Does Mars have diamonds?

Cainkane1 · 22nd March 2010, 06:55 AM

Since coal is an organic substance and diamonds are made from coal does that mean that since life didn't develope on mars that no gems exist there?

MG1962 · 22nd March 2010, 07:11 AM

It probably does. And might even have more than Earth. Diamonds require stable points of heat and pressure to form. And although related to coal in terms of source material, they dont need organic carbon to form

wendyinthewind · 22nd March 2010, 07:34 AM

Does Mars have ice ages like we have on earth?

Dr.Sid · 22nd March 2010, 07:43 AM

Where does the information that 'diamonds are from coal' come from ? AFAIK they do not. They are formed in depths where coal does not exist. Life does not create carbon, it only transforms it.

shadron · 22nd March 2010, 07:43 AM

Mars' geology has been static for at least a couple of billion years. Without a hot core and mantle, the last gasp of tectonics on Mars was the four major volcanoes and meteor events. Without the geological processes, elements are likely rather uniformly distributed through the crust and you'll have problems finding "deposits" of anything besides water and CO2, I would think.

Also, carbon is not the only gemstone; there's aluminum oxide and various sorts of silicon oxide, and others. There may be some pockets of such around the volcanoes, but not much anywhere else.

There are blueberries: http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mar...-desk-1024.jpg

ponderingturtle · 22nd March 2010, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Since coal is an organic substance and diamonds are made from coal does that mean that since life didn't develope on mars that no gems exist there?

Do diamonds come from coal? I know they need to have carbon get into the mantel and then rise up slowly so it can crystallize properly but does it need to be coal, or would other carbon carrying materials work?

Correa Neto · 22nd March 2010, 10:05 AM

Diamonds are mostly C. Carbon, by itself, does not need to be linked to "life as we know it Jim". There are sources of carbon in Earth's mantle, for example. And here's a key point- the mantle. Diamonds are formed and stable at pressure/temperature conditions found at the mantle. Diamonds are generated at the mantle and then later brought to Earth's surface by "taking a ride" at rare types of magmas which rise from the mantle. Basically diamond crystals are removed from their original "host rock" as magma passes through. In Earth, these magmatic rocks (kimberlites and lamproites) are found at places where continental crust is thick and has been stable for hundreds of million years.

So, at least in theory, diamonds could have been formed in Mars' depths and we know there are volcanoes there. Some of these magmas may have originated deep enough and crossed rocks with diamond. It is possible that some diamonds may be at the vents or redistributed in placers through the surface. But its whole lot of "mays" and "maybes". If this actually happened and how much diamonds are there (I would guess not much), we will only know after Mars geology is better understood. This put, I am not aware of published reports on volcanic vents on Mars which can be interpreted as kimberlite pipes, but dikes, who knows?

Linkies, related and semi-related:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture05692.html
http://ammin.geoscienceworld.org/cgi...act/91/10/1461
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Kimberlite
http://www.minsocam.org/MSA/AmMin/TO...y_p1461_06.pdf
http://bowfell.geol.ucl.ac.uk/~lidun...rianjones2.pdf

ben m · 22nd March 2010, 11:55 AM

According to Wikipedia:

"Both the location and origin of kimberlitic magmas are areas of contention. Their extreme enrichment and geochemistry has led to a large amount of speculation about their origin, with models placing their source within the sub-continental lithospheric mantle (SCLM) or even as deep as the transition zone. The mechanism of enrichment has also been the topic of interest with models including partial melting, assimilation of subducted sediment or derivation from a primary magma source."

I'm reading that last statement as: "some people think that diamond-forming magma is enriched in carbon because it was formed from subducted coal or limestone". If that is indeed how it works, it sounds unlikely that there would be diamonds on Mars. No life forms to concentrate lots of solid carbon (is there another way to do it? Travertine?) and no subduction to turn these carbon sources back into magma.

geni · 22nd March 2010, 11:59 AM

There is carbon on mars and there is heat and pressure. So chemistry says yes there will be diamonds. How many and where is a problem for the areologists.

ponderingturtle · 22nd March 2010, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by ben m

According to Wikipedia:

"Both the location and origin of kimberlitic magmas are areas of contention. Their extreme enrichment and geochemistry has led to a large amount of speculation about their origin, with models placing their source within the sub-continental lithospheric mantle (SCLM) or even as deep as the transition zone. The mechanism of enrichment has also been the topic of interest with models including partial melting, assimilation of subducted sediment or derivation from a primary magma source."

