many skeptical sites. I try instead to present the facts, and let the reader come to their own conclusion. I think that the snide/sarcastic approach works best (if at all) when addressing a skeptical audience. But when addressing an audience of believers and fence-sitters, it alienates them, and a straightforward, fact-based approach is far more likely to be heard and considered.
	__________________ Who is "Kaz?" Read about her at www.StopKaz.com. Curious about Sylvia Browne? Read about her at www.StopSylvia.com. Ever wonder "What's the Harm?" with psychics, alternative medicine, etc?

15th March 2010, 10:22 AM	#34
Hawk one Emperor of the Internet Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Right below The Hat. Posts: 12,845	Originally Posted by RSLancastr I have tried in my Stop sites to avoid much of the name-calling and sarcasm found on many skeptical sites. I try instead to present the facts, and let the reader come to their own conclusion. I think that the snide/sarcastic approach works best (if at all) when addressing a skeptical audience. But when addressing an audience of believers and fence-sitters, it alienates them, and a straightforward, fact-based approach is far more likely to be heard and considered. Yes, but you're a bloody saint, Rob. (I'll leave it as an exersice to the reader to determine whether I'm making a backhanded compliment (hey, calling an atheist a saint might be insulting), a backhanded insult, or just plainly messing around with Rob for good fun.)
	__________________ Boynott everything! Roxane - My evil feeds on your hatred. I am like a big evil thing that feasts on hatred and probably also fear. Nom nom. Roxane is a ninja star without me.

15th March 2010, 10:56 AM	#35
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 13,518	In my experience as a professional Insulter of the Universe, I have not found insults to further any goals of critical thinking. If you want to further critical thinking, the most effective strategy is to be diplomatic. Sometimes you can be sarcastic, once you develop a rapport with someone. But, when in doubt, try to be factual yet friendly.
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!