I'm reading that last statement as: "some people think that diamond-forming magma is enriched in carbon because it was formed from subducted coal or limestone". If that is indeed how it works, it sounds unlikely that there would be diamonds on Mars. No life forms to concentrate lots of solid carbon (is there another way to do it? Travertine?) and no subduction to turn these carbon sources back into magma.

Are all carbon bearing rocks associated with life?

ben m · 22nd March 2010, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Are all carbon bearing rocks associated with life?

I'm not an expert at all. I had thought that most carbon-bearing rock on Earth was either limestone or some metamorphic limestone product, but on further reading this may not be correct.

Correa Neto · 22nd March 2010, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by ben m

According to Wikipedia:

"Both the location and origin of kimberlitic magmas are areas of contention. Their extreme enrichment and geochemistry has led to a large amount of speculation about their origin, with models placing their source within the sub-continental lithospheric mantle (SCLM) or even as deep as the transition zone. The mechanism of enrichment has also been the topic of interest with models including partial melting, assimilation of subducted sediment or derivation from a primary magma source."

I'm reading that last statement as: "some people think that diamond-forming magma is enriched in carbon because it was formed from subducted coal or limestone". If that is indeed how it works, it sounds unlikely that there would be diamonds on Mars. No life forms to concentrate lots of solid carbon (is there another way to do it? Travertine?) and no subduction to turn these carbon sources back into magma.

Not exactly; "primary magma source" means no lifeforms involved. In this case, its carbon from the mantle itself, gathered in Earth's accretion phase. Concentration within the mantle is supposed to be due to metassomatic processes not yet fully understood in the mantle (as if we actually understood the shallower ones).

As for limestone, not all limestone is related to lifeforms such as corals and cyanobacteria; limestone can be a purely chemical precipitate (shallow water bodies in hot climate) or the product of hydrothermal activity (travertine, for example). Regarding coal, remember it comes from (terrestrial) plants. Earliest land plants come from the Silurian; diamonds of such an origin would be younger. We know some diamonds may be 2.9 to 4.1 Ga old, what would preclude this origin. But its true that some old nanodiamonds may hint to very early lifeforms, before the Hadean.

Related linkies:
http://www.uni-muenster.de/GeoPalaeo...ot/seite3.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture01884.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-diamonds.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...01825d51997b74
http://petrology.oxfordjournals.org/...tract/egi097v1

shadron · 22nd March 2010, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Are all carbon bearing rocks associated with life?

Not necessarily; for example, calcium carbonate (the mineral calcite, or in a rock, limestone) is fairly rich in carbon, and is thought to be the largest stable sink of carbon in the lithosphere. It is thought, for example, that the exposure of limestone in the raising of the Appalacians may have been responsible for an Ordovician ice age (http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...s-triggered-an).

The presence of black coloration in a rock layer is usually a sign of abundant life in the laying-down of that layer.

Starthinker · 22nd March 2010, 03:06 PM

Forget Mars, this is the diamond to have: http://www.universetoday.com/2004/02...mond-in-space/

MG1962 · 22nd March 2010, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Starthinker

Forget Mars, this is the diamond to have: http://www.universetoday.com/2004/02...mond-in-space/

That is simply mind blowing. I am not sure what impresses me more - A diamond the size of a star or the fact astronomers spotted it from 50 light years away

Cainkane1 · 23rd March 2010, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Where does the information that 'diamonds are from coal' come from ? AFAIK they do not. They are formed in depths where coal does not exist. Life does not create carbon, it only transforms it.

Thanks for the correction. I thought as much.

22nd March 2010, 06:55 AM	#1
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Does Mars have diamonds? Since coal is an organic substance and diamonds are made from coal does that mean that since life didn't develope on mars that no gems exist there?
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

22nd March 2010, 07:34 AM	#3
wendyinthewind Human Salad Sandwich Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Natural Viagraland Posts: 3,605	Does Mars have ice ages like we have on earth?
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22nd March 2010, 07:43 AM	#4
Dr.Sid Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 398	Where does the information that 'diamonds are from coal' come from ? AFAIK they do not. They are formed in depths where coal does not exist. Life does not create carbon, it only transforms it.
Dr.Sid Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 398

22nd March 2010, 07:43 AM	#5
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,719	Mars' geology has been static for at least a couple of billion years. Without a hot core and mantle, the last gasp of tectonics on Mars was the four major volcanoes and meteor events. Without the geological processes, elements are likely rather uniformly distributed through the crust and you'll have problems finding "deposits" of anything besides water and CO2, I would think. Also, carbon is not the only gemstone; there's aluminum oxide and various sorts of silicon oxide, and others. There may be some pockets of such around the volcanoes, but not much anywhere else. There are blueberries: http://www.spacedaily.com/images/mar...-desk-1024.jpg
	Last edited by shadron; 22nd March 2010 at 07:47 AM.

22nd March 2010, 08:55 AM	#6
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,433	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Since coal is an organic substance and diamonds are made from coal does that mean that since life didn't develope on mars that no gems exist there? Do diamonds come from coal? I know they need to have carbon get into the mantel and then rise up slowly so it can crystallize properly but does it need to be coal, or would other carbon carrying materials work?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

22nd March 2010, 07:11 AM	#2
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	It probably does. And might even have more than Earth. Diamonds require stable points of heat and pressure to form. And although related to coal in terms of source material, they dont need organic carbon to form

22nd March 2010, 10:05 AM	#7
Correa Neto Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hunting rocks somewhere in Brazil Posts: 7,183	Diamonds are mostly C. Carbon, by itself, does not need to be linked to "life as we know it Jim". There are sources of carbon in Earth's mantle, for example. And here's a key point- the mantle. Diamonds are formed and stable at pressure/temperature conditions found at the mantle. Diamonds are generated at the mantle and then later brought to Earth's surface by "taking a ride" at rare types of magmas which rise from the mantle. Basically diamond crystals are removed from their original "host rock" as magma passes through. In Earth, these magmatic rocks (kimberlites and lamproites) are found at places where continental crust is thick and has been stable for hundreds of million years. So, at least in theory, diamonds could have been formed in Mars' depths and we know there are volcanoes there. Some of these magmas may have originated deep enough and crossed rocks with diamond. It is possible that some diamonds may be at the vents or redistributed in placers through the surface. But its whole lot of "mays" and "maybes". If this actually happened and how much diamonds are there (I would guess not much), we will only know after Mars geology is better understood. This put, I am not aware of published reports on volcanic vents on Mars which can be interpreted as kimberlite pipes, but dikes, who knows? Linkies, related and semi-related: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture05692.html http://ammin.geoscienceworld.org/cgi...act/91/10/1461 http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Kimberlite http://www.minsocam.org/MSA/AmMin/TO...y_p1461_06.pdf http://bowfell.geol.ucl.ac.uk/~lidun...rianjones2.pdf
	__________________ Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…

22nd March 2010, 11:55 AM	#8
ben m Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,657	According to Wikipedia: "Both the location and origin of kimberlitic magmas are areas of contention. Their extreme enrichment and geochemistry has led to a large amount of speculation about their origin, with models placing their source within the sub-continental lithospheric mantle (SCLM) or even as deep as the transition zone. The mechanism of enrichment has also been the topic of interest with models including partial melting, assimilation of subducted sediment or derivation from a primary magma source." I'm reading that last statement as: "some people think that diamond-forming magma is enriched in carbon because it was formed from subducted coal or limestone". If that is indeed how it works, it sounds unlikely that there would be diamonds on Mars. No life forms to concentrate lots of solid carbon (is there another way to do it? Travertine?) and no subduction to turn these carbon sources back into magma.
ben m Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,657

22nd March 2010, 11:59 AM	#9
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,575	There is carbon on mars and there is heat and pressure. So chemistry says yes there will be diamonds. How many and where is a problem for the areologists.

22nd March 2010, 11:59 AM	#10
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,433	Originally Posted by ben m According to Wikipedia: "Both the location and origin of kimberlitic magmas are areas of contention. Their extreme enrichment and geochemistry has led to a large amount of speculation about their origin, with models placing their source within the sub-continental lithospheric mantle (SCLM) or even as deep as the transition zone. The mechanism of enrichment has also been the topic of interest with models including partial melting, assimilation of subducted sediment or derivation from a primary magma source." I'm reading that last statement as: "some people think that diamond-forming magma is enriched in carbon because it was formed from subducted coal or limestone". If that is indeed how it works, it sounds unlikely that there would be diamonds on Mars. No life forms to concentrate lots of solid carbon (is there another way to do it? Travertine?) and no subduction to turn these carbon sources back into magma. Are all carbon bearing rocks associated with life?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

22nd March 2010, 12:44 PM	#11
ben m Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,657	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Are all carbon bearing rocks associated with life? I'm not an expert at all. I had thought that most carbon-bearing rock on Earth was either limestone or some metamorphic limestone product, but on further reading this may not be correct.
ben m Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,657

22nd March 2010, 01:02 PM	#12
Correa Neto Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hunting rocks somewhere in Brazil Posts: 7,183	Originally Posted by ben m According to Wikipedia: "Both the location and origin of kimberlitic magmas are areas of contention. Their extreme enrichment and geochemistry has led to a large amount of speculation about their origin, with models placing their source within the sub-continental lithospheric mantle (SCLM) or even as deep as the transition zone. The mechanism of enrichment has also been the topic of interest with models including partial melting, assimilation of subducted sediment or derivation from a primary magma source." I'm reading that last statement as: "some people think that diamond-forming magma is enriched in carbon because it was formed from subducted coal or limestone". If that is indeed how it works, it sounds unlikely that there would be diamonds on Mars. No life forms to concentrate lots of solid carbon (is there another way to do it? Travertine?) and no subduction to turn these carbon sources back into magma. Not exactly; "primary magma source" means no lifeforms involved. In this case, its carbon from the mantle itself, gathered in Earth's accretion phase. Concentration within the mantle is supposed to be due to metassomatic processes not yet fully understood in the mantle (as if we actually understood the shallower ones). As for limestone, not all limestone is related to lifeforms such as corals and cyanobacteria; limestone can be a purely chemical precipitate (shallow water bodies in hot climate) or the product of hydrothermal activity (travertine, for example). Regarding coal, remember it comes from (terrestrial) plants. Earliest land plants come from the Silurian; diamonds of such an origin would be younger. We know some diamonds may be 2.9 to 4.1 Ga old, what would preclude this origin. But its true that some old nanodiamonds may hint to very early lifeforms, before the Hadean. Related linkies: http://www.uni-muenster.de/GeoPalaeo...ot/seite3.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture01884.html http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-diamonds.html http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...01825d51997b74 http://petrology.oxfordjournals.org/...tract/egi097v1
	__________________ Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…

22nd March 2010, 01:03 PM	#13
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,719	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Are all carbon bearing rocks associated with life? Not necessarily; for example, calcium carbonate (the mineral calcite, or in a rock, limestone) is fairly rich in carbon, and is thought to be the largest stable sink of carbon in the lithosphere. It is thought, for example, that the exposure of limestone in the raising of the Appalacians may have been responsible for an Ordovician ice age (http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...s-triggered-an). The presence of black coloration in a rock layer is usually a sign of abundant life in the laying-down of that layer.

22nd March 2010, 03:06 PM	#14
Starthinker Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 5,014	Forget Mars, this is the diamond to have: http://www.universetoday.com/2004/02...mond-in-space/
	__________________ \|¦¦\|¦ \|¦\|\|\|\|¦\|\|\|¦\|\|¦¦\|¦\|\|\|\|\|\|\|¦\|¦¦¦¦\|¦¦¦¦\|\|¦\|¦\|¦¦\|¦ \|¦¦\|¦ He who doubts victory has already lost the battle. Below the navel there is neither religion nor truth.

22nd March 2010, 09:53 PM	#15
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Starthinker Forget Mars, this is the diamond to have: http://www.universetoday.com/2004/02...mond-in-space/ That is simply mind blowing. I am not sure what impresses me more - A diamond the size of a star or the fact astronomers spotted it from 50 light years away

23rd March 2010, 05:32 AM	#16
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Where does the information that 'diamonds are from coal' come from ? AFAIK they do not. They are formed in depths where coal does not exist. Life does not create carbon, it only transforms it. Thanks for the correction. I thought as much.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